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Chatlog 2011-11-09
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15:55:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 15:55:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/09-rdf-wg-irc 15:55:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 15:55:07 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 15:55:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394 15:55:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 15:55:10 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference 15:55:10 <trackbot> Date: 09 November 2011 15:56:35 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started 15:56:36 <swh> swh has joined #rdf-wg 15:56:36 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aaaa 15:57:38 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg 15:58:50 <MacTed> I can't make today's call, but hoped I could throw a few words in quickly about graph (and other) identification... 15:58:51 <MacTed> URIs may well be defined as "global in scope" as Pat frequently states -- but people just don't use names or any other identifier consistently in any space, and I am convinced that RDF/WWW/GGG/BBQ will be no different. 15:58:51 <MacTed> Most people may agree that <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tomato> denotes the red fruit (as the /page/ currently states) -- but plenty of authors will say that it may be a generic term for a woman of the 1920s (see <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tomato>). 15:58:51 <MacTed> Graphs (Gsnaps, Gboxes, Gtexts, etc.) are no different than anything else. People have used and use do and will use URIs incorrectly. 15:58:52 <Zakim> +??P4 15:58:54 <MacTed> We have to accept and work with that, or nothing we do will be worth the doing except within the rarified world of logic. 15:58:54 <Zakim> -??P4 15:58:54 <Zakim> +??P4 15:58:57 <MacTed> "Local context" is a fact of life, and RDF having originally been defined *within an isolated context* should not prevent its evolving to recognize that fact. 15:58:59 <swh> Zakim, ??P4 is me 15:58:59 <Zakim> +swh; got it 15:59:09 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:59:09 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:59:10 <Zakim> +Ivan 15:59:19 <Zakim> + +1.540.898.aabb 15:59:19 <MacTed> and with that bombshell.... :-) 16:01:27 <cygri_> cygri_ has joined #rdf-wg 16:01:28 <Zakim> + +1.415.309.aadd 16:01:32 <yvesr> yvesr has joined #rdf-wg 16:01:37 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, aadd is me 16:01:37 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll; got it 16:01:43 <Scott_Bauer> Scott_Bauer has joined #rdf-wg 16:01:47 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me 16:01:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted 16:02:01 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg 16:02:01 <Zakim> +??P15 16:02:07 <zwu2> zakim, code? 16:02:09 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 16:02:15 <Zakim> + +3539149aaee 16:02:22 <cygri_> zakim, aaee is me 16:02:22 <Zakim> +cygri_; got it 16:02:29 <mischat> zakim, ??15 is me 16:02:29 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '??15' 16:02:41 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaff 16:02:45 <cgreer2> zakim, aaaa is me 16:02:45 <Zakim> +cgreer2; got it 16:02:47 <mischat> zakim, ??P15 is me 16:02:47 <Zakim> +mischat; got it 16:02:56 <davidwood> Zakim, aaaa is cgreer2 16:02:56 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 16:02:57 <zwu2> zakim, aaff is me 16:02:58 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it 16:03:22 <Zakim> +Tony 16:03:32 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me 16:03:32 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider 16:03:32 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it 16:04:02 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg 16:04:10 <davidwood> Zakim, pick a scribe 16:04:10 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mischat 16:04:14 <Zakim> +??P24 16:04:16 <davidwood> Zakim, pick a scribe 16:04:16 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cygri_ 16:04:31 <cygri> scribe: cygri 16:04:58 <cygri> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.09 16:05:06 <cygri> chair: David Wood 16:05:11 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P24 is me 16:05:11 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it 16:05:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:05:24 <cygri> topic: Admin 16:05:25 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me 16:05:25 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 16:05:34 <cygri> davidwood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 2 Nov telecon 16:05:36 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise ? 16:05:39 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-11-02 16:05:46 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (91%) 16:05:49 <cygri> RESOLUTION: accept the minutes of the 2 Nov telecon 16:06:01 <cygri> topic: Action item review 16:06:02 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open 16:06:13 <cygri> davidwood: lots of open actions, and none pending review 16:06:24 <cygri> ... do we have danbri today? apparently not 16:07:37 <cygri> ACTION-94? 16:07:37 <trackbot> ACTION-94 -- Richard Cyganiak to update http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) -- due 2011-10-12 -- OPEN 16:07:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/94 16:08:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg 16:08:15 <Zakim> +??P27 16:08:26 <cygri> cygri: no progress on my actions 16:08:43 <cygri> ... not sure about ACTION-94, i don't think i can do a great job on that, too many discussions have happend 16:09:00 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aahh 16:09:12 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg 16:09:21 <gavinc> ... what might I pick up? 16:09:21 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aaii 16:09:38 <davidwood> gavinc: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/94 16:09:53 <cygri> davidwood: cygri, can you mail the list to ask for new volunteer? 16:10:35 <cygri> ... goal is to update the page, comment on which proposals went nowhere, which technical issues are open etc ... best-effort 16:10:55 <cygri> gavinc: i can do that 16:11:10 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg 16:11:32 <cygri> davidwood: i'll take care of some of the editorial actions 16:11:37 <trackbot> ACTION-94 -- Gavin Carothers to update http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) -- due 2011-10-12 -- OPEN 16:11:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/94 16:11:51 <trackbot> ACTION-106 -- Gavin Carothers to add link from Turtle datatypes section to recommended list in concepts -- due 2011-11-09 -- OPEN 16:11:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/106 16:12:21 <trackbot> ACTION-105 -- Richard Cyganiak to contact pat and peter and make sure they are ok with putting list of XSD types into RDF Concepts -- due 2011-10-20 -- OPEN 16:12:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/105 16:12:45 <cygri> gavinc: i might do ACTION-105 too 16:13:05 <cygri> q+ 16:13:22 <mischat> the dateTime duration isn't in RDFie stuff 16:13:23 <JeremyCarroll> q+ 16:13:58 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me 16:13:58 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 16:14:04 <ericP> q+ to ask if we want to encourage canonical forms of XSD datatypes 16:14:39 <cygri> jeremycarroll: did we do anything about xsd duration? 16:14:50 <cygri> ... one group improved the duration types 16:15:00 <cygri> ... the type used to be unusable 16:15:18 <cygri> ... the problems with it were fixed somewhere. don't remember where 16:15:33 <sandro> I see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/ is currently in CR (for 4 months so far). 16:15:42 <cygri> ACTION: JeremyCarroll to check status of duration datatypes 16:15:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-117 - Check status of duration datatypes [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2011-11-16]. 16:15:54 <Zakim> +??P31 16:16:01 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me 16:16:01 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted 16:16:03 <ericP> this is different from owl time which, iirc, atomized the components of the time? 16:16:06 <AndyS> Several technical XML ones - qname, NOTATION, token 16:16:07 <cygri> pfps: i updated the action to include something on owl 16:16:08 <cygri> q- 16:16:12 <cygri> ack JeremyCarroll 16:16:34 <davidwood> ack ericP 16:16:34 <cygri> topic: XSD canonicalization 16:16:34 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if we want to encourage canonical forms of XSD datatypes 16:16:40 <sandro> +1 16:16:43 <cygri> ericP: do we want to encourage canonical forms of xsd types 16:16:47 <Zakim> + +33.4.77.42.aajj 16:16:47 <JeremyCarroll> q+ 16:16:54 <cygri> davidwood: i like that 16:17:06 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll 16:17:09 <AZ> Zakim, +33.4.77.42.aajj is me 16:17:09 <Zakim> +AZ; got it 16:17:34 <AndyS> q+ 16:17:39 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: the canonical form for decimal and int are different 16:18:01 <cygri> ... getting the canonical stuff right is hard 16:18:31 <cygri> davidwood: there were lots of email messages on 1 vs 1.0 16:18:54 <cygri> ericP: and yet it seems to be desirable 16:18:57 <gavinc> I think XSD 2 does a good job of listing the canonical form of all them now? 16:19:09 <AndyS> This is fixed now. 16:19:13 <cygri> davidwood: we could ignore this completely, or do only the simple ones, or do all 16:19:14 <swh> yes 16:19:19 <AndyS> q? 16:20:05 <davidwood> ack AndyS 16:20:18 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: every solution will make someone unhappy. perhaps better to do nothing 16:20:31 <mischat> wishes there was a better solution than http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/gregorian-interval/2010-07-19T00:00:00/P0Y0M0DT0H30M 16:20:35 <cygri> ACTION: JeremyCarroll to summarize issues relating to XSD canonicalization 16:20:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-118 - Summarize issues relating to XSD canonicalization [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2011-11-16]. 16:20:52 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-1/ 16:20:56 <cygri> AndyS: canonical form for integer changes in XSD 1.1 16:21:04 <cygri> ... integer is now "1", no longer "1.0" 16:21:15 <cygri> davidwood: this might make it tractable for us 16:21:31 <cygri> AndyS: owl has normative dependency on XSD 1.1 16:21:45 <cygri> davidwood: so we almost have an obligation to handle this too 16:21:55 <cygri> AndyS: depends … is this may, should, must? 16:22:05 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me 16:22:05 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted 16:22:09 <cygri> davidwood: charter says we should align RDF with other recommendations and best practices 16:22:16 <cygri> ... seems this is worthy of our time 16:22:26 <cygri> AndyS: it's good to put in some text to encourage it 16:22:44 <cygri> davidwood: i'd be happy with a should 16:23:43 <cygri> davidwood: anybody willing to take an action on summarizing the work that would need to be done? 16:23:47 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me 16:23:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 16:24:19 <cygri> ... i think that touches semantics too 16:24:22 <cygri> pfps: why? 16:24:35 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: as andy said, the value is what matters 16:24:46 <cygri> ... one school of thought: we don't care how you write down the value 16:25:13 <cygri> ... other school of thought: the value is what you write 16:25:21 <ericP> but RDF has little more logic can graph equivalence so the lexical form is critical 16:25:28 <cygri> ... unlikely that there's consensus 16:25:34 <ericP> q+ to talk about SPARQL 16:25:45 <mischat> fwiw, as it stands, RDF Semantic states that xsd:duration shouldn't be used : http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#DTYPEINTERP 16:25:48 <cygri> davidwood: what does SPARQL say about this? 16:25:59 <Zakim> +??P34 16:25:59 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me 16:26:00 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted 16:26:11 <cygri> ericP: there's a difference between RDF graph equivalence and xpath equivalence 16:26:14 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P34 is me 16:26:14 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it 16:26:24 <AndyS> q+ to update Eric's answer for SPARQL 1.1 :-) 16:26:30 <JeremyCarroll> machat, yes duration is broken ... iw was well known when xsd 1.0 came out 16:26:38 <davidwood> ack ericP 16:26:38 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to talk about SPARQL 16:26:40 <JeremyCarroll> they were out of time 16:26:42 <davidwood> ack AndyS 16:26:42 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to update Eric's answer for SPARQL 1.1 :-) 16:26:53 <cygri> AndyS: SPARQL 1.1 has D-entailment which gives value-based processing 16:27:04 <cygri> ericP: but that's not regular sparql processing? 16:27:15 <cygri> AndyS: it's not in the lowest form of processing 16:27:29 <cygri> davidwood: you can get around all of that with filters? 16:27:39 <cygri> AndyS: yes, not all engines do it 16:28:36 <cygri> topic: Named Graphs 16:28:46 <davidwood> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0025.html 16:30:04 <cygri> pfps: i thought named graphs should show up in rdf concepts without changing semantics 16:30:13 <cygri> ... now we talk about changing semantics 16:30:23 <cygri> ... i disagree with a lot of that, and the rest i don't understand 16:30:39 <cygri> davidwood: do you disagree with andy's position on this? 16:31:11 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me 16:31:11 <Zakim> sorry, gavinc, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 16:31:19 <gavinc> Zakim, who is on the phone? 16:31:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see cgreer2, swh, Ivan, davidwood, +1.781.899.aacc, JeremyCarroll (muted), mischat, cygri_, zwu2, Scott_Bauer, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.603.897.aagg, yvesr, AndyS, 16:31:22 <Zakim> ... danbri, +1.707.861.aahh, +1.617.324.aaii, ??P31, AZ, yvesr.a 16:31:29 <gavinc> Zakim, aahh is me 16:31:29 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it 16:31:33 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me 16:31:33 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted 16:31:52 <cygri> pfps: i'm worried about the idea that named graphs has to do with the current state of the semantic web 16:32:10 <danbri> I tried to write up the dilbert scenario http://danbri.org/words/2011/11/03/753 just so it's documented as a scenario (without assuming any particular approach) 16:32:12 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to stromgly disagree with peter :) 16:32:13 <pfps> I worry very much about anything that puts the current state of the Web into RDF Semantics. 16:32:39 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me 16:32:39 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 16:32:47 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll 16:32:47 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to stromgly disagree with peter :) 16:33:08 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: W3C is a web consortium. the state of the web is fundamentally interesting 16:33:52 <cygri> q+ 16:34:02 <pfps> q+ 16:34:04 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me 16:34:04 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted 16:34:18 <danbri> (I don't see 'current state of the Web' in pat's proposal; maybe I read too fast) 16:34:31 <cygri> q- 16:34:31 <cygri> q+ 16:35:26 <JeremyCarroll> me thinks there is a transatlantic misunderstanding about domestic incidents 16:36:29 <davidwood> q? 16:36:49 <cygri> AndyS: in that message i tried to capture the notion that there's a two-stop process in going from trig file to graph. name goes to something, something goes to graph 16:37:02 <cygri> ... the named graphs paper says the relation is "denote" 16:37:23 <cygri> ... n3 says it's the owl:sameAs relation 16:37:37 <cygri> ... but other things are possible. "it's where i downloaded it from" 16:37:57 <gavinc> Zakim, who is talking 16:37:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', gavinc 16:37:58 <cygri> ... that's what ppl often do because it's convenient, even though it's a time-varying relationship 16:38:00 <gavinc> Zakim, who is talking? 16:38:12 <Zakim> gavinc, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (81%), danbri (17%) 16:38:14 <cygri> ... Sandro talked about writing down good practice 16:38:37 <cygri> ... the good practice would be to fix the second step to "denote" 16:38:54 <danbri> yes - good to write down best practice; not clear what best practice actually *is* 16:39:04 <pfps> q- 16:39:07 <davidwood> ack pfps 16:39:14 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:39:19 <Zakim> +??P1 16:39:21 <swh> +1 to danbri 16:40:13 <AndyS> Agree there is > 1 "good practice" 16:40:57 <AndyS> ... maybe, "patterns", or "ways to use the machinery" 16:42:03 <AZ> +1 cygri 16:42:13 <davidwood> q? 16:42:27 <cygri> cygri: i think we can handle "state of the web" without going into semantics 16:43:05 <cygri> ... awww, REST etc already handle "state of the web" well, and it might be less dangerous to leave the relationship of that to the RDF data model a bit fuzzy 16:43:13 <sandro> zakim, who is making noise? 16:43:19 <Zakim> - +1.617.324.aaii 16:43:26 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (16%), cygri_ (5%), Peter_Patel-Schneider (9%) 16:43:52 <mischat> zakim, mute me 16:43:52 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 16:44:06 <cygri> zakim, cygri_ is me 16:44:06 <Zakim> +cygri; got it 16:45:03 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aakk 16:45:13 <ericP> Zakim, aakk is me 16:45:13 <Zakim> +ericP; got it 16:45:40 <sandro> q? 16:45:43 <sandro> q+ 16:45:48 <cygri> AndyS: i wasn't trying to propose a conceptual model, but find a more concrete way of talking about the machinery 16:46:19 <cygri> ... i prefer the view that there's a loose association between uri and graph 16:46:34 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to suggest using dilbert cube move use case 16:46:36 <cygri> ... with perhaps a way of making it more explicit 16:46:52 <sandro> q- 16:47:13 <cygri> davidwood: i asked kendall clark what a named graph is in stardog 16:47:32 <cygri> ... he said, a possibly empty partition of a database 16:47:43 <cygri> ... that's how many stores treat it 16:47:50 <sandro> "A named graph is a possibly empty partition of an RDF database" -- that's the concept within the RDF database community. 16:48:00 <cygri> ... there's shared conceptual understanding in the rdf database community, but not outside of that community 16:48:37 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me 16:48:37 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 16:48:43 <cygri> AndyS: in databases, the fact that it's a partition is a secondary issue 16:48:51 <cygri> ... the question is, why is it partitioned? 16:48:59 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: i'm unhappy with kendall's phrasing 16:49:31 <cygri> ... when we talk about the web, a named graph is almost like a cached set of triples 16:49:49 <cygri> ... [summarizes webarch] 16:50:33 <cygri> AndyS: your model is a commonly used one ... how does it fit the notion in the named graph paper? 16:51:50 <davidwood> JeremyCarroll, that sounds like Plato's Theory of Forms in that an RDF Graph is only ever abstract and its current home has no particular bearing. 16:52:36 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: a set of named graphs is a cache of the web as defined by web architecture specs 16:53:13 <gavinc> +1 RDF wayback machine 16:53:23 <davidwood> I think JeremyCarroll said that a set of named graphs is a cache of *representations* 16:53:38 <davidwood> Is that so? 16:53:43 <cygri> ... a graph name is a url. webarch already says what's the value of the corresponding graph. it's a solved problem. 16:54:29 <cygri> AndyS: you could write down in your data what purpose you're using the 4th slot for 16:54:37 <cygri> q+ 16:54:43 <JeremyCarroll> ack 16:54:47 <JeremyCarroll> q- 16:54:54 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:55:44 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me 16:55:44 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted 16:55:51 <davidwood> q? 16:56:14 <ericP> i don't agree that the RDB world does a better job with catalog, etc. 16:56:27 <davidwood> ericP, agreed 16:56:31 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to respond to richard overloading 16:56:34 <ericP> i think that stuff is more about namespace scoping 16:56:55 <cygri> cygri: the fourth element is used for many different things ... once you try using it for one thing, you preclude other uses 16:57:15 <ericP> that i agree with completely 16:57:23 <cygri> AndyS: RDB world is simpler because they don't try to cache the web 16:57:45 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me 16:57:45 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 16:58:04 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll 16:58:04 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to respond to richard overloading 16:58:07 <cygri> davidwood: in an RDB you have lots of out-of-band context. in RDF when you share stuff on the web you have to make that context explicit 16:58:26 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: agree that the 4th slot is overloaded 16:58:48 <cygri> ... but the answer is: if you want to have something better, model it better 16:59:12 <cygri> ... 4th element is a simple generic mechanism 16:59:30 <cygri> ... and there's a toolkit for building something more complicated when you need it 16:59:33 <cygri> q+ 16:59:44 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me 16:59:44 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted 17:00:04 <davidwood> ack cygri 17:00:20 <gavinc> ... why are we trying to do that? 17:00:23 <ericP> cygri: we are trying this 4th element from the "cheap and cheerful" into something much more specific 17:00:57 <ericP> ... we're trying to say explicitly how that 4th col works and tie it to web semantics 17:01:07 <Zakim> -mischat 17:01:09 <ericP> ... i would be happy to keep it "cheep and cheerful" 17:01:23 <yvesr> s/cheep/cheap 17:01:25 <cygri> davidwood: 4th element is an IRI. people can say what it means. 17:01:52 <cygri> AndyS: i agree, but there's a caveat. there's also the relation between IRI and graph 17:01:57 <Zakim> +??P46 17:02:02 <cygri> davidwood: yes 17:02:10 <mischat> zakim, ??P46 is me 17:02:14 <Zakim> +mischat; got it 17:02:18 <mischat> zakim, mute me 17:02:38 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 17:02:39 <ericP> q+ to ask if this goes at all beyond what SPARQL had laid out 17:02:49 <davidwood> ack ericP 17:02:52 <AndyS> q? 17:02:53 <davidwood> q? 17:03:08 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if this goes at all beyond what SPARQL had laid out 17:03:15 <cygri> ericP: in SPARQL i have a name for a graph and some stuff inside 17:03:16 <cygri> ... i can make assertions about that graph 17:03:20 <yvesr> davidwood, you can't explicitly represent the relation between the IRI and the graph now (having an IRI for the graph is not enough, i guess) 17:03:45 <cygri> ... that's all there is in sparql at the moment 17:03:56 <davidwood> yvesr, right, we still would need to create a relation. 17:04:00 <Zakim> -gavinc 17:04:16 <davidwood> …but we avoid having a single meaning for the 4th slot 17:04:26 <cygri> AndyS: in SPARQL it's always a loose relation except in FROM NAMED where it's the web architeture relation 17:04:42 <yvesr> davidwood, yes 17:04:43 <cygri> ericP: allow bnodes in the 4th place? 17:04:57 <cygri> ... tricky because of scope 17:04:58 <JeremyCarroll> no bnodes in 4th place!! 17:05:04 <gavinc> No. 17:05:07 <davidwood> +1 JeremyCarroll 17:05:10 <Souri> No 17:05:13 <pchampin> but nevertheless, SPARQL suggests that someone can write <graph-iri> dc:creator "pchampin" . 17:05:13 <AZ> literals in the 4th place? 17:05:19 <zwu2> +1 Jeremy 17:05:36 <pchampin> ... which seems to imply that <graph-iri> is *naming* the graph 17:06:08 <cygri> AndyS: the case needs to be made for anything besides IRI in that slot 17:06:08 <Souri> no bNodes in 4th place please 17:06:10 <ericP> i'm happy with the "4th col is an IRI" constraint 17:06:20 <ivan> +1 to Sandro 17:07:30 <cygri> sandro: i want to see some examples of what i can do with the datasets proposal 17:07:57 <cygri> AndyS: there were two examples already 17:08:19 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#sec-graph-statements ;) 17:08:58 <cygri> sandro: i'm looking for a trig document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it 17:10:23 <cygri> ACTION: AndyS to create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it 17:10:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-119 - Create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-11-16]. 17:10:46 <davidwood> q? 17:10:48 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me 17:10:48 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 17:10:59 <zwu2> byte, have to go to another meeting. 17:11:01 <gavinc> Sorry, wife needed the phone line for health insurance :\ 17:11:09 <Zakim> -zwu2 17:11:12 <Zakim> +[OpenLink] 17:11:31 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is OpenLink_Software 17:11:31 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it 17:11:34 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 17:11:34 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 17:11:37 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 17:11:37 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 17:11:39 <cygri> JeremyCarroll: once you have an example i'll comment on it regarding correspondance with web architecture 17:11:42 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, mute me 17:11:42 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted 17:11:44 <cygri> topic: URI aliases for RDF terms 17:11:50 <ivan> q+ 17:11:52 <davidwood> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0006.html 17:11:54 <cygri> davidwood: should we just make an issue for this? 17:12:02 <davidwood> ack ivan 17:12:21 <cygri> ivan: reaction on the list convinced me that this would be difficult 17:12:43 <cygri> q+ 17:12:55 <davidwood> ack cygri 17:13:00 <cygri> cygri: RDF/RDFS/OWL URIs are too long and unwieldy for use in new tech like microdata. if that ship has really already sailed, then it might be sailing into a dead end 17:13:43 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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