14:58:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-rdf-wg-irc ←
14:58:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:58:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
14:58:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes ←
14:58:20 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:20 <trackbot> Date: 24 April 2013
14:59:32 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started ←
14:59:41 <Zakim> +GavinC
Zakim IRC Bot: +GavinC ←
15:00:39 <Zakim> +Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus ←
15:00:43 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:00:58 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
15:00:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, OpenLink_Software ←
15:00:59 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:01:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, TallTed, gavinc, SteveH, yvesr, Arnaud, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, manu, manu1, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, TallTed, gavinc, SteveH, yvesr, Arnaud, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, manu, manu1, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot ←
15:01:00 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it ←
15:01:00 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:01:01 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted ←
15:01:26 <Zakim> +pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps ←
15:01:55 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.04.24
Ted Thibodeau: TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.04.24 ←
15:02:16 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
15:02:42 <Zakim> +??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←
15:02:47 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P16
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P16 ←
15:02:48 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it ←
15:03:13 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:03:39 <gavinc> +1 to using Futures
Gavin Carothers: +1 to using Futures ←
15:04:19 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
15:04:32 <gavinc> scribe: gavinc
(Scribe set to Gavin Carothers)
15:04:37 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, [GVoice] is me ←
15:04:37 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP; got it ←
15:04:43 <gavinc> gkellogg: we may need another last call for JSON-LD
Gregg Kellogg: we may need another last call for JSON-LD ←
15:04:55 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
15:04:59 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
15:05:13 <sandro> -1 to that, if we can find any possible alternative.
Sandro Hawke: -1 to that, if we can find any possible alternative. ←
15:05:18 <gavinc> gkellogg: only thing worth spending some time on, is perhaps WHATWG DOM spec as normative reference?
Gregg Kellogg: only thing worth spending some time on, is perhaps WHATWG DOM spec as normative reference? ←
15:05:21 <sandro> (and I think we can)
Sandro Hawke: (and I think we can) ←
15:06:04 <patH> I may have to leave slightly early today.
Patrick Hayes: I may have to leave slightly early today. ←
15:06:09 <gavinc> Topic: Admin
15:06:40 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
15:06:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, TallTed (muted), pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Sandro, ericP, PatH, Arnaud (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, TallTed (muted), pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Sandro, ericP, PatH, Arnaud (muted) ←
15:06:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see zwu2, patH, pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, TallTed, gavinc, SteveH, yvesr, Arnaud, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, manu, manu1, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see zwu2, patH, pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, TallTed, gavinc, SteveH, yvesr, Arnaud, davidwood, gkellogg, cygri, manu, manu1, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot ←
15:07:00 <gavinc> PROPOSED: Accept minutes of the 17 April Telecon, https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-04-17
PROPOSED: Accept minutes of the 17 April Telecon, https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-04-17 ←
15:07:03 <pfps> minutes look fine
Peter Patel-Schneider: minutes look fine ←
15:07:07 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.265.aaaa ←
15:07:13 <gavinc> RESOLVED: Accept minutes of the 17 April Telecon, https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-04-17
RESOLVED: Accept minutes of the 17 April Telecon, https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-04-17 ←
15:07:17 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaaa is me
Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.650.265.aaaa is me ←
15:07:18 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it ←
15:07:24 <gavinc> subtopic: Action item review
15:07:25 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:07:25 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
15:07:51 <gavinc> Guus: Two by pfps, one by patH. Close them
Guus Schreiber: Two by pfps, one by patH. Close them ←
15:08:03 <gavinc> CLOSE ACTION-252
CLOSE ACTION-252 ←
15:08:03 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-252 Propose wording in concepts to reflect blank node semantics changes.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-252 Propose wording in concepts to reflect blank node semantics changes. ←
15:08:05 <gavinc> CLOSE ACTION-253
CLOSE ACTION-253 ←
15:08:05 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-253 Propose changes for what Concepts says about ill-typed literals.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-253 Propose changes for what Concepts says about ill-typed literals. ←
15:08:07 <gavinc> CLOSE ACTION-254
CLOSE ACTION-254 ←
15:08:07 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-254 Propose solution for ISSUE-118.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-254 Propose solution for ISSUE-118. ←
15:08:39 <pfps> zakim, who is on th ephone
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is on th ephone ←
15:08:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on th ephone', pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on th ephone', pfps ←
15:08:46 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:08:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, TallTed (muted), pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Sandro, ericP, PatH, Arnaud (muted), zwu2 (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see GavinC, Guus, TallTed (muted), pfps, AZ, gkellogg, Sandro, ericP, PatH, Arnaud (muted), zwu2 (muted) ←
15:08:58 <gavinc> Close ACTION-243
Close ACTION-243 ←
15:08:58 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-243 Provide license text, asking submitters of comments 21 and 28 if they are willing to share their submitted tests with no IP restrictions and under the proposed license..
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ACTION-243 Provide license text, asking submitters of comments 21 and 28 if they are willing to share their submitted tests with no IP restrictions and under the proposed license.. ←
15:09:08 <gavinc> topic: Issues related to Concepts and Semantics
15:09:14 <gavinc> ISSUE-107?
15:09:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open ←
15:09:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107 ←
15:09:24 <ericP> Zakim, who's muted?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, who's muted? ←
15:09:24 <Zakim> I see TallTed, Arnaud, zwu2 muted
Zakim IRC Bot: I see TallTed, Arnaud, zwu2 muted ←
15:09:25 <gavinc> subtopic: Revised definition of blank nodes
15:09:45 <gavinc> pfps: Fixing up blank nodes, situation hasn't changed in a while. semantics is terse
Peter Patel-Schneider: Fixing up blank nodes, situation hasn't changed in a while. semantics is terse ←
15:09:53 <gavinc> ... concepts is very sparse on blank nodes as well
... concepts is very sparse on blank nodes as well ←
15:10:07 <gavinc> ... proposal is add just enough to cover RDF graphs sharing blank nodes
... proposal is add just enough to cover RDF graphs sharing blank nodes ←
15:10:08 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
15:10:16 <gavinc> ... semantics refers to concepts saying they can happen
... semantics refers to concepts saying they can happen ←
15:10:23 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
15:10:38 <gavinc> ... concepts has to say some stuff, they only can show up if the syntax says they do
... concepts has to say some stuff, they only can show up if the syntax says they do ←
15:10:39 <Zakim> +davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood ←
15:10:51 <TallTed> there appear to be some wording issues -- the difference between "sharing blank nodes" and "sharing blank node identifiers" is significant
Ted Thibodeau: there appear to be some wording issues -- the difference between "sharing blank nodes" and "sharing blank node identifiers" is significant ←
15:10:54 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
15:11:12 <gavinc> ack AZ
ack AZ ←
15:11:32 <gavinc> AZ: Had some issues with the wording of the note pfps wants to add
Antoine Zimmermann: Had some issues with the wording of the note pfps wants to add ←
15:11:39 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
15:11:50 <Guus> AZ's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0137.html
Guus Schreiber: AZ's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0137.html ←
15:12:09 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
15:13:06 <gavinc> AZ: RDF 2005 Does not define only merge, also says you can do union
Antoine Zimmermann: RDF 2004 Does not define only merge, also says you can do union ←
15:13:17 <Guus> ack AZ
Guus Schreiber: ack AZ ←
15:13:24 <gavinc> pfps: I suppose that the documents...
Peter Patel-Schneider: I suppose that the documents... ←
15:13:26 <TallTed> s/2005/2004/
15:13:42 <gavinc> patH: is AZ objecting to the email or the text?
Patrick Hayes: is AZ objecting to the email or the text? ←
15:13:53 <gavinc> ... sounds like the email
... sounds like the email ←
15:14:00 <gavinc> AZ: Yes.
Antoine Zimmermann: Yes. ←
15:14:27 <gavinc> pfps: I suppose AZ is technically correct, but I don't think that's how people read the documents
Peter Patel-Schneider: I suppose AZ is technically correct, but I don't think that's how people read the documents ←
15:14:42 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
15:14:51 <gavinc> ... in RDF 2004 if you combine two graphs your supposed to standardize apart any shared blank node
... in RDF 2004 if you combine two graphs your supposed to standardize apart any shared blank node ←
15:15:20 <gavinc> ... I think we now need to say that it's fine that RDF graphs can share blank nodes, and they will be the same blank node. And in other cases they won't share blank nodes.
... I think we now need to say that it's fine that RDF graphs can share blank nodes, and they will be the same blank node. And in other cases they won't share blank nodes. ←
15:15:33 <TallTed> the trouble with "underlying assumptions" is that they often don't get written into the spec ... because they're just "understood to be there"
Ted Thibodeau: the trouble with "underlying assumptions" is that they often don't get written into the spec ... because they're just "understood to be there" ←
15:15:34 <gavinc> AZ: This is based on your understanding of what people understand of the specification
Antoine Zimmermann: This is based on your understanding of what people understand of the specification ←
15:15:58 <gavinc> ... there is a paragraph that describes union vs. merge.
... there is a paragraph that describes union vs. merge. ←
15:16:50 <gavinc> Guus: AZ your mainly objecting to how we talk about RDF 2004, not the proposed text.
Guus Schreiber: AZ your mainly objecting to how we talk about RDF 2004, not the proposed text. ←
15:17:01 <gavinc> AZ: Yes.
Antoine Zimmermann: Yes. ←
15:17:34 <sandro> +1 lets agree to on the new plan, and then figure out how to describe what the change is/was, if any.
Sandro Hawke: +1 lets agree to on the new plan, and then figure out how to describe what the change is/was, if any. ←
15:17:47 <gavinc> AZ: The way to clarify bnode scropes, is have something that talks about the scope of bnodes.
Antoine Zimmermann: The way to clarify bnode scropes, is have something that talks about the scope of bnodes. ←
15:17:51 <gavinc> +q
+q ←
15:18:26 <gavinc> Guus: If I read pfps message, it says this is the required changes to RDF semantics, and RDF concepts.
Guus Schreiber: If I read pfps message, it says this is the required changes to RDF semantics, and RDF concepts. ←
15:18:27 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_datasetUnion
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_datasetUnion ←
15:19:36 <gavinc> pfps: There is still an issue with the relationship between RDF 2004 and RDF 1.1
Peter Patel-Schneider: There is still an issue with the relationship between RDF 2004 and RDF 1.1 ←
15:19:51 <gavinc> ... this isn't part of what's being decided today
... this isn't part of what's being decided today ←
15:20:16 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:20:16 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted ←
15:21:14 <gavinc> -q
-q ←
15:21:29 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-107 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0115.html, up until "Note:" (We're not characterizing the relationship to RDF 1.0)
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-107 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0115.html, up until "Note:" (We're not characterizing the relationship to RDF 1.0) ←
15:21:44 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:21:45 <gavinc> +1
+1 ←
15:21:46 <pfps> +1
15:21:46 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
15:21:46 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:21:50 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
15:21:52 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:21:58 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
15:22:03 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
15:22:04 <patH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
15:22:08 <gavinc> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-107 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0115.html, up until "Note:" (We're not characterizing the relationship to RDF 1.0)
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-107 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0115.html, up until "Note:" (We're not characterizing the relationship to RDF 1.0) ←
15:22:14 <zwu2> +1
15:22:17 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
15:22:23 <sandro> close issue-107
Sandro Hawke: close ISSUE-107 ←
15:22:23 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-107 Revised definition of blank nodes.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ISSUE-107 Revised definition of blank nodes. ←
15:22:26 <AZ> (then, to replace what's in the note, I would like to see, in Concepts, something about bnode [identifiers] scope)
Antoine Zimmermann: (then, to replace what's in the note, I would like to see, in Concepts, something about bnode [identifiers] scope) ←
15:22:28 <pfps> ACTION pfps to edit Semantics per the previous proposal
Peter Patel-Schneider: ACTION pfps to edit Semantics per the previous proposal ←
15:22:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-255 - Edit Semantics per the previous proposal [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2013-05-01].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-255 - Edit Semantics per the previous proposal [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2013-05-01]. ←
15:23:06 <gavinc> sandro: There is very clear evidence that graph nodes could be shared, and others who thought they couldn't
Sandro Hawke: There is very clear evidence that graph nodes could be shared, and others who thought they couldn't ←
15:23:07 <AZ> ok to say that there was an ambiguity (but not that it was assumed)
Antoine Zimmermann: ok to say that there was an ambiguity (but not that it was assumed) ←
15:24:01 <sandro> pat: Probably no one contemplated blank nodes could be coincidence by chance
Patrick Hayes: Probably no one contemplated blank nodes could be coincidence by chance [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:24:43 <gavinc> ACTION gavinc link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts
ACTION gavinc link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts ←
15:24:43 <trackbot> Error finding 'gavinc'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Error finding 'gavinc'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>. ←
15:24:52 <gavinc> ACTION gcarothe link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts
ACTION gcarothe link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts ←
15:24:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-256 - Link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-05-01].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-256 - Link TriG to new text in RDF Concepts [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-05-01]. ←
15:25:22 <gavinc> ACTION davidwood add resolution of issue-107 to RDF Concepts
ACTION davidwood add resolution of ISSUE-107 to RDF Concepts ←
15:25:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-257 - Add resolution of issue-107 to RDF Concepts [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-257 - Add resolution of ISSUE-107 to RDF Concepts [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01]. ←
15:25:29 <gavinc> subtopic: What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed?
15:25:39 <gavinc> ISSUE-109?
15:25:39 <trackbot> ISSUE-109 -- What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-109 -- What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed? -- open ←
15:25:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/109
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/109 ←
15:25:52 <gavinc> Guus: Proposal from pfps http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html
Guus Schreiber: Proposal from pfps http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html ←
15:26:13 <gavinc> pfps: Illtyped literals do not denote, therefor an ill-typed literal is false
Peter Patel-Schneider: Illtyped literals do not denote, therefor an ill-typed literal is false ←
15:26:19 <sandro> pfps: ill typed literals do not denote, therefor any triple including such a literal is false in all interpretations.
Peter Patel-Schneider: ill typed literals do not denote, therefor any triple including such a literal is false in all interpretations. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:26:20 <gavinc> ... requires a change to concepts
... requires a change to concepts ←
15:27:34 <gavinc> Proposed: Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning.
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning. ←
15:27:55 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
15:27:56 <gavinc> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html ←
15:27:56 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:27:56 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:27:58 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:27:58 <pfps> +1
15:27:59 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
15:28:01 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
15:28:04 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
15:28:04 <zwu2> +1
15:28:07 <gavinc> +1
+1 ←
15:28:17 <patH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
15:28:26 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
15:28:34 <gavinc> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-109 by making ill-typed literals not denote and requiring that RDF implementations accept ill-typed literals and produce RDF graphs from them, possibly producing a warning. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0117.html ←
15:28:36 <sandro> close issue-109
Sandro Hawke: close ISSUE-109 ←
15:28:36 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-109 What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed?.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ISSUE-109 What's the consequence of a literal being ill-typed?. ←
15:28:54 <gavinc> ACTION davidwood update RDF Concepts to reflect issue-109
ACTION davidwood update RDF Concepts to reflect ISSUE-109 ←
15:28:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-258 - Update RDF Concepts to reflect issue-109 [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-258 - Update RDF Concepts to reflect ISSUE-109 [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01]. ←
15:29:21 <gavinc> subtopic: xsd:string
15:29:30 <gavinc> issue-126?
15:29:30 <trackbot> ISSUE-126 -- xsd:string -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-126 -- xsd:string -- open ←
15:29:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/126
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/126 ←
15:30:03 <gavinc> pfps: xsd:string does not allow all unicode code points. it doesn't allow code point 0, ASCII null
Peter Patel-Schneider: xsd:string does not allow all unicode code points. it doesn't allow code point 0, ASCII null ←
15:30:21 <gavinc> ... technicaly this changes the status of literals that contain ASCII nulls
... technicaly this changes the status of literals that contain ASCII nulls ←
15:30:28 <davidwood> q+
David Wood: q+ ←
15:30:33 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
15:30:57 <gavinc> ... any triple containing ASCII null, will now be ill typed and thus false.
... any triple containing ASCII null, will now be ill typed and thus false. ←
15:31:10 <gkellogg> "\u0000"^xsd:string is ill-typed
Gregg Kellogg: "\u0000"^xsd:string is ill-typed ←
15:31:10 <ericP> q+
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ ←
15:31:25 <gavinc> pfps: if your using ascii null, you should have your head exaimined
Peter Patel-Schneider: if your using ascii null, you should have your head exaimined ←
15:31:32 <Guus> ack davidwood
Guus Schreiber: ack davidwood ←
15:31:36 <gavinc> davidwood: good catch, thanks pfps
David Wood: good catch, thanks pfps ←
15:31:41 <davidwood> "Currently a literal with type
David Wood: "Currently a literal with type ←
15:31:41 <davidwood> xsd:string containing the #x0 character is an ill-typed literal, but is
David Wood: xsd:string containing the #x0 character is an ill-typed literal, but is ←
15:31:41 <davidwood> syntactically permissable."
David Wood: syntactically permissable." ←
15:31:42 <gavinc> ... however ...
... however ... ←
15:32:08 <gavinc> ... it isn't posible in any syntax
... it isn't posible in any syntax ←
15:32:33 <gavinc> pfps: Should be said that it is an acceptable RDF Literal
Peter Patel-Schneider: Should be said that it is an acceptable RDF Literal ←
15:32:59 <gavinc> davidwood: but it's not permissable in any syntax
David Wood: but it's not permissable in any syntax ←
15:33:20 <gavinc> pfps: can't pull nulls directly into Turtle, but can use escapes
Peter Patel-Schneider: can't pull nulls directly into Turtle, but can use escapes ←
15:33:21 <AZ> in any case, it is syntactically permissable per the abstract syntax
Antoine Zimmermann: in any case, it is syntactically permissable per the abstract syntax ←
15:33:40 <gavinc> pfps: something that turns into a null character can't be put into xsd:string
Peter Patel-Schneider: something that turns into a null character can't be put into xsd:string ←
15:33:44 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl has NULLs
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl has NULLs ←
15:34:21 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:34:24 <sandro> ack ericP
Sandro Hawke: ack ericP ←
15:34:24 <patH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
15:34:26 <ericP> inaudible?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: inaudible? ←
15:34:27 <ericP> weak
Eric Prud'hommeaux: weak ←
15:34:45 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile ←
15:34:45 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
15:34:57 <Guus> ack ericP
Guus Schreiber: ack ericP ←
15:35:07 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile ←
15:35:07 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
15:35:35 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile ←
15:35:35 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
15:36:01 <patH> q-
Patrick Hayes: q- ←
15:36:12 <gavinc> pfps: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl produces a fine, but a semantics error
Peter Patel-Schneider: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl produces a fine, but a semantics error ←
15:36:22 <gavinc> pfps: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl produces a fine RDF graph, but a semantics error
Peter Patel-Schneider: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl produces a fine RDF graph, but a semantics error ←
15:36:29 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
15:36:32 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl is a semantic error, not a syntax error.
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/LITERAL1_all_controls.ttl is a semantic error, not a syntax error. ←
15:36:40 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
15:36:56 <gavinc> sandro: turtle has to accept it with another data type!
Sandro Hawke: turtle has to accept it with another data type! ←
15:37:18 <pfps> How about "is syntactically permissable" goes to "is acceptable as an RDF literal" as a replacement?
Peter Patel-Schneider: How about "is syntactically permissable" goes to "is acceptable as an RDF literal" as a replacement? ←
15:37:27 <gavinc> Guus: would like to move on to 118?
Guus Schreiber: would like to move on to 118? ←
15:38:01 <gavinc> davidwood: very few people are stupid enough to use ascii nulls in strings
David Wood: very few people are stupid enough to use ascii nulls in strings ←
15:38:05 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
15:38:31 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
15:39:26 <sandro> <sandro> does XML 5th Ed allow control characters like ctl-a and ctl-g ?
Sandro Hawke: <sandro> does XML 5th Ed allow control characters like ctl-a and ctl-g ? ←
15:39:26 <sandro> <liam> no
Sandro Hawke: <liam> no ←
15:39:41 <gavinc> ericP: I acctually raised this back in April
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I acctually raised this back in April ←
15:40:16 <gavinc> ... this is great if you have a PNG or something else with 0s in it.
... this is great if you have a PNG or something else with 0s in it. ←
15:42:00 <gavinc> ... the issue is that plain literal could/was used for a blobs, not just for strings in the past.
... the issue is that plain literal could/was used for a blobs, not just for strings in the past. ←
15:42:36 <gavinc> ... these things also exist in SPARQL update. So SPARQL Update works with 0s in what were plain literals
... these things also exist in SPARQL update. So SPARQL Update works with 0s in what were plain literals ←
15:42:47 <gavinc> sandro: You want a string of characters, and you also want a blob
Sandro Hawke: You want a string of characters, and you also want a blob ←
15:42:49 <gavinc> +q
+q ←
15:43:19 <gavinc> sandro: you often need two diffrent types, one for characters and one for blobs
Sandro Hawke: you often need two diffrent types, one for characters and one for blobs ←
15:43:26 <gavinc> ericP: They have to be characters
Eric Prud'hommeaux: They have to be characters ←
15:43:34 <Guus> ack gavinc
Guus Schreiber: ack gavinc ←
15:43:46 <davidwood> The concept of "character" has morphed significantly since Unicode...
David Wood: The concept of "character" has morphed significantly since Unicode... ←
15:44:05 <gavinc> +q
+q ←
15:44:19 <Guus> ack gavinc
Guus Schreiber: ack gavinc ←
15:45:00 <davidwood> To quote from unicode.org, "The very term character is rather ambiguous"
David Wood: To quote from unicode.org, "The very term character is rather ambiguous" ←
15:45:02 <sandro> gavin: +1 sandro, I don't think you want to treat the same datatype as both a bag of bits and a sequence of character.
Gavin Carothers: +1 sandro, I don't think you want to treat the same datatype as both a bag of bits and a sequence of character. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:45:23 <sandro> gavin: Eg Python
Gavin Carothers: Eg Python [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:45:31 <sandro> gkellogg: and Ruby and Perl
Gregg Kellogg: and Ruby and Perl [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:45:44 <sandro> ericP: I don't see how these apply.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I don't see how these apply. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:45:55 <sandro> davidwood: This is why the concept of a unicode code point was developed
David Wood: This is why the concept of a unicode code point was developed [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:46:10 <patH> +1 david
Patrick Hayes: +1 david ←
15:46:11 <sandro> gavinc: All the functions that apply are completely different. Are you counting character or counting bytes...?
Gavin Carothers: All the functions that apply are completely different. Are you counting character or counting bytes...? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:46:55 <pfps> q+
15:47:17 <sandro> ericP: I don't believe any of these problems apply to us. The problem in these languages is because you didn't know if it was a byte or a character. In our situation, we can write each byte as a character.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I don't believe any of these problems apply to us. The problem in these languages is because you didn't know if it was a byte or a character. In our situation, we can write each byte as a character. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:47:24 <Guus> ack pfps
Guus Schreiber: ack pfps ←
15:47:31 <sandro> gavin: No!
Gavin Carothers: No! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:47:34 <sandro> pfps: No!
Peter Patel-Schneider: No! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:47:46 <sandro> pfps: Plain literals are unicode strings, not sequences of bits.
Peter Patel-Schneider: Plain literals are unicode strings, not sequences of bits. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:48:18 <sandro> pfps: Each element is a unicode codepoint - it's binary representation is not stated.
Peter Patel-Schneider: Each element is a unicode codepoint - it's binary representation is not stated. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:48:33 <sandro> eric: I have code points 0 to 255, it's a very natural encoding
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I have code points 0 to 255, it's a very natural encoding [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:48:43 <sandro> eric: It works fine!
Eric Prud'hommeaux: It works fine! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:48:46 <patH> use case = naughty programmer.
Patrick Hayes: use case = naughty programmer. ←
15:50:11 <sandro> pfps: little endian, etc, problems.
Peter Patel-Schneider: little endian, etc, problems. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:50:22 <sandro> eric: hex encoding has the same problem
Eric Prud'hommeaux: hex encoding has the same problem [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:50:24 <sandro> pfps: true
Peter Patel-Schneider: true [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:50:39 <sandro> issue-118?
15:50:39 <trackbot> ISSUE-118 -- Simplifying datatype semantics -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-118 -- Simplifying datatype semantics -- open ←
15:50:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/118
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/118 ←
15:51:24 <sandro> pfps: One way forward requires no change. I'm happy for someone to argue the other way.
Peter Patel-Schneider: One way forward requires no change. I'm happy for someone to argue the other way. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:51:37 <sandro> Guus, it's okay for us to stay on Zakim today.
Sandro Hawke: Guus, it's okay for us to stay on Zakim today. ←
15:51:45 <gavinc> People can write 0s! Just not in xsd:string
People can write 0s! Just not in xsd:string ←
15:52:05 <sandro> ericP: people will want to write zeros, in plain literals.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: people will want to write zeros, in plain literals. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:52:23 <sandro> ericP: We make things hard for them by disallowing them.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: We make things hard for them by disallowing them. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:52:44 <sandro> pat: 2004 spec says plain literals were co-extant with strings. maybe nobody noticed that.
Patrick Hayes: 2004 spec says plain literals were co-extant with strings. maybe nobody noticed that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:53:05 <sandro> guus: amended proposal?
Guus Schreiber: amended proposal? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:54:03 <sandro> gavin: There is no problem. RDF Plain Literal was always defined in terms of char from XML.
Gavin Carothers: There is no problem. RDF Plain Literal was always defined in terms of char from XML. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:54:19 <sandro> eric: Trig, SPARQL, Turtle, allows zeros
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Trig, SPARQL, Turtle, allows zeros [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:54:31 <sandro> gavin: Just like now -- they're allowed in the syntax, just not in RDF.
Gavin Carothers: Just like now -- they're allowed in the syntax, just not in RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:54:41 <gavinc> "A character is an atomic unit of text. Each character has a Universal Character Set (UCS) code point [ISO/IEC 10646] (or, equivalently, a Unicode code point [UNICODE]) that MUST match the Char production from XML [XML] thus ensuring compatibility with XML Schema Datatypes [XML Schema Datatypes]. Code points are sometimes represented in this document as U+ followed by a four-digit hexadecimal value of the code point. "
"A character is an atomic unit of text. Each character has a Universal Character Set (UCS) code point [ISO/IEC 10646] (or, equivalently, a Unicode code point [UNICODE]) that MUST match the Char production from XML [XML] thus ensuring compatibility with XML Schema Datatypes [XML Schema Datatypes]. Code points are sometimes represented in this document as U+ followed by a four-digit hexadecimal value of the code point. " ←
15:54:57 <sandro> patH: It sounds like implementations have slack at the edges. That situation will probably continue.
Patrick Hayes: It sounds like implementations have slack at the edges. That situation will probably continue. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:55:31 <sandro> sandro: Sounds like we need to add some RDF (in)Consistency Test(s).
Sandro Hawke: Sounds like we need to add some RDF (in)Consistency Test(s). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:56:03 <sandro> pfps: replace "syntactically valid" with "acceptable RDF literal"
Peter Patel-Schneider: replace "syntactically valid" with "acceptable RDF literal" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:57:16 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-plain-literal/
http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-plain-literal/ ←
15:57:22 <sandro> gavin: This is not a change.
Gavin Carothers: This is not a change. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:57:42 <AZ> rdf:PlainLiteral is not part of RDF Concepts
Antoine Zimmermann: rdf:PlainLiteral is not part of RDF Concepts ←
15:58:12 <AZ> The first rec version of rdf:PlaiinLiteral is from 2009
Antoine Zimmermann: The first rec version of rdf:PlaiinLiteral is from 2009 ←
15:58:23 <sandro> sandro: That's not the spec we should be referring to.
Sandro Hawke: That's not the spec we should be referring to. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:58:35 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/ ←
15:59:10 <AZ> "Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase." in Sec.6.5 of RDF Concepts
Antoine Zimmermann: "Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase." in Sec.6.5 of RDF Concepts ←
16:00:20 <AZ> (sorry, "All literals have a lexical form being a Unicode [UNICODE] string, which SHOULD be in Normal Form C [NFC].")
Antoine Zimmermann: (sorry, "All literals have a lexical form being a Unicode [UNICODE] string, which SHOULD be in Normal Form C [NFC].") ←
16:00:21 <ericP> note that i've run http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/manifest.ttl in situ
Eric Prud'hommeaux: note that i've run http://www.w3.org/2013/TurtleTests/manifest.ttl in situ ←
16:00:27 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
16:00:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: Accept http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html, changing "is an ill-typed literal, but is syntactically permissable." to "is an ill-typed literal".
PROPOSED: Accept http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html, changing "is an ill-typed literal, but is syntactically permissable." to "is an ill-typed literal". ←
16:01:10 <patH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:01:18 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:01:18 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
16:01:20 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:01:22 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:01:23 <sandro> +0 not thrilled, but I don't see any alternative
Sandro Hawke: +0 not thrilled, but I don't see any alternative ←
16:01:24 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
16:01:26 <zwu2> +1
16:01:26 <tbaker> +1
Thomas Baker: +1 ←
16:01:34 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
16:01:39 <gavinc> +0
+0 ←
16:01:40 <pfps> +1, with the provisio that there may be some further proposal on how to handle plain literals
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1, with the provisio that there may be some further proposal on how to handle plain literals ←
16:02:08 <sandro> RESOLVED: Accept http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html, changing "is an ill-typed literal, but is syntactically permissable." to "is an ill-typed literal".
RESOLVED: Accept http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html, changing "is an ill-typed literal, but is syntactically permissable." to "is an ill-typed literal". ←
16:03:01 <sandro> issue-126?
16:03:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-126 -- xsd:string -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-126 -- xsd:string -- open ←
16:03:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/126
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/126 ←
16:03:22 <sandro> guus: This was ISSUE-126, now closed.
Guus Schreiber: This was ISSUE-126, now closed. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:03:23 <sandro> close issue-126
Sandro Hawke: close ISSUE-126 ←
16:03:23 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-126 xsd:string.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Closed ISSUE-126 xsd:string. ←
16:03:33 <gavinc> ACTION davidwood to modify RDF Concepts in respect to ISSUE-126, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html
ACTION davidwood to modify RDF Concepts in respect to ISSUE-126, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html ←
16:03:33 <pfps> the minutes will need fixing to change the previous resolution from number 118 to number 126
Peter Patel-Schneider: the minutes will need fixing to change the previous resolution from number 118 to number 126 ←
16:03:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-259 - Modify RDF Concepts in respect to ISSUE-126, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-259 - Modify RDF Concepts in respect to ISSUE-126, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0118.html [on David Wood - due 2013-05-01]. ←
16:03:36 <sandro> subtopic: issue-118
16:03:49 <sandro> subtopic: issue-118 (get rid of datatype maps)
16:03:59 <AZ> a partial mapping, complicated?!
Antoine Zimmermann: a partial mapping, complicated?! ←
16:04:12 <sandro> pat: We can get rid of datatype maps by just making it part of the interpretation map
Patrick Hayes: We can get rid of datatype maps by just making it part of the interpretation map [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:04:23 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:04:36 <sandro> pat: I made this change, but got some pushback. It seems editorial to me.
Patrick Hayes: I made this change, but got some pushback. It seems editorial to me. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:05:02 <sandro> pat: I've suggested changes to the concepts document to bring it in line with this.
Patrick Hayes: I've suggested changes to the concepts document to bring it in line with this. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:05:17 <sandro> pat: I think it's simpler, and more directly intuitive.
Patrick Hayes: I think it's simpler, and more directly intuitive. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:05:23 <sandro> pat: But I wont push on it hard.
Patrick Hayes: But I wont push on it hard. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:05:24 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:05:24 <gavinc> +1 to new language
+1 to new language ←
16:05:31 <sandro> +1 I love it
Sandro Hawke: +1 I love it ←
16:05:35 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:05:46 <AZ> yes I sent
Antoine Zimmermann: yes I sent ←
16:05:48 <sandro> AZ, response?
Sandro Hawke: AZ, response? ←
16:06:34 <gavinc> AZ: I'm not resisting this change. But I'm not sure that we need to make the change.
Antoine Zimmermann: I'm not resisting strongly this change. But I'm not sure that we need to make the change. ←
16:06:55 <sandro> az: while I agree with what pat said, and I'm not strongly resisting this change, I'm reluctant to make a change where the positive motivation is not motivated by hard evidence. It does create a problem: how do you specify what a datatype IRI that is no XSD maps to?
Antoine Zimmermann: while I agree with what pat said, and I'm not strongly resisting this change, I'm reluctant to make a change where the positive motivation is not motivated by hard evidence. It does create a problem: how do you specify what a datatype IRI that is no XSD maps to? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:07:35 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:07:45 <AZ> s/not resisting/not resisting strongly/
16:07:56 <sandro> pat: This isn't really an inconsistency between 2004 and 2013.
Patrick Hayes: This isn't really an inconsistency between 2004 and 2013. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:08:32 <sandro> pat: I don't think inventing a mathematic thing called a datatype map actually solved any problem.
Patrick Hayes: I don't think inventing a mathematic thing called a datatype map actually solved any problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:08:43 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:08:50 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:09:18 <Guus> ack sandro
Guus Schreiber: ack sandro ←
16:09:22 <sandro> pat: The only role the datatype map played was to require the interpretation to be the same at those points
Patrick Hayes: The only role the datatype map played was to require the interpretation to be the same at those points [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:09:22 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
16:09:54 <sandro> sandro: I've never liked datatype maps.
Sandro Hawke: I've never liked datatype maps. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:09:57 <Guus> ack AZ
Guus Schreiber: ack AZ ←
16:10:40 <sandro> az: The role of the datatype map is to say what datatype the IRI denotes.
Antoine Zimmermann: The role of the datatype map is to say what datatype the IRI denotes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:10:48 <sandro> sandro: (rant)
Sandro Hawke: (rant) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:11:36 <patH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:11:50 <Guus> ack patH
Guus Schreiber: ack patH ←
16:12:07 <sandro> sandro: in general when you're writing code that hardcodes the meaning of IRIs, ... that's true for datatypes or predicates or anything.
Sandro Hawke: in general when you're writing code that hardcodes the meaning of IRIs, ... that's true for datatypes or predicates or anything. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:12:23 <gavinc> sandro and az disagree about what datatype maps and iris and interpretations work
sandro and az disagree about what datatype maps and iris and interpretations work ←
16:12:59 <sandro> pat: one less technical notion that people have to understand. the nonmath folks see one-more-mapping and groan (and maybe give up on RDF).
Patrick Hayes: one less technical notion that people have to understand. the nonmath folks see one-more-mapping and groan (and maybe give up on RDF). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:13:10 <sandro> pat: and the equations boil down from 5 to 1.
Patrick Hayes: and the equations boil down from 5 to 1. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:13:21 <AZ> semantics contain s much more complicated things than "a mapping"
Antoine Zimmermann: semantics contain s much more complicated things than "a mapping" ←
16:13:55 <sandro> pat: I'll be improving the exposition of Semantics. That might help with AZ's objection.
Patrick Hayes: I'll be improving the exposition of Semantics. That might help with AZ's objection. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:16 <sandro> pat: eg partial mapping on a set is the same as a total mapping on a subset
Patrick Hayes: eg partial mapping on a set is the same as a total mapping on a subset [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:38 <sandro> guus: maybe a full proposal for issue-118 for next week?
Guus Schreiber: maybe a full proposal for ISSUE-118 for next week? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:47 <sandro> guus: let's resolve it then, please.
Guus Schreiber: let's resolve it then, please. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:54 <sandro> pat: Good for me!
Patrick Hayes: Good for me! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:15:22 <gavinc> Turtle Test suite, it's out there... but we haven't resolved PrEfIX
Turtle Test suite, it's out there... but we haven't resolved PrEfIX ←
16:15:25 <sandro> guus: Any Other Business? Anything Urgent?
Guus Schreiber: Any Other Business? Anything Urgent? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:15:30 <patH> toddlered?
Patrick Hayes: toddlered? ←
16:15:55 <sandro> gavinc: Turtle Test Suite is up, but we need to resolve the Feature At Risk.
Gavin Carothers: Turtle Test Suite is up, but we need to resolve the Feature At Risk. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:16:00 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
16:16:23 <sandro> .. I'm hesitant to ask for new implementation reports until we have decided on that feature.
Sandro Hawke: .. I'm hesitant to ask for new implementation reports until we have decided on that feature. ←
16:16:41 <sandro> .. ALSO, n-triples was published as a NOTE, which means it's DONE by has no normative requirements.
Sandro Hawke: .. ALSO, n-triples was published as a NOTE, which means it's DONE by has no normative requirements. ←
16:16:56 <sandro> .. But the old n-triples was a REC. So that's weird.
Sandro Hawke: .. But the old n-triples was a REC. So that's weird. ←
16:17:11 <sandro> sandro: We could rescind the old one?
Sandro Hawke: We could rescind the old one? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:17:29 <sandro> sandro: since it's becoming obsolete.
Sandro Hawke: since it's becoming obsolete. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:17:41 <gkellogg> We should also probably reference the N-Triples test suite.
Gregg Kellogg: We should also probably reference the N-Triples test suite. ←
16:18:12 <Arnaud> AOB: who's monitoring the WG list? Martin Nally from IBM sent an email to the list on RDF/JSON but because he's not subscribed his email was put on hold, I would appreciate if whoever has control let his email through
Arnaud Le Hors: AOB: who's monitoring the WG list? Martin Nally from IBM sent an email to the list on RDF/JSON but because he's not subscribed his email was put on hold, I would appreciate if whoever has control let his email through ←
16:18:31 <sandro> action: gavin to gather data for resolving the turtle feature-at-risk.
ACTION: gavin to gather data for resolving the turtle feature-at-risk. ←
16:18:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-260 - Gather data for resolving the turtle feature-at-risk. [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-05-01].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-260 - Gather data for resolving the turtle feature-at-risk. [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-05-01]. ←
16:18:52 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
16:19:01 <Zakim> -gkellogg
Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg ←
16:19:02 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
16:19:08 <Zakim> -pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps ←
16:19:32 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:19:33 <gavinc> Oh! ... and we need to split the XML and HTML datatypes out of RDF Concepts
Oh! ... and we need to split the XML and HTML datatypes out of RDF Concepts ←
16:19:43 <sandro> gavinc, why?
Sandro Hawke: gavinc, why? ←
16:19:55 <gavinc> We agreed to a few weeks ago ;)
We agreed to a few weeks ago ;) ←
16:20:14 <sandro> why, gavinc? Because of W3C Dependency rules? That's no longer a good reason.
Sandro Hawke: why, gavinc? Because of W3C Dependency rules? That's no longer a good reason. ←
16:20:21 <sandro> (things are changing)
Sandro Hawke: (things are changing) ←
16:20:29 <gavinc> DOM requirements, and lacking a stable specification to attach to HTML fragement parsing
DOM requirements, and lacking a stable specification to attach to HTML fragement parsing ←
16:20:48 <sandro> we should talk about that more, gavinc, because pulling it out.
Sandro Hawke: we should talk about that more, gavinc, because pulling it out. ←
16:20:49 <gavinc> If we can update RDF Concepts as fragement parsing stablizes that's fine
If we can update RDF Concepts as fragement parsing stablizes that's fine ←
16:20:53 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
16:21:30 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
16:21:35 <Zakim> -TallTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed ←
16:21:44 <gavinc> davidwood, poke me if you get lost
davidwood, poke me if you get lost ←
16:21:55 <davidwood> Cheers, gavinc
David Wood: Cheers, gavinc ←
16:21:56 <gavinc> hg clone https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/
hg clone https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/ ←
16:22:15 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:22:16 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
16:22:18 <Zakim> -GavinC
Zakim IRC Bot: -GavinC ←
16:22:18 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended ←
Formatted by CommonScribe