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15:25:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc ←
15:26:27 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
Ivan Herman: rrsagent, set log public ←
15:26:29 <ivan> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
Ivan Herman: rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight ←
15:27:36 <ivan> Meeting: DPUB IG F2F meeting - second day, 2014-10-31
15:28:00 <ivan> zakim, dial seattle
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial seattle ←
15:28:00 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is ←
15:28:07 <ivan> zakim, this will be dpub
Ivan Herman: zakim, this will be dpub ←
15:28:08 <Zakim> ok, ivan; I see DPUB_IG()11:00AM scheduled to start 28 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; I see DPUB_IG()11:00AM scheduled to start 28 minutes ago ←
15:28:13 <ivan> zakim, dial seattle
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial seattle ←
15:28:13 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
15:28:15 <Zakim> DPUB_IG()11:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_IG()11:00AM has now started ←
15:28:16 <Zakim> +Seattle
Zakim IRC Bot: +Seattle ←
15:29:22 <ivan> scribenick: brady_duga
(Scribe set to Brady Duga)
15:29:49 <ivan> Topic: STEM
15:30:02 <pkra> be right there....
Peter Krautzberger: be right there.... ←
15:30:40 <dauwhe> Zakim, how are you?
Dave Cramer: Zakim, how are you? ←
15:30:40 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dauwhe.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, dauwhe. ←
15:30:58 <Zakim> +pkra
Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra ←
15:31:04 <dauwhe> Zakim, your personality leaves something to be desired.
Dave Cramer: Zakim, your personality leaves something to be desired. ←
15:31:04 <Zakim> I don't understand you, dauwhe
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand you, dauwhe ←
15:33:22 <Zakim> +madi
Zakim IRC Bot: +madi ←
15:33:36 <ivan_> Present+ Madi_Solomon
Ivan Herman: Present+ Madi_Solomon ←
15:33:56 <pkra> Krautzberger
Peter Krautzberger: Krautzberger ←
15:34:08 <pkra> ivan
Peter Krautzberger: ivan ←
15:34:08 <ivan_> Present+ Peter_Krautzberger
Ivan Herman: Present+ Peter_Krautzberger ←
15:34:12 <pkra> :-)
Peter Krautzberger: :-) ←
15:34:21 <mgylling> Present+ Markus_Gylling
Markus Gylling: Present+ Markus_Gylling ←
15:34:23 <ivan_> Present+ Brady_Duga
Ivan Herman: Present+ Brady_Duga ←
15:34:29 <ivan_> Present+ Karen_Myers
Ivan Herman: Present+ Karen_Myers ←
15:34:31 <dauwhe> Present+ Dave_Cramer
Dave Cramer: Present+ Dave_Cramer ←
15:34:39 <ivan_> Present+ Bill_Kasdorf
Ivan Herman: Present+ Bill_Kasdorf ←
15:34:47 <ivan_> Present+ Dave_Cramer
Ivan Herman: Present+ Dave_Cramer ←
15:34:54 <tzviya> chair: tzviya
15:34:54 <ivan_> Present+ Ivan_Herman
Ivan Herman: Present+ Ivan_Herman ←
15:35:04 <ivan_> Present: Markus_Gylling
15:35:18 <ivan_> Present+ Tzviya_Siegman
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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Tzviya_Siegman ←
15:35:26 <ivan_> Present+ Deborah_Kaplan
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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Deborah_Kaplan ←
15:35:37 <ivan_> Present+ Charles_LaPierre
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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Charles_LaPierre ←
15:35:47 <ivan_> Present+ Tim_Cole
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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Tim_Cole ←
15:36:17 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
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Unknown takeshi: Present+ Takeshi_Kanai ←
15:36:32 <brady_duga> tzviya: no real agenda for STEM, want to bring focus to STEM
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Unknown tzviya: no real agenda for STEM, want to bring focus to STEM [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:37:20 <brady_duga> peter: update - wrapped up all but 1 interview
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Unknown peter: update - wrapped up all but 1 interview [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:37:38 <brady_duga> peter: … talked to 4 or 5 people [various names] …
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Unknown peter: … talked to 4 or 5 people [various names] … [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:38:03 <brady_duga> peter: … very productive, will start on the email interview/questionaire now
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Unknown peter: … very productive, will start on the email interview/questionaire now [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:38:19 <brady_duga> peter: … will set up a meeting of the actual task force
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Unknown peter: … will set up a meeting of the actual task force [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:38:42 <brady_duga> peter: … lots of advanced layout features people are looking for
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Unknown peter: … lots of advanced layout features people are looking for [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:38:47 <ivan_> Present+ Shinyu_Murakami
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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Shinyu_Murakami ←
15:39:07 <brady_duga> peter: … extremes: epub heavilly adjusts to reader vs advanced layout
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Unknown peter: … extremes: epub heavilly adjusts to reader vs advanced layout [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:39:31 <brady_duga> peter: … surprised that there was very little STEM specific tech that people need and should be standardized
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Unknown peter: … surprised that there was very little STEM specific tech that people need and should be standardized [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:39:54 <brady_duga> peter: … there is math which is ahead of the curve
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Unknown peter: … there is math which is ahead of the curve [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:40:07 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
15:40:18 <brady_duga> peter: … for every else there are people stuck in proprietary tech
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Unknown peter: … for every else there are people stuck in proprietary tech [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:40:30 <brady_duga> peter: … not a lot of knowledge about what is needed to get it in the web
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Unknown peter: … not a lot of knowledge about what is needed to get it in the web [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:40:49 <brady_duga> tzviya: Might just be that people don’t know what is needed
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Unknown tzviya: Might just be that people don’t know what is needed [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:41:29 <brady_duga> tzviya: … maybe people just haven’t explored these issues, or have they tried and given up?
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Unknown tzviya: … maybe people just haven’t explored these issues, or have they tried and given up? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:41:47 <ivan_> Present+ Ben_De_Meister
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Unknown ivan_: Present+ Ben_De_Meister ←
15:41:48 <brady_duga> peter: not a lot of giving up. Lot of focus on the print side, so limits what you can do
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Unknown peter: not a lot of giving up. Lot of focus on the print side, so limits what you can do [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:42:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: q+ ←
15:42:21 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
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Unknown tzviya: ack Bill_Kasdorf ←
15:42:53 <brady_duga> bill: asking about pub formats in a traditional sense, or using the web for science in general?
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Unknown bill: asking about pub formats in a traditional sense, or using the web for science in general? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:43:00 <TimCole> q+
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Unknown TimCole: q+ ←
15:43:19 <brady_duga> bill: … in science it is taken for granted that the web is used
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Unknown bill: … in science it is taken for granted that the web is used [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:43:58 <pkra> my call dropped...
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Unknown pkra: my call dropped... ←
15:43:59 <brady_duga> bill: .. reaction to comment about reflowable. Using tools is common and not a problem, reflowable content is another story.
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Unknown bill: .. reaction to comment about reflowable. Using tools is common and not a problem, reflowable content is another story. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:44:23 <Zakim> -pkra
Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra ←
15:44:26 <pkra> brb
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Unknown pkra: brb ←
15:44:51 <brady_duga> dkaplan: what is an epub? what is a publication?
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Unknown dkaplan: what is an epub? what is a publication? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:44:56 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben De Meester
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Unknown bjdmeest: Present+ Ben De Meester ←
15:44:59 <brady_duga> bill: yes, keep cycling back to that
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Unknown bill: yes, keep cycling back to that [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:45:03 <Zakim> +pkra
Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra ←
15:45:08 <brady_duga> bill: … may not be relevant
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Unknown bill: … may not be relevant [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:45:21 <brady_duga> dkaplan: is there a STEM group at W3c?
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Unknown dkaplan: is there a STEM group at W3c? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:45:25 <brady_duga> ivan: no
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Unknown ivan: no [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:46:19 <brady_duga> ivan: there has been discussion in the last few months about publications of schaolarly data
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Unknown ivan: there has been discussion in the last few months about publications of schaolarly data [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:46:20 <Zakim> -pkra
Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra ←
15:46:24 <pkra> flaky connection..
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Unknown pkra: flaky connection.. ←
15:46:58 <Zakim> +pkra
Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra ←
15:47:32 <ivan> q+
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Unknown ivan: q+ ←
15:47:48 <brady_duga> zviya: wants to make sure we can actually accomplish something. We could cover the entire web, but that is impossible. Please let’s not try
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Unknown zviya: wants to make sure we can actually accomplish something. We could cover the entire web, but that is impossible. Please let’s not try [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:47:59 <brady_duga> tzviya: … peter, can we get some next steps?
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Unknown tzviya: … peter, can we get some next steps? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:48:25 <brady_duga> tim: there is a set of concerns about traditional pubs moving to the web that PDF can’t do
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Unknown tim: there is a set of concerns about traditional pubs moving to the web that PDF can’t do [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:48:45 <brady_duga> tim: … for instance, in math it is not just data, for example a graph you can manipualte
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Unknown tim: … for instance, in math it is not just data, for example a graph you can manipualte [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:48:55 <brady_duga> tim: … or a 3d model
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Unknown tim: … or a 3d model [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:49:05 <brady_duga> bill: already done routinely
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Unknown bill: already done routinely [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:49:11 <brady_duga> tim: yes, but non-standard
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Unknown tim: yes, but non-standard [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:49:12 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
15:49:17 <tzviya> ack TimCole
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Unknown tzviya: ack TimCole ←
15:49:49 <brady_duga> tzviya: do you want to standardize the data or the method or presenting the data?
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Unknown tzviya: do you want to standardize the data or the method or presenting the data? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:50:07 <brady_duga> tzviya: … data we can address, not so much the 3d modelling
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Unknown tzviya: … data we can address, not so much the 3d modelling [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:50:19 <brady_duga> bill: why can’t we do the modelling
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Unknown bill: why can’t we do the modelling [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:50:51 <brady_duga> bill: … our job is not to solve the problems. If we are focusing on STEM we can’t say modelling is out of scope
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Unknown bill: … our job is not to solve the problems. If we are focusing on STEM we can’t say 3D modelling is out of scope [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:51:31 <brady_duga> tim: Dichotomy isn’t unreasonable
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Unknown tim: Dichotomy isn’t unreasonable [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:51:42 <tzviya> ack ivan
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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan ←
15:51:45 <pkra> q+
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Unknown pkra: q+ ←
15:52:04 <brady_duga> ivan: 2 indepentent things
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Unknown ivan: 2 indepentent things [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:52:28 <brady_duga> ivan: … 1) there are lots of problems with PDF. Lots of things STEM wants to do and PDF doesn’t offer them
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Unknown ivan: … 1) there are lots of problems with PDF. Lots of things STEM wants to do and PDF doesn’t offer them [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:53:03 <brady_duga> ivan: … if this group came up with lists of areas where STEM has problems with PDF, would be great
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Unknown ivan: … if this group came up with lists of areas where STEM has problems with PDF, would be great [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:53:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/modelling/3D modelling
15:53:29 <brady_duga> ivan: … offers some names for Peter (ask him for them)
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Unknown ivan: … offers some names for Peter (ask him for them) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:53:52 <brady_duga> ivan: … 2) for the data, trying to find out what are the missing bits is something that is interesting and important
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Unknown ivan: … 2) for the data, trying to find out what are the missing bits is something that is interesting and important [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:54:14 <brady_duga> ivan: … interesting because Don Groupson joined
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Unknown ivan: … interesting because Don Brutzman joined [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:54:35 <brady_duga> ivan: … have tried to bring 3d modelling to the web for years in web3d group
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Unknown ivan: … have tried to bring 3d modelling to the web for years in web3d group [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:54:38 <tzviya> s/Groupson/Brutzman
15:55:09 <brady_duga> ivan: … w3c pushed away, not mature enough, may not be enough interest
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Unknown ivan: … w3c pushed away, not mature enough, may not be enough interest [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:55:37 <brady_duga> ivan: … if we push for it (on web, in epub), brings it into scope and makes it interesting to w3c
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Unknown ivan: … if we push for it (on web, in epub), brings it into scope and makes it interesting to w3c [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:55:48 <brady_duga> ivan: … may be other interesting formats
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Unknown ivan: … may be other interesting formats [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:56:22 <tzviya> ack pkra
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Unknown tzviya: ack pkra ←
15:56:24 <brady_duga> ivan: … whether w3c can handle it, we can’t decide, but we can identify issues with current specs (for example can html5 handle 3d like it handles svg)
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Unknown ivan: … whether w3c can handle it, we can’t decide, but we can identify issues with current specs (for example can html5 handle 3d like it handles svg) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:57:02 <brady_duga> peter: clarifying that talking to real publishers, that doesn’t seem to be a place we can find solutions
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Unknown peter: clarifying that talking to real publishers, that doesn’t seem to be a place we can find solutions [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:57:37 <brady_duga> peter: … static rendering eliminates need for custom rendering
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Unknown peter: … static rendering eliminates need for custom rendering [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:58:16 <brady_duga> peter: … do think the idea of a STEM group or community to bring together interested parties might be a good outcome from the task force
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Unknown peter: … do think the idea of a STEM group or community to bring together interested parties might be a good outcome from the task force [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:58:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: +1 ←
15:58:46 <ivan> q+
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Unknown ivan: q+ ←
15:58:47 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
15:58:50 <brady_duga> peter: … maybe the perfect tool is a couple of CG, might be worthwhile to bring these people together
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Unknown peter: … maybe the perfect tool is a couple of CG, might be worthwhile to bring these people together [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:58:52 <tzviya> ack ivan
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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan ←
15:59:16 <brady_duga> peter: … help publishers formulate the solutions they need (want to do interesting things, but don’t know how)
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Unknown peter: … help publishers formulate the solutions they need (want to do interesting things, but don’t know how) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:59:25 <brady_duga> ivan: only concern is work duplication
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Unknown ivan: only concern is work duplication [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
15:59:34 <ivan> Force11 - http://www.force11.org
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Unknown ivan: Force11 - http://www.force11.org ←
16:00:04 <brady_duga> ivan: … is on the board at force11, looking at these issues, they are active
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Unknown ivan: … is on the board at force11, looking at these issues, they are active [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:00:21 <brady_duga> ivan: … force11 doesn’t want to work alone
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Unknown ivan: … force11 doesn’t want to work alone [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:00:34 <brady_duga> ivan: … once we know what is needed, we can rech out to these groups
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Unknown ivan: … once we know what is needed, we can rech out to these groups [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:00:52 <brady_duga> ivan: … The interviews you had were with publishers
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Unknown ivan: … The interviews you had were with publishers [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:01:22 <brady_duga> ivan: … the big publishers are very conservative, so maybe you need to have interviews with people in the scholarly community
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Unknown ivan: … the big publishers are very conservative, so maybe you need to have interviews with people in the scholarly community [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:01:37 <tzviya> +1
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Unknown tzviya: +1 ←
16:01:47 <brady_duga> ivan: … there are very few scholarly publishers in anything other than PDF
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Unknown ivan: … there are very few scholarly publishers in anything other than PDF [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:02:03 <brady_duga> ivan: … hard to break the circle, want ot hear from both sides
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Unknown ivan: … hard to break the circle, want ot hear from both sides [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:02:19 <brady_duga> bill: the first interviews were with those people. We do have that input.
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Unknown bill: the first interviews were with those people. We do have that input. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:02:45 <TimCole> q+
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Unknown TimCole: q+ ←
16:03:19 <brady_duga> peter: scholars annoyed with current tech, give me anything to get away from static rendering
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Unknown peter: scholars annoyed with current tech, give me anything to get away from static rendering [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:03:20 <tzviya> ack TimCole
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Unknown tzviya: ack TimCole ←
16:03:48 <brady_duga> tim: You ask scholars what they need in digital media, and they ask for the wrong thing, or underestimate
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Unknown tim: You ask scholars what they need in digital media, and they ask for the wrong thing, or underestimate [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:04:13 <brady_duga> tim: … got best results talking to PhD students. Learn a lot about their fears.
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Unknown tim: … got best results talking to PhD students. Learn a lot about their fears. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:04:19 <dkaplan3> q+
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Unknown dkaplan3: q+ ←
16:04:32 <brady_duga> tim: … cautious, want to protect their careers
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Unknown tim: … cautious, want to protect their careers [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:04:37 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
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Unknown tzviya: ack dkaplan ←
16:05:02 <ivan> q+
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Unknown ivan: q+ ←
16:06:08 <brady_duga> peter: Seems like a CG to bring people together would be good
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Unknown peter: Seems like a CG to bring people together would be good [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:06:36 <brady_duga> dkaplan: 2 deliverables: think STEM is a larger issues than DPUB (tell this to W3c)
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Unknown dkaplan: 2 deliverables: think STEM is a larger issues than DPUB (tell this to W3c) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:06:54 <brady_duga> dkaplan: w3c should look into this for a STEM group
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Unknown dkaplan: w3c should look into this for a STEM group [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:07:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: q+ ←
16:07:23 <brady_duga> dkaplan: … from dpub, we have a list of things that STEM people want in their publications that they can’t do
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Unknown dkaplan: … from dpub, we have a list of things that STEM people want in their publications that they can’t do [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:07:37 <brady_duga> dkaplan: … hand this research over to w3c/new group
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Unknown dkaplan: … hand this research over to w3c/new group [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:07:45 <pkra> q+
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Unknown pkra: q+ ←
16:08:03 <brady_duga> dkaplan: … we could be stuck just looking at one issue in this group for years
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Unknown dkaplan: … we could be stuck just looking at one issue in this group for years [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:08:05 <tzviya> ack ivan
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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan ←
16:08:30 <ivan> Maryann Martone, maryann@ncmir.ucsd.edu
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Unknown ivan: Maryann Martone, maryann@ncmir.ucsd.edu ←
16:08:40 <brady_duga> ivan: 2 additional things: Peter - you could get an interview with Maryann Martone
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Unknown ivan: 2 additional things: Peter - you could get an interview with Maryann Martone [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:08:53 <brady_duga> ivan: … I don’t want to do it, you should
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Unknown ivan: … I don’t want to do it, you should [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:09:24 <brady_duga> ivan: … other thing: to document what dkaplan just said is useful
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Unknown ivan: … other thing: to document what dkaplan just said is useful [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:09:32 <brady_duga> ivan: … but don’t get your hope up
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Unknown ivan: … but don’t get your hope up [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:10:14 <brady_duga> ivan: … things may have already slipped out of w3c, so we may be too late
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Unknown ivan: … things may have already slipped out of w3c, so we may be too late [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:10:20 <tzviya> ack Bill-Kasdorf
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Unknown tzviya: ack Bill-Kasdorf ←
16:10:24 <brady_duga> ivan: … the list is very useful
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Unknown ivan: … the list is very useful [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:10:39 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
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Unknown tzviya: ack Bill_Kasdorf ←
16:11:02 <brady_duga> peter: to clarify, biggest problem is when you say Maryann Martone has good insights from our point of view, my problem is “what is out point of view”?
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Unknown peter: to clarify, biggest problem is when you say Maryann Martone has good insights from our point of view, my problem is “what is out point of view”? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:11:25 <brady_duga> ivan: what are issues scholars have with PDF? Or traditional publications?
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Unknown ivan: what are issues scholars have with PDF? Or traditional publications? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:11:39 <brady_duga> ivan: … she may have ideas and further pointers for that
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Unknown ivan: … she may have ideas and further pointers for that [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:12:14 <brady_duga> bill: the issues we are talking about today should go in the questionaire
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Unknown bill: the issues we are talking about today should go in the questionaire [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:12:26 <brady_duga> bill: … that’s what the interviews are for
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Unknown bill: … that’s what the interviews are for [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:13:00 <brady_duga> tzviya: At what point will we get data back from the questionnaire? This group is chartered for just one more year
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Unknown tzviya: At what point will we get data back from the questionnaire? This group is chartered for just one more year [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:13:39 <brady_duga> bill: task force strategy was to do interviews to create the larger, more structured questionaire
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Unknown bill: task force strategy was to do interviews to create the larger, more structured questionaire [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:14:07 <brady_duga> peter: Timing, send out Q in Nov, then give people to end of year
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Unknown peter: Timing, send out Q in Nov, then give people to end of year [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:14:14 <brady_duga> peter: … then write up in Jan
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Unknown peter: … then write up in Jan [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:14:29 <brady_duga> ivan: can you come to conference in Jan?
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Unknown ivan: can you come to conference in Jan? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:14:33 <brady_duga> peter: I will try
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Unknown peter: I will try [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:14:36 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
16:14:54 <tzviya> ack pkra
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Unknown tzviya: ack pkra ←
16:15:14 <brady_duga> tzviya: timing: get Q out in early Nov, give them 1 or 2 weeks, get all results by end of Nov.
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Unknown tzviya: timing: get Q out in early Nov, give them 1 or 2 weeks, get all results by end of Nov. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:15:35 <brady_duga> tzviya: … then process data in 2 or 4 weeks, when have it all ready for force11 conf
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Unknown tzviya: … then process data in 2 or 4 weeks, when have it all ready for force11 conf [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:15:52 <brady_duga> tzviya: … we end in less than 1 year, so need to have discrete action items ASAP
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Unknown tzviya: … we end in less than 1 year, so need to have discrete action items ASAP [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:16:00 <brady_duga> tzviya: does that timeline work?
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Unknown tzviya: does that timeline work? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:16:06 <brady_duga> peter: we will make it work
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Unknown peter: we will make it work [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:16:19 <brady_duga> bill: we can find a volunteer to help
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Unknown bill: we can find a volunteer to help [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:16:45 <brady_duga> peter: surprising thing was authoring on and for the web topic
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Unknown peter: surprising thing was authoring on and for the web topic [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:16:57 <brady_duga> peter: less STEM, but using the web as an authoring platform
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Unknown peter: less STEM, but using the web as an authoring platform [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:17:00 <ivan> Present+ Daniel_Glazmann
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Daniel_Glazmann ←
16:17:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: +1 ←
16:17:15 <brady_duga> peter: … there is movement away from xml
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Unknown peter: … there is movement away from xml [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:17:33 <brady_duga> peter: … people data mine html anyway, so why do we make xml?
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Unknown peter: … people data mine html anyway, so why do we make xml? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:17:59 <brady_duga> peter: … slow transition away from PDF to web
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Unknown peter: … slow transition away from PDF to web [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:18:19 <brady_duga> peter: … search - no one does it because there are no semantically interesting formats
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Unknown peter: … search - no one does it because there are no semantically interesting formats [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:18:48 <brady_duga> peter: … mathml is ahead of the curve, but everyone else there are no tools it is an abyss
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Unknown peter: … mathml is ahead of the curve, but everyone else there are no tools it is an abyss [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:18:59 <brady_duga> peter: … annotation work is appreciated
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Unknown peter: … annotation work is appreciated [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:19:22 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
16:19:22 <brady_duga> peter: … metadata - there is a lot of detailed metadata, but it seems too hard to use, too hand crafted
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Unknown peter: … metadata - there is a lot of detailed metadata, but it seems too hard to use, too hand crafted [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:19:57 <brady_duga> peter: … peer review - this is publishing in general. How to organize it on the web, then how do we deal with STEM specific content (for example the data)
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Unknown peter: … peer review - this is publishing in general. How to organize it on the web, then how do we deal with STEM specific content (for example the data) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:20:12 <brady_duga> peter: … and finally data. How to deal with data sets, make them available, etc
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Unknown peter: … and finally data. How to deal with data sets, make them available, etc [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:20:48 <brady_duga> tzviya: talk about AI
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Unknown tzviya: talk about AI [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:21:15 <brady_duga> action pkra to send STEM survey in Nov
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Unknown brady_duga: action pkra to send STEM survey in Nov ←
16:21:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-34 - Send stem survey in nov [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-34 - Send stem survey in nov [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07]. ←
16:21:51 <brady_duga> tzviya: who is on taskforce?
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Unknown tzviya: who is on taskforce? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:22:04 <brady_duga> ivan: reach out to Don
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Unknown ivan: reach out to Don [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:22:17 <brady_duga> action tzviya to reach out to Don
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Unknown brady_duga: action tzviya to reach out to Don ←
16:22:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Reach out to don [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-35 - Reach out to don [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07]. ←
16:22:50 <brady_duga> action pkra to call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this Monday)
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Unknown brady_duga: action pkra to call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this Monday) ←
16:22:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this monday) [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-36 - Call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this monday) [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07]. ←
16:23:37 <brady_duga> tzviya: Need to document the results. Ivan will lead the process through respec
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Unknown tzviya: Need to document the results. Ivan will lead the process through respec [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:24:17 <brady_duga> peter: have started to work on a proper respec document
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Unknown peter: have started to work on a proper respec document [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:24:37 <brady_duga> markus: have a tangent question
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Markus Gylling: have a tangent question [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:24:51 <brady_duga> markus: … ivan said there was a 3d standards war?
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Markus Gylling: … ivan said there was a 3d standards war? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:25:14 <brady_duga> ivan: webgl is low level. If you want complicated 3d models, doing it in webgl is tedious
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Unknown ivan: webgl is low level. If you want complicated 3d models, doing it in webgl is tedious [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:25:58 <brady_duga> ivan: … x3d consortium has an xml spec for modelling (very old school)
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Unknown ivan: … x3d consortium has an xml spec for modelling (very old school) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:26:20 <brady_duga> ivan: .. there is another group that has a similar language, but closer to the web (use CSS, DOM, etc)
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Unknown ivan: .. there is another group that has a similar language, but closer to the web (use CSS, DOM, etc) [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:26:30 <brady_duga> markus: do they both use webgl?
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Markus Gylling: do they both use webgl? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:26:42 <brady_duga> ivan: yes, underneath they both use webgl
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Unknown ivan: yes, underneath they both use webgl [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:27:00 <brady_duga> ivan: … there was a German CG, sort of died out
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Unknown ivan: … there was a German CG, sort of died out [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:27:23 <brady_duga> ivan: … it is worse than mathml, browsers say it is a niche market, not interested in implementing it
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Unknown ivan: … it is worse than mathml, browsers say it is a niche market, not interested in implementing it [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:28:09 <brady_duga> ivan: … this idea of doing 3d at w3c, some people have talked about it since early 2000s
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Unknown ivan: … this idea of doing 3d at w3c, some people have talked about it since early 2000s [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:28:34 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
16:28:36 <brady_duga> ivan: … if digital publishers push for it, maybe the new demand would push things forward
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Unknown ivan: … if digital publishers push for it, maybe the new demand would push things forward [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:28:57 <dkaplan3> q+
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Unknown dkaplan3: q+ ←
16:29:15 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
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Unknown tzviya: ack dkaplan ←
16:29:46 <brady_duga> dkaplan: maybe out of school but when there is STEM outreach maybe talk to some blind scientists.
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Unknown dkaplan: maybe out of scope but when there is STEM outreach maybe talk to some blind scientists. [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:30:01 <dkaplan3> s/school/scope
16:30:06 <brady_duga> peter: maybe John Gardner?
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Unknown peter: maybe John Gardner? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:30:51 <brady_duga> tzviya: we do have acccesible authoring tools at 1pm here. Peter, please join if you are awake
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Unknown tzviya: we do have acccesible authoring tools at 1pm here. Peter, please join if you are awake [ Scribe Assist by Unknown brady_duga ] ←
16:31:31 <Zakim> -madi
Zakim IRC Bot: -madi ←
16:32:27 <Zakim> -pkra
Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra ←
16:42:29 <Zakim> + +44.788.775.aaaa
(No events recorded for 10 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.788.775.aaaa ←
16:42:48 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
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(Scribe set to Unknown dauwhe)
16:43:13 <Zakim> +madi
Zakim IRC Bot: +madi ←
16:46:00 <Zakim> +astein
Zakim IRC Bot: +astein ←
16:46:49 <Zakim> + +1.217.721.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.217.721.aabb ←
16:47:19 <ivan> Present+ Liam_Quin
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Liam_Quin ←
16:47:36 <ivan> Present+ Alan_Stein
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Alan_Stein ←
16:47:56 <ivan> Chair: Markus
16:47:59 <dauwhe> Topic: metadata
16:48:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> Metadata agenda is at https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: Metadata agenda is at https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F ←
16:48:06 <dauwhe> mgylling: we have two hours
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Markus Gylling: we have two hours ←
16:48:25 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: this will be simple
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: this will be simple ←
16:48:42 <dauwhe> mgylling: what do you see as outcomes after two hours?
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Markus Gylling: what do you see as outcomes after two hours? ←
16:49:00 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: defer to ivan on first step
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: defer to ivan on first step ←
16:49:13 <dauwhe> ... we don't have is a document to deliver to w3c
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... we don't have is a document to deliver to w3c ←
16:49:18 <astein> *Ayla_Stein
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Unknown astein: *Ayla_Stein ←
16:49:26 <dauwhe> ... what are we asking of W3C to address metadata
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... what are we asking of W3C to address metadata ←
16:49:32 <dauwhe> ... how can we best express that?
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... how can we best express that? ←
16:50:11 <dauwhe> ... we focused on many nebulous issues, where the W3C cannot help
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... we focused on many nebulous issues, where the W3C cannot help ←
16:50:21 <dauwhe> ivan: if the IG produces a document on a wish list
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Unknown ivan: if the IG produces a document on a wish list ←
16:50:26 <dauwhe> ... these are things that should happen
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... these are things that should happen ←
16:50:38 <dauwhe> ... specific things at w3c
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... specific things at w3c ←
16:50:43 <dauwhe> ... that's as far as this group can go
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... that's as far as this group can go ←
16:50:53 <dauwhe> ... under which heading and structure?
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... under which heading and structure? ←
16:51:10 <dauwhe> ... can publish as w3c note
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... can publish as w3c note ←
16:51:16 <dauwhe> ... a stable document that can be refered to
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... a stable document that can be refered to ←
16:51:19 <dauwhe> ... that's my goal
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... that's my goal ←
16:51:32 <dauwhe> ... in that doc you cannot use the word "recommendation"
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... in that doc you cannot use the word "recommendation" ←
16:52:04 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: overview... we know how we got here
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: overview... we know how we got here ←
16:52:08 <dauwhe> ... three main things
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... three main things ←
16:52:15 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
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Unknown ivan: zakim, who is here? ←
16:52:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Seattle, +44.788.775.aaaa (muted), madi, astein, +1.217.721.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Seattle, +44.788.775.aaaa (muted), madi, astein, +1.217.721.aabb ←
16:52:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see liam_, murakami_, astein, bobtung, Reinaldo_, madi, ShaneM_, fettes, fjh, jamesn, bjdmeest, clapierre1, Bill_Kasdorf, Karen_, ivan, tzviya, takeshi, dauwhe,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see liam_, murakami_, astein, bobtung, Reinaldo_, madi, ShaneM_, fettes, fjh, jamesn, bjdmeest, clapierre1, Bill_Kasdorf, Karen_, ivan, tzviya, takeshi, dauwhe, ←
16:52:18 <Zakim> ... brady_duga, RRSAgent, Zakim, mgylling, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... brady_duga, RRSAgent, Zakim, mgylling, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot ←
16:52:24 <dauwhe> ... first: need to better enable ONIX metadata expressed on the web and in web docs
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... first: need to better enable ONIX metadata expressed on the web and in web docs ←
16:52:47 <dauwhe> ivan: [administrative issues discussed]
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Unknown ivan: [administrative issues discussed] ←
16:52:51 <ivan> Present+ Graham
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Graham ←
16:53:40 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: second issue is lack of understanding in pub community of existing tools like URIs
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: second issue is lack of understanding in pub community of existing tools like URIs ←
16:53:50 <dauwhe> ... little understanding of RDFa
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... little understanding of RDFa ←
16:53:58 <dauwhe> ... that's in pub side, not library side
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... that's in pub side, not library side ←
16:54:09 <dauwhe> ... there's a big gulf between trade and library sides of business
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... there's a big gulf between trade and library sides of business ←
16:54:28 <dauwhe> ... need better education
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... need better education ←
16:54:39 <dauwhe> ... third issue is rights metadata
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... third issue is rights metadata ←
16:54:59 <dauwhe> ... not just associating rights metadata with publications, but with portions of publications
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... not just associating rights metadata with publications, but with portions of publications ←
16:55:07 <dauwhe> ... we don't have a strategy for those three issues
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... we don't have a strategy for those three issues ←
16:55:20 <dauwhe> ... let's talk about ONIX first, as we have Graham on the phone, Mr. Onix
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... let's talk about ONIX first, as we have Graham on the phone, Mr. Onix ←
16:55:29 <dauwhe> ... ONIX is a messaging format between trading partners
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... ONIX is a messaging format between trading partners ←
16:55:44 <dauwhe> ... it's confused with subject metadata, but ONIX is much more
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... it's confused with subject metadata, but ONIX is much more ←
16:55:53 <dauwhe> ... the discussion has often involved schema.org
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... the discussion has often involved schema.org ←
16:56:09 <dauwhe> ... is the discussion about ONIX? Or schema.org?
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... is the discussion about ONIX? Or schema.org? ←
16:56:17 <dauwhe> ... there are other orgs working on similar things
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... there are other orgs working on similar things ←
16:56:23 <dauwhe> ... let's collaborate but not collide
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... let's collaborate but not collide ←
16:56:49 <dauwhe> ... first thing is to get a firm grasp on players and what they're doing, especially in schema.org
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... first thing is to get a firm grasp on players and what they're doing, especially in schema.org ←
16:57:03 <dauwhe> ... BISG is U.S. org that talks to Editeur
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... BISG is U.S. org that talks to Editeur ←
16:57:17 <dauwhe> ... BISG is forming WG on book publishers using onix with schema.org
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... BISG is forming WG on book publishers using onix with schema.org ←
16:57:23 <dauwhe> ... Graham is chair of that WG for BISG
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... Graham is chair of that WG for BISG ←
16:57:44 <dauwhe> ... when talking with ??? of Springer, people talking about subscription metadata in schema.org
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... when talking with ??? of Springer, people talking about subscription metadata in schema.org ←
16:58:01 <dauwhe> ... Also some work in Library community on schema.org
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... Also some work in Library community on schema.org ←
16:58:14 <dauwhe> ... so we may need to focus on schema.org rather than ONIX
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... so we may need to focus on schema.org rather than ONIX ←
16:58:34 <dauwhe> TimCole: we've worked with OCLC and LOC
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Unknown TimCole: we've worked with OCLC and LOC ←
16:58:48 <dauwhe> ... Libraries are trying to figure out how to use schema.org
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... Libraries are trying to figure out how to use schema.org ←
16:58:56 <dauwhe> ... need authority files
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... need authority files ←
16:59:29 <dauwhe> ... we have MARC records looking about information for names to map to URIs
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... we have MARC records looking about information for names to map to URIs ←
16:59:50 <dauwhe> ... we analyzed 5m books, got 70% by matching
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... we analyzed 5m books, got 70% by matching ←
17:00:03 <dauwhe> ... partly because old MARC records didn't have birth/death data
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... partly because old MARC records didn't have birth/death data ←
17:00:09 <dauwhe> ... similar results with subject names
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... similar results with subject names ←
17:00:16 <dauwhe> ... made schema.org records better
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... made schema.org records better ←
17:00:24 <dauwhe> ... and linked them with other sources
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... and linked them with other sources ←
17:00:42 <dauwhe> ... how to express holdings in schema.org
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... how to express holdings in schema.org ←
17:00:48 <dauwhe> ... there's a community group
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... there's a community group ←
17:01:24 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: pubs have ONIX, library has MARC
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: pubs have ONIX, library has MARC ←
17:01:43 <dauwhe> ... but in library world there are major authority files like VIF, worldcat, name authority files
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... but in library world there are major authority files like VIF, worldcat, name authority files ←
17:01:55 <dauwhe> ... that are invaluable to librarians, who are the real metadata experts
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... that are invaluable to librarians, who are the real metadata experts ←
17:02:09 <dauwhe> ... but publishers don't know that sh%#
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... but publishers don't know that sh%# ←
17:02:24 <dauwhe> TimCole: link to wikipedia names
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Unknown TimCole: link to wikipedia names ←
17:03:28 <ivan> The community group Tim was talking about: http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/
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Unknown ivan: The community group Tim was talking about: http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/ ←
17:03:33 <dauwhe> Graham: I agree with Tim
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Unknown Graham: I agree with Tim ←
17:03:46 <dauwhe> ... increasing interest in authorities like ISNI in pub world
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... increasing interest in authorities like ISNI in pub world ←
17:03:58 <dauwhe> ... not quite the same as VIAF
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... not quite the same as VIAF ←
17:04:05 <dauwhe> ... but does give you all disambiguations
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... but does give you all disambiguations ←
17:04:14 <dauwhe> ... close links between OCLC and ISNI
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... close links between OCLC and ISNI ←
17:04:26 <dauwhe> ... and is unique persistent identifier for a public identity
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... and is unique persistent identifier for a public identity ←
17:04:35 <dauwhe> ... can be expressed as URI
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... can be expressed as URI ←
17:04:44 <dauwhe> ... [lots of slashes]
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... [lots of slashes] ←
17:04:58 <dauwhe> ... there are also subject authorities like BISAC and BIC and Thema
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... there are also subject authorities like BISAC and BIC and Thema ←
17:05:22 <dauwhe> ... they do something similar to Dewey or LOC or similar things
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... they do something similar to Dewey or LOC or similar things ←
17:05:37 <dauwhe> ... it's not that pub doesn't have authority, it's just different and perhaps a little behind
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... it's not that pub doesn't have authority, it's just different and perhaps a little behind ←
17:05:45 <dauwhe> ... ISNI isn't widely used yet
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... ISNI isn't widely used yet ←
17:05:59 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: there are 8 million ISNI
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: there are 8 million ISNI ←
17:06:11 <dauwhe> Graham: ISNI is growing quickly but not widely used
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Unknown Graham: ISNI is growing quickly but not widely used ←
17:06:17 <dauwhe> ... the subject schemes are widely used
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... the subject schemes are widely used ←
17:06:27 <dauwhe> ... BISAC is ubiquitious in US, BIC in UK
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... BISAC is ubiquitious in US, BIC in UK ←
17:06:36 <dauwhe> ... the problem is that they are national
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... the problem is that they are national ←
17:06:46 <ivan> (the scholarly publishers and authors have a similar service via ORCID (http://www.orcid.org)
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Unknown ivan: (the scholarly publishers and authors have a similar service via ORCID (http://www.orcid.org) ←
17:06:49 <dauwhe> ... France has CLIL
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... France has CLIL ←
17:06:58 <dauwhe> ... there are hundreds of these subject schemes
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... there are hundreds of these subject schemes ←
17:07:09 <dauwhe> ... Thema is designed to solve this problem
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... Thema is designed to solve this problem ←
17:07:15 <dauwhe> ... based on BIC but more international
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... based on BIC but more international ←
17:07:24 <dauwhe> ... Happy First Birthday to Thema!
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... Happy First Birthday to Thema! ←
17:07:28 <dauwhe> ... it's growing
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... it's growing ←
17:07:39 <dauwhe> ... and commercially relevant
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... and commercially relevant ←
17:07:55 <dauwhe> ... it has different features than library subject schemes, which are much more details
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... it has different features than library subject schemes, which are much more details ←
17:08:06 <dauwhe> ... library schemes may have 100000 categories
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... library schemes may have 100000 categories ←
17:08:18 <tzviya> q+
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Unknown tzviya: q+ ←
17:08:28 <dauwhe> ... publishers have relatively unskilled poeople, there are 4k subjects
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... publishers have relatively unskilled poeople, there are 4k subjects ←
17:08:40 <dauwhe> s/poeple/people/
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s/poeple/people/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
17:08:48 <dauwhe> madi: [beep]
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Unknown madi: [beep] ←
17:08:57 <dauwhe> ... what sort of actions do we want to take?
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... what sort of actions do we want to take? ←
17:09:09 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is fun but let's focus
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Unknown tzviya: this is fun but let's focus ←
17:09:15 <ivan> q+
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Unknown ivan: q+ ←
17:09:15 <tzviya> ack tzviya
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Unknown tzviya: ack tzviya ←
17:09:21 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: there's lots of metadata out there
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: there's lots of metadata out there ←
17:09:35 <dauwhe> ... focus should be to how to implement this in OWP?
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... focus should be to how to implement this in OWP? ←
17:09:39 <dauwhe> ... what needs to be done?
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... what needs to be done? ←
17:10:08 <dauwhe> ... do we need to chose between these identifiers? No, need lots of them
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... do we need to chose between these identifiers? No, need lots of them ←
17:10:17 <dauwhe> ... but must express as URIs.
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... but must express as URIs. ←
17:10:32 <dauwhe> ... need resolvable identifiers expressed as URIs
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... need resolvable identifiers expressed as URIs ←
17:11:14 <dauwhe> ... we were focused on ONIX, which means we're focusing on book trade
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... we were focused on ONIX, which means we're focusing on book trade ←
17:11:19 <dauwhe> ... note we don't govern ONIX
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... note we don't govern ONIX ←
17:11:30 <dauwhe> ... schema.org is not W3C standard
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... schema.org is not W3C standard ←
17:11:55 <dauwhe> ... I think we should focus on schema.org implementation, independent of the vocabulary
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... I think we should focus on schema.org implementation, independent of the vocabulary ←
17:12:06 <tzviya> ack ivan
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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan ←
17:12:09 <dauwhe> ... what might need to be added/changed to make schema.org more useful
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... what might need to be added/changed to make schema.org more useful ←
17:12:17 <dauwhe> ivan: we need to separate issues
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Unknown ivan: we need to separate issues ←
17:12:39 <dauwhe> ... various schems like ISNI and Orchid
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... various schems like ISNI and ORCID ←
17:12:46 <dauwhe> ... these are important
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... these are important ←
17:12:57 <tzviya> s/Orchid/ORCID
17:12:58 <dauwhe> ... it's sad that we have many standards instead of one
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... it's sad that we have many standards instead of one ←
17:13:27 <dauwhe> ... schema.org is a collection of terms for the properties
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... schema.org is a collection of terms for the properties ←
17:13:48 <dauwhe> ... can only have list of subjects (accepted vocabularies)
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... can only have list of subjects (accepted vocabularies) ←
17:14:01 <dauwhe> ... we can't really influence them
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... we can't really influence them ←
17:14:27 <dauwhe> ... schema.org has a heirarchy of classes and properties
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... schema.org has a heirarchy of classes and properties ←
17:14:32 <dauwhe> ... persons and shops and actions
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... persons and shops and actions ←
17:14:40 <dauwhe> ... which falls back to what ONIX can do
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... which falls back to what ONIX can do ←
17:14:45 <dauwhe> ... ONIX is way too huge
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... ONIX is way too huge ←
17:15:04 <tzviya> example: http://schema.org/Book
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Unknown example: http://schema.org/Book [ Scribe Assist by Unknown tzviya ] ←
17:15:22 <dauwhe> ... if there's already a group looking at mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema.org
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... if there's already a group looking at mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema.org ←
17:15:47 <dauwhe> ... BISG is doing this, which is great
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... BISG is doing this, which is great ←
17:15:51 <dauwhe> ... so we shouldn't do it.
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... so we shouldn't do it. ←
17:15:57 <dauwhe> ... let's wish them good luck
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... let's wish them good luck ←
17:16:02 <dauwhe> ... and I'd be happy to help
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... and I'd be happy to help ←
17:16:11 <dauwhe> ... and use my contacts at schema.org
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... and use my contacts at schema.org ←
17:16:27 <dauwhe> ... so let's not set up Yet Another Group (YAG)
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... so let's not set up Yet Another Group (YAG) ←
17:16:39 <tzviya> +1
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Unknown tzviya: +1 ←
17:16:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: This is for book trade onix metadata
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: This is for book trade onix metadata ←
17:17:09 <dauwhe> ivan: Graham, do you agree?
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Unknown ivan: Graham, do you agree? ←
17:17:18 <dauwhe> Graham: yes, I do
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Unknown Graham: yes, I do ←
17:17:26 <dauwhe> ... some input from this IG might be useful
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... some input from this IG might be useful ←
17:17:34 <dauwhe> ... within bisg process
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... within bisg process ←
17:17:54 <dauwhe> ... no need to duplicate effort
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... no need to duplicate effort ←
17:17:59 <dauwhe> ivan: I'll help
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Unknown ivan: I'll help ←
17:18:16 <dauwhe> mgylling: you seem to have expected this
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Markus Gylling: you seem to have expected this ←
17:18:26 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: my point is that lots of people are already doing work
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: my point is that lots of people are already doing work ←
17:18:34 <dauwhe> ... the focus on ONIX here is misguided
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... the focus on ONIX here is misguided ←
17:18:46 <dauwhe> ... the W3C spans all these interest groups (lowercase)
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... the W3C spans all these interest groups (lowercase) ←
17:18:54 <dauwhe> ... libraries, commercial people, etc
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... libraries, commercial people, etc ←
17:19:00 <dauwhe> ... the web crosses all those areas
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... the web crosses all those areas ←
17:19:28 <dauwhe> ... if we exclude graham, the people at BISG are unaware of tim's work in library world with schema.org
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... if we exclude graham, the people at BISG are unaware of tim's work in library world with schema.org ←
17:19:34 <dauwhe> ... is there some matchmaking we can do?
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... is there some matchmaking we can do? ←
17:19:41 <dauwhe> mgylling: is w3c the vehicle?
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Markus Gylling: is w3c the vehicle? ←
17:19:48 <dauwhe> ivan: we can't federate all these groups
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Unknown ivan: we can't federate all these groups ←
17:19:57 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: w3c as intermediary
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: w3c as intermediary ←
17:20:08 <dauwhe> ivan: lots of tech here around semantic web
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Unknown ivan: lots of tech here around semantic web ←
17:20:15 <dauwhe> ... if issues come up
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... if issues come up ←
17:20:18 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
17:20:23 <tzviya> q+
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Unknown tzviya: q+ ←
17:20:27 <dauwhe> ... then me as former semweb activity lead can help
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... then me as former semweb activity lead can help ←
17:20:36 <dauwhe> ... but for this IG we should stop
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... but for this IG we should stop ←
17:20:45 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: we can be responsive but can't do proactive work
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: we can be responsive but can't do proactive work ←
17:20:49 <dauwhe> ivan: they are in driving seat
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Unknown ivan: they are in driving seat ←
17:21:23 <Zakim> - +44.788.775.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +44.788.775.aaaa ←
17:21:25 <dauwhe> ... looking at RDF-ization of ONIX
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... looking at RDF-ization of ONIX ←
17:21:41 <dauwhe> ... if there's an interest for it, it's not happening anywhere, it could happen here
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... if there's an interest for it, it's not happening anywhere, it could happen here ←
17:22:02 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is supportive of this idea
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is supportive of this idea ←
17:22:09 <dauwhe> ivan: This is Graham's hobby
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Unknown ivan: This is Graham's hobby ←
17:22:26 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is overloaded, an offer to help here could help
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is overloaded, an offer to help here could help ←
17:22:48 <dauwhe> mgylling: in the note, propose this as future activity?
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Markus Gylling: in the note, propose this as future activity? ←
17:22:56 <dauwhe> ivan: we should explore, not commit
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Unknown ivan: we should explore, not commit ←
17:23:09 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I want madi and tcole's perspective
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I want madi and tcole's perspective ←
17:23:24 <dauwhe> ... commercial pubs don't use or understand RDF
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... commercial pubs don't use or understand RDF ←
17:23:46 <dauwhe> madi: I think it's a great idea
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Unknown madi: I think it's a great idea ←
17:24:09 <dauwhe> ivan: schema.org will never take whole of ONIX
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Unknown ivan: schema.org will never take whole of ONIX ←
17:24:20 <dauwhe> madi: I assume we're talking about RDFa
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Unknown madi: I assume we're talking about RDFa ←
17:24:29 <dauwhe> ivan: RDFa is just an expression of an RDF model
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Unknown ivan: RDFa is just an expression of an RDF model ←
17:24:38 <dauwhe> ... can be expressed in RDFa or JSON-LD
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... can be expressed in RDFa or JSON-LD ←
17:24:48 <dauwhe> ... it can use some terms that schema.org has
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... it can use some terms that schema.org has ←
17:24:52 <dauwhe> ... but can't add terms
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... but can't add terms ←
17:25:21 <dauwhe> madi: start with RDFization but consumable by schema.org
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Unknown madi: start with RDFization but consumable by schema.org ←
17:25:29 <dauwhe> ... i know creativework has book
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... i know creativework has book ←
17:25:38 <dauwhe> ... I've beenl playing with google rich snippets
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... I've beenl playing with google rich snippets ←
17:25:56 <dauwhe> ... I want to take aspects of minimal book or publication, finding key metadata elements
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... I want to take aspects of minimal book or publication, finding key metadata elements ←
17:26:07 <dauwhe> ... in a rich snippet that would automate RDF from ONIX
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... in a rich snippet that would automate RDF from ONIX ←
17:26:12 <dauwhe> ... just a sliver of a subset
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... just a sliver of a subset ←
17:26:28 <dauwhe> ivan: there is an order here that should be kept
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Unknown ivan: there is an order here that should be kept ←
17:26:36 <dauwhe> ... by mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema
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... by mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema ←
17:26:43 <dauwhe> ... that means that subset is turned into RDF
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... that means that subset is turned into RDF ←
17:26:58 <fettes> q+
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Unknown fettes: q+ ←
17:27:00 <dauwhe> ... which means that a part of onix is already in RDF
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... which means that a part of onix is already in RDF ←
17:27:08 <dauwhe> ... once that work is done by another group
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... once that work is done by another group ←
17:27:20 <dauwhe> ... is there an interest in extending this to the whole of ONIX
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... is there an interest in extending this to the whole of ONIX ←
17:27:38 <dauwhe> ... BISG will do subset
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... BISG will do subset ←
17:27:50 <dauwhe> ... then we can see if extending to whole model is feasible
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... then we can see if extending to whole model is feasible ←
17:28:03 <dauwhe> TCole: I agree with Ivan
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Unknown TCole: I agree with Ivan ←
17:28:14 <dauwhe> ... don't take legacy format and turn to effort
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... don't take legacy format and turn to RDF ←
17:28:20 <dauwhe> ... effort with MARC was abandoned
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... effort with MARC was abandoned ←
17:28:34 <ivan> s/to effort/to RDF/
17:28:36 <dauwhe> ... effort with ??? is ongoing but problematic
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... effort with Bibframe is ongoing but problematic ←
17:28:46 <ivan> s/???/Bibframe/
17:29:03 <dauwhe> ... most successful has been map traditional library to schema.org and let some things go
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... most successful has been map traditional library to schema.org and let some things go ←
17:29:12 <dauwhe> ... same thing would happen with onix
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... same thing would happen with onix ←
17:29:15 <ivan> Bibframe: http://bibframe.org
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Unknown Bibframe: http://bibframe.org [ Scribe Assist by Unknown ivan ] ←
17:29:25 <dauwhe> ... some of onix you might not want in schema.org
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... some of onix you might not want in schema.org ←
17:29:33 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
17:29:48 <dauwhe> ???: from books that I see
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Unknown fettes: from books that I see ←
17:29:52 <dauwhe> ... looking at EPUB
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... looking at EPUB ←
17:30:01 <dauwhe> ... has vast metadata like DAISY terms
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... has vast metadata like DAISY terms ←
17:30:06 <tzviya> s/???/fettes
17:30:07 <dauwhe> ... and name/value pairs
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... and name/value pairs ←
17:30:11 <dauwhe> ... it's all random
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... it's all random ←
17:30:20 <dauwhe> ... there's rich language that no one uses
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... there's rich language that no one uses ←
17:30:23 <dauwhe> q+
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q+ ←
17:30:31 <tzviya> ack fettes
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Unknown tzviya: ack fettes ←
17:30:39 <ivan> Present+ Allastair Fettes
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Allastair Fettes ←
17:30:40 <dauwhe> ... identifier is most important thing and we don't trust it
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... identifier is most important thing and we don't trust it ←
17:30:59 <dauwhe> ... we can shoehorn interesting information into OPF file
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... we can shoehorn interesting information into OPF file ←
17:31:14 <dauwhe> ... it's just using meta name of property
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... it's just using meta name of property ←
17:31:24 <dauwhe> ... you can have registry of roles
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... you can have registry of roles ←
17:31:28 <dauwhe> ... ibooks:version
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... ibooks:version ←
17:31:48 <dauwhe> ... using vendor prefix then push to standard
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... using vendor prefix then push to standard ←
17:31:55 <dauwhe> tzviya: you're talking about package metadata
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Unknown tzviya: you're talking about package metadata ←
17:32:06 <dauwhe> ... but we're supplying you with ONIX which is better metadata
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... but we're supplying you with ONIX which is better metadata ←
17:32:08 <dauwhe> q-
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q- ←
17:32:21 <dauwhe> ... the amazon metadata is from ONIX
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... the amazon metadata is from ONIX ←
17:32:26 <dauwhe> ... that stuff is updated
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... that stuff is updated ←
17:32:43 <dauwhe> fettes: so book metadata is orphaned
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Unknown fettes: so book metadata is orphaned ←
17:33:01 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: we have same disconnect between commercial and library world
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: we have same disconnect between commercial and library world ←
17:33:27 <dauwhe> ... ??? made a comment about not getting article metadata about journals
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... ??? made a comment about not getting article metadata about journals ←
17:33:31 <tzviya> q-
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Unknown tzviya: q- ←
17:33:33 <astein> *Ayla
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Unknown astein: *Ayla ←
17:33:40 <dauwhe> ... because the systems are focused on titles and issues
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... because the systems are focused on titles and issues ←
17:33:53 <dauwhe> ... so the publisher has the metadata, but the article metadata is stripped out
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... so the publisher has the metadata, but the article metadata is stripped out ←
17:34:14 <dauwhe> ... by the metadata handoffs through intermediaries
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... by the metadata handoffs through intermediaries ←
17:34:20 <dkaplan3> q+
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Unknown dkaplan3: q+ ←
17:34:28 <dauwhe> ... lots of what in ONIX doesn't get to MARC (for example)
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... lots of what in ONIX doesn't get to MARC (for example) ←
17:34:40 <dauwhe> ... so library doesn't get rich metadata, even though publisher created it
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... so library doesn't get rich metadata, even though publisher created it ←
17:34:50 <astein> q+
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Unknown astein: q+ ←
17:34:56 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
17:35:02 <dauwhe> ... they have OCLC MARC record, but they have another one with lots of publisher metadata
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... they have OCLC MARC record, but they have another one with lots of publisher metadata ←
17:35:38 <dkaplan3> q-
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Unknown dkaplan3: q- ←
17:35:52 <mgylling> ack astein
Markus Gylling: ack astein ←
17:35:58 <astein> maybe
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Unknown astein: maybe ←
17:35:59 <astein> sorry!
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Unknown astein: sorry! ←
17:36:04 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: we need to move on
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: we need to move on ←
17:36:24 <dauwhe> ... the proposal with item one is that we should not pursue ONIX in schema.org
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... the proposal with item one is that we should not pursue ONIX in schema.org ←
17:36:28 <dauwhe> ... just be resource to BISG
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... just be resource to BISG ←
17:36:49 <dauwhe> ... don't want to complicate that one with Ivan's suggestion of RDFization of all of ONIX
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... don't want to complicate that one with Ivan's suggestion of RDFization of all of ONIX ←
17:37:05 <dauwhe> ... so we won't pursue #1
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... so we won't pursue #1 ←
17:37:25 <dauwhe> ... #2 gets at one aspect of Alistair's consistent use of identifiers
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... #2 gets at one aspect of Alistair's consistent use of identifiers ←
17:37:40 <dauwhe> ... let's separate those issues
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... let's separate those issues ←
17:37:52 <dauwhe> ... so we separate proper use of identifiers with URI
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... so we separate proper use of identifiers with URI ←
17:38:05 <dauwhe> ... is that the business of this group? Education?
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... is that the business of this group? Education? ←
17:38:17 <dauwhe> ivan: we collect existing documents
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Unknown ivan: we collect existing documents ←
17:38:31 <dauwhe> ... there's an RDFa primer
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... there's an RDFa primer ←
17:38:41 <dauwhe> ... there's a ??? URIs
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... there's a cool uris URIs ←
17:38:47 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/
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Unknown tzviya: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/ ←
17:39:01 <dauwhe> ... the issue is not covered, but the first thing is to collect those resources
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... the issue is not covered, but the first thing is to collect those resources ←
17:39:04 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/cooluris/
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Unknown tzviya: http://www.w3.org/TR/cooluris/ ←
17:39:09 <dauwhe> ... and then consider whether there's somthing missing
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... and then consider whether there's somthing missing ←
17:39:17 <dauwhe> s/???/cool uris/
17:39:23 <tzviya> s/???/cool
17:39:45 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: what do we need to do?
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: what do we need to do? ←
17:40:07 <dauwhe> ... can we assign some folks to look at this issue and report back?
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... can we assign some folks to look at this issue and report back? ←
17:40:25 <dauwhe> ivan: if at the end of that and some things that are not covered, this group can write more documents
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Unknown ivan: if at the end of that and some things that are not covered, this group can write more documents ←
17:40:31 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: +1
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: +1 ←
17:41:07 <dauwhe> Action: Bill_Kasdorf to lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for RDFa
ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for RDFa ←
17:41:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for rdfa [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-37 - Lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for rdfa [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07]. ←
17:41:20 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: call for volunteers
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: call for volunteers ←
17:41:43 <dauwhe> ... email Bill K. if you want to participate
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... email Bill K. if you want to participate ←
17:41:56 <dauwhe> ... do we need similar activity on use of URI
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... do we need similar activity on use of URI ←
17:42:03 <dauwhe> ivan: it's one thing
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Unknown ivan: it's one thing ←
17:42:16 <astein> Technical difficulties - I just wanted to add on to Bill's comment about publisher metadata earlier and the loss of information from the complicated ecosystem, that the worst offenders are from Open Access Journal publishers.
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Unknown astein: Technical difficulties - I just wanted to add on to Bill's comment about publisher metadata earlier and the loss of information from the complicated ecosystem, that the worst offenders are from Open Access Journal publishers. ←
17:42:38 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: the difference with URI issue is engaging with users of identifiers like crossref, editeur,
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: the difference with URI issue is engaging with users of identifiers like crossref, editeur, ←
17:43:02 <tzviya> q+
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Unknown tzviya: q+ ←
17:43:05 <dauwhe> ... get unanimity from governance groups to express to their users to use their identifiers as URIs
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... get unanimity from governance groups to express to their users to use their identifiers as URIs ←
17:43:10 <dauwhe> ivan: there's disagreement
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Unknown ivan: there's disagreement ←
17:43:19 <dauwhe> ... on how to handle this
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... on how to handle this ←
17:43:28 <dauwhe> ... for many they don't understand why this is important
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... for many they don't understand why this is important ←
17:43:34 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: they are realizing
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: they are realizing ←
17:43:41 <dauwhe> ivan: crossref is recognizing this
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Unknown ivan: crossref is recognizing this ←
17:43:53 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: update to ISBN has expanded guidance on this
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: update to ISBN has expanded guidance on this ←
17:44:04 <dauwhe> ivan: it's not just issue of having URI
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Unknown ivan: it's not just issue of having URI ←
17:44:13 <dauwhe> ... but what happens when I try to dereference
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... but what happens when I try to dereference ←
17:44:18 <dauwhe> ... there there are disagreements
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... there there are disagreements ←
17:44:27 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I want separate group on thaat
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I want separate group on thaat ←
17:44:35 <dauwhe> ivan: Phil Archer will want to participate
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Unknown ivan: Phil Archer will want to participate ←
17:44:42 <dauwhe> ... he's activity lead for data
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... he's activity lead for data ←
17:45:06 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: do I have the leeway to extend scope as far as I am able to?
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: do I have the leeway to extend scope as far as I am able to? ←
17:45:21 <dauwhe> ... I know CA data library site which uses DOI
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... I know CA data library site which uses DOI ←
17:45:29 <dauwhe> ... can I bring them into conversation?
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... can I bring them into conversation? ←
17:45:37 <dauwhe> ivan: I know people at Data Site
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Unknown ivan: I know people at Data Site ←
17:45:49 <dauwhe> ... they are not as clearly using DOIs as URIs like crossref
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... they are not as clearly using DOIs as URIs like crossref ←
17:45:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: it's separate registration agency
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: it's separate registration agency ←
17:46:06 <tzviya> ack tzviya
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Unknown tzviya: ack tzviya ←
17:46:12 <dauwhe> ivan: we want DOIs as URI, I'm not sure if Data Site does this
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Unknown ivan: we want DOIs as URI, I'm not sure if Data Site does this ←
17:46:19 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's document first
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Unknown tzviya: let's document first ←
17:46:29 <dauwhe> ... there are a lots of organizations
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... there are a lots of organizations ←
17:46:46 <dauwhe> ... let's pull them together at some point
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... let's pull them together at some point ←
17:46:57 <dauwhe> ... i think of that as stage two
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... i think of that as stage two ←
17:47:09 <dauwhe> ... I talked to Phil ARcher about this, he'll have a lot to say
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... I talked to Phil ARcher about this, he'll have a lot to say ←
17:47:19 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I see both action items as information gathering
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I see both action items as information gathering ←
17:47:25 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's finish something
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Unknown tzviya: let's finish something ←
17:47:48 <dauwhe> mgylling: the action is registered
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Markus Gylling: the action is registered ←
17:47:54 <dauwhe> ... the marching orders seem clear
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... the marching orders seem clear ←
17:48:05 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: and we separate the two
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: and we separate the two ←
17:48:52 <dauwhe> Action: Bill_Kasdorf to develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as URIs and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations
ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as URIs and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations ←
17:48:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as uris and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-38 - Develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as uris and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07]. ←
17:49:22 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: didn't get much feedback on github
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: didn't get much feedback on github ←
17:49:33 <dauwhe> ... rights metadata is important
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... rights metadata is important ←
17:49:40 <dauwhe> ... expressing in actionable way
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... expressing in actionable way ←
17:49:45 <dauwhe> .. they have two interests
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.. they have two interests ←
17:49:58 <dauwhe> ... one is how can I know at a granular level that I have the right to do X
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... one is how can I know at a granular level that I have the right to do X ←
17:50:05 <dauwhe> ... can I use a print image in my ebook?
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... can I use a print image in my ebook? ←
17:50:11 <dauwhe> ... goes beyond that to IP
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... goes beyond that to IP ←
17:50:20 <dauwhe> ... other question is how to monetize my IP
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... other question is how to monetize my IP ←
17:50:33 <dauwhe> ... how can I express rights on components of documents
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... how can I express rights on components of documents ←
17:50:42 <dauwhe> ... lets me police usage
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... lets me police usage ←
17:50:51 <dauwhe> ... can I license rights to this thing?
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... can I license rights to this thing? ←
17:50:59 <dauwhe> ... particularly important with images
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... particularly important with images ←
17:51:03 <ivan> q+
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Unknown ivan: q+ ←
17:51:10 <dauwhe> ... we're working with life magazine photo archive
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... we're working with life magazine photo archive ←
17:51:23 <dauwhe> ... they were losing lots of money every year
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... they were losing lots of money every year ←
17:51:28 <tzviya> q+
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Unknown tzviya: q+ ←
17:51:40 <dauwhe> ... intersects with royalty payments
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... intersects with royalty payments ←
17:52:03 <dauwhe> ... lots of folks working on this like IPTC
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... lots of folks working on this like IPTC ←
17:52:11 <dauwhe> ... working with W3C
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... working with W3C ←
17:52:14 <Karen_> q+
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Unknown Karen_: q+ ←
17:52:17 <dauwhe> ... ODRL and RightsML
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... ODRL and RightsML ←
17:52:41 <dauwhe> ... BISG has a new priority to look at this from author and agent perspective
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... BISG has a new priority to look at this from author and agent perspective ←
17:52:57 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
17:53:11 <dauwhe> ... IDEAlliance has three components: contractual, usage, monitoring
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... IDEAlliance has three components: contractual, usage, monitoring ←
17:53:26 <dauwhe> ... we might be able to help
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... we might be able to help ←
17:53:38 <dauwhe> ... create an infrastructure in web tech
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... create an infrastructure in web tech ←
17:53:52 <mgylling> ack ivan
Markus Gylling: ack ivan ←
17:53:58 <dauwhe> ivan: you scare me
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Unknown ivan: you scare me ←
17:54:07 <dauwhe> ... rights metadata
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... rights metadata ←
17:54:16 <dauwhe> ... there were only CGs at W3C
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... there were only CGs at W3C ←
17:54:21 <dauwhe> ... it's not technical
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... it's not technical ←
17:54:31 <dauwhe> ... you need lawyers
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... you need lawyers ←
17:54:54 <dauwhe> ... and we don't have lawyers
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... and we don't have lawyers ←
17:55:06 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'm thinking infrastructure
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I'm thinking infrastructure ←
17:55:18 <dauwhe> ivan: setting up another CG can be done
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Unknown ivan: setting up another CG can be done ←
17:55:32 <dauwhe> ... you need to talk to people who are already doing it
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... you need to talk to people who are already doing it ←
17:55:37 <dauwhe> ... I don't know what they would say
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... I don't know what they would say ←
17:55:45 <Zakim> - +1.217.721.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.217.721.aabb ←
17:55:51 <dauwhe> ... to turn it into w3c work item is a different thing
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... to turn it into w3c work item is a different thing ←
17:56:12 <dauwhe> ... if you have a CG then W3C does not endorse work
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... if you have a CG then W3C does not endorse work ←
17:56:33 <dauwhe> ... results may leave CG and go into other parts of W3C
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... results may leave CG and go into other parts of W3C ←
17:56:46 <dauwhe> ... endorsement in legal sphere is very tricky
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... endorsement in legal sphere is very tricky ←
17:57:03 <dauwhe> Karen_: DOn't know about any work in this area
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Unknown Karen_: DOn't know about any work in this area ←
17:57:21 <dauwhe> liam_: you must distinguish between rights identification and rights management
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Unknown liam_: you must distinguish between rights identification and rights management ←
17:57:26 <Karen_> s/Don't know about any work in this area at W3C
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Unknown Karen_: s/Don't know about any work in this area at W3C ←
17:57:44 <dauwhe> liam_: RDF says who the author is
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Unknown liam_: RDF says who the author is ←
17:57:51 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: but doesn't describe contract
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: but doesn't describe contract ←
17:58:21 <dauwhe> liam_: I agree with Ivan that finding a way of describing moral rights internationally in RDF, XML, or animated cat GIFs is scary
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Unknown liam_: I agree with Ivan that finding a way of describing moral rights internationally in RDF, XML, or animated cat GIFs is scary ←
17:58:34 <dauwhe> ... won't be achievable
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... won't be achievable ←
17:58:54 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'm learning that my tendancy to bring siloed people together isn't a good fit for w3c
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I'm learning that my tendancy to bring siloed people together isn't a good fit for w3c ←
17:58:57 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't agree
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Unknown ivan: I don't agree ←
17:59:04 <dauwhe> ... we can bring together different parties
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... we can bring together different parties ←
17:59:10 <dauwhe> ... OA group started that way
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... OA group started that way ←
17:59:17 <astein> Question: something like the Creative Commons licenses beyond the open access sphere but expanded to a metadata scheme?
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Unknown Question: something like the Creative Commons licenses beyond the open access sphere but expanded to a metadata scheme? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown astein ] ←
17:59:22 <dauwhe> ... lots of discussion to bring people together
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... lots of discussion to bring people together ←
17:59:31 <dauwhe> ... is a success now
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... is a success now ←
17:59:47 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: started with OA CG, now a WG
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: started with OA CG, now a WG ←
17:59:50 <dauwhe> ivan: yes
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Unknown ivan: yes ←
18:00:08 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: is there a role for this IG in that?
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: is there a role for this IG in that? ←
18:00:58 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
18:01:22 <Karen_> q_
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Unknown Karen_: q_ ←
18:01:25 <Karen_> q-
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Unknown Karen_: q- ←
18:01:32 <astein> Yes!
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Unknown astein: Yes! ←
18:01:34 <astein> that's Ayla
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Unknown astein: that's Ayla ←
18:01:50 <astein> I'm having microphone issues
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Unknown astein: I'm having microphone issues ←
18:01:55 <astein> I'm just trying to clarify
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Unknown astein: I'm just trying to clarify ←
18:02:02 <ivan> Present+ Ayla_Stein
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Ayla_Stein ←
18:02:08 <dauwhe> Karen_: copyright clearance center does this
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Unknown Karen_: copyright clearance center does this ←
18:02:17 <dauwhe> ... they are member of this group
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... they are member of this group ←
18:02:24 <dauwhe> ... talk to her
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... talk to her ←
18:02:32 <dauwhe> ivan: CC in one sense is good example
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Unknown ivan: CC in one sense is good example ←
18:02:44 <dauwhe> ... all licenses are espressed in RDF
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... all licenses are espressed in RDF ←
18:02:50 <dauwhe> ... they helped start RDFa
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... they helped start RDFa ←
18:03:03 <dauwhe> ... they way they worked is with lawyers
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... they way they worked is with lawyers ←
18:03:16 <dauwhe> ... it's legal issues and not technical issues
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... it's legal issues and not technical issues ←
18:03:23 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: liam, could you rephrase
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: liam, could you rephrase ←
18:03:37 <dauwhe> liam_: rights identification but not rights management
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Unknown liam_: rights identification but not rights management ←
18:03:53 <dauwhe> ... legal issues in both parts
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... legal issues in both parts ←
18:04:11 <dauwhe> tzviya: will need lawyer to help with tagging
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Unknown tzviya: will need lawyer to help with tagging ←
18:04:18 <dauwhe> ivan: you need international lawyers
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Unknown ivan: you need international lawyers ←
18:04:26 <dauwhe> liam_: I run stock image company
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Unknown liam_: I run stock image company ←
18:04:37 <dauwhe> ... I scan out-of-copyright books
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... I scan out-of-copyright books ←
18:04:54 <dauwhe> ... wikipedia articles about law are not by lawyers
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... wikipedia articles about law are not by lawyers ←
18:05:04 <dauwhe> ... copyright articles are similar
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... copyright articles are similar ←
18:05:05 <astein> Could we invite ALA's OITP or a Copyright/Intellectual Property/Law Librarian to collaborate on this?
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Unknown astein: Could we invite ALA's OITP or a Copyright/Intellectual Property/Law Librarian to collaborate on this? ←
18:05:35 <dauwhe> ... legal landscape is changing rapidly
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... legal landscape is changing rapidly ←
18:05:52 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: whether or not have this as potential activity
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: whether or not have this as potential activity ←
18:06:20 <dauwhe> ... do we want to include an activity that would try to bring together groups working on rights
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... do we want to include an activity that would try to bring together groups working on rights ←
18:06:39 <ivan> q+
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Unknown ivan: q+ ←
18:06:41 <dauwhe> q+
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q+ ←
18:06:46 <tzviya> ack tzviya
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Unknown tzviya: ack tzviya ←
18:06:52 <ivan> ack tzviya
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Unknown ivan: ack tzviya ←
18:06:58 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is one example of granular metadata
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Unknown tzviya: this is one example of granular metadata ←
18:07:04 <dauwhe> ... if we form a CG about this
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... if we form a CG about this ←
18:07:13 <dauwhe> ... we might have to for every other sort of granular metadata
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... we might have to for every other sort of granular metadata ←
18:07:24 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: this is picking something to focus on that's important
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: this is picking something to focus on that's important ←
18:07:40 <dauwhe> tzviya: the other possibility is that this can be addressed by annotations
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Unknown tzviya: the other possibility is that this can be addressed by annotations ←
18:07:43 <dauwhe> ivan: no
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Unknown ivan: no ←
18:07:56 <dauwhe> ... annotations give you framework to express something, but not what to express
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... annotations give you framework to express something, but not what to express ←
18:08:05 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: interoperability is the important thing
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: interoperability is the important thing ←
18:08:17 <dauwhe> ... it's so random it's not interoperable
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... it's so random it's not interoperable ←
18:08:24 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
18:08:30 <mgylling> ack ivan
Markus Gylling: ack ivan ←
18:08:30 <dauwhe> ... w3c can build infrastructure to make it interoperable
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... w3c can build infrastructure to make it interoperable ←
18:08:43 <astein> or IFLA to get this advice
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Unknown astein: or IFLA to get this advice ←
18:08:50 <dauwhe> ivan: having a CG that tries to reconcile these different vocabularies is a useful thing
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Unknown ivan: having a CG that tries to reconcile these different vocabularies is a useful thing ←
18:08:55 <madi> q+
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Unknown madi: q+ ←
18:09:07 <dauwhe> ... to form that CG someone needs to get these partners to accept to work together
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... to form that CG someone needs to get these partners to accept to work together ←
18:09:19 <dauwhe> ... that somebody would be Bill Kasdorf
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... that somebody would be Bill Kasdorf ←
18:09:29 <dauwhe> ... whether you need backing of IG to do that is up to you
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... whether you need backing of IG to do that is up to you ←
18:09:45 <dauwhe> ... that's where IG would stop
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... that's where IG would stop ←
18:09:59 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: let me suggest this
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: let me suggest this ←
18:10:07 <dauwhe> ... if there's an interest in this group
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... if there's an interest in this group ←
18:10:14 <dauwhe> ... is it worth spending my time on?
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... is it worth spending my time on? ←
18:10:23 <dauwhe> ... I am in touch with these people
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... I am in touch with these people ←
18:10:59 <dauwhe> tzviya: none of those people are involved in this group
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Unknown tzviya: none of those people are involved in this group ←
18:11:03 <dauwhe> ivan: except heather
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Unknown ivan: except heather ←
18:11:16 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: BISG is also active in this group
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: BISG is also active in this group ←
18:11:35 <dauwhe> ... there are stakeholders in those groups who may be w3c members
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... there are stakeholders in those groups who may be w3c members ←
18:11:39 <mgylling> ack dauwhe
Markus Gylling: ack dauwhe ←
18:11:44 <dauwhe> ... IPTC has thomson reuters
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... IPTC has thomson reuters ←
18:12:32 <tzviya> dauwhe: this has taken a lot of time today and will take a lot of time if we invest time
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Unknown dauwhe: this has taken a lot of time today and will take a lot of time if we invest time [ Scribe Assist by Unknown tzviya ] ←
18:12:39 <mgylling> ack liam
Markus Gylling: ack liam ←
18:12:39 <Zakim> liam_, you wanted to say expression facility might be OK for publisher-provided info
Zakim IRC Bot: liam_, you wanted to say expression facility might be OK for publisher-provided info ←
18:12:50 <dauwhe> liam: I'd like to retract further
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Unknown liam: I'd like to retract further ←
18:12:58 <dauwhe> ... we had the web fonts work
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... we had the web fonts work ←
18:13:03 <dauwhe> ... there are some similar issues
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... there are some similar issues ←
18:13:09 <tzviya> ...we are a group that supports incorporating into web and can help once these groups figure out how they will work together
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Unknown tzviya: ...we are a group that supports incorporating into web and can help once these groups figure out how they will work together ←
18:13:14 <dauwhe> ... the font companies had to come to an agreement about font piracy
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... the font companies had to come to an agreement about font piracy ←
18:13:35 <dauwhe> ... people would download fonts intentionally or unintentionally
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... people would download fonts intentionally or unintentionally ←
18:13:44 <dauwhe> ... what we did was two-fold
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... what we did was two-fold ←
18:13:54 <dauwhe> ... WOFF fonts dont' work as desktop font
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... WOFF fonts dont' work as desktop font ←
18:14:12 <dauwhe> ... you'd have to use program, which is legal evidence of willful intent
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... you'd have to use program, which is legal evidence of willful intent ←
18:14:30 <dauwhe> ... it's like a fence around a swimming pool, which is an attractive nuisance in legal technology
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... it's like a fence around a swimming pool, which is an attractive nuisance in legal technology ←
18:14:41 <dauwhe> ... by showing willful intent, then you can prosecute
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... by showing willful intent, then you can prosecute ←
18:14:56 <dauwhe> ... and there is metadata in the fonts that includes info about the EULA
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... and there is metadata in the fonts that includes info about the EULA ←
18:15:08 <dauwhe> ... there is metadata in there that expresses rights
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... there is metadata in there that expresses rights ←
18:15:18 <dauwhe> ... but we didn't talk about the interpretation of those rights
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... but we didn't talk about the interpretation of those rights ←
18:15:25 <dauwhe> ... which were in XML by the way
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... which were in XML by the way ←
18:15:33 <dauwhe> ... but we don't say anthing about it
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... but we don't say anthing about it ←
18:15:40 <dauwhe> ... that could go a long way to being useful
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... that could go a long way to being useful ←
18:15:45 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that's a useful analogy
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: that's a useful analogy ←
18:15:51 <dauwhe> liam: that is the first point
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Unknown liam: that is the first point ←
18:16:05 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that outreach may not be about some major diplomatic effort
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: that outreach may not be about some major diplomatic effort ←
18:16:13 <dauwhe> ... but that we know you're working on this issue
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... but that we know you're working on this issue ←
18:16:19 <dauwhe> ... but are there issues with the web?
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... but are there issues with the web? ←
18:16:40 <dauwhe> ... this is why it's a metadata question--do we have a mechanism for associating metadata?
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... this is why it's a metadata question--do we have a mechanism for associating metadata? ←
18:16:58 <dauwhe> ivan: in case of WOFF, there were issues with how to package fonts
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Unknown ivan: in case of WOFF, there were issues with how to package fonts ←
18:17:12 <dauwhe> ... that's not the case here. We know where to put metadata if we have vocab
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... that's not the case here. We know where to put metadata if we have vocab ←
18:17:29 <dauwhe> ... but the vocab is what we don't have, and it's a translation of legal terms
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... but the vocab is what we don't have, and it's a translation of legal terms ←
18:17:34 <dauwhe> ... epub has too much metadata
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... epub has too much metadata ←
18:17:48 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: epub can have rights metadata
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: epub can have rights metadata ←
18:18:03 <dauwhe> ivan: it's not up to us to restrict what metadata you can use
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Unknown ivan: it's not up to us to restrict what metadata you can use ←
18:18:16 <dauwhe> liam: if you look at fonts in firefox, it has areas to display metadata
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Unknown liam: if you look at fonts in firefox, it has areas to display metadata ←
18:18:24 <dauwhe> ... whether it's worth going there I don't know
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... whether it's worth going there I don't know ←
18:18:31 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
18:18:34 <mgylling> ack madi
Markus Gylling: ack madi ←
18:18:36 <dauwhe> ... rights expression CG can bring interesting peopoe
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... rights expression CG can bring interesting peopoe ←
18:18:46 <dauwhe> madi: it is a huge headache
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Unknown madi: it is a huge headache ←
18:18:57 <dauwhe> ... if we succeed we'd accomplish something huge
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... if we succeed we'd accomplish something huge ←
18:19:02 <dauwhe> ... but I don't think it's likely
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... but I don't think it's likely ←
18:19:16 <dauwhe> ... lawyers don't think legal expression can be standardized
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... lawyers don't think legal expression can be standardized ←
18:19:25 <dauwhe> ... so they resist these vocabularies
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... so they resist these vocabularies ←
18:19:46 <dauwhe> ... maybe a CG with low expectations?
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... maybe a CG with low expectations? ←
18:19:56 <dauwhe> ... we can't do anything in a year
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... we can't do anything in a year ←
18:20:10 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: IDEAlliance is establishing a vocab to do three things
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: IDEAlliance is establishing a vocab to do three things ←
18:20:18 <dauwhe> ... one: do you have rights? Y/N
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... one: do you have rights? Y/N ←
18:20:34 <dauwhe> ... two: you have rights under condition
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... two: you have rights under condition ←
18:20:39 <dauwhe> ... third: consult the lawyer
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... third: consult the lawyer ←
18:20:53 <dauwhe> tzviya: that would be insufficient for most publishers
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Unknown tzviya: that would be insufficient for most publishers ←
18:21:06 <dauwhe> ... due to restrictions like fixed durations and so on
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... due to restrictions like fixed durations and so on ←
18:21:12 <dauwhe> ... this is too out of schope
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... this is too out of scope ←
18:21:16 <dauwhe> s/schope/scope/
18:21:32 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I just think this is important
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: I just think this is important ←
18:21:49 <dauwhe> liam: if you make a CG I'll be in it
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Unknown liam: if you make a CG I'll be in it ←
18:22:13 <astein> conference ribbons
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Unknown astein: conference ribbons ←
18:22:15 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: is that OK with you?
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: is that OK with you? ←
18:22:22 <dauwhe> madi: we're working on it here for years
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Unknown madi: we're working on it here for years ←
18:22:33 <dauwhe> ... haven't moved the needle very far
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... haven't moved the needle very far ←
18:22:45 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
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Unknown ivan: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
18:22:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan ←
18:22:51 <dauwhe> mgylling: if your friends want to do a CG that's fine
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Markus Gylling: if your friends want to do a CG that's fine ←
18:23:04 <dauwhe> mgylling: I think we're about to end the session
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Markus Gylling: I think we're about to end the session ←
18:23:12 <dauwhe> ... do you want other suggestions?
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... do you want other suggestions? ←
18:23:51 <dauwhe> ivan: let's be realistic. to do both URI and RDF outreach docs is already a tall order
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Unknown ivan: let's be realistic. to do both URI and RDF outreach docs is already a tall order ←
18:23:57 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: and those would be good outcomes
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: and those would be good outcomes ←
18:24:08 <dauwhe> tzviya: we already have enough to do
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Unknown tzviya: we already have enough to do ←
18:24:13 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: is there consensus?
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: is there consensus? ←
18:24:15 <dauwhe> all: yes
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Unknown all: yes ←
18:24:25 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: so we'll focus on these
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: so we'll focus on these ←
18:24:38 <dauwhe> mgylling: it's 11:24, we're re-convening at 1PM
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Markus Gylling: it's 11:24, we're re-convening at 1PM ←
18:25:10 <dauwhe> mgylling: cindy and richard will come at 3PM
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Markus Gylling: cindy and richard will come at 3PM ←
18:25:19 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
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Unknown ivan: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
18:25:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan ←
18:25:28 <dauwhe> break type="lunch"
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break type="lunch" ←
18:25:35 <Zakim> -astein
Zakim IRC Bot: -astein ←
18:25:55 <Zakim> -madi
Zakim IRC Bot: -madi ←
19:58:48 <ivan> Topic: Accessibility (meeting with UUAG)
(No events recorded for 92 minutes)
19:58:56 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
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Unknown ivan: zakim, who is here? ←
19:58:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Seattle
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Seattle ←
19:58:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see mgylling, pkra, bradk__, dauwhe, tzviya, ivan, iank_, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see mgylling, pkra, bradk__, dauwhe, tzviya, ivan, iank_, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot ←
20:01:04 <Zakim> +pkra
Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra ←
20:02:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
20:02:56 <ivan> Present+ Jeanne_Spellman
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Jeanne_Spellman ←
20:03:50 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben De Meester
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Unknown bjdmeest: Present+ Ben De Meester ←
20:03:57 <ivan> scribenick: bjdmeest
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(Scribe set to Unknown bjdmeest)
20:05:58 <bjdmeest> mgylling: the plan is for Deborah to update us
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Markus Gylling: the plan is for Deborah to update us ←
20:06:10 <bjdmeest> [introductions]
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[introductions] ←
20:06:12 <Jan> zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jutta
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Unknown Jan: zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jutta ←
20:06:13 <Zakim> +Jutta; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Jutta; got it ←
20:06:52 <Jan> Jan Richards
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Unknown Jan: Jan Richards ←
20:08:18 <Jan> Jutta Treviranus
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Unknown Jan: Jutta Treviranus ←
20:08:48 <pkra> Present+ Peter Krautzberger
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Unknown pkra: Present+ Peter Krautzberger ←
20:08:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> Robin Seaman
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: Robin Seaman ←
20:09:25 <bjdmeest> mgylling: Deborah, would you recap the previous descussions, to get everyone up to date?
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Markus Gylling: Deborah, would you recap the previous descussions, to get everyone up to date? ←
20:09:28 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
Zakim IRC Bot: +Tim_Boland ←
20:09:32 <ivan> Present+ Susann_Keohane
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Susann_Keohane ←
20:09:35 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: there were a couple of meetings
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Unknown dkaplan: there were a couple of meetings ←
20:09:43 <bjdmeest> ... about: what should we do?
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... about: what should we do? ←
20:09:55 <bjdmeest> ... Charles and I became heads of the accessibility task force
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... Charles and I became heads of the accessibility task force ←
20:10:27 <Jutta> Jutta Treviranus, Chair WAI ATAG, Director Inclusive Design Research Centre, OCAD University
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Unknown Jutta: Jutta Treviranus, Chair WAI ATAG, Director Inclusive Design Research Centre, OCAD University ←
20:10:36 <bjdmeest> ... together with others: they would explain how they would work about accessiblility
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... together with others: they would explain how they would work about accessiblility ←
20:10:59 <bjdmeest> ... they have been looking at techniques: this is fine, this is not (needs expanding)
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... they have been looking at techniques: this is fine, this is not (needs expanding) ←
20:11:31 <bjdmeest> ???: they got a lot of puswhback by W3C, wanted more use cases
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Unknown clapierre: they got a lot of pushback by W3C WCAG WG, wanted more use cases ←
20:11:44 <dauwhe> s/???/clapierre/
20:11:50 <tzviya> s/???/clapierre
20:12:03 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: so, our idea is to start that process for digital publishing, mirrorring that effort
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Unknown dkaplan: so, our idea is to start that process for digital publishing, mirrorring that effort ←
20:12:04 <jeanne> s/puswhback by W3C/pushback by W3C WCAG WG
20:12:27 <bjdmeest> ... question: what would be most helpfull when we start that process?
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... question: what would be most helpfull when we start that process? ←
20:12:55 <bjdmeest> Jan: we deal with any tool that is used by authors in order to produce a webbased experience for another user (def authoring tool)
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Unknown Jan: we deal with any tool that is used by authors in order to produce a webbased experience for another user (def authoring tool) ←
20:13:10 <bjdmeest> ... not considering changing your own experience
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... not considering changing your own experience ←
20:13:34 <bjdmeest> ... a lot of experience, guidelines, with a wide variety (plugins, CMS, Dreamweaver, blogs...)
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... a lot of experience, guidelines, with a wide variety (plugins, CMS, Dreamweaver, blogs...) ←
20:13:45 <bjdmeest> ... we think DPUB is covered, so a review would be usefull
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... we think DPUB is covered, so a review would be usefull ←
20:13:53 <bjdmeest> ... there is a ref doc, examples
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... there is a ref doc, examples ←
20:14:00 <bjdmeest> ... so DPUB examples would be very useful
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... so DPUB examples would be very useful ←
20:14:14 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20/
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Unknown tzviya: http://www.w3.org/TR/IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20/ ←
20:14:21 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: If we wanted to look into DPUB examples, or existing examples?
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Unknown dkaplan: If we wanted to look into DPUB examples, or existing examples? ←
20:14:30 <jeanne> also Overview of ATAG -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/atag-glance.php
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Unknown jeanne: also Overview of ATAG -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/atag-glance.php ←
20:14:44 <bjdmeest> Jan: we have something like: have checks for accessibility, varies a whole lot
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Unknown Jan: we have something like: have checks for accessibility, varies a whole lot ←
20:15:00 <bjdmeest> ... we don't do techniques, but we provide examples of what if might look like
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... we don't do techniques, but we provide examples of what if might look like ←
20:15:20 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
20:15:30 <bjdmeest> ... there was an old document about techniques, but there was confusion, so we changed the name to 'implementing'
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... there was an old document about techniques, but there was confusion, so we changed the name to 'implementing' ←
20:15:56 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: if we look into those documents, and find stuff that might be expanded, how to do that?
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Unknown dkaplan: if we look into those documents, and find stuff that might be expanded, how to do that? ←
20:16:55 <bjdmeest> Jan: what will hopefully happen, is that we get new examples for DPUB (nicely explained) for success criteria eg 3.1.1, and that will be put into the doc, gets into new publication (this doc is a note)
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Unknown Jan: what will hopefully happen, is that we get new examples for DPUB (nicely explained) for success criteria eg 3.1.1, and that will be put into the doc, gets into new publication (this doc is a note) ←
20:17:05 <bjdmeest> ... there is no deadline
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... there is no deadline ←
20:17:13 <bjdmeest> ... the doc is called Implementing ATAG
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... the doc is called Implementing ATAG ←
20:17:18 <bjdmeest> ... ATAG has 2 main parts
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... ATAG has 2 main parts ←
20:17:36 <bjdmeest> ... what should you do in content to make that content rendered accessible?
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... what should you do in content to make that content rendered accessible? ←
20:17:54 <bjdmeest> part A: author interface needs to be accessible
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part A: author interface needs to be accessible ←
20:18:34 <bjdmeest> part B: production accessibility
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part B: production accessibility ←
20:19:49 <bjdmeest> Jan: it is more important for the used tools to support accessibility, then that a group publishes accessibility guidelines
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Unknown Jan: it is more important for the used tools to support accessibility, then that a group publishes accessibility guidelines ←
20:20:46 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
Zakim IRC Bot: -Tim_Boland ←
20:20:50 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: how do you make an interface accessible?
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Unknown dkaplan: how do you make an interface accessible? ←
20:21:08 <bjdmeest> Jan: most will involve part A, our first guideline is: meet WCAG
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Unknown Jan: most will involve part A, our first guideline is: meet WCAG ←
20:21:22 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: are there specific needs for DPUB about what is produced?
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Unknown dkaplan: are there specific needs for DPUB about what is produced? ←
20:21:37 <bjdmeest> ... is at the publishers level
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... is at the publishers level ←
20:21:48 <bjdmeest> Jan: consumers are tool devs (microsoft, adobe, ...)
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Unknown Jan: consumers are tool devs (microsoft, adobe, ...) ←
20:22:12 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: the reason why this is relevant, because a lot of tools are built inhouse, to meet publishing needs
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Unknown dkaplan: the reason why this is relevant, because a lot of tools are built inhouse, to meet publishing needs ←
20:22:30 <bjdmeest> ... not just aimed at generic content, aimed at workflow
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... not just aimed at generic content, aimed at workflow ←
20:22:57 <bjdmeest> Jan: if you read the doc, so many support the ease of user experience
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Unknown Jan: if you read the doc, so many support the ease of user experience ←
20:23:12 <bjdmeest> ... if tools are not accessible, a human is needed to fix stuff later on
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... if tools are not accessible, a human is needed to fix stuff later on ←
20:23:32 <bjdmeest> ... if you are creating a long description, that needs to be stored and reused as much as possible
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... if you are creating a long description, that needs to be stored and reused as much as possible ←
20:23:42 <tzviya> q+
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Unknown tzviya: q+ ←
20:24:05 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: that is mostly what i think about in DPUB: creators have a vast amount of images, the company that is creating the tool has no idea how to tag those images
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Unknown dkaplan: that is mostly what i think about in DPUB: creators have a vast amount of images, the company that is creating the tool has no idea how to tag those images ←
20:24:19 <bjdmeest> ... that is a unique req
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... that is a unique req ←
20:24:21 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
20:24:43 <bjdmeest> Jan: You won't find something like: content HAS to comply to... that is impossible to enforce.
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Unknown Jan: You won't find something like: content HAS to comply to... that is impossible to enforce. ←
20:24:55 <bjdmeest> ... we try to flexible on the design of the doc
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... we try to flexible on the design of the doc ←
20:24:56 <mgylling> ack tzviya
Markus Gylling: ack tzviya ←
20:25:40 <bjdmeest> tzviya: if worked for a publisher for 14 years, where would this fit? because I have never encountered something like this, eg, an image _must_ have an alt text
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Unknown tzviya: if worked for a publisher for 14 years, where would this fit? because I have never encountered something like this, eg, an image _must_ have an alt text ←
20:25:49 <bjdmeest> Jan: it is more about guidelines, not rules
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Unknown Jan: it is more about guidelines, not rules ←
20:26:13 <bjdmeest> ... eg not a government legislation (thou shalt not)
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... eg not a government legislation (thou shalt not) ←
20:26:24 <bjdmeest> tzviya: not even a guideline encountered
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Unknown tzviya: not even a guideline encountered ←
20:26:46 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: eg, word does do grammatic checking, but no accessible checking
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Unknown dkaplan: eg, word does do grammatic checking, but no accessible checking ←
20:27:09 <bjdmeest> Jan: they do have an accessibility checker, hard to turn on, but it exists
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Unknown Jan: they do have an accessibility checker, hard to turn on, but it exists ←
20:27:24 <bjdmeest> tzviya: point is that publishers probably don't know about this
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Unknown tzviya: point is that publishers probably don't know about this ←
20:27:32 <bjdmeest> Jan: this doc is aimed to tool devs
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Unknown Jan: this doc is aimed to tool devs ←
20:27:53 <bjdmeest> ... why use tooling: to hide ugly details
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... why use tooling: to hide ugly details ←
20:28:03 <bjdmeest> ... we say: there is an extra accessible layer on top
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... we say: there is an extra accessible layer on top ←
20:28:12 <dkaplan3> q+
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Unknown dkaplan3: q+ ←
20:28:17 <bjdmeest> jeanne: the text book publishers are going to be more aware of this
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Unknown jeanne: the text book publishers are going to be more aware of this ←
20:28:31 <bjdmeest> tzviya: i am part, no they are not
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Unknown tzviya: i am part, no they are not ←
20:28:38 <bjdmeest> jeanne: there are legal requirements
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Unknown jeanne: there are legal requirements ←
20:28:48 <bjdmeest> Jan: ATAG is not well know compared to WCAG
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Unknown Jan: ATAG is not well know compared to WCAG ←
20:28:59 <ivan> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Frederick_Hirsch ←
20:29:16 <bjdmeest> Jeanne: there are legal reqs for eg students with disabilities, we try to make it easier for people to do the right thing
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Unknown Jeanne: there are legal reqs for eg students with disabilities, we try to make it easier for people to do the right thing ←
20:29:27 <bjdmeest> ... there is a big market for accessibility
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... there is a big market for accessibility ←
20:29:36 <mgylling> ack dkaplan
Markus Gylling: ack dkaplan ←
20:29:40 <bjdmeest> ... an opportunity
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... an opportunity ←
20:29:58 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: is ATAG only intended for the authoring tools, or also for the conversion tools?
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Unknown dkaplan: is ATAG only intended for the authoring tools, or also for the conversion tools? ←
20:30:18 <bjdmeest> Jan: it does talk about conversion, section about conserving accessibility, sometimes that cannot be fully automated
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Unknown Jan: it does talk about conversion, section about conserving accessibility, sometimes that cannot be fully automated ←
20:30:33 <bjdmeest> ... sometimes, prompts are needed, human intervention
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... sometimes, prompts are needed, human intervention ←
20:30:35 <pkra> wordpress and OERpub editor are good examples for simple approaches with high "conversion rates" (i..e, making users actually input the content)
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Unknown pkra: wordpress and OERpub editor are good examples for simple approaches with high "conversion rates" (i..e, making users actually input the content) ←
20:31:11 <bjdmeest> ... we call those: recoding transformations, there is also structural transformations, and 'pretty print' transformations
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... we call those: recoding transformations, there is also structural transformations, and 'pretty print' transformations ←
20:31:31 <bjdmeest> mgylling: you are in CR, ammending to the current doc is not an issue?
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Markus Gylling: you are in CR, ammending to the current doc is not an issue? ←
20:31:33 <bjdmeest> Jan: correct
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Unknown Jan: correct ←
20:31:55 <bjdmeest> mgylling: dkaplan, you wanted to add to this doc?
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Markus Gylling: dkaplan, you wanted to add to this doc? ←
20:32:00 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: yes, mostly examples
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Unknown dkaplan: yes, mostly examples ←
20:32:08 <bjdmeest> mgylling: what is the concrete approach?
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Markus Gylling: what is the concrete approach? ←
20:32:40 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: after talking to cathy and kim, asking: how much time into this? amswer: 2-8 hours a week
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Unknown dkaplan: after talking to cathy and kim, asking: how much time into this? amswer: 2-8 hours a week ←
20:33:10 <bjdmeest> ... they wanted as much accessibility in there as possible, very explicit workflow (why do we change something)
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... they wanted as much accessibility in there as possible, very explicit workflow (why do we change something) ←
20:33:34 <bjdmeest> Jan: techniques are special in WCAG, sufficient techniques, advisory techniques,
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Unknown Jan: techniques are special in WCAG, sufficient techniques, advisory techniques, ←
20:33:41 <bjdmeest> ... there is more process around that
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... there is more process around that ←
20:33:58 <bjdmeest> ... ;you would just send us examples, and then it is published
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... ;you would just send us examples, and then it is published ←
20:34:17 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: there should be a wordsmith expert
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Unknown dkaplan: there should be a wordsmith expert ←
20:34:33 <bjdmeest> ... there was a lot of misunderstanding the specific language for a specific framework
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... there was a lot of misunderstanding the specific language for a specific framework ←
20:34:39 <bjdmeest> ... we need help on that for WCAG
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... we need help on that for WCAG ←
20:34:45 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
20:35:05 <bjdmeest> Jeanne: idea: why not just write a note: DPUB using ATAG and/or accessibility guideline practices
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Unknown Jeanne: idea: why not just write a note: DPUB using ATAG and/or accessibility guideline practices ←
20:35:15 <bjdmeest> ... you could focus on DPUB, relevant to the process
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... you could focus on DPUB, relevant to the process ←
20:35:24 <bjdmeest> ... then you have a single linking point
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... then you have a single linking point ←
20:35:37 <bjdmeest> ... and it would be _your_ note, without fuzziness of language
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... and it would be _your_ note, without fuzziness of language ←
20:35:53 <bjdmeest> ... and it can refer to ATAG, WCAG, ...
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... and it can refer to ATAG, WCAG, ... ←
20:36:19 <bjdmeest> ... people could go to that one, in DPUB speak
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... people could go to that one, in DPUB speak ←
20:37:01 <bjdmeest> mgylling: about fixed-layout ebooks: in accessibility, it might be horrible (tool that exports fixed epub is horrible)
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Markus Gylling: about fixed-layout ebooks: in accessibility, it might be horrible (tool that exports fixed epub is horrible) ←
20:37:16 <bjdmeest> ... contextualized note could go very deep into this
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... contextualized note could go very deep into this ←
20:38:13 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: [superseded notices is not clear]
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Unknown dkaplan: [superseded notices is not clear] ←
20:38:27 <bjdmeest> ... would a separate note get the right attention
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... would a separate note get the right attention ←
20:38:36 <bjdmeest> clapierre: could there be a dual link from ATAG
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Unknown clapierre: could there be a dual link from ATAG ←
20:38:45 <bjdmeest> Jan: we could
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Unknown Jan: we could ←
20:38:59 <bjdmeest> ... we know about fixed layout
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... we know about fixed layout ←
20:39:26 <bjdmeest> ... a remark: ATAG doesn't judge (what a flash tool?! shame on you!), it guides the user as much as possible
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... a remark: ATAG doesn't judge (what a flash tool?! shame on you!), it guides the user as much as possible ←
20:39:32 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
20:40:00 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: our role is evangelizing this stuff, as we are part of a big organization, we will make sure that this separate note gets attention
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: the role of the BISG Accessibility Working Group is evangelizing this stuff, as we are part of a big organization, we will make sure that this separate note gets attention ←
20:40:12 <bjdmeest> mgylling: mobile folks didn't chose a separate note?
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Markus Gylling: mobile folks didn't chose a separate note? ←
20:40:38 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: DPUB is a specific industry, whereas mobile is part of the product of every kind of industry
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Unknown dkaplan: DPUB is a specific industry, whereas mobile is part of the product of every kind of industry ←
20:40:44 <bjdmeest> .. they are not the same
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.. they are not the same ←
20:41:08 <bjdmeest> clapierre: we will run into the same issues (ereader on your desktop vs on your tablet, etc)
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Unknown clapierre: we will run into the same issues (ereader on your desktop vs on your tablet, etc) ←
20:41:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/our role/the role of the BISG Accessibility Working Group
20:41:49 <bjdmeest> Jan: they kind of melt together (responsive design), it did make sense to do what they did
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Unknown Jan: they kind of melt together (responsive design), it did make sense to do what they did ←
20:42:12 <bjdmeest> dkaplan; we should be very carefull, if we create our own note
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dkaplan; we should be very carefull, if we create our own note ←
20:42:29 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
20:42:32 <bjdmeest> ... it should use the 'approved' language
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... it should use the 'approved' language ←
20:42:50 <bjdmeest> clapierre: there may be issues that, where a note is not enough
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Unknown clapierre: there may be issues that, where a note is not enough ←
20:43:14 <bjdmeest> ... eg, image of a drop cap must be spoken out by a11y tools correctly
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... eg, image of a drop cap must be spoken out by a11y tools correctly ←
20:43:21 <bjdmeest> ... we might go up to W3C standard
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... we might go up to W3C standard ←
20:43:34 <bjdmeest> Jan: I would love example of DPUB for inclusion into our doc
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Unknown Jan: I would love example of DPUB for inclusion into our doc ←
20:43:51 <bjdmeest> mgylling: the more propagation, the better, the higher we get, the more discoverability
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Markus Gylling: the more propagation, the better, the higher we get, the more discoverability ←
20:44:15 <bjdmeest> ???: what about Oreilly Atlas? a11y platforms?
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Robin Seaman: what about Oreilly Atlas? a11y platforms? ←
20:44:24 <bjdmeest> Jan: that would be part A of our doc
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Unknown Jan: that would be part A of our doc ←
20:44:35 <tzviya> s/???/Robin Seaman
20:44:39 <bjdmeest> ... the biggest barrier is attitude
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... the biggest barrier is attitude ←
20:45:00 <mgylling> ack liam
Markus Gylling: ack liam ←
20:45:00 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to pint out fixed layout might make a useful example of a challenge
Zakim IRC Bot: liam, you wanted to pint out fixed layout might make a useful example of a challenge ←
20:45:04 <bjdmeest> ... positive feedback loop is good
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... positive feedback loop is good ←
20:45:07 <Jutta> virtuous cycle
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Unknown Jutta: virtuous cycle ←
20:45:27 <bjdmeest> liam: about fixed layout: two kinds
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Unknown liam: about fixed layout: two kinds ←
20:45:35 <bjdmeest> 1: ipad: every page is a bmp
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Unknown 1: ipad: every page is a bmp ←
20:46:03 <bjdmeest> ... without judging, fixed layout is a challenge, good example for a11y
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... without judging, fixed layout is a challenge, good example for a11y ←
20:46:32 <bjdmeest> ... drop cap is another (css mech for that now, improves a11y), but tools are lagging
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... drop cap is another (css mech for that now, improves a11y), but tools are lagging ←
20:46:43 <bjdmeest> dhauwe: there are still problems
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Unknown dhauwe: there are still problems ←
20:47:12 <bjdmeest> liam: someone with a11y needs using an authoring tool, vs creating a11y content
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Unknown liam: someone with a11y needs using an authoring tool, vs creating a11y content ←
20:47:28 <bjdmeest> Jan: you can have non-a11y tools that produce a11y content, and vice versa
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Unknown Jan: you can have non-a11y tools that produce a11y content, and vice versa ←
20:47:37 <liam> [2 - svg]
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Unknown liam: [2 - svg] ←
20:47:44 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
20:48:04 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: is there any sort of validator for a11y?
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: is there any sort of validator for a11y? ←
20:48:48 <bjdmeest> Jan: there is a mix: tools that return report using a server, integrated tools (eg Word)
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Unknown Jan: there is a mix: tools that return report using a server, integrated tools (eg Word) ←
20:49:14 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: there is a master EPUB checker, independent of the tools, is there something authorative like that?
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Unknown Bill_Kasdorf: there is a master EPUB checker, independent of the tools, is there something authorative like that? ←
20:49:28 <bjdmeest> Jan: yes, eg EMWeave
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Unknown Jan: yes, eg EMWeave ←
20:49:53 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: that is actually impossible
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Unknown dkaplan: that is actually impossible ←
20:50:01 <bjdmeest> ... epubcheck is something like doing a checksum
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... epubcheck is something like doing a checksum ←
20:50:11 <pkra> it does a bit more these days... suggestions on code quality.
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Unknown pkra: it does a bit more these days... suggestions on code quality. ←
20:50:38 <bjdmeest> Jan: not so different than spelling and grammar, they flag for human judgement
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Unknown Jan: not so different than spelling and grammar, they flag for human judgement ←
20:50:41 <Jutta> checking after authoring is also not as useful as prompting and checking during authoring
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Unknown Jutta: checking after authoring is also not as useful as prompting and checking during authoring ←
20:50:49 <bjdmeest> ... closer to that than validity checking
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... closer to that than validity checking ←
20:50:59 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
20:51:10 <fettes> q+
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Unknown fettes: q+ ←
20:51:52 <bjdmeest> ... everybody needs to know some, there are also some experts out there
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... everybody needs to know some, there are also some experts out there ←
20:52:12 <bjdmeest> Jeanne: there are a11y checkers for HTML, to talk to them for an EPUB a11y checker
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Unknown Jeanne: there are a11y checkers for HTML, to talk to them for an EPUB a11y checker ←
20:52:41 <Jutta> an example of integrated checking in EPub is Open Author
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Unknown Jutta: an example of integrated checking in EPub is Open Author ←
20:52:59 <mgylling> ack fettes
Markus Gylling: ack fettes ←
20:53:04 <bjdmeest> ... somthings can be flagged for humans to check, some things can be automated
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... somthings can be flagged for humans to check, some things can be automated ←
20:53:33 <bjdmeest> fettes: ebpucheck is nice, but if you use a tool that creates epubs, if that is a wrong epub, you have a problem
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Unknown fettes: ebpucheck is nice, but if you use a tool that creates epubs, if that is a wrong epub, you have a problem ←
20:53:43 <dkaplan3> q+
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Unknown dkaplan3: q+ ←
20:53:46 <bjdmeest> ... iBooks uses warnings
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... iBooks uses warnings ←
20:54:08 <bjdmeest> ... checker should be integrated into the tool
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... checker should be integrated into the tool ←
20:54:42 <bjdmeest> mgylling: to take away: the separate note thing
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Markus Gylling: to take away: the separate note thing ←
20:55:04 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: more take away: we should also keep you guys in the loop
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Unknown dkaplan: more take away: we should also keep you guys in the loop ←
20:55:19 <bjdmeest> ... so stuff might be incorporated into the ATAG document
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... so stuff might be incorporated into the ATAG document ←
20:55:50 <bjdmeest> clapierre: we will get going, an hour a week, we will pull you guys in, some point or another
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Unknown clapierre: we will get going, an hour a week, we will pull you guys in, some point or another ←
20:55:55 <bjdmeest> Jan: okay
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Unknown Jan: okay ←
20:55:55 <mgylling> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
20:56:31 <bjdmeest> mgylling: BISG does something about a11y for fixed layout?
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Markus Gylling: BISG does something about a11y for fixed layout? ←
20:56:34 <bjdmeest> mgylling: yes
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Markus Gylling: yes ←
20:56:41 <bjdmeest> ... i wrote that section
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... i wrote that section ←
20:57:14 <bjdmeest> dhauwe: mostly warnings, how users deal with that, is their choice
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Unknown dauwhe: mostly warnings, how users deal with that, is their choice ←
20:57:29 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we should make sure there are no parallel notes out there
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Markus Gylling: we should make sure there are no parallel notes out there ←
20:57:38 <dauwhe> s/dhauwe/dauwhe/
20:57:49 <bjdmeest> Bill_kasdorf: agreed, no duplication (there is already a lot of duplicate stuff)
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Unknown Bill_kasdorf: agreed, no duplication (there is already a lot of duplicate stuff) ←
20:58:03 <bjdmeest> ... we will not add to the problem, we will try to shine a light
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... we will not add to the problem, we will try to shine a light ←
20:58:12 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: could someone of that group join us?
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Unknown dkaplan: could someone of that group join us? ←
20:58:17 <bjdmeest> tzviya: I can
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Unknown tzviya: I can ←
20:58:24 <bjdmeest> Robin: me too
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Unknown Robin: me too ←
20:58:40 <bjdmeest> mgylling: thanks y'all!
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Markus Gylling: thanks y'all! ←
20:58:41 <pkra> clap clap
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Unknown pkra: clap clap ←
20:59:01 <Zakim> -pkra
Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra ←
21:07:37 <Zakim> -Jutta
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -Jutta ←
21:14:18 <ivan> Present+ Xiaoqian_Wu
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(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Unknown ivan: Present+ Xiaoqian_Wu ←
21:14:32 <ivan> Topic: Planning for the future of the IG
21:15:34 <bjdmeest> mgylling: talk about actions items, and logistics
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Markus Gylling: talk about actions items, and logistics ←
21:16:37 <bjdmeest> ... to make sure actions and marching orders are clear
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... to make sure actions and marching orders are clear ←
21:17:09 <bjdmeest> karen: i want to mention: converations with other global regions (ie, indian publishing community)
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Unknown karen: i want to mention: converations with other global regions (ie, indian publishing community) ←
21:17:17 <bjdmeest> ... could be short agenda item
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... could be short agenda item ←
21:17:37 <bjdmeest> topic: pagination
21:18:00 <bjdmeest> tzviya: adding section about spread behaviour at latin req
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Unknown tzviya: adding section about spread behaviour at latin req ←
21:18:26 <bjdmeest> ... marcus and liam will have a fun time creating the page layout req
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... marcus and liam will have a fun time creating the page layout req ←
21:18:37 <bjdmeest> ... I will give pdf examples of paginated content
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... I will give pdf examples of paginated content ←
21:19:07 <bjdmeest> dauwhe: I can triage them, we may need to decide how to communicate the insights they will provide
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Unknown dauwhe: I can triage them, we may need to decide how to communicate the insights they will provide ←
21:19:17 <bjdmeest> ivan: we can put the big ones on the W3C site
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Unknown ivan: we can put the big ones on the W3C site ←
21:19:28 <bjdmeest> dauwhe: or in scope for latin req
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Unknown dauwhe: or in scope for latin req ←
21:19:41 <bjdmeest> ... could be small snippets
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... could be small snippets ←
21:19:55 <bjdmeest> tzviya: I will do small snippets (1-2 pages)
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Unknown tzviya: I will do small snippets (1-2 pages) ←
21:20:02 <bjdmeest> liam: is this in scope for paged layout?
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Unknown liam: is this in scope for paged layout? ←
21:20:14 <liam> http://kesselstreet.tripod.com/notmine/absolute_learning.gif
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Unknown liam: http://kesselstreet.tripod.com/notmine/absolute_learning.gif ←
21:20:59 <bjdmeest> tzviya: bus/business use case is for Karen
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Unknown tzviya: bus/business use case is for Karen ←
21:21:08 <bjdmeest> ivan: Karen will collect, everyone should help
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Unknown ivan: Karen will collect, everyone should help ←
21:21:33 <bjdmeest> tzviya: perhaps Paul?
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Unknown tzviya: perhaps Paul? ←
21:22:15 <bjdmeest> mgylling: what about time commitments? now, everything has one week due, seems not possible
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Markus Gylling: what about time commitments? now, everything has one week due, seems not possible ←
21:22:26 <bjdmeest> tzviya: I can give examples withing 2 weeks
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Unknown tzviya: I can give examples withing 2 weeks ←
21:22:48 <bjdmeest> ... volunteerism is a general problem
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... volunteerism is a general problem ←
21:23:02 <bjdmeest> ivan: very specific jobs might be easier to find volunteers
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Unknown ivan: very specific jobs might be easier to find volunteers ←
21:23:25 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we need timelines, we cannot fix volunteers atm
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Markus Gylling: we need timelines, we cannot fix volunteers atm ←
21:25:07 <bjdmeest> dauwhe: I will add to the latin req by thanksgiving (27/11)
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Unknown dauwhe: I will add to the latin req by thanksgiving (27/11) ←
21:25:41 <bjdmeest> [updates are being done in www.w3.org/dpub/ig/track/actions/open ]
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[updates are being done in www.w3.org/dpub/ig/track/actions/open ] ←
21:27:23 <bjdmeest> [updates are further being done in the actions page, deadlines are being set]
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[updates are further being done in the actions page, deadlines are being set] ←
21:29:34 <bjdmeest> ivan: [about bus case] when do we have a list of names we can act upon?
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Unknown ivan: [about bus case] when do we have a list of names we can act upon? ←
21:29:55 <bjdmeest> ... we really concentrate on the current resources (only books, might change in the future)
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... we really concentrate on the current resources (only books, might change in the future) ←
21:30:14 <bjdmeest> mgylling: was this a good idea?
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Markus Gylling: was this a good idea? ←
21:30:19 <bjdmeest> karen: it would be useful
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Unknown karen: it would be useful ←
21:30:39 <bjdmeest> ivan: we will have on this and on EPUBWEB discussions with the browser vendors
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Unknown ivan: we will have on this and on EPUBWEB discussions with the browser vendors ←
21:30:50 <bjdmeest> ... I think as well this doc will be very useful
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... I think as well this doc will be very useful ←
21:31:08 <bjdmeest> tzviya: so this bizz case doc by the end of november?
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Unknown tzviya: so this bizz case doc by the end of november? ←
21:31:10 <bjdmeest> karen: yes
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Unknown karen: yes ←
21:31:30 <bjdmeest> topic: role-stuff
21:31:59 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we are good to go, we are creating a TF under PF that will take a subset of EPUB structural semantics, do stuff (OWLifying)
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Markus Gylling: we are good to go, we are creating a TF under PF that will take a subset of EPUB structural semantics, do stuff (OWLifying) ←
21:32:16 <bjdmeest> ... headed by tzviya and me, with contributions of mark ???
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... headed by tzviya and me, with contributions of mark ??? ←
21:32:32 <bjdmeest> ... charles and deborah as well
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... charles and deborah as well ←
21:32:46 <bjdmeest> mgylling: the action is to review and narrow the list
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Markus Gylling: the action is to review and narrow the list ←
21:32:52 <bjdmeest> ... by mid december?
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... by mid december? ←
21:33:03 <bjdmeest> tzviyah: yes, and we will talk to Paul?
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Unknown tzviyah: yes, and we will talk to Paul? ←
21:33:12 <bjdmeest> mgylling: I'll do that
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Markus Gylling: I'll do that ←
21:33:45 <bjdmeest> ivan: I will try to understand the OWL thing, what they do
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Unknown ivan: I will try to understand the OWL thing, what they do ←
21:34:08 <bjdmeest> ... remove this separate action, and add me to the previous one
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... remove this separate action, and add me to the previous one ←
21:34:31 <bjdmeest> topic: stem-meeting actions
21:34:49 <bjdmeest> tzviyah: survey send out early november, results by end november
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Unknown tzviyah: survey send out early november, results by end november ←
21:35:03 <bjdmeest> ... by Peter
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... by Peter ←
21:35:11 <bjdmeest> ... in time by force11
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... in time by force11 ←
21:35:18 <bjdmeest> ivan: force11 is in January
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Unknown ivan: force11 is in January ←
21:35:58 <bjdmeest> topic: metadata actions
21:36:16 <bjdmeest> Bill_kasdorf: actions are depending on volunteers (I already got some)
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Unknown Bill_kasdorf: actions are depending on volunteers (I already got some) ←
21:36:31 <bjdmeest> ... by myself, I could commit to one in november, but there are volunteers
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... by myself, I could commit to one in november, but there are volunteers ←
21:37:02 <bjdmeest> ivan: I think both actions are comparable in size
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Unknown ivan: I think both actions are comparable in size ←
21:37:13 <bjdmeest> Bill_kasdorf: I am busy till mid november
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Unknown Bill_kasdorf: I am busy till mid november ←
21:37:22 <bjdmeest> ivan: so commit to both by mid december?
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Unknown ivan: so commit to both by mid december? ←
21:37:28 <bjdmeest> bill_kasdorf: yeah
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Unknown bill_kasdorf: yeah ←
21:37:44 <bjdmeest> ivan: so current document should be closed down.
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Unknown ivan: so current document should be closed down. ←
21:38:19 <bjdmeest> mgylling: also for rob, to finalize annotation
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Markus Gylling: also for rob, to finalize annotation ←
21:38:55 <bjdmeest> ... use cases
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... use cases ←
21:41:28 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: i will send out an email: we will do a11y reset, and ask to join again
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Unknown dkaplan: i will send out an email: we will do a11y reset, and ask to join again ←
21:41:50 <bjdmeest> ... so people with not that many actions: we are superfun to work with! We have candy!
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... so people with not that many actions: we are superfun to work with! We have candy! ←
21:42:21 <clapierre1> http://diagramcenter.org/54-9-tips-for-creating-accessible-epub-3-files.html
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Unknown clapierre1: http://diagramcenter.org/54-9-tips-for-creating-accessible-epub-3-files.html ←
21:42:41 <bjdmeest> clapierre: I added a benetech file with tips for a11y for EPUB
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Unknown clapierre: I added a benetech file with tips for a11y for EPUB ←
21:42:57 <bjdmeest> ... we think that that list of tips will be linked back to the a11y note, that will link to WCAG etc
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... we think that that list of tips will be linked back to the a11y note, that will link to WCAG etc ←
21:43:44 <bjdmeest> tzviya: maybe an extra F2F, during a conference maybe? (BEA, that is together with IDPF)
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Unknown tzviya: maybe an extra F2F, during a conference maybe? (BEA, that is together with IDPF) ←
21:43:47 <bjdmeest> ... is that valuable?
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... is that valuable? ←
21:43:50 <bjdmeest> ivan: yes
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Unknown ivan: yes ←
21:44:02 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: could be throw together a conference wiki page?
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Unknown dkaplan: could be throw together a conference wiki page? ←
21:44:23 <bjdmeest> bill_kasdorf: I have ssp and IDPF, so if this could be at the frontend of IDPF, that would be great
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Unknown bill_kasdorf: I have ssp and IDPF, so if this could be at the frontend of IDPF, that would be great ←
21:44:56 <bjdmeest> tzviya: the conference wiki is a good idea (also C-SAN
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Unknown tzviya: the conference wiki is a good idea (also CSUN ←
21:45:09 <bjdmeest> ivan: we need it to be before summer
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Unknown ivan: we need it to be before summer ←
21:45:11 <dkaplan3> s/C-SAN/CSUN
21:45:29 <bjdmeest> karen: also other parts of the world (eg EDUPUB)
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Unknown karen: also other parts of the world (eg EDUPUB) ←
21:45:34 <bjdmeest> mgylling: may sounds better
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Markus Gylling: may sounds better ←
21:45:49 <bjdmeest> ... next TPAC is in Saporro, so that is not an easy location
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... next TPAC is in Saporro, so that is not an easy location ←
21:46:03 <bjdmeest> ... that is an argument to get another meeting
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... that is an argument to get another meeting ←
21:46:56 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we are getting a lot of complains that the current time for telcon is not great
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Markus Gylling: we are getting a lot of complains that the current time for telcon is not great ←
21:47:15 <bjdmeest> tzviya: certainly for Asia
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Unknown tzviya: certainly for Asia ←
21:47:38 <bjdmeest> karen: India has a lot of interest in DPUB
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Unknown karen: India has a lot of interest in DPUB ←
21:47:57 <bjdmeest> ... the time is prohibitive to participate
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... the time is prohibitive to participate ←
21:48:05 <bjdmeest> ... they want to make sure there use cases get attention
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... they want to make sure there use cases get attention ←
21:48:36 <bjdmeest> ... maybe they have their own task force? own community group? representative for our telcons?
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... maybe they have their own task force? own community group? representative for our telcons? ←
21:48:55 <bjdmeest> ... ideally, we should have one time that fits for all
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... ideally, we should have one time that fits for all ←
21:49:06 <bjdmeest> bill_kasdorf: publishers or suppliers?
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Unknown bill_kasdorf: publishers or suppliers? ←
21:49:08 <bjdmeest> karen: both
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Unknown karen: both ←
21:49:23 <bjdmeest> ... 10-12 people, so not insignificant
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... 10-12 people, so not insignificant ←
21:49:23 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
21:49:29 <bjdmeest> mgylling: what to do?
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Markus Gylling: what to do? ←
21:49:36 <bjdmeest> liam: we could move India
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Unknown liam: we could move India ←
21:50:11 <bjdmeest> ivan: having yet another task force, means extra load to tzviya and marcus, I am reluctant to go that way
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Unknown ivan: having yet another task force, means extra load to tzviya and marcus, I am reluctant to go that way ←
21:50:26 <bjdmeest> ... we have a situation where latinreq is done here
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... we have a situation where latinreq is done here ←
21:50:58 <bjdmeest> ... at some point, japan, chinese and korean is going on, which span on i18n activities
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... at some point, japan, chinese and korean is going on, which span on i18n activities ←
21:51:25 <bjdmeest> ... the indian group could be a separate interest group, // to china
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... the indian group could be a separate interest group, // to china ←
21:51:25 <liam> [note, jlreq was a joint task force with XSL-FO, CSS and I18N ]
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Unknown liam: [note, jlreq was a joint task force with XSL-FO, CSS and I18N ] ←
21:52:06 <bjdmeest> ... with the additional feature that they have a representative for our call, or we sporadically organize calls with more convenient times for them
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... with the additional feature that they have a representative for our call, or we sporadically organize calls with more convenient times for them ←
21:52:30 <xiaoqian> q+
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Unknown xiaoqian: q+ ←
21:52:43 <bjdmeest> ... if we move the call, we have to move the call 1-2 hours forward, which is not practical for the west coast
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... if we move the call, we have to move the call 1-2 hours forward, which is not practical for the west coast ←
21:53:05 <bjdmeest> karen: they could maybe join other task forces?
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Unknown karen: they could maybe join other task forces? ←
21:53:27 <bjdmeest> robin: we met the former head of Elsevier, it could be that there is an intersection there
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Unknown robin: we met the former head of Elsevier, it could be that there is an intersection there ←
21:53:31 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
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Unknown tzviya: ack dkaplan ←
21:53:50 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: extra help to the a11y group would be very much appreciated
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Unknown dkaplan: extra help to the a11y group would be very much appreciated ←
21:54:20 <bjdmeest> ivan: apart from some sparks, we did not really make use of e-mail discussions, sometimes there are long discussions on the monday calls
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Unknown ivan: apart from some sparks, we did not really make use of e-mail discussions, sometimes there are long discussions on the monday calls ←
21:54:32 <tzviya> ack xiaoqian
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Unknown tzviya: ack xiaoqian ←
21:54:37 <bjdmeest> ... we could make more use of the email discussions, and then the timezone is no longer a problem
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... we could make more use of the email discussions, and then the timezone is no longer a problem ←
21:55:06 <bjdmeest> xiaoqian: we have community group, where DPUB discussions should happen
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Unknown xiaoqian: we have community group, where DPUB discussions should happen ←
21:55:29 <bjdmeest> karen: for India, a separate interest group does not make sense, whilst they want to be bonafide members
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Unknown karen: for India, a separate interest group does not make sense, whilst they want to be bonafide members ←
21:55:55 <bjdmeest> ivan: chartering an extra interest group is not a problem, as it are india specific issues
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Unknown ivan: chartering an extra interest group is not a problem, as it are india specific issues ←
21:56:13 <bjdmeest> karen: it is not only India related, they also want to contribute to the main core
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Unknown karen: it is not only India related, they also want to contribute to the main core ←
21:56:29 <bjdmeest> tzviya: extra help is always appreciated
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Unknown tzviya: extra help is always appreciated ←
21:56:53 <bjdmeest> ivan: task forces have very ad hoc goals, there are no regular timings, more emails
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Unknown ivan: task forces have very ad hoc goals, there are no regular timings, more emails ←
21:56:59 <bjdmeest> ... there, there is no problem
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... there, there is no problem ←
21:57:02 <dkaplan3> q+
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Unknown dkaplan3: q+ ←
21:57:19 <clapierre1> rrsagent, draft minutes
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Unknown clapierre1: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
21:57:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html clapierre1
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html clapierre1 ←
21:57:27 <bjdmeest> karen: maybe we can organize a call with the Indian office, on a convenient time, to check the matches and the task forces with them
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Unknown karen: maybe we can organize a call with the Indian office, on a convenient time, to check the matches and the task forces with them ←
21:57:31 <bjdmeest> tzviya: ok
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Unknown tzviya: ok ←
21:57:41 <bjdmeest> karen: I will organize that
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Unknown karen: I will organize that ←
21:57:52 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
21:58:02 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: anybody who knows anyone who cares about a11y, put them in touch with us
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Unknown dkaplan: anybody who knows anyone who cares about a11y, put them in touch with us ←
21:58:03 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
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Unknown tzviya: ack dkaplan ←
21:58:24 <tzviya> thank you
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Unknown tzviya: thank you ←
22:02:18 <ivan> Present+ Richard_Ishida
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Richard_Ishida ←
22:03:39 <ivan> Present+ Addison
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Addison ←
22:03:56 <ivan> Present+ Felix_Sasaki
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Felix_Sasaki ←
22:05:53 <ivan> scribenick: brady_duga
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(Scribe set to Unknown brady_duga)
22:06:29 <ivan> Present+ fantasai
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Unknown ivan: Present+ fantasai ←
22:06:41 <dauwhe> me s/an editor/THE editor/
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Unknown dauwhe: me s/an editor/THE editor/ ←
22:08:31 <brady_duga> richard: Need intro? Yes
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Unknown richard: Need intro? Yes ←
22:09:13 <brady_duga> … brief overview of I18n WG
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… brief overview of I18n WG ←
22:09:54 <brady_duga> … seek out features, provide advice to WGs, review specs, liase with other orgs, create tests, etc
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… seek out features, provide advice to WGs, review specs, liase with other orgs, create tests, etc ←
22:10:06 <ivan> Present+ Bert_Bos
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Unknown ivan: Present+ Bert_Bos ←
22:11:00 <brady_duga> … home page has a bunch drill down topic based tasks, plus dos and don’ts
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… home page has a bunch drill down topic based tasks, plus dos and don’ts ←
22:11:20 <brady_duga> … have a checker/validator
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… have a checker/validator ←
22:11:44 <brady_duga> … run workshops from various disciplines. Lock them in a room until they are smiling and happy
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… run workshops from various disciplines. Lock them in a room until they are smiling and happy ←
22:12:14 <brady_duga> … slides are available online
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… slides are available online ←
22:12:49 <brady_duga> … empower local communities to participate
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… empower local communities to participate ←
22:13:40 <brady_duga> … work they have done: predefined counters for various scripts. The document has the CSS you need, and it will create correct script-based styling
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… work they have done: predefined counters for various scripts. The document has the CSS you need, and it will create correct script-based styling ←
22:14:00 <brady_duga> … Arabic math done in mathml WG.
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… Arabic math done in mathml WG. ←
22:14:38 <brady_duga> … have worked a lot on ruby, working on a new model for html 5 and working with CSS to enable fine adjustments of these annotations
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… have worked a lot on ruby, working on a new model for html 5 and working with CSS to enable fine adjustments of these annotations ←
22:15:43 <brady_duga> … show of hands of people who are familiar with various interesting scripts
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… show of hands of people who are familiar with various interesting scripts ←
22:16:26 <brady_duga> … one problem with BIDI was use of unicode BIDI algorithm. Usually works, but not always
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… one problem with BIDI was use of unicode BIDI algorithm. Usually works, but not always ←
22:16:53 <brady_duga> … [showing example of restaurant review putting restaurant names in the wrong place]
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… [showing example of restaurant review putting restaurant names in the wrong place] ←
22:17:19 <brady_duga> … they worked on solving this
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… they worked on solving this ←
22:18:04 <brady_duga> … that’s the general stuff they work on
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… that’s the general stuff they work on ←
22:18:14 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
22:18:17 <brady_duga> … they started to look at Japanese content specifically
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… they started to look at Japanese content specifically ←
22:18:57 <brady_duga> … TF met over 2 years, created a huge document “Requirements for Japanese Text Layout”
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… TF met over 2 years, created a huge document “Requirements for Japanese Text Layout” ←
22:19:22 <brady_duga> … Document is in both Japanese and English
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… Document is in both Japanese and English ←
22:19:22 <dauwhe> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/
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Unknown dauwhe: http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ ←
22:19:51 <brady_duga> … Did not address problems in CSS, just described text layout for Japanese, to make it perrenial
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… Did not address problems in CSS, just described text layout for Japanese, to make it perrenial ←
22:20:31 <brady_duga> … TF worked in their own language, comms in own lang
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… TF worked in their own language, comms in own lang ←
22:20:41 <brady_duga> … then provided English language version
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… then provided English language version ←
22:20:53 <brady_duga> … So succesful, moved on to Korean
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… So succesful, moved on to Korean ←
22:21:15 <dauwhe> http://www.w3.org/TR/klreq/
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Unknown dauwhe: http://www.w3.org/TR/klreq/ ←
22:21:17 <brady_duga> … Things not going too fast, but they have some work out
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… Things not going too fast, but they have some work out ←
22:21:28 <brady_duga> … have an indic TF as well, still early days
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… have an indic TF as well, still early days ←
22:21:58 <brady_duga> … now working on Chinese
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… now working on Chinese ←
22:22:10 <brady_duga> … simplified and traditional
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… simplified and traditional ←
22:24:28 <brady_duga> … also looking at minority scripts (Mongolian, Tibetan & Uyghur)
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… also looking at minority scripts (Mongolian, Tibetan & Uyghur) ←
22:25:50 <brady_duga> … lots of interesting problems, nto just styling (for instance, fonts)
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… lots of interesting problems, nto just styling (for instance, fonts) ←
22:26:21 <brady_duga> … Looking at Thai - for instance letter spacing
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… Looking at Thai - for instance letter spacing ←
22:26:33 <brady_duga> … have to decompose and then apply spacing in some cases
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… have to decompose and then apply spacing in some cases ←
22:28:00 <brady_duga> … letter spacing in Hindi may need to keep two grapheme clusters together, so letter spacing is a problem
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… letter spacing in Hindi may need to keep two grapheme clusters together, so letter spacing is a problem ←
22:28:37 <brady_duga> … white space processing - may need to drop inserted spaces (say, after pretty printing content)
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… white space processing - may need to drop inserted spaces (say, after pretty printing content) ←
22:29:08 <brady_duga> … underlines are tricky - in some scripts if the line crosses certain glyphs it changes their meaning
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… underlines are tricky - in some scripts if the line crosses certain glyphs it changes their meaning ←
22:29:49 <brady_duga> … emphasis issues - for instance, in Tibetan need to position on syllables
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… emphasis issues - for instance, in Tibetan need to position on syllables ←
22:30:31 <brady_duga> … ruby differences (eg bopomofo in Taiwan)
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… ruby differences (eg bopomofo in Taiwan) ←
22:30:51 <brady_duga> … how do Korean line breaking rules work?
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… how do Korean line breaking rules work? ←
22:31:10 <brady_duga> … Arabic justification - rules vary based on font, even if the text is identical
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… Arabic justification - rules vary based on font, even if the text is identical ←
22:31:55 <brady_duga> … Tibetan justification - still researching the best way to do it in modern typography
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… Tibetan justification - still researching the best way to do it in modern typography ←
22:32:11 <brady_duga> … working to get more layout requirements
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… working to get more layout requirements ←
22:32:27 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
22:32:47 <brady_duga> … they are trying to get the international community more involved.
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… they are trying to get the international community more involved. ←
22:32:55 <xiaoqian> q+
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Unknown xiaoqian: q+ ←
22:33:03 <brady_duga> … instead of a bunch of geeks in a room figuring it out
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… instead of a bunch of geeks in a room figuring it out ←
22:33:21 <tzviya> ack xiaoqian
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Unknown tzviya: ack xiaoqian ←
22:33:32 <astearns> q+
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Unknown astearns: q+ ←
22:34:19 <tzviya> q astearns
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Unknown tzviya: q astearns ←
22:34:26 <brady_duga> xiaoqian: had a Chinese layout workshop earlier - Mongolian professor said they are trying to help others understand their problems with an online magazine
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Unknown xiaoqian: had a Chinese layout workshop earlier - Mongolian professor said they are trying to help others understand their problems with an online magazine ←
22:34:38 <clapierre1> q+
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Unknown clapierre1: q+ ←
22:34:39 <brady_duga> … need to get more data from local experts
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… need to get more data from local experts ←
22:34:48 <brady_duga> alan: what is up with Korean WG?
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Unknown alan: what is up with Korean WG? ←
22:35:00 <brady_duga> richard: not hearing much from them
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Unknown richard: not hearing much from them ←
22:35:04 <tzviya> ack clapierre
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Unknown tzviya: ack clapierre ←
22:35:07 <brady_duga> alan: LG may be joining
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Unknown alan: LG may be joining ←
22:35:10 <astearns> ack me
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Unknown astearns: ack me ←
22:35:26 <brady_duga> charles: looking at the list of languages: what about Burmese?
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Unknown charles: looking at the list of languages: what about Burmese? ←
22:35:31 <ivan> q+
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Unknown ivan: q+ ←
22:35:42 <brady_duga> richard: looking at it, based on indic languages
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Unknown richard: looking at it, based on indic languages ←
22:35:54 <brady_duga> … may be other issues (eg no spaces between words)
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… may be other issues (eg no spaces between words) ←
22:36:26 <tzviya> ack ivan
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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan ←
22:37:17 <brady_duga> ivan: based on a presentation a few years ago, this IG will be limited to Latin
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Unknown ivan: based on a presentation a few years ago, this IG will be limited to Latin ←
22:37:20 <addison> q+
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Unknown addison: q+ ←
22:37:53 <dauwhe> q+
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Unknown dauwhe: q+ ←
22:38:43 <brady_duga> … Is there a need to synchronize on the type of problems and concerns across languages? So documents produced for other languages are as relevant to digipub as latin rec
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… Is there a need to synchronize on the type of problems and concerns across languages? So documents produced for other languages are as relevant to digipub as latin rec ←
22:39:34 <brady_duga> … Also, yesterday we talked about pagination. We will initiate some work on it. Need to coordinate.
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… Also, yesterday we talked about pagination. We will initiate some work on it. Need to coordinate. ←
22:39:50 <dauwhe> q-
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Unknown dauwhe: q- ←
22:40:16 <brady_duga> … Also, have Indian group joining us. Some of their issues will be language specific. How to handle overlap with this group?
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… Also, have Indian group joining us. Some of their issues will be language specific. How to handle overlap with this group? ←
22:41:22 <brady_duga> richard: back to Burmese sample: problems with mobile vs desktop
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Unknown richard: back to Burmese sample: problems with mobile vs desktop ←
22:41:40 <brady_duga> … need to conform to proper unicode is really only solution
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… need to conform to proper unicode is really only solution ←
22:42:24 <dauwhe> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks
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Unknown dauwhe: https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks ←
22:42:28 <brady_duga> … improving typography on the web. Fantasai has said, layout isn’t just language based (for instance, specific scripts change things)
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… improving typography on the web. Fantasai has said, layout isn’t just language based (for instance, specific scripts change things) ←
22:42:57 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/
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Unknown tzviya: http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/ ←
22:43:17 <tzviya> ack addison
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Unknown tzviya: ack addison ←
22:43:20 <Karen_> [Richard shows wiki page on Improving text layout and typography on the Web in ebooks]
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Unknown Karen_: [Richard shows wiki page on Improving text layout and typography on the Web in ebooks] ←
22:43:50 <ivan> q+
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Unknown ivan: q+ ←
22:44:14 <brady_duga> addison(???): digital pubs need to discover all these things.
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Unknown addison: digital pubs need to discover all these things. ←
22:44:55 <brady_duga> addison: want to make sure international standards are done at w3c and move into epub
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Unknown addison: want to make sure international standards are done at w3c and move into epub ←
22:45:12 <dauwhe> s/(???)//
22:45:13 <brady_duga> tzviya: worried we are overlapping - how to we work together
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Unknown tzviya: worried we are overlapping - how to we work together ←
22:45:39 <brady_duga> richard: wants us to look at what they are doing, see if it will help us or if we can work on it with them
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Unknown richard: wants us to look at what they are doing, see if it will help us or if we can work on it with them ←
22:46:13 <tzviya> ?
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Unknown tzviya: ? ←
22:46:16 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
22:46:20 <tzviya> ack ivan
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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan ←
22:46:28 <brady_duga> … Indic group wanted to document stuff for us, richard pushed them to get it in a single place (i18n WG)
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… Indic group wanted to document stuff for us, richard pushed them to get it in a single place (i18n WG) ←
22:47:15 <brady_duga> ivan: all the documents i18n wg have produced would be extremely useful for epub publishers
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Unknown ivan: all the documents i18n wg have produced would be extremely useful for epub publishers ←
22:47:47 <brady_duga> ivan: worried that most publishers don’t know these documents and tools exist
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Unknown ivan: worried that most publishers don’t know these documents and tools exist ←
22:48:10 <brady_duga> ivan: last thing - do we have time for Chinese CG?
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Unknown ivan: last thing - do we have time for Chinese CG? ←
22:48:44 <brady_duga> xiaoqian: chinese wg is same as Chinese requirement TF
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Unknown xiaoqian: chinese wg is same as Chinese requirement TF ←
22:48:59 <brady_duga> ivan: but whatever comes out of the CG - we would like to hear about it
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Unknown ivan: but whatever comes out of the CG - we would like to hear about it ←
22:50:00 <brady_duga> xiaoqian: there are still gaps between dpub wg and Chinese TF. They need to fill the gaps.
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Unknown xiaoqian: there are still gaps between dpub wg and Chinese TF. They need to fill the gaps. ←
22:50:37 <murakami> q+
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Unknown murakami: q+ ←
22:50:38 <brady_duga> richard: i18n WG working on getting complex communication issues resolved
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Unknown richard: i18n WG working on getting complex communication issues resolved ←
22:50:48 <brady_duga> … want to work with dpub on that
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… want to work with dpub on that ←
22:50:53 <tzviya> ack murakami
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Unknown tzviya: ack murakami ←
22:51:20 <brady_duga> murakami: in Japan one study group working on next gen layout for browsers
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Unknown murakami: in Japan one study group working on next gen layout for browsers ←
22:51:30 <brady_duga> … supported by Japanese government
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… supported by Japanese government ←
22:51:57 <brady_duga> … the chair of that group is Koji Ishii
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… the chair of that group is Koji Ishii ←
22:52:28 <ivan> q?
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Unknown ivan: q? ←
22:52:32 <ivan> q+
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Unknown ivan: q+ ←
22:52:44 <brady_duga> … next year TPAC will be in Sapporo
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… next year TPAC will be in Sapporo ←
22:53:12 <brady_duga> … wants us to work in conjunction with that group
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… wants us to work in conjunction with that group ←
22:53:33 <chunming> q?
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Unknown chunming: q? ←
22:53:43 <takeshi> q+
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Unknown takeshi: q+ ←
22:53:53 <tzviya> ack ivan
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Unknown tzviya: ack ivan ←
22:53:53 <brady_duga> richard: Lets look at ways we can tie together all the appropriate groups
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Unknown richard: Lets look at ways we can tie together all the appropriate groups ←
22:54:03 <brady_duga> ivan: Looking for actions
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Unknown ivan: Looking for actions ←
22:54:46 <brady_duga> action ivan to find someone to review i18n web page
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action ivan to find someone to review i18n web page ←
22:54:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Find someone to review i18n web page [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-11-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-42 - Find someone to review i18n web page [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-11-07]. ←
22:55:12 <brady_duga> ivan: we should report back to i18n wg
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Unknown ivan: we should report back to i18n wg ←
22:55:15 <tzviya> ACTION Tzviya DPUB to read i18n documentation from EPUB perspective for gap analysis
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Unknown tzviya: ACTION Tzviya DPUB to read i18n documentation from EPUB perspective for gap analysis ←
22:55:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Dpub to read i18n documentation from epub perspective for gap analysis [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-43 - Dpub to read i18n documentation from epub perspective for gap analysis [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07]. ←
22:55:57 <brady_duga> … especially pagination recs need to coordinate
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… especially pagination recs need to coordinate ←
22:55:58 <chunming> You may refer to the report of Chinese Layout Req Workshop this september: http://www.chinaw3c.org/layout-workshop-report.html#conclusion
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Unknown chunming: You may refer to the report of Chinese Layout Req Workshop this september: http://www.chinaw3c.org/layout-workshop-report.html#conclusion ←
22:56:09 <tzviya> ack takeshi
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Unknown tzviya: ack takeshi ←
22:56:09 <brady_duga> … once a year at TPAC may not be enough
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… once a year at TPAC may not be enough ←
22:58:14 <brady_duga> takeshi: gathering info from many communities is very important, but need to be careful - in some cases need to understand how it interacts with Latin languages
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Unknown takeshi: gathering info from many communities is very important, but need to be careful - in some cases need to understand how it interacts with Latin languages ←
22:58:39 <brady_duga> … for instance, emphasis in Japanese with Latin glyphs
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… for instance, emphasis in Japanese with Latin glyphs ←
22:59:04 <brady_duga> richard: if we make all these requirements without tieing to technologies that’s fine
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Unknown richard: if we make all these requirements without tieing to technologies that’s fine ←
22:59:05 <tzviya> q?
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Unknown tzviya: q? ←
22:59:36 <brady_duga> … but we need to tie this back to the technologies, and need to coordinate with similar language groups (for instance Chinese and Japanese)
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… but we need to tie this back to the technologies, and need to coordinate with similar language groups (for instance Chinese and Japanese) ←
23:00:03 <brady_duga> … need to figure out what is the web of comms channels to make this work
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… need to figure out what is the web of comms channels to make this work ←
23:00:04 <Karen_> q+
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Unknown Karen_: q+ ←
23:00:34 <brady_duga> tzviya: we will review their docs, and work with ivan on coordinating comms with i18n wg
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Unknown tzviya: we will review their docs, and work with ivan on coordinating comms with i18n wg ←
23:00:51 <brady_duga> addison: is this a good time to start reviewing our work?
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Unknown addison: is this a good time to start reviewing our work? ←
23:01:04 <brady_duga> … this is a weird case, since we are working on similar things
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… this is a weird case, since we are working on similar things ←
23:01:15 <tzviya> ack karen
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Unknown tzviya: ack karen ←
23:01:36 <brady_duga> karen: Communications - is that intra-w3c? Or do you mean external comms?
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Unknown karen: Communications - is that intra-w3c? Or do you mean external comms? ←
23:01:49 <brady_duga> tzviya: Intention was intra-w3c
Scribe problem: the name 'brady_duga' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'tzviya' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown tzviya: Intention was intra-w3c ←
23:02:07 <brady_duga> karen: is there an opportunity to do more educational outreach?
Scribe problem: the name 'brady_duga' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'karen' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown karen: is there an opportunity to do more educational outreach? ←
23:02:13 <brady_duga> tzviya: yes, eventually
Scribe problem: the name 'brady_duga' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'tzviya' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown tzviya: yes, eventually ←
23:02:15 <tzviya> thank you
Scribe problem: the name 'tzviya' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'tzviya' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown tzviya: thank you ←
23:02:59 <ivan> Meeting adjurned
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ivan: Meeting adjurned ←
23:03:06 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ivan: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
23:03:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan ←
23:03:27 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ivan: zakim, who is here? ←
23:03:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see Seattle
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Seattle ←
23:03:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see bobtung, chunming, Reinaldo_, hiroto, Bert, takeshi, addison, bjdmeest, Karen_, jeanne, dauwhe, murakami, xiaoqian, ShaneM, liam, Jutta, tzviya, ivan, iank_, RRSAgent,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bobtung, chunming, Reinaldo_, hiroto, Bert, takeshi, addison, bjdmeest, Karen_, jeanne, dauwhe, murakami, xiaoqian, ShaneM, liam, Jutta, tzviya, ivan, iank_, RRSAgent, ←
23:03:28 <Zakim> ... Zakim, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Zakim, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot ←
23:03:33 <ivan> zakim, drop seattle
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ivan: zakim, drop seattle ←
23:03:33 <Zakim> Seattle is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: Seattle is being disconnected ←
23:03:35 <Zakim> DPUB_IG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_IG()11:00AM has ended ←
23:03:35 <Zakim> Attendees were Seattle, pkra, madi, +44.788.775.aaaa, astein, +1.217.721.aabb, Jutta, Tim_Boland
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Seattle, pkra, madi, +44.788.775.aaaa, astein, +1.217.721.aabb, Jutta, Tim_Boland ←
23:04:04 <ivan> zakim, bye
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ivan: zakim, bye ←
23:04:12 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ivan' does not match any of the 4 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Markus Gylling Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ivan: rrsagent, bye ←
23:04:12 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-actions.rdf : ←
23:04:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for RDFa [1]
ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for RDFa [1] ←
23:04:12 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc#T17-41-07
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc#T17-41-07 ←
23:04:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as URIs and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [2]
ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as URIs and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [2] ←
23:04:12 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc#T17-48-52
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc#T17-48-52 ←
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