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Chatlog 2012-08-08
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14:55:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 14:55:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/08-rdf-wg-irc 14:55:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:55:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 14:55:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394 14:55:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 14:55:44 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference 14:55:44 <trackbot> Date: 08 August 2012 14:56:33 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg 14:57:02 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg 14:57:44 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started 14:57:50 <Zakim> +??P8 14:57:55 <AndyS> zakim, ??P8 is me 14:57:55 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 14:58:08 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg 14:58:22 <Zakim> +??P9 14:58:27 <SteveH__> Zakim, ??P9 is me 14:58:27 <Zakim> +SteveH__; got it 14:58:59 <SteveH> Zakim, SteveH__ is me 14:58:59 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it 14:59:17 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aaaa 14:59:24 <gavinc> Zakim, aaaa is me 14:59:24 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it 14:59:50 <Zakim> +David 14:59:53 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:59:53 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:59:55 <Zakim> +Ivan 15:00:06 <ivan> zakim, mute me 15:00:06 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted 15:00:07 <Zakim> +sandro 15:00:17 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg 15:00:24 <cgreer> cgreer has joined #rdf-wg 15:00:24 <Zakim> +[IBM] 15:00:25 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone? 15:00:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, SteveH, gavinc, David, Ivan (muted), sandro, [IBM] 15:00:32 <Zakim> +mhausenblas 15:00:38 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me 15:00:38 <Zakim> +cygri; got it 15:00:48 <Zakim> +Arnaud 15:00:49 <Zakim> +??P17 15:01:00 <pfps> I can scribe. 15:01:13 <AZ> Zakim, ??P17 is me 15:01:13 <Zakim> +AZ; got it 15:01:45 <davidwood> scribenick: pfps 15:02:24 <pfps> Topic: Administration 15:02:50 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg 15:02:56 <pfps> david: last two minutes are not ready 15:02:01 <gavinc> Not so much, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25 404 :( 15:02:17 <gavinc> also http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-11 not so much :( 15:02:57 <Zakim> +??P3 15:03:07 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P3 15:03:07 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it 15:03:07 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg 15:03:15 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb 15:03:17 <gavinc> 2012.07.25 15:03:18 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/ 15:03:21 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me 15:03:21 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it 15:03:55 <Zakim> +[OpenLink] 15:04:02 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me 15:04:02 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 15:04:04 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 15:04:04 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:04:18 <Zakim> +PatH 15:04:20 <pfps> gregg: 11 July minutes are OK, except that they don't identify markus 15:04:35 <pfps> gregg: I'll try to fix them up 15:04:43 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25 15:05:01 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg 15:05:19 <zwu2> zakim, code? 15:05:19 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 15:05:41 <pfps> Both minutes appear to be OK to me. 15:05:53 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aacc 15:06:07 <cgreer> zakim, aacc is me 15:06:07 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it 15:06:27 <Zakim> +??P28 15:06:31 <manu> zakim, I am ??P28 15:06:31 <Zakim> +manu; got it 15:06:37 <ivan> q+ 15:06:41 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25-v1.html#line0097 15:06:48 <pfps> david: is there a proposal from the straw poll on inverse in Turtle? 15:06:54 <pfps> gavin: no, and no action 15:07:16 <pfps> david: will you take an action? 15:07:23 <pfps> gavin: OK 15:08:11 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aadd 15:08:14 <davidwood> Action: Gavinc to create a proposal for inverse property syntax in Turtle 15:08:14 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Gavinc 15:08:23 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aadd is me 15:08:23 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it 15:08:29 <zwu2> zakim, mute me 15:08:29 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted 15:08:36 <davidwood> Action: Gavin to create a proposal for inverse property syntax in Turtle 15:08:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-180 - Create a proposal for inverse property syntax in Turtle [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-08-15]. 15:09:48 <PatH> I'll have a peppermlnt, thanks. 15:10:23 <gavinc> Scribe problem: the name 'mlnt' does not match any of the 52 active names. 15:11:16 <ivan> zakim, mute me 15:11:16 <Zakim> Ivan was already muted, ivan 15:11:44 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-11 15:11:49 <PatH> sounds like the olympics. 15:12:45 <pfps> Now 11 July minutes look fine. 15:13:02 <pfps> david: Any problems with 11 July minutes? 15:13:21 <pfps> 25 July minutes do not call out the straw pool 15:13:35 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25#line0099 15:13:35 <pfps> sandro: you can use the line links 15:13:36 <mlnt> mlnt has joined #rdf-wg 15:13:51 <sandro> eg http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25#line0097 15:13:59 <pfps> Proposed: accept minutes for 11 and 25 July 15:15:18 <sandro> resolved: accept minutes for 11 and 25 July 15:14:13 <pfps> Subtopic: Action item review 15:14:24 <pfps> david: my action is done, close? 15:14:25 <sandro> +1 15:14:26 <pfps> OK 15:14:36 <pfps> Close action 177 15:14:43 <mlnt> Zakim, what's the code? 15:14:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mlnt 15:15:53 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open 15:15:54 <sandro> action-177? 15:15:54 <trackbot> ACTION-177 -- David Wood to create blog post on swig blog for Turtle LC -- due 2012-07-18 -- CLOSED 15:15:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/177 15:16:39 <pfps> pat: I claim success on action 178! 15:16:40 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/178 15:17:16 <ivan> Pat's mail on the provenance issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Aug/0014.html 15:17:19 <pfps> pat: I'll fix up the action status and include the email link. 15:17:44 <Zakim> +??P35 15:17:51 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my 15:18:26 <davidwood> Zakim, P35 is mlnt 15:18:26 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named 'P35' 15:18:41 <davidwood> Zakim, ??P35 is mlnt 15:18:41 <Zakim> +mlnt; got it 15:18:57 <mlnt> thanks david 15:19:14 <pfps> Subtopic: next meeting 15:19:29 <pfps> david: 22 Aug, then 5 Sept, then weakly 15:19:42 <pfps> david: 22 Aug will be on named graphs 15:20:06 <pfps> SubTopic: F2F 15:20:11 <AZ> s/weakly/weekly/ 15:21:04 <pfps> F2F is at TPAC (29-30 Oct) 15:20:55 <gavinc> Is there still no remote possibility at TPAC? 15:21:11 <pfps> david: start wiki page on F2F 15:21:24 <ivan> Participants should also register on https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2012/ 15:21:33 <pfps> Action david: start wiki page for F2F 15:21:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-181 - Start wiki page for F2F [on David Wood - due 2012-08-15]. 15:22:36 <pfps> david: If you are attending in person please register for TPAC and also pay (separate page) 15:22:48 <pfps> david: sandro/ivan remote participation? 15:23:00 <pfps> sandro: phone bridge via speaker phone and usual machinery 15:23:14 <pfps> david: should we have a remote meeting room (US?) 15:23:23 <pfps> sandro: no one will be at MIT 15:23:46 <PatH> In the past, skype with video has been useful. 15:23:52 <pfps> david: I'll ask on in the wiki page and ask who would like to be in a remote meeting 15:24:21 <pfps> arnaud: note that we can't change the meeting time 15:24:56 <pfps> david: sure, so it'll be very early in the US 15:25:03 <PatH> share the jetlag. Seems kind of socialist to me. 15:25:32 <pfps> Topic: Provenance LC reviews 15:25:37 <pfps> david: volunteers? 15:25:52 <pfps> path: I checked some issues, but I don't know whether that it a review 15:26:10 <pfps> david: we owe the PWG a formal review, any volunteers? 15:26:29 <ivan> q+ 15:26:37 <pfps> pat: what is a formal review 15:26:49 <pfps> david: at least everything relevant to us, but maybe everything 15:26:58 <pfps> david: anyone can comment 15:27:08 <ivan> q- 15:27:26 <pfps> david: the RDF WG should have a formal response, however 15:28:14 <pfps> Topic: Turtle LC 15:28:26 <pfps> david: gavin, how did you set up LC tracking 15:28:39 <pfps> gavin: poorly, as I had problems with connecting 15:29:08 <ivan> q+ 15:29:15 <pfps> david: it is important that *everyone* gets a response, but an entire thread can have a single response, as long as everyone is CC'd 15:29:35 <davidwood> ack ivan 15:29:39 <pfps> david: any non-editorial issues need to be highlighted so the WG looks at it 15:29:46 <pfps> gavin: only one so far is inverses 15:30:25 <pfps> ivan: when we come to PR we need an overview for all comments, so tracking using W3C resources can help 15:30:47 <pfps> david: I had proposed to use tracker with a special product for Turtle LC 15:31:05 <pfps> ivan: OK 15:31:16 <pfps> ivan: adding inverse properties will likely trigger a second LC 15:31:31 <manu> q+ to ask about hooking JSON-LD issue tracker up to public-rdf-comments (new topic) 15:31:47 <pfps> david: it would be nice if we can get a second LC started before the first LC ends 15:32:04 <pfps> ivan: process probably requires second LC start after the first one ends 15:32:29 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 15:32:29 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 15:32:37 <pfps> sandro: do we need to wait? It would be odd, but why would anyone be bothered? 15:32:42 <PatH> +1 sandro 15:33:04 <pfps> macted: if there is another change, then it might trigger a third last call 15:33:39 <pfps> gavin: inverses may trigger a lot of comments 15:33:41 <sandro> (gavin is the person talking other than Ivan, David, and me) 15:34:13 <pfps> david: did anyone ask Dave Beckett, he had an opinion on no changes 15:34:35 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 15:34:35 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:35:18 <pfps> gavin: Dave felt that changes should be only for major pain points, evidenced by screaming 15:35:29 <pfps> sandro: It appears that inverse meets the bar 15:35:38 <SteveH> I'm not convinced it's good idea either FWIW 15:36:32 <pfps> sandro: If people add inverse properties solely to get the effect of inverse Turtle lines then that is good evidence 15:36:34 <AndyS> The divergence from SPARQL (Update) is a cost. 15:36:38 <PatH> And RDFa effectively has inverse and it works fine. 15:37:22 <pfps> gavin: there is no implementation response, and people use inverses even when the syntax does support inverted predicates 15:37:26 <davidwood> q? 15:37:26 <sandro> q? 15:37:26 <AndyS> q? 15:37:33 <davidwood> ack manu 15:37:33 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to ask about hooking JSON-LD issue tracker up to public-rdf-comments (new topic) 15:38:00 <gavinc> rev is NOT a good example of people using it :P 15:38:07 <davidwood> manu, we will discuss that topic next 15:38:12 <manu> Also, the WHATWG /hates/ @rev 15:38:15 <pfps> ivan: RDFa has inverses, but it is rarely used 15:38:21 <PatH> I use it all the time. Maybe I am wierd. 15:38:22 <pfps> ivan: I found it useful in a few cases 15:38:25 <manu> and Digital Bazaar has found that @rev is very useful. 15:38:46 <pfps> gavin: I can't explain @rev in RDFa 15:38:51 <davidwood> 3 Round Stones and Callimachus users make great use of @rev 15:38:51 <manu> Their reason is that "regular authors" don't understand what @rev does... 15:38:55 <manu> (which is true) 15:39:03 <pfps> ivan: so it's rarely used, and then only by experts 15:39:17 <manu> also... "regular authors" don't understand... WebGL, Web Audio, Canvas, <i> vs. <em>, etc. 15:39:20 <MacTed> "when you want it, you *really* want it..." 15:39:35 <PatH> We have three hard use cases versus a mess of anecdote. Sorry, but thats the way it seems. 15:40:05 <pfps> gavin: I don't see any examples of reverse in N3 or Manchester 15:40:32 <SteveH> it's sugar, so there's no situation where you can /need/ it 15:40:39 <SteveH> though it may make your text look neater 15:41:19 <AndyS> :x^:p is [:p :x] and is in the subject or object position. 15:42:18 <pfps> david: syntactic sugar for reverse can be essential if you can't write them the wright way around 15:42:28 <PatH> lol 15:42:48 <pfps> steveh: you can always (in Turtle) flip things around 15:43:05 <pfps> david: you can't always do this if you don't control the data 15:43:19 <AndyS> I note this does not answer the original commenters request nor adopts N3. 15:43:23 <pfps> steveh: I don't see this, but let's discuss off-line 15:43:38 <pfps> ivan: what's the route to the sea 15:43:54 <pfps> david: waiting for gavin's proposal 15:43:58 <PatH> downhill, usually. 15:44:16 <pfps> andy: adding reverse doesn't answer the original comment 15:44:26 <pfps> david: let's await gavin's proposal 15:44:39 <AndyS> See "Paths" in http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/n3/ 15:44:51 <gavinc> WG said ^, TimBL said is .. of 15:45:18 <pfps> ivan: it is the WG's responsibility to decide what to do 15:45:25 <sandro> echo ":a is :b of :c." | python swap/cwm.py -quiet 15:45:25 <sandro> @prefix : <#> . 15:45:25 <sandro> 15:45:25 <sandro> :c :b :a . 15:45:45 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/n3/#path 15:45:50 <pfps> andy: N3 has something different - paths 15:46:07 <pfps> sandro: caret is different from ... is ... of 15:46:43 <gavinc> Don't need @ "If no @keywords directive is given, qualified names all have colons, and unquoted alphanumerics are all keywords. Only the keywords is, of, and a may be used naked." 15:46:50 <pfps> david: andy, does Timbl want both bang and caret? 15:47:10 <pfps> andy: don't know, I believe that it is is/of 15:47:18 <pfps> gavin: the WG didn't like is/of 15:47:40 <pfps> sandro: caret is very close to is/of where it can occur 15:47:52 <pfps> andy: yes 15:47:59 <PatH> So it has come to this, exploding carrots. 15:49:00 <pfps> gavin: no implementation experience, even N3 is different 15:49:27 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 15:49:27 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 15:49:51 <pfps> andy: is/of has a NL flavour, which caret doesn't, so there is a big difference 15:50:21 <pfps> sandro: the WG didn't like an NL approach 15:51:03 <gavinc> "The reverse traversal, x^p means [ p x ] . For either forward or backward traversal, p is a property, and x can be a whole path with both ! and ^ in it." 15:51:21 <AndyS> :x^:p!:q :prop 123 . 15:51:46 <pfps> andy: [N3 is much more complex] 15:52:19 <pfps> ivan: our caret is part of N3 reverse traversal 15:52:23 <gavinc> "I would like to formalize the request I have made at intervals to include the is ... of syntax as in N3 in Turtle." 15:53:03 <pfps> sandro: I would like to respond that caret does something similar to SPARQL 15:53:26 <pfps> gavin: can we first respond directly to the commenter to see if our solution is acceptable 15:54:10 <pfps> david: there are two different solutions here 15:54:27 <PatH> My understanding is that none of these syntaxes actually *create* the inverse property, they are all syntactic ways to indicate a p b while writing some thing with the a and b in the reverse order. 15:54:49 <PatH> DO I have that wrong? 15:55:00 <AndyS> yes 15:55:02 <PatH> OK, ta. 15:55:21 <pfps> sandro: they are both syntactic sugar and neither creates a new property 15:55:50 <AndyS> :a ^:p :b . 15:55:56 <AndyS> :b :p :a . 15:56:26 <pfps> andy: which means that Turtle is further from the triples 15:56:49 <PatH> That seems like an argument against any kind of parsing at all. 15:56:55 <pfps> gavin: there is no way to regenerate the carets 15:57:19 <SteveH> the store could tag triples that were inverse, but lets not go there 15:57:33 <PatH> indeed. 15:57:37 <Zakim> +ericP 15:57:44 <zwu2> no tagging please 15:58:04 <davidwood> q? 15:58:18 <pfps> david: what to tell Gavin? 15:59:07 <pfps> ivan: let's tell Tim that the NL proposal won't fly; that we are considering using caret, which clashes with N3 15:59:18 <cygri> +1 to ivan's proposal 16:00:41 <pfps> david: so let's wait for a proposal until we get information back from Tim 16:00:48 <pfps> david: gavin, can you respond to Tim 16:00:56 <pfps> gavin: OK 16:01:07 <pfps> Topic: JSON LD comment 16:01:26 <pfps> david: can we hook up the Jason LD tracker to rdf comments? 16:02:26 <pfps> gregg: it should be possible using some automated filter 16:02:56 <pfps> gregg: we are using git-hub currently 16:03:22 <ivan> zakim, mute me 16:03:22 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted 16:03:40 <pfps> sandro: will this push all JSON-LD emails into the WG mailing list 16:03:54 <pfps> gregg: no, we'll have a filter in the middle 16:04:47 <pfps> gregg: right now comments are supposed to go to rdf-comments, but people can directly comment on the issues in the tracker 16:04:55 <manu> manu has joined #rdf-wg 16:05:10 <pfps> sandro: a manual approach would be to just tell posters to also send to rdf-comments 16:05:56 <gavinc> No, it doesn't work if it goes via a mailing list 16:06:04 <mlnt> you have to have a GitHub account to be able to reply by mail 16:06:14 <pfps> gregg: we would have to test the various situations 16:06:37 <gavinc> do we have an -archive for the RDF-WG? 16:07:06 <pfps> sandro: the W3C process is that the everything ends up on the email list 16:07:23 <Zakim> -zwu2 16:07:26 <sandro> sandro: I'd suggest once a week summarizing the github activity to public-rdf-comments 16:08:31 <pfps> manu: we could do a summary, but an automated link might be closer and better 16:09:01 <PatH> JSON really makes things so very simple. I love it. 16:09:11 <pfps> sandro: if you need to follow the JSON-LD stuff you really need to be on github, so a summary might be best 16:09:16 <gkellogg> +0 16:09:17 <cygri> -1 16:09:18 <ivan> -1 16:09:18 <sandro> strawpoll: +1 if you want the mailing lsits bridged -1 if not 16:09:18 <manu> +1 to have it reflected 16:09:20 <davidwood> +0 16:09:21 <gavinc> -0.1 to more github emails 16:09:23 <mlnt> +1 16:09:25 <AndyS> 0 16:09:29 <SteveH> -1 16:09:38 <ivan> to be clear: it may be good, but it leads to too much confusions 16:09:59 <pfps> gregg: OK, we'll do the summary method 16:10:39 <pfps> sandro: the -comments list needs to get anything that is non-editorial 16:11:04 <pfps> gregg: OK 16:11:12 <sandro> sandro: excellent 16:11:16 <pfps> Topic: AOB 16:11:29 <pfps> david: done 16:12:00 <pfps> david: 22 Aug, "Return to Naton Place" 16:12:18 <pfps> gavin: agenda request, n-triples 16:12:38 <ivan> zakim, unmute me 16:12:38 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted 16:12:43 <pfps> rrsagent, create minutes 16:12:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/08-rdf-wg-minutes.html pfps 16:13:12 <Zakim> -MacTed 16:13:17 <Zakim> -cgreer 16:13:18 <Zakim> -sandro 16:13:18 <Zakim> -PatH 16:13:18 <Zakim> -Arnaud 16:13:19 <Zakim> -SteveH 16:13:19 <Zakim> -Ivan 16:13:19 <Zakim> -David 16:13:21 <Zakim> -ericP 16:13:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg 16:13:24 <Zakim> -AlexHall 16:13:25 <Zakim> -mlnt 16:13:28 <Zakim> -gkellogg 16:13:30 <Zakim> -gavinc 16:13:31 <Zakim> -AZ 16:13:35 <Zakim> -AndyS 16:13:37 <Zakim> -cygri 16:13:44 <manu> zakim, who is on the call? 16:13:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IBM], manu 16:13:51 <manu> zakim, disconnect manu 16:13:51 <Zakim> manu is being disconnected 16:13:53 <Zakim> -manu 16:13:55 <AndyS> ADJOURNED # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000361