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09:56:58 <myakura> Meeting: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A)
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09:57:37 <weinig> hi dsinger!
09:58:20 <myakura> oops.
09:58:22 <myakura> Meeting: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3B)
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10:06:22 <mjs> ScribeNick: mjs
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10:08:36 <Julian> Sam, http://greenbytes.de/tech/tc2231/ (test cases and links)
10:09:55 <mjs> agenda:
10:09:56 <mjs> (1) intro from Alexey
10:10:14 <mjs> (2) IANA / rel / MIME / charset
10:10:17 <weinig> Julian: thanks
10:10:32 <mjs> (3) URI / IRI
10:10:45 <anne> URL!
10:10:48 <mjs> (4) HTML: is it a good enough format to publish RFCs in?
10:11:23 <weinig> hsivonen, will do
10:11:33 <mjs> Alexey: I call you about the organization chart
10:12:14 <mjs> Alexey: I want to project the IANA slide that I think was skipped yesterday
10:12:19 <mjs> (setting up projector)
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10:14:35 <mjs> (IETF and IANA is projected)
10:14:50 <mjs> Alexey: IANA manages registries, and there are multiple entities that affect what IANA does
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10:15:13 <mjs> Alexey: If IETF adopts a procedure or defines a policy, IANA is required to follow it
10:15:23 <mjs> Alexey: IANA does give input on what the policy should be
10:15:38 <mjs> Alexey: IANA follows what IETF says in RFCs
10:16:02 <mjs> Alexey: the other entity that affects IANA is the IAB (Internet Architecture Board) - talks to IANA about policy decisions like licensing
10:16:32 <mjs> Alexey: IESG approves RFCs and so defines the formats, IAB controls the policy experts
10:16:56 <mjs> Alexey: If people are unhappy with IANA policies they should not blame IANA - except in the case where IANA is slow in updating something
10:17:04 <mjs> AVK: can blame them about format, URL persistence
10:17:34 <mjs> Alexey: there is a document, RFC5226 which defines standard procedures for registries
10:17:53 <mjs> Alexey: IETF can make any format that it wants, but there is a typical format for registries
10:18:08 <mjs> Alexey: registries can have different policies, templates, levels of restrictiveness
10:18:26 <mjs> Alexey: most permissive level is first come first serve
10:18:32 <mjs> Alexey: examples include vendor names
10:18:58 <mjs> Alexey: on the other end of the spectrum, the strictest ones require a standards track RFC
10:19:08 <mjs> Alexey: in the middle is a procedure called "specification required"
10:19:31 <mjs> Alexey: requires a stable specification from an IETF-recognized standards organization
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10:19:48 <mjs> HS: Is there an official definition of what is a recognized standards organization? there are different opinions
10:20:01 <mjs> Alexey: no, it's not defined; people don't want to fix the list
10:20:14 <mjs> Alexey: general criteria are: long established, stable document
10:20:41 <mjs> HS: why is stability a requirement? if the software moves faster than the registry, then the registry is out of date
10:20:54 <mjs> Alexey: depends on the registry - many registries are for developers
10:21:29 <mjs> Alexey: for example, as a developer you may want to find all the link relations
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10:21:39 <mjs> AVK: but as a developer, I find current IANA registries useless
10:21:47 <mjs> AVK: wikipedia is a better reference for URI schemes than IANA is
10:22:01 <mjs> AVK: vetting by experts makes registries incomplete and inaccurate
10:22:10 <mjs> HS: you said not just software implementors or others
10:22:24 <mjs> HS: for years, image/svg+xml wasn't in the registry
10:22:39 <mjs> HS: when Apple shipped MPEG-4, the type wasn't in the registry
10:22:52 <mjs> HS: I can't think of any constituency for whom the registry says all that they want to know, or even close
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10:22:58 <mjs> AVK: apart from pedants, maybe
10:23:04 <mjs> Alexey: a couple of comments on this
10:23:11 <mjs> Alexey: different registries have different policies
10:23:27 <mjs> Alexey: at the time when the registry was established, there was IETF consensus that this was the desired policy
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10:23:53 <mjs> Alexey: as time goes on, it may be that reality shows that a particular policy was too strict (or too permissive)
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10:24:10 <mjs> Alexey: maybe part of the answer is to revise the policy
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10:24:41 <mjs> HS: in the days of classic MacOS when Carbon was still used a lot, and you needed four char type and creator codes, it seemd that the value for those codes was smaller than the space for MIME types
10:25:08 <mjs> HS: so you'd think you'd have a greater need than for MIME types to limit who can get what, but Apple operated a registry on first-come first-serve basis and nothing bad came out
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10:25:27 <anne> MJS: you mentioned that it is possible to change the policy
10:25:39 <anne> ... assuming that some of the folks here are interested in a much more permissive policy
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10:25:56 <anne> ... what would be the process to get the IETF to change
10:26:14 <anne> Alexey: talk to the AD and talk to other people to initiate discussion
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10:26:22 <anne> Alexey: I'm happy to help with the progress
10:26:29 <mjs> Alexey: the other half of the answer
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10:26:42 <mjs> Alexey: there is a reason there are expert reviews for some of the registries, like MIME types
10:27:02 <mjs> Alexey: people do make stupid mistakes in MIME types, so there is an opportunities to fix this
10:27:29 <mjs> HS: one of the supposed mistakes is using the text/* subtree for a lot of stuff, and there I would claim the mistake on the IETF side
10:28:01 <mjs> AVK: what proportion of MIME types are not in use when they are registered? it seems like most of them already are deployed by the time you go to register them, so it might be too late to fix
10:28:16 <Julian> q+
10:28:16 <mjs> Alexey: in the ideal world, people should ask experts up front
10:28:17 <Julian> !
10:28:31 <mjs> Alexey: one example is that you can't use UTF-16 of textual types
10:28:33 <mjs> HS: that's bogus
10:28:49 <mjs> AVK: still insisting the case now is misguided
10:29:22 <mjs> JR: one thing that Anne mentioned - some registries have a provisional system
10:29:33 <mjs> JR: but not MIME types
10:29:45 <mjs> Alexey: vendor prefix ones are first-come first-server
10:30:04 <mjs> JR: other question -regarding the media type registration RFC, Larry has started discussing revising it in the TAG
10:30:22 <mjs> JR: for example, people sniff for types - we could make that more robust
10:30:35 <mjs> HS: I want to complain more about CR/LF
10:30:59 <mjs> HS: the history of CR/LF restriction and the fact that text/* defaults to US-ASCII in the absence of charsets...
10:31:10 <mjs> HS: this is an artifact of a leaky abstraction from SMTP
10:31:17 <Julian> q-
10:31:28 <mjs> HS: US-ASCII default is a theoretical most prudent default from the time when in email there wasn't an obvious default
10:31:38 <mjs> HS: but neither of those considerations apply to HTTP
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10:31:59 <mjs> HS: HTTP can send text that has line breaks that are not CR/LF
10:32:06 <mjs> HS: in fact for HTML, LF-only is preferred
10:32:22 <mjs> HS: it makes no sense to say that all these types like HTML, JavaScript and CSS are "wrong"
10:32:35 <mjs> HS: instead it would make more sense to say that CR/LF does not apply to HTTP
10:33:01 <mjs> HS: for some types, for historical reasons we need to default to Windows -1252 or UTF-8
10:33:20 <mjs> HS: pretending these need to be registered under the application/* subtree doesn't help anyone
10:33:35 <mjs> HS: it only serves the RFC canon that HTTP and SMTP match, but that doesn't help authors or implementors
10:33:47 <mjs> HS: line breaks should be based on transport protocol
10:34:13 <mjs> HS: types themselves should be able to define their default charset
10:34:30 <mjs> JR: if you look at the thing that Larry brought to the TAG about MIME on the Web...
10:34:33 <mjs> JR: he mentions all these problems
10:34:56 <mjs> JR: line break thing doesn't make sense on the Web
10:35:08 <mjs> JR: HTTP appears to use MIME, but doesn't, and doesn't need to
10:35:25 <mjs> JR: charset is also an issue for HTTP
10:35:59 <mjs> JR: conflict between MIME, HTTP and XML types on text/*
10:36:32 <mjs> HS: I actually implement RFC2023
10:36:40 <mjs> HS: I have a checkbox for saying ignore it
10:36:43 <anne> (There's a t-shirt saying "I support RFC 3023")
10:37:01 <mjs> HS: if I shipped the validator without the "ignore it" box, people couldn't use the validator
10:37:07 <mjs> JR: what's the default?
10:37:13 <mjs> HS: defaults to supporting it
10:37:51 <mjs> Alexey: comment on Web vs email - this needs to be discussed in IETF
10:38:12 <mjs> Alexey: if Web requires modified version of MIME, let's do it
10:38:19 <mjs> Alexey: there is a new WG in applications area
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10:38:35 <anne> APPSAWG
10:38:54 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:38:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html MikeSmith
10:39:06 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
10:39:17 <weinig> http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/charter/
10:39:36 <mjs> HS: it feels frustrating to actually have to discuss this
10:39:44 <mjs> HS: that people don't believe what they say on the web
10:40:02 <mjs> AVK: the feeling is that the IETF is so much behind, and then we have to get in and tell the old timers what the new world looks like
10:40:12 <mjs> AVK: we're not sure it is worth our time
10:40:15 <mjs> AVK: we have moved on
10:40:32 <mjs> Alexey: it is occasionally helpful to talk to people who designed the original
10:40:48 <mjs> Alexey: especially when it comes to character set - I think there is agreement from the original author
10:41:09 <mjs> AVK: I talked about some of the discussion about moving away from text/plain drafts, and people there express fear of Unicode....
10:41:36 <mjs> AVK: W3C is kind of slow too, but at least we think HTML and Unicode are ok
10:41:55 <mjs> HS: well, W3C isn't ready to publish HTML5 as HTML5 yet
10:42:05 <mjs> JR: IETF thinks HTML and Unicode are fine, just not for their documents
10:42:34 <mjs> Alexey: there is provisional registration
10:42:53 <hsivonen> s/that people don't believe what they say on the web/that people don't believe what they see on the web/
10:42:56 <mjs> AVK: for header fields, you need spec even for provisional
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10:43:08 <mjs> AVK: person guarding the header field registry was too conservative
10:44:03 <mjs> JR: does header name registry have a public mailing list
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10:44:28 <mjs> JR: registry lists should be public
10:44:45 <mjs> Alexey: can you draw cases like this to my attention? it might be implementation of process failures
10:44:50 <mjs> AVK: but if we look at URI schemes..
10:45:00 <mjs> Alexey: it's hard for me to defend the people who designed the procedure
10:45:17 <mjs> Alexey: there was a discussion about relaxing registration of certain types of URIs
10:45:40 <mjs> Alexey: so we could register things like skype or yahoo IM
10:45:58 <mjs> AVK: we are trying to register about: - there should be some registration pointing to the draft
10:46:16 <mjs> AVK: and for many headers, browsers have to know about them even if they are unregistered
10:46:35 <mjs> AVK: difficulty of using registry causes incentive to use X- names and just not registry
10:47:03 <mjs> JR: one thing we should look at is accountability - there needs to be a public mailing list for header registration
10:47:10 <mjs> JR: also Larry will join us to talk about IRI
10:47:30 <mjs> AVK: I would rather just get rid of IANA and have a W3C registry, with a community-managed wiki
10:48:02 <mjs> HS: to consider how the XHTML2 WG was doing things - at some point it was obvious that just giving feedback wasn't going to change the way they did things
10:48:25 <mjs> HS: so instead of trying to change the way they did things, another group did something else, and that became the group people paid more attention to
10:48:42 <mjs> HS: there is a feeling that fixing IANA is so difficult that it would just be easier to set up a wiki
10:48:58 <mjs> AVK: we could just compete
10:49:04 <mjs> Alexey: this is not helpful
10:49:35 <mjs> AVK: I would like a registry that would tell me X-Frame-Options exists
10:49:44 <mjs> AVK: I don't think this will ever fly at IANA
10:50:40 <mjs> HS: I have no experience of registration, but the language tag registry is a very positive role model
10:51:01 <mjs> Alexey: when I talk to IANA, they listen
10:51:19 <mjs> AVK: I think the problem is the process
10:51:31 <mjs> Alexey: I can help you initiate changing the process
10:51:45 <mjs> AVK: not sure I am interested in helping to fix the process if there is an easier path
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10:51:59 <mjs> HS: we should mention willful violations of the charset registry
10:52:31 <mjs> HS: it would be useful for the main charset registry to be the place to go to find out what you need to implement
10:52:47 <mjs> HS: the thing is that ISO-Latin1 should actually be interpreted as Windows-1252
10:52:49 <r12a-nb> q+
10:52:50 <MikeSmith> q+ to say that Zakim is here already
10:52:56 <MikeSmith> q-
10:53:04 <mjs> HS: another example is that instead of Shift-JS you need to use the Microsoft tables not the ISO tables
10:53:22 <r12a-nb> q-
10:53:24 <mjs> LM: I note that my draft covers many of these issues
10:53:34 <mjs> HS: not in this much detail; I will give feedback
10:53:49 <Julian> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-mime-web-info-01
10:53:52 <mjs> LM: I hope in the cases where there are willful violations, that the right thing to do is to fix the registry
10:54:17 <mjs> AVK:  in the case of the charset registry, there might be a need for separate registries for Web clients vs other clients
10:54:28 <mjs> HS: for example the Java platform uses the IANA names for charsets with their real meaning
10:54:46 <mjs> HS: it would not be good to change Java, so the registry should include both sets of info
10:55:00 <mjs> HS: JAva could add an API for Web content decoders
10:55:07 <mjs> LM: I think this is a three-phase process
10:55:13 <mjs> LM: (1) identify the problem
10:55:25 <mjs> LM: (2) identify which things need to change (w/o being explicit about how)
10:55:49 <mjs> LM: (3) then there needs to be action on the change
10:55:57 <mjs> LM: I would like to identify the problem and the kinds of changes first
10:56:05 <mjs> LM: only then decide whether to make a wiki, change the process, etc
10:56:14 <mjs> AVK: if you are already working on this, then that's great
10:56:23 <mjs> LM: I would be happy to have co-authors
10:56:29 <mjs> Alexey: at minimum we should talk
10:56:39 <mjs> LM: I think we should bring it into a working group or take it up as an action item
10:56:58 <mjs> LM: MIME is a part of the Web architecture that we have adopted without adopting it
10:57:09 <mjs> JR: we talked earlier about text/html and encoding
10:57:23 <mjs> LM: again I think we should describe the problem first
10:57:36 <mjs> LM: same thing might be said for URI schemes
10:58:09 <mjs> HS: given last call schedule (1H2010), how realistic is it that changes of these magnitude could go through the IETF
10:58:16 <mjs> HS: seems unlikely
10:58:39 <mjs> LM: my view is that a W3C document entering LC can make reference to documents at similar or behind level of maturity
10:58:48 <mjs> LM: they don't need to be final until you go to REC
10:59:54 <mjs> MS: (explains W3C process)
11:00:04 <mjs> HS: one reason I'm skeptical about the rate of change at IETF is the URL thing
11:00:19 <mjs> HS: we had rules in the HTML5 spec abut transforming href values to IRIs
11:00:27 <mjs> HS: it was argued that IRIbis was supposed to solve it
11:00:33 <mjs> HS: I remember there was a schedule
11:00:37 <mjs> LM: it's quite off
11:00:50 <mjs> HS: at the date when there was supposed to be a deliverable, they haven't even started
11:01:08 <mjs> HS: we shouldn't send things to the IETF to die
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11:01:31 <mjs> HS: I was really annoyed when I wanted to fix a bug relating to URL handling in Firefox and the spec did not have what was needed
11:01:56 <mjs> HS: I think that for URLs the process has had it chance and din't deliver
11:02:15 <mjs> RI: the original schedule was very aggressive and we never really expected meeting it
11:02:20 <mjs> LM: it was wildly optimistic
11:02:36 <mjs> LM: the problem with most standards activities is that there's nobody home except for people who showed up
11:02:53 <mjs> LM: if you look at the archives, there was really a fallow period, but since then it is picking up
11:03:06 <mjs> LM: meeting next week in beijing
11:03:18 <mjs> LM: people who care about URLs in HTML should show up online
11:03:50 <mjs> HS: there is also the problem that if people are already showing up in some venue, then moving the work to a different venue and then complaining that people didn't show up in the other venue is not productive
11:04:01 <mjs> LM: the problem really is that what was in the HTML document before was wrong
11:04:26 <mjs> LM: unfortunately there is complexity due to need to coordinate with IDNA and bidirectional IRIs
11:09:13 <mjs> HS: you need something that takes a base IRI, a relative reference as UTF-16, and a charset, and you get a URI/IRI back
11:09:43 <mjs> HS: my point is that the HTML spec doesn't need to deal with rendering any kind of address
11:10:01 <mjs> HS: it just cares about resolution / parsing
11:10:35 <mjs> HS: nothing about how to render an IRI
11:17:26 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:17:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:17:27 <mjs> HS: what is required is someone writing down the real-world algorithm for this resolution thing
11:17:42 <mjs> HS: and it needs to be somewhere that you can reference it
11:17:50 <mjs> HS: if it were in the IRI specification would it be ok for you
11:18:15 <mjs> HS: what I am annoyed about is that we had something that was right or fixable, was removed or delegated, and now we have to rewrite it
11:18:22 <mjs> HS: I am now betting on Adam delivering it
11:18:27 <mjs> JR: I would like to say one thing
11:18:51 <mjs> JR: we need to find the right separation between things that are just part of the attribute and things that are part of the the resolving algorithm
11:19:02 <mjs> JR: I think whitespace discarding is not part of the resolutions
11:19:46 <mjs> JR: there might be a step before resolving that is part of extracting from an attribute
11:20:02 <mjs> AVK: in the running code, whitespace stripping happens at the resolving end
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11:21:21 <mjs> LM: it would be nice if you could copy from the location bar into other apps
11:21:26 <mjs> HS: we are not talking about the location bar
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11:21:36 <mjs> JR: what about space-separated lists of URLs
11:21:41 <mjs> AVK: this is a different case
11:21:59 <mjs> LM: motivation for trying to start the work in the IETF was to make sure that URLs in HTML and in other apps weren't different
11:22:16 <mjs> LM: it is true that the work has been delayed, but activity has been restarted
11:22:41 <mjs> Alexey: you need to open bugs
11:22:41 <r12a-nb> s/HS: if it were in/RI: if it were in/
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11:22:57 <mjs> LM: Adam was at the last meeting
11:23:05 <Julian> q+
11:23:09 <mjs> LM: there is an IETF document of how to do IETF document
11:23:10 <mjs> q+
11:23:34 <mjs> HS: it's great the kinds of URLs that the web uses were the same as what other things use it, that would be great
11:23:38 <mjs> HS: but the Web is constrained
11:23:48 <r12a-nb> q+
11:24:01 <mjs> ack Julian
11:24:22 <mjs> JR: this was very useful, which I'm not sure was expected; we have another point about link relations, which is on the agenda
11:24:29 <mjs> ack
11:24:33 <mjs> ack mjs
11:26:08 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:26:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:26:16 <mjs> MS: in the future, we shouldn't delete things until the replacement is ready
11:26:33 <mjs> LM: chairs from IRI working group are prepared to add an additional charter item
11:26:40 <mjs> AVK: Adam is a bit reluctant to go back to the IETF
11:26:51 <mjs> ack r12a-nb 
11:27:01 <anne> (that was my impression)
11:27:13 <mjs> RI: it seems like there are discussions coming up in beijing where we need to be talking between the HTML WG and IETF
11:28:14 <mjs> LM: editors will be remote, so remote participation might be good
11:28:52 <MikeSmith> i/one reason I'm skeptical/Topic: URI/IRI [URL]/
11:28:55 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:28:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:29:12 <mjs> LM: how about file: URLs
11:29:21 <mjs> HS: they are not really on the Web
11:29:40 <mjs> HS: best thing to do for USB key is relative URLs
11:29:53 <r12a> whether it's beijing or not, i think we need to find a way to pursue this dialog with HTML5 folks and chairs/editors of the IRI spec
11:30:08 <mjs> RI: is something gonna happen
11:30:39 <mjs> RI: action items?
11:30:46 <MikeSmith> i/ I call you about the organization chart/Topic: intro from Alexey/
11:30:50 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:30:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:30:54 <mjs> LM: don't be skeptical - if you believe it will work
11:31:35 <mjs> ACTION: Henri to give feedback to Larry on MIME etc draft
11:33:41 <MikeSmith> i/Is there an official definition of what is a recognized standards organization/Topic: IANA, rel, MIME, charset/
11:33:44 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:33:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:33:54 <mjs> ACTION: Anne to give Alexey info about registry problems
11:34:39 <MikeSmith> started lunch break?
11:34:50 <mjs> MikeSmith, we're about it
11:34:54 <MikeSmith> k
11:35:18 <mjs> er, about to
11:35:34 <mjs> session adjuourned
11:35:39 <mjs> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:35:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html mjs
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15:11:02 <anne> fwiw, testing was half an hour delayed
15:11:21 <anne> not sure if anyone is actually in the other room yet
15:11:27 <anne> but since you just signed in...
15:18:28 <Julian> isn't testing at 5pm (50 mins from now?)
15:19:28 <anne> no
15:19:33 <anne> it's a double block
15:20:07 <Julian> oh
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15:34:45 <anne> yes
15:34:50 <anne> we are setting up
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15:35:19 <anne> dbaron, ^^
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15:35:57 <hsivonen> dbaron, we are in Rhone 3b
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15:36:38 <hendry> scribenick hendry
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15:36:51 <oedipus> scribenick: hendry
15:36:58 <plh> rrsagent, wher am I?
15:36:58 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'wher am I'
15:37:01 <plh> rrsagent, wherw am I?
15:37:01 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'wherw am I'
15:37:03 <plh> rrsagent, where am I?
15:37:03 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T15-37-03
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15:37:14 <hendry> TOPIC: Testing
15:37:55 <hendry> me:  to find the connection type, it's not slow or rather blocking is it?
15:37:55 <hendry> it's a fast operation Andrei:  yes, we fire online when the type changes
15:37:55 <hendry> type just caches last seen connection type
15:38:47 <hendry> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/
15:39:21 <hendry> [ scribe apologies for pasting in wrong buffer ]
15:40:16 <hendry> present+ Kai_Hendry
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15:41:21 <hendry> maciej: how to particpate in tasks tf, goals 
15:41:38 <plh> s/goals/testing framework/
15:41:43 <plh> kk: and goals for LC
15:41:50 <hendry> kk: Microsoft meet every two weeks
15:41:59 <plh> s/Microsoft/the TF/
15:42:13 <hendry> .. there is a wiki with schedule, there is a server with hg
15:42:34 <hendry> .. philippe has mirrored that work at http://dvcs.w3.org
15:43:03 <plh> --> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/ HTML test suite repository
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15:43:33 <hendry> .. same content on both servers
15:43:55 <plh> --> http://test.w3.org/html/ HTML Testing Area
15:44:09 <hendry> .. asking what to test ... localstorage, x-domain messaging, doing spec analysis
15:44:17 <hendry> .. looking at features which are shipping
15:44:25 <hendry> .. submitted some canvas tests
15:44:32 <plh> --> http://test.w3.org/html/tests/submission/PhilipTaylor/ Canvas test suite
15:44:38 <hendry> .. getElementsByClassname tests from Opera
15:44:55 <hendry> .. distinction between approved and un-approved tests
15:44:56 <plh> --> s/Canvas/Philipp Taylor/
15:45:05 <plh> s/Canvas/Philipp Taylor/
15:45:16 <hendry> .. bugzilla to process the test
15:45:24 <hsivonen> s/Philipp/Philip/
15:45:28 <plh> --> http://test.w3.org/html/tests/harness/harness.htm Test harness
15:45:35 <hendry> jonias: what is the harness ?
15:45:39 <hendry> anne: same as XHR
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15:45:56 <hendry> kk: tests run automatically
15:46:07 <hendry> .. video tests is hard to automate
15:46:13 <hendry> .. self-describing test
15:46:32 <hendry> .. some exceptions that you can't poke in the OM and you can't test it
15:46:48 <hendry> hsivonen: can you do some REFerence tests ?
15:47:10 <hendry> jonas: yes, there are some things
15:47:34 <hendry> kk: there are some things you can't test with REF tests, for e.g. Audio
15:49:41 <hendry> hsivonen: multi-testing question
15:50:36 <hendry> plh: some tests are manual and some tests are automatic
15:51:42 <hendry> kk: existing tests not using the testharness, it might not be worth re-writing them
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15:52:31 <hendry> plh: it's a bug, it shows the buttons, though its automatic
15:52:49 <hendry> kk: waits for 5 seconds before going to next test
15:53:15 <hendry> maciej: this UI is broken
15:53:31 <hendry> kk: can we get all the requirements up front ?
15:54:08 <hendry> kk: esp we need a plan with REF tests
15:54:49 <hendry> maciej: propsed categories; script driven, ref test, manual test
15:55:07 <hendry> .. too awkward with 100k tests ... takes too long to run
15:55:39 <hendry> plh: the test can indicate itself, if it's manual or automatic
15:56:30 <hendry> anne: if the test loads the test harness, we know it's an automatic test ( no need to categorise )
15:56:52 <hendry> hsivonen: just have 3 directories
15:57:16 <hendry> dbaron: you can harness the harness
15:57:46 <hendry> kk: we should do it in one file
15:58:04 <hendry> hsivonen: the easier way is to use directories
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15:58:15 <hendry> jonas: i don't care
15:58:42 <hendry> maciej: text file is harder to maintain than a directory, not big deal either way
15:59:48 <plh> scripts/
15:59:51 <plh> reftests/
15:59:52 <hendry> anne: we want directories for *types* of tests
15:59:53 <plh> manuals/
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16:00:54 <hendry> dbaron: painful to use dirs as metadata, as you may need to move them around
16:02:03 <hendry> kk: maybe we will come up with a new dir in some months time, prefers a text file as it wont change location
16:02:47 <hendry> jonas: bigger problem to have a done function call than 5 secs wait till test finishes
16:03:40 <hendry> anne: there is logic in the harness to handle this & async tests
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16:05:08 <hendry> hsivonen: [ didn't quite understand your implicit monkey test comment ]
16:05:37 <dbaron> s/have a done function call than 5 secs wait till test finishes/have a function call when the test finishes so we don't have to wait 5 seconds after each one loads/
16:05:51 <dbaron> plh: need a way to copy all the additional files that tests depend on
16:05:52 <hsivonen> I find that I almost always have to use the explicit finish function for scripted tests, so it's not a win to finish tests implicitly on onload
16:06:29 <hendry> jonas: we need to somehow markup dependencies
16:06:50 <hendry> sweinig: in the common case there will be no deps
16:07:16 <hendry> hsivonen: should we decide whether to allow data URLs ?
16:07:36 <hendry> anne: common resources makes sense
16:08:22 <hendry> hsivonen: you want to use data URLs for near 0 load times
16:08:43 <hendry> [ why does jonas use data URLs? didn't get his argument ] 
16:09:06 <hendry> kk: ie9 supports dataURIs
16:09:49 <hendry> .. might be a problem that browsers do not support dataURIs
16:10:52 <hendry> jonas: we need to list our deps and assumptions
16:11:51 <hendry> .. can we assume browsers have ES5, foreach is nice
16:12:31 <hendry> maceij: we should not use ES5 until it's widely implemented
16:13:11 <hendry> jonas: queryselector test cases were held up by WebIDL
16:14:35 <hendry> kk: e.g. of WebIDL false positive in canvas read only thing
16:15:16 <hendry> jonas: do we have any existing docs of assumptions?
16:15:22 <hendry> kk: there is just the source code
16:15:35 <hendry> .. can someone take an action to document them?
16:15:48 <hendry> anne: read the XHR tests :-)
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16:16:53 <krisk> testing wiki http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing
16:16:58 <hendry> jonas: these tests are already in directories
16:17:19 <hendry> kk: suggests documenting the tests in the wiki
16:18:06 <hendry> hsivonen: ... something about re-writing the "monkey tests" ??
16:18:31 <hsivonen> s/monkey/mochi/g
16:18:56 <hendry> anne: i'm fine with re-writing / using another harness
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16:19:38 <hendry> kk: first anchor test is very simple, it's not hard to migrate to james's harness
16:20:45 <hendry> jonas: make some requirements for making the tests portable between harnesses [ IIUC ]
16:21:59 <hendry> hsivonen: something about integration layer, which allows reporting into your own system (thanks anne)
16:22:00 <plh> --> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/ mercurial
16:23:16 <hendry> plh: you can commit a test if you have a W3C account 
16:24:30 <hendry> dbaron: might need to be aware with hg's push caveats [ to plh ]
16:25:26 <plh> ACTION: plh to work with systeam to make sure we keep track of hg push
16:25:28 <hendry> maciej: not great security, since hg trusts the client's config WRT who wrote the patch
16:25:42 <hendry> dbaron: you might want logs
16:26:23 <hendry> .. Mozilla have a tool called push-log for this problem
16:26:45 <hendry> jonas: i can see now the tests are seperated by directory
16:26:56 <dbaron> The source for pushlog is in this hg repository: http://hg.mozilla.org/hgcustom/pushlog/
16:26:57 <hendry> .. is there a description file ?
16:27:11 <anne> http://test.w3.org/html/tests/
16:27:37 <anne> http://test.w3.org/html/tests/harness/approvedtests.txt
16:27:49 <hendry> kk: see http://test.w3.org/html/tests/harness/approvedtests.txt
16:28:05 <hendry> kk: we will add extra info
16:28:25 <hendry> jonas: remove domain so it's not server specific
16:28:35 <hendry> .. we have a test file per dir
16:29:39 <hendry> .. i want to walk this from the cmdline
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16:29:52 <hendry> .. i want relative paths
16:30:21 <hendry> kk: we might need some absolute stuff
16:30:54 <hendry> jonas: i'm pulling via hg
16:32:23 <hendry> kk: there is no absolute need for absolute urls
16:32:38 <hendry> hsivonen: mochi-tests point to localhost
16:33:24 <hendry> jonas: something clearly identifiable for a search & replace to get the tests working
16:34:42 <hendry> .. you can get different types of relative paths
16:35:14 <hendry> .. it's important that we can accomodate them in a "search & replace"
16:35:37 <hendry> .. we need to scale
16:35:54 <hendry> .. it's not workable to ban asb paths
16:36:07 <hendry> s/asb/absolute/
16:38:14 <hendry> hsivonen: we need to document the "clearly identifiable" bit, like test.w3.org and test2.w3.org
16:38:59 <hendry> jonas: we have to say it's OK to use abs paths
16:39:41 <hendry> hsivonen: worried about some dir collision in the namespace
16:40:18 <hendry> s/collision in the namespace/namespace collision/
16:41:34 <hendry> hsivonen: get rid of prefixes
16:41:41 <hendry> jonas: OK
16:41:46 <krisk> That is fine
16:42:30 <hendry> kk: how to delimit the file ?
16:42:36 <hendry> jonas: i don't care
16:43:38 <hendry> jonas: though, since it's hand-written, was it easy & little to type
16:44:01 <hendry> s/was it/make it/
16:44:28 <hendry> sam: is there a preferred length? with CSS tests there was a wide range
16:45:03 <hendry> .. bad = long test & lots of permutations
16:45:29 <hendry> hsivonen: we know a bad test when we see it
16:45:55 <hendry> maceij: there is a fuzzy boundary
16:46:48 <hendry> jonas: io bound if we have a million tests ... we need to keep it somewhat reasonable
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16:47:18 <hendry> sam: there are examples of tests that can be merged
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16:47:42 <hendry> adrian: there is a review process
16:47:49 <hendry> kk: you could file a bug, raise issues
16:48:25 <hendry> adrian: of course if it's approved, it doesn't mean it can't change again
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16:49:03 <adrianba> Present+ adrianba
16:49:38 <hendry> sam: if all the tests pass, then the bugs are in the specs
16:50:37 <hendry> kk: tests do content negotiation (canPlayType?) WRT choosing a codec the runtime support
16:50:53 <hendry> s/support/supportS/
16:51:37 <hendry> hsivonen: mochi tests that we (mozilla) use, requires server side javascript
16:51:57 <hendry> plh: was a lot of trouble already to support PHP for security reasons
16:52:36 <hendry> sam: we have tests that use python, php, curl for certain load tests
16:52:47 <dom> (we evoked this in WebApps the other day; we can probably consider more server-side stuff at some point, but we need to need to have requirements documented earlier rather than ater)
16:53:09 <dom> (and please consider limiting the number of needed languages/platforms as much as possible)
16:54:06 <hendry> jonas: we can generalise "slow load tests" so it doesn't neccessarily require PHP
16:54:46 <hendry> .. some security concerns here
16:55:21 <hendry> plh: we need to review PHP files before they become live
16:56:21 <hendry> jonas: we need it one the same server for same origin type cases
16:56:49 <dom> if same server == test.w3.org, that's part of the plan
16:56:51 <hendry> hsivonen: we need a mechanism to load things slowly for example
16:57:13 <dom> (use a DTD for that)
16:58:26 <hendry> hsivonen: avoid echo, we should return existing (approved) files
16:59:02 <hendry> jonas: is there sensitive data WRT XSS-ing
16:59:08 <hendry> plh: should be fine
16:59:38 <anne> safest might be w3test.org or some such
17:00:40 <hendry> kk: what happens if 10 million tests are in the Q to be approved
17:01:50 <hendry> dbaron: biggest risk is a test that claims to test something, but doesn't actually test it
17:02:35 <hendry> sam: we should only accept tests that use the new harness
17:03:20 <hendry> .. the tests here are about testing regressions
17:04:11 <hendry> kk: worried about approval rate, esp. if only he does it
17:04:48 <hendry> plh: if a subset of tests are passed by everyone, they are probably good
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17:05:22 <hendry> anne: 1) is it good enough ? 2) ... [ didn't get that ]
17:05:48 <hendry> maceij: lets do a cost benefit analysis
17:05:58 <adam> Accidentally testing something that is not a requirement at all
17:06:13 <hendry> .. 1st category testing undefined behaviour
17:06:29 <hendry> .. 2nd -- testing something contrary to a requirement
17:06:41 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:06:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html dom
17:06:54 <hendry> .. -- at least one browser will fail this
17:08:00 <hendry> [ can someone write what maceij said pls ? ] 
17:08:36 <hendry> .. 3rd cat testing something where it doesn't actually test it
17:08:43 <hendry> .. review should catch them all
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17:09:03 <hendry> .. almost certain something will be wrong
17:09:18 <hendry> .. how much time should be spent on review versus benefit 
17:09:51 <hendry> .. test approved == matches what the spec says
17:11:09 <hendry> dbaron: from exp within CSS, review is more work than writing to test... so its not worth doing for an existing contributor
17:11:27 <hendry> s/writing to test/writing the test/
17:11:43 <hendry> dbaron: figure out why the test is failing sooner than later
17:12:23 <hendry> .. imp report: 1) run all tests 2) bug in test suite or in browser (v. time consuming)
17:12:34 <hendry> .. figure out WHY tests are failing
17:13:10 <hendry> hsivonen: we should flag tests that fail in all browsers
17:13:42 <hendry> hsivonen: we can't assume the spec is neccessarily 100% correct
17:14:01 <hsivonen> we should flag tests that fail in 3 engines
17:15:32 <hendry> maceij: low skilled tests don't need to be approved, better if everyone is just running them [ IIUC ]
17:16:04 <hendry> anne: we should distribute the testing
17:16:32 <hendry> maceij: don't have ref test when you could have a script test
17:17:03 <hendry> .. distributed test is more likely to succeed
17:17:50 <hendry> hsivonen: do we have any way to feed the test info to the WHATWG HTML5 section info box things
17:19:00 <hendry> kk: could be an admin problem if links change
17:20:17 <mjs> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:20:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html mjs
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17:25:16 <krisk> see http://test.w3.org/html/tests/approved/getElementsByClassName/001.htm for an example of a script based test
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17:47:16 <adrianba> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
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07:31:18 <freedom> nobody in 3B yet? there will be an EPUB related meeting right?
07:33:21 <oedipus> according to the agenda, EPUB discussion in 3B starting 8:30 french time http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2010_Agenda#Room_3B__.28IRC_.23html-wg2.29
07:34:00 <mgylling> Reads 09:00 to me
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07:34:56 <mgylling> To anybody who is physically there: does 3B have call-in facilities?
07:35:02 <oedipus> guess the first half hour will be spent in common again then breakout to 3B
07:35:33 <freedom> seems not
07:35:42 <freedom> I am in 3B physically now
07:36:49 <mgylling> freedom, thanks. 
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08:02:51 <Julian> topic: epub
08:02:56 <MichaelC> scribe: Julian
08:03:06 <Julian> ms: markus to give overview
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08:03:26 <Julian> mgylling: (remotely)
08:03:47 <mgylling> www.idpf.org
08:04:19 <Julian> mgylling: epub standard for ebooks, around for several years, expanding in popularity, large adoption
08:04:31 <Julian> ...idpf.org
08:04:52 <Julian> ...based on xhtml, subsets defined
08:05:01 <Julian> ...current ebpub 2.0
08:05:08 <Julian> ...uses XHTML1.1 mod
08:05:26 <Julian> ...is a fileset, ZIP container, different document types
08:05:38 <Julian> ...container called OCF
08:05:45 <dom> dom has left #html-wg2
08:05:47 <freedom> http://www.idpf.org/specs.htm
08:06:26 <Julian> ...some of the formats in epub defined by w3c
08:06:41 <Julian> ...some of the metadata formats owned by epub itself
08:06:49 <Julian> ...is undergoing rev to 3.0
08:07:18 <Julian> ...charter: update & alignment with modern web standard
08:07:22 <Julian> s
08:07:31 <Julian> use HTML5 as grammar
08:07:56 <Julian> is not allowed by current specs but already happening
08:08:15 <Julian> need to formalize & stabilize
08:08:38 <Julian> on HTML5 vs XHTML5: epub decided to use X*
08:09:13 <Julian> based on requirement for existing reading systems to be upgradeable
08:09:42 <Julian> MS: asks about design philosophies
08:10:43 <Julian> MS: drive spec based on what current UAs already can do?
08:11:11 <Julian> mg: docs used to be static
08:11:26 <Julian> mg: <script> SHOULD/MUST be ignored
08:11:46 <Julian> mg: but scripting is  going to be added
08:11:58 <Julian> mg: problems with legacy readers
08:12:07 <Julian> mg: and non-browser-based impls
08:12:44 <Julian> ...it's clear that this will be needed in the future
08:13:06 <Julian> MS: devices coming to market with have full browser engines
08:14:01 <Julian> q+
08:14:18 <Julian> q-
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08:15:58 <Julian> Julian: usability of spec for being referenced
08:16:03 <Julian> ?
08:16:41 <Julian> mg: not a problem yet
08:17:07 <Julian> mg: we're not forking
08:17:35 <Julian> mg: defining profiles and extensions, follow the HTML5 style
08:18:27 <Julian> Julian: how does ext work for you?
08:18:51 <Julian> mg: XHTML5 is supposed to allowed namespace-based extensibility
08:19:17 <Julian> ms: feedback on this is welcome
08:20:03 <Julian> ms: epub I18N requirements -> CSS WG -> vertical text support
08:20:42 <Julian> ms: does not seem to affect HTML though
08:20:57 <Julian> ms: is there something the HTML WG need to do?
08:21:24 <Julian> mg: books / ebooks slightly different domain
08:21:26 <MikeSmith> q?
08:21:35 <Julian> mg: missing semantics for books
08:21:53 <Julian> mg: distinguish node references and nodes
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08:22:18 <Julian> mg: skippability
08:22:41 <Julian> page breaks
08:22:45 <Julian> q+
08:23:24 <Julian> have looked at role attributes for extensibility
08:23:34 <MichaelC> q+ to discuss role extensions, future aria, etc.
08:24:04 <Julian> mjs: extending role not recommended because owned by aria
08:24:20 <Julian> mjs: needs coordination with PFWG
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08:24:40 <Julian> mjs: maybe dedicated elements
08:24:44 <Julian> or attributes
08:25:16 <Julian> what affects rendering should be in HTML
08:25:47 <Julian> q-
08:26:10 <Julian> mg: book semantics, chicago manual of style
08:27:08 <Julian> in transcript, replace "node" by "note"
08:27:26 <Julian> MC: asks about roles
08:27:41 <Julian> MG: uses custom attributes
08:27:57 <MichaelC> Role attribute extensibility: http://www.w3.org/TR/role-attribute/#extending-the-collection-of-roles
08:28:01 <Julian> MG: fastest way for now (own NS)
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08:28:30 <hsivonen> q+
08:28:31 <Julian> MC: role module *does* allow extensibility
08:28:52 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent:, make minutes
08:28:52 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand ', make minutes', MikeSmith.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:28:56 <mjs> q+
08:29:05 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:29:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html MikeSmith
08:29:33 <Julian> MC: PF and HTML need to coordinate on r@ole
08:29:36 <Julian> @role
08:29:38 <MichaelC> ack me
08:29:38 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to discuss role extensions, future aria, etc.
08:30:00 <hsivonen> q-
08:30:08 <Julian> MG: ownership of @role
08:30:13 <Julian> q+
08:30:33 <hsivonen> q+
08:30:41 <Julian> mjs: HTML defines @role by refererence to ARIA spec
08:31:13 <Julian> MC: aria defines on HTML to define @role
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08:31:35 <MichaelC> s/aria defines/aria depends/
08:31:41 <Julian> mg: request to clarify the HTML spec wrt role extensibility
08:31:51 <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
08:31:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html fantasai
08:32:06 <mjs> ack mjs
08:32:15 <mjs> ack Julian
08:33:15 <Julian> mg: on metadata in epub
08:33:30 <Julian> mg: NCX doesn't have metadata at all anymore
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08:33:50 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/host_languages#host_general_role ARIA on host language role attribute
08:34:03 <Julian> mg: core metadata  will continue to come from outside HTML/head
08:34:19 <mjs> -> role attribute in HTML5: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products-aria
08:34:20 <Julian> mg: reading systems need to get the metadata from the package file
08:34:39 <mjs> ack hsivonen
08:34:57 <Julian> HS: on role attribute
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08:36:16 <fantasai> hsivonen: ARIA spec defines aria- attributes, but does not define role attributes
08:36:30 <fantasai> hsivonen: requires that a host language define a role attribute with certain characteristics
08:36:39 <fantasai> hsivonen: HTML5 tries to do this
08:36:46 <fantasai> hsivonen says something about tricky wordsmithing
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08:37:24 <fantasai> hsivonen: Way forward would be to figure out roles that current AT vendors need (?) and define tokens for them, and have ARIA promise not to conflict
08:37:39 <anne> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:37:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html anne
08:37:43 <fantasai> hsivonen: The role module spec relies on CURIEs for extensibility
08:37:44 <MichaelC> q+ to say if you want to follow the approach Henri suggests, should coordinate with PFWG sooner than later
08:37:49 <fantasai> hsivonen: ... not good for EPUB
08:38:05 <MichaelC> q+ to say ARIA roles are part of a taxonomy
08:38:18 <fantasai> hsivonen: I don't expect web engines to support CURIEs, relies on namespace stuff ... lookup DOM L3
08:38:33 <fantasai> hsivonen: Best way forward is to ask PF to set aside the names that you expect to use
08:38:47 <fantasai> hsivonen: Doesn't make sense to pretend different groups dont' know about each other
08:38:56 <fantasai> hsivonen: We're communicating, so let's coordinate.
08:39:14 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/rdf_model.png ARIA taxonomy
08:39:17 <fantasai> ?: I'm ok with approach Henri is suggesting, but coordination with PF is important sooner rather than later
08:39:32 <fantasai> MichaelC: Everything would have to fit into our taxonomy
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08:39:45 <fantasai> hsivonen: Implementations don't care about the taxonomy, that's only to help out with spec design
08:40:28 <mjs> q+q+
08:40:32 <fantasai> hsivonen: If PF promises that this set of names is not going to be used, and picks different names if it decides to expand in that area, then we don't have to worry about all this extensibility stuff
08:40:32 <mjs> q+
08:40:34 <mjs> q+q-
08:40:41 <mjs> ack q+
08:40:43 <mjs> ack q-
08:40:59 <fantasai> MichaelC: For author understanding, we want to pick tokens that match the most appropriate terminology
08:41:10 <mjs> ack MichaelC
08:41:10 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say if you want to follow the approach Henri suggests, should coordinate with PFWG sooner than later and to say ARIA roles are part of a taxonomy
08:41:13 <fantasai> hsivonen: They're just tokens, it doesn't really matter
08:41:22 <mjs> ack mjs
08:41:24 <Julian> q+
08:41:41 <fantasai> mjs: Instead of debating in the abstract, let's just send the list of suggested roles to PF asap
08:41:42 <Julian> q+ to let Mike speak
08:41:55 <hsivonen> DOM 3 namespace lookup doesn't work for CURIEs in text/html DOMs, so don't expect browsers to implement CURIEs
08:41:55 <fantasai> mjs: If they don't like the tokens proposed, then they can respond about that.
08:42:02 <fantasai> mjs: I don't think this meta-conversation is getting us anywhere
08:42:09 <hsivonen> q+
08:42:15 <mjs> ack Julian
08:42:15 <Zakim> Julian, you wanted to let Mike speak
08:42:16 <fantasai> hsivonen: I'd like to add a note about why CURIEs are bad idea in this space
08:42:33 <mjs> ack hsivonen
08:42:57 <fantasai> hsivonen: So, frex, how Gecko exposes roles to interface to JAWS, Gecko picks the first role it recognizes and exposes that as the MSAA role
08:43:29 <hsivonen> IAccessible2
08:43:30 <fantasai> hsivonen: And then exposes the entire value of the role attribute as the xml-roles property in the iAccessible2 interface
08:43:51 <fantasai> hsivonen: It follows that the namespace mapping context of the CURIE binding context is not exposed at all
08:44:00 <MichaelC> scribe: fantasai
08:44:01 <fantasai> hsivonen: If you wanted to do something with CURIE, you wouldn't do CURIE processing.
08:44:17 <fantasai> hsivonen: You would wind up exposing to JAWS the prefix and local name
08:44:24 <freedom> IAccessible2, http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/accessibility/iaccessible2
08:44:26 <Julian> q+
08:44:41 <Julian> q-
08:44:50 <fantasai> hsivonen: Therefore I advise against relying on the mapping context, because the existing ... doesn't expose the mapping to IAccessible2 and therefore to JAWS
08:45:12 <fantasai> markus: Does Gecko expose the roles regardless of whether it recognizes it?
08:45:37 <fantasai> hsivonen: Yes. All the data is passed through, in case JAWS wants to violate ARIA and look at things itself.
08:45:46 <fantasai> hsivonen: Gecko doesn't police whether JAWS follows ARIA spec
08:46:05 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I just wanted to state where things stand.
08:46:27 <fantasai> MikeSmith: It's not inconceivalbe that the language features you need for EPUB could be considered as native elements and attriutes to be added to HTML5 itself. It's not too late for that.
08:46:35 <fantasai> MikeSmith: It's not too late to ask, anyway.
08:46:45 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I'm sure we're going to get LC comments asking for new elements and attributes.
08:46:47 <mjs> q+
08:47:04 <fantasai> MikeSmith: There will be a lot of people who haven't looked at the spec yet, or want opportunity to have their request considered.
08:47:18 <fantasai> MikeSmith: Proper way to change the spec is file a bug against the spec.
08:47:37 <fantasai> MikeSmith: Cutoff for pre-LC was Oct1. Everything after that date will be considered an LC comment.
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08:48:00 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I don't think that you should self-censor, and just assume there's no chance of getting any new language feature requests for native elements and attriutes considered.
08:48:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html kennyluck
08:48:03 <fantasai> MikeSmith: That's not what we want
08:48:14 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I don't want to say you have nothing to lose, because there's cost in time to everyone 
08:48:38 <fantasai> MikeSmith: But something for EPUB to consider, whether you want to make requests for new elements/attributes.
08:48:48 <hsivonen> Gecko exposes the value of the role attribute to JAWS but not any kind of CURIE prefix mapping context, which mean using CURIEs wouldn't really work with the URL and you'd end up hard-coding a known prefix and the resolution to an absolute URI would be fiction
08:48:53 <fantasai> MikeSmith: Not mutually exclusive: could also pursue extensible approach, too
08:48:55 <Julian> q+
08:48:59 <hsivonen> thus bad idea to use CURIEs
08:49:09 <fantasai> MikeSmith: It's a good idea, although some things we need are likely to be considered out-of-scope for HTML5
08:49:33 <Julian> q-
08:49:33 <fantasai> Markus says something about e.g. notes
08:49:43 <mjs> ack mjs
08:49:44 <fantasai> fantasai asks if that wouldn't be <aside>
08:50:07 <fantasai> mjs: Just want to reinforce Mike's comment that we would definitely like to hear all the requests, even though we are late in the game and probably aren't going to add major new feature.
08:50:21 <fantasai> mjs: But requests that are modest in scope and important for a particular use case will be considered
08:50:36 <fantasai> mjs: We're not 100% frozen yet, but in a few months we will be. So better to get those requests in now rather than later.
08:50:57 <fantasai> mjs: Any other comments?
08:51:23 <fantasai> fantasai: Wouldn't notes be an <aside>?
08:51:36 <fantasai> Markus: Notes would be a subclass of <aside>
08:52:08 <fantasai> Markus says something about an href role
08:52:33 <fantasai> mjs: Talking about footnotes and end notes?
08:52:42 <fantasai> Markus: Yes. Need to distinguish those for formatting
08:52:56 <fantasai> MikeSmith: Don't we have a bug open on having more roles for <a>?
08:53:33 <fantasai> mjs: If particular semantic of linking to footnote or endnote might be more appropriate as a rel value
08:54:00 <fantasai> hsivonen: Maybe have a CSS pseudo-class detecting the note type from what the <a> points to instead of requiring author to specify
08:54:28 <fantasai> Markus: Reponse from EPUB authors say that overall, it's really good. There are a number of additions from XHML1 that we love.
08:54:54 <fantasai> Markus: We're already very close to having it work for books, only a few minor concerns.
08:55:04 <fantasai> Markus: So not looking for any major surgery here.
08:55:34 <mjs> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:55:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html mjs
08:55:42 <fantasai> fantasai: I think they should define a microformat for subclassing notes.
08:55:56 <fantasai> hsivonen: Håkon and Bert already defined a microformat for books, although I don't think they addressed notes.
08:56:12 <fantasai> Bert: yes. A lot of that has been added to HTML5, though: <article>, <section>, etc.
08:56:45 <fantasai> mjs: HTML5 just recommends a plain <a>, with no distinguishing markup
08:56:57 <fantasai> hsivonen: footnotes are a thorny issue in CSS. Prince supports something, but it's not optimal
08:57:15 <fantasai> hsivonen: I was reading Dante's Inferno in HTML5. It doesn't make any sense to read it without footnotes.
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08:57:44 <fantasai> mjs: Yeah, I read a Terry Pratchett book that was supposed to have footnotes, but they were all endnotes and it didn't work so well
08:58:17 <Bert> -> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/boom Boom! (BOOk Microformat)
08:58:18 <fantasai> hsivonen: I think we should figure out the CSS layout model first, then fit the markup to that.
08:58:45 <fantasai> hsivonen: If we come up with markup first, and it doesn't fit the CSS layout model, making it work in layout could become very complicated, involving many pseudo-classes, etc.
09:00:25 <fantasai> meeting closed?
09:01:00 <Bert> (Contrary to what I remembered, BOOM *does* have footnotes, not just sidenotes: <span class=footnote>)
09:01:49 <fantasai> discussion of role attributes
09:02:27 <fantasai> mjs: You need centralized extensibility for accessibility, so the a11y technology understands the roles
09:03:03 <fantasai> hsivonen: If you're on Windows, what FF can do is more than with the AS api on Mac
09:03:04 <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/w/list
09:03:22 <fantasai> hsivonen: So maybe it's a bad idea to design stuff with the assumption that you have IAccessibible2 on Windows
09:03:38 <fantasai> hsivonen: Alternatively, could consider it a bug that AS doesn't have this feature
09:03:47 <hsivonen> s/AS/AX/
09:03:56 <fantasai> anne: The only case you'd notice it is JAWS was updated before voiceover
09:04:08 <fantasai> hsivonen: I'm guessing the upgrade rate of JAWS is a non-issue in practice
09:04:11 <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/Annotations
09:04:23 <fantasai> Julian: You might not believe how backwards some people are in upgrading their browser
09:05:01 <fantasai> hsivonen: Big parts of ARIA have been designed with the assumption of an enterprise stuck with IE7 for years after ARIA has been deployed in JAWS
09:05:12 <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/DesignPrinciples
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09:05:49 <fantasai> hsivonen: Design decisions make assumptions about which part of the system will be upgraded first. Might not have been the best design decisions.
09:06:23 <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/HTML5Subsetting
09:07:32 <fantasai> fantasai: So is EPUB subsetting HTML5?
09:07:36 <fantasai> MikeSmith: not sure
09:07:46 <fantasai> mjs: Engines are unlikely to enforce any subsetting
09:08:27 <fantasai> fantasai: True, but such content could be non-conformant for EPUB 3. 
09:08:51 <fantasai> fantasai: Not all EPUB implementations are based on browser engines
09:08:57 <fantasai> ?: Are there many that are not?
09:09:02 <fantasai> fantasai: I know of at least two
09:09:10 <fantasai> fantasai: and I haven't actually looked into the issue
09:09:57 <hsivonen> s/?/hsivonen/
09:11:08 <kennyluck> fantasai: When I was at Tokyo, I found a EPUB implementation that implements CSS but not based on browser
09:11:26 <kennyluck> .. I also found one EPUB implementation that's not based on browser at all
09:11:40 <kennyluck> ... yet it renders vertical text quite nicely
09:11:49 <kennyluck> ... (It does not support CSS)
09:12:12 <fantasai> ... uses effectively  a UA stylesheet only
09:12:27 <fantasai> hsivonen: Are the CSS implementatiosn any good/
09:12:31 <fantasai> fantasai: Don't know, haven't done any testing
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09:15:04 <fantasai> discussion of converting HTML5 to EPUB
09:15:22 <fantasai> would need to split into multiple files for EPUB impl's tiny brains :)
09:15:56 <mgylling> Yes, splitting files is done a lot due to memory constraints in certain handhelds
09:16:13 <mgylling> A popular one has a 300k limit IIRC
09:18:19 <MikeSmith> 12 minutes to caffeine
09:19:02 <freedom> which means EPUB doesn't encourage authors to write long chapters?
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09:19:22 <mgylling> hehe, yes, need to keep it short ;)
09:20:00 <mgylling> I expect these max file size recommendations to be gone soon, just another generation shift needed in devices
09:20:48 <freedom> mg: do it, my iPhone 4 has 512MB now
09:21:22 <mgylling> freedom, right. Note that this is not spec restrictions; these are conventions that has arisen in the ecosystem
09:22:29 <freedom> OK, bad implementation, not bad spec 
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09:24:19 <Julian> rrsagent, make minutes
09:24:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html Julian
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10:14:36 <Julian> topic: link relations
10:14:51 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
10:15:40 <MikeSmith> q?
10:15:40 <fantasai> mjs: Subtopics include
10:15:48 <fantasai> mjs: Idea of using microformats
10:15:57 <fantasai> mjs: another is that we have a number of specific issues
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10:16:18 <mjs> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/124
10:16:37 <mjs> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/127
10:16:38 <MikeSmith> q+ to show XPointer registry
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10:17:14 <MikeSmith> q+ to discuss potential need for a role registry similar to need for a rel registry 
10:17:18 <mjs> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/118
10:17:29 <mjs> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/119
10:17:33 <fantasai> mjs summarizes the open issues
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10:18:07 <fantasai> mjs: Does anyone else have other subtopics?
10:18:12 <adam> *u must be dozing off*
10:18:41 <anne> no kidding
10:19:28 <mjs> ack MikeSmith 
10:19:28 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to show XPointer registry and to discuss potential need for a role registry similar to need for a rel registry
10:19:53 <fantasai> MikeSmith: Somehow I ended up the one responsible for registering all link relations for HTML5
10:20:03 <fantasai> MikeSmith: So, I guess I can put some kind of report on that? What should I be doing.
10:20:14 <fantasai> Julian: Let's start with a description of .. right now
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10:20:29 <fantasai> Julian: I'll summarize where IETF is right now.
10:20:47 <fantasai> Julian: It all started with realization that HTTP has a Link header that's supposed to be equivalent to Link element in HTML
10:21:05 <fantasai> Julian: And that there are documents on the web which are not HTML and for which it would be useful to expose linking
10:21:16 <fantasai> Julian: Lots of people think it would be a good way of expressing link semantics independently of HTML
10:21:30 <fantasai> Julian: So Mark Nottingham started on the work of writing a new def of Link in HTTP
10:21:51 <fantasai> Julian: And establishing a registry that could be used in HTML as well, but would not necessarily be used in HTML
10:22:20 <fantasai> Julian: The IANA registry also includes the link relations registry that was established for the Atom feed format, which is similar but not identical to HTML.
10:22:33 <fantasai> Julian: So there are overlapps, but it included syndication-related things and not everything that HTML has
10:22:48 <fantasai> Julian: So there was lots of discussion on procedural things, and licensing of the registry. 
10:22:51 <fantasai> Julian: Can talk about that later.
10:22:58 <fantasai> Julian: Took a long time for spec to come out, but has finally been published.
10:23:03 <Julian> http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc5988.html
10:23:05 <mjs> q+
10:23:31 <fantasai> Julian: That's a very old style: you send an email to an IETF list, and a group of designated experts to register that or ask questions.
10:23:45 <Julian> http://paramsr.us/link-relation-types/
10:24:06 <fantasai> Julian: Mark has started making this more modern by, first of all, providing a web page explaining how to register, has a template to help with you write the registration and submit for you to the mailing list
10:24:10 <Julian> http://paramsr.us/tracker/
10:24:16 <fantasai> Julian: The designated experts now also has an issue tracker
10:24:26 <fantasai> Julian: So people can watch where there registration requests are progressing
10:24:31 <fantasai> Julian: Makes the IANA process a bit more pleasant
10:24:39 <Julian> http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml
10:24:44 <fantasai> Julian: Here's the registry riht now
10:25:00 <hsivonen> q+
10:25:01 <fantasai> Julian: This contains link relations defined in Atom, Atom extensions, and HTML4
10:25:06 <fantasai> Julian: and some parts for HTML5
10:25:30 <Julian> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/link-relations
10:25:33 <MikeSmith> q?
10:25:41 <fantasai> hsivonen: ? has been recognized as an entity that has reasonable ? measures in place
10:25:48 <mjs> s/?/permanence/
10:25:48 <fantasai> hsivonen: It seems that the domain name is owned by ???
10:25:52 <fantasai> hsivonen: as an individual
10:26:01 <MikeSmith> s/?/microformats.org/
10:26:02 <fantasai> hsivonen: And whatwg.org is also owned by an individual
10:26:33 <fantasai> Julian: I'm not sure how that affects our impression of whether microformats.org is stable or not
10:26:43 <MikeSmith> s/???/Rohit Khare/
10:27:03 <Julian> q+
10:27:04 <fantasai> mjs: My biggest disappointment about the RFC is that it doesn't have provisions for individual registrations
10:27:31 <fantasai> mjs: It would be useful to have a central repository where all of these can be listed so people know what's in use, even if it doesn't have a formal spec
10:27:40 <fantasai> mjs: I think Mark should make a provisional registry.
10:27:51 <fantasai> mjs: Mark said the registry would be so lightweight it wouldn't be necessary
10:28:02 <fantasai> mjs: But that has not proven to be true.
10:28:23 <hsivonen> moreover, even proven to be false
10:28:32 <fantasai> Julian: We have provisional registries in other IANA things, and nobody's used them.
10:28:48 <MikeSmith> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/link-relations/current/threads.html
10:28:57 <fantasai> mjs: I think if you find something that's almost never used, then creating something that has higher barrier to entry, then creating something with a higher barrier to entry isn't going to increase use
10:29:11 <hsivonen> q+
10:29:13 <fantasai> Julian: People don't use provisional registries because they don't care enough.
10:29:17 <Julian> q-
10:29:27 <fantasai> mjs: microformats.org list has even lower barrier to entry, and it is used
10:29:30 <mjs> ack mjs
10:29:46 <fantasai> Julian: One difference between IANA registry and wiki page is that wiki is completely HTML focused
10:30:11 <fantasai> Julian: So they don't consider relations among other formats other than HTML 
10:30:23 <fantasai> Julian: They don't think about use on PDF or video
10:30:52 <fantasai> mjs: Most people invent link relations for HTML. I don't think it makes sense to force them to address these abstract link uses that may or may not be practical.
10:31:04 <mjs> ack hsivonen 
10:31:08 <MikeSmith> q?
10:31:12 <fantasai> mjs: It makes more sense to me to provisionally register the link relations, and then encourage them to think about generalizing to other formats.
10:31:12 <MikeSmith> q+
10:31:38 <fantasai> hsivonen: It might be not about people not caring, but about provisional registration being dysfunctional
10:32:03 <fantasai> hsivonen: I also agree with mjs that in some cases people don't care about nonHTML use cases. In that case we should just do HTML.
10:32:44 <fantasai> Julian: we talked about ... provisional registry [that hsivonen mentioned] yesterday, and I totally agree this problem needs to be investigated.
10:32:52 <fantasai> Julian: I think we try.
10:33:06 <fantasai> Julian: I think we should try to encourage people to think of link relations applied to non-HTML content
10:33:35 <fantasai> mjs: I think encouragement is fine. But if encouragement fails, what happens? Should the link relation then be undocumented because encouragement was unsuccessful?
10:34:03 <fantasai> Julian: ... nobody's mailed a link relation and asked designated experts to help make the link relation more generic
10:34:35 <fantasai> mjs: You've raised the barrier by tring to make it generic, the person doesn't care about making it generic, so it ends up being unregistered
10:34:52 <fantasai> anne: You don't need that to get it in the registry, but to get it endorsed
10:35:47 <fantasai> hsivonen relates hixie's experience with trying to register a link relation
10:35:59 <fantasai> hsivonen: If what hixie wrote wasn't enough, then I think we have a problem.
10:36:33 <fantasai> Julian: My point of view was that he didn't seriously try. He wanted to prove it didn't work.
10:36:40 <fantasai> Julian: I don't think it will be productive to continue on this path.
10:37:07 <fantasai> mjs: When I looked at the original templates hixie submitted and compared them to what the RFC said, I couldn't see any mechanical procedure that determined they failed to qualify
10:37:20 <fantasai> mjs: So it seems anyone trying to register would require multiple email go-around
10:37:35 <fantasai> mjs: Same problems result in failure to register MIME types and URL schemes
10:37:50 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I have been going through the process of making requests using the mandated procedures
10:37:54 <MikeSmith> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/link-relations/current/threads.html
10:38:03 <fantasai> MikeSmith: You can see there the discussions about the registry
10:38:15 <fantasai> MikeSmith: It does take multiple go-arounds in email for these.
10:38:28 <fantasai> MikeSmith: One is for some of the link relation names or types, they are already being used in other contexts
10:38:33 <fantasai> MikeSmith: One of those was 'search'.
10:38:41 <fantasai> MikeSmith: If you look at that, it was specified somewhere else.
10:38:57 <fantasai> MikeSmith: Regardless of how you do this, there has to be some discussion about what this description should say
10:39:09 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I don't see any way to get around that, if you have multiple ppl want to define the same thing.
10:39:17 <fantasai> MikeSmith: Other issues were with how it's defined in the spec itself.
10:39:39 <Julian> q+ to note that I'm one of the DEs
10:39:40 <fantasai> MikeSmith: 'up' is one of those. Had to go back to WG and get a resolution for it
10:40:04 <fantasai> MikeSmith: .. Maciej... having to change the description of the link relation so that it's more generic, and less about HTML
10:40:09 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I'm not thrilled with that.
10:40:17 <fantasai> MikeSmith: Don't really care about doing that at this point in the procedure.
10:40:29 <hsivonen> (one of the top Google hits for the metaphor is from one of our co-chairs: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2005/05/11/Fetch-Me-A-Rock )
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10:40:37 <mjs> q+ to ask MikeSmith about the situation with rel=search
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10:40:40 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I think many ppl are not going to be thrilled about changing what they think is a perfectly reasonable discription of their use case to handle some speculative use cases
10:40:48 <fantasai> MikeSmith: That's alwasy going to be a troublesome thing for someone to do
10:40:52 <fantasai> s/disc/desc/
10:40:52 <mjs> ack MikeSmith
10:41:20 <fantasai> MikeSmith: In the spirit of going through the procedure and taking it to the end to see if it ends up being something it works or not
10:41:30 <fantasai> MikeSmith: But I do think we have to keep open the possibility that we decide that it doesn't work.
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10:41:46 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I don't think it's a given that just because it's an RFC and the registry exists, that we've commited to this is how we do it.
10:42:05 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2005/04/xpointer-schemes/
10:42:06 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I think it's still a possibility that this isn't working the way we would like it to work, let's try something else.
10:42:14 <fantasai> MikeSmith: There is something else, plh asked me to point out.
10:42:18 <fantasai> MikeSmith: Is the xpointer registry.
10:42:22 <anne> +1 to W3C doing web registires
10:42:28 <fantasai> MikeSmith: This is another way of registering something that is similar
10:42:32 <anne> s/registires/registries/
10:43:26 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I think the biggest ... difference between things that have been successfully regsitered
10:43:34 <fantasai> MikeSmith: and those that are still being reviewed
10:43:41 <fantasai> MikeSmith: i.e. provisionally registered
10:44:18 <Julian> q+
10:44:20 <fantasai> MikeSmith: All you need to do to request a provisional registration, you just start by typing in a name of some kind
10:44:58 <fantasai> it gives you a form asking for a description, and optionally a spec URL
10:45:09 <fantasai> MikeSmith: This is a middle ground between a wiki page
10:45:12 <fantasai> and
10:45:17 <hsivonen> This looks good to me
10:45:24 <fantasai> MikeSmith: At least it's got a form-driven interface
10:45:30 <fantasai> MikeSmith: I think this is a good middle ground
10:45:51 <fantasai> MikeSmith: If the IANA registry provided a way of doing this, I think that would be something we could agree on
10:45:59 <fantasai> Julian: IANA registry has something very similar
10:46:17 <fantasai> Julian: The only thing is that instead of being automatically registered, it gets sent to the email list
10:46:31 <fantasai> Julian: If we made a provisional registration out of the sumission, that would be the same.
10:46:46 <Julian> http://paramsr.us/tracker/
10:46:48 <mjs> q-
10:46:50 <anne> The requirements for XPointer are first-come-first-serve
10:47:00 <fantasai> Julian: and then someone on the mailing list to the tracker page
10:47:03 <anne> This is not at all the case for the link registry
10:47:11 <anne> well, the one the IETF/IANA uses
10:47:20 <fantasai> hsivonen: How do you know the tracker issue is filed and where that is?
10:47:23 <fantasai> Julian: You don't
10:47:39 <fantasai> ?: Why can't you do a web-based form?
10:47:53 <fantasai> Julian: Can't do that in IANA. IANA doesn't have web-based forms. Lives in last century.
10:47:59 <MikeSmith> q?
10:48:01 <fantasai> Julian: The form that posts to email is a compromise.
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10:48:15 <fantasai> hsivonen: So why does HTMLWG/W3C want to deal with an organization that lives in the last century
10:48:17 <weinig> s/?:/Sam
10:48:23 <fantasai> hsivonen: Instead of using xpointer registry code?
10:48:42 <fantasai> Julian: It depends on whether you think the link relations should be synced with other formats or not
10:48:59 <fantasai> sicking: Why couldn't you let W3C do the syncing to IANA?
10:49:07 <fantasai> MikeSmith: Before ? pointed out xpointer, I didn't know we did registries
10:49:28 <fantasai> mjs: Sounds like building a registry along the lines of xpointer would be a great idea
10:49:28 <MikeSmith> s/?/PLH/
10:49:34 <fantasai> mjs: Any volunteers to do that?
10:49:48 <fantasai> mjs: write it up as a Change Proposal?
10:50:06 <fantasai> mjs: It's a little past deadline, but since we have new info on the W3C registry option, would be a good thing to do
10:50:15 <fantasai> MikeSmith: Guess I should talk to plh about this.
10:50:32 <fantasai> hsivonen volunteers
10:50:39 <MikeSmith> q?
10:50:52 <Julian> q-
10:50:58 <fantasai> MikeSmith: plh asked me to point out the open issue about Role
10:51:11 <fantasai> MikeSmith: We talked about it this morning. Similar potential need to have a role registry
10:51:22 <fantasai> MikeSmith: plh isn't sure xpointer way is the right way to go, but wanted us to be aware that it exists
10:51:36 <fantasai> anne: I think we should do role more centralized, because it affects implementations directly.
10:51:36 <MikeSmith> q+ Julian
10:52:09 <fantasai> hsivonen: In last meeting I asked EPUB to ask PF to set aside some tokens for them once getting commitments from AT vendors that they will support these roles
10:52:20 <Julian> q-
10:52:20 <fantasai> mjs: Other things in HTML5 might benefit from this
10:52:25 <fantasai> mjs: e.g. <meta> names
10:52:56 <fantasai> mjs: There was a third thing
10:53:01 <fantasai> Julian: canvas context?
10:53:13 <fantasai> mjs: Seems more like role, in that it has implementation implications and should therefore be centralized
10:53:34 <fantasai> hsivonen: Yes. for role, e.g. you need coordination among AT vendors and browsers etc.
10:53:45 <fantasai> hsivonen: Not good to have a registry. Rare to make a new role.
10:53:57 <fantasai> hsivonen: PF should be able to set that aside without a formal process.
10:54:11 <fantasai> anne: Other one is meta http-equiv, which has a different namespace than meta name
10:54:28 <fantasai> anne: And canvas context, you do sorta need a place that says which are the contexts and which are compatible with which.
10:54:40 <fantasai> anne: Currently all are incompatbile, so not an issue now, but might change.
10:55:02 <fantasai> hsivonen: New canvas context is even rare
10:55:02 <fantasai> r
10:55:19 <fantasai> ?: Still need a list of them
10:55:26 <fantasai> ??: No, could just be defined by the specs that define them
10:55:37 <fantasai> hsivonen: I don't see this as being a problem right now.
10:55:45 <kennyluck> s/??/mjs/
10:55:50 <fantasai> hsivonen: There are three canvas contexts in the world, and one is proprietary
10:55:58 <fantasai> anne: we're removing them, 'cuz features have been added to 2d
10:56:09 <fantasai> anne: Might want a variant of WebGL that is compatible with 2D
10:56:14 <fantasai> anne: But still it's very limited
10:56:31 <fantasai> mjs: There's probably only a single-digit number of these, and should all go through HTMLWG anyways
10:56:46 <Julian> q+
10:57:45 <fantasai> fantasai: For link relations, seems like the idea is to have a provisional xpointer registry
10:58:04 <fantasai> fantasai: What about if someone wants to port a provisionally registered link rel to IANA, for more general use?
10:58:30 <fantasai> discussion
10:58:46 <fantasai> hsivonen: Dont't think we want to hijack Atom registrations
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10:59:56 <Julian> q-
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10:59:59 <fantasai> Julian: If we decide not to go with IANA registry, need to decide whether we want to continue with registration of HTML5 link relations in IANA
11:00:01 <sicking> q+
11:00:19 <fantasai> mjs: I think registering HTML5 link rels in IANA is unrelated to progress of HTML5
11:00:48 <fantasai> mjs: It's not a requirement for us. It just makes the IANA registry more complete.
11:01:56 <fantasai> mjs expresses that he doesn't care whether MikeSmith finishes the registration since it's not required for HTML5
11:02:06 <fantasai> MikeSmith: It's not a lot of work, think it makes sense to finish offf.
11:02:44 <fantasai> mjs: what about the ones where the designated experts require changes to the definitions
11:02:49 <fantasai> MikeSmith: filed issues on that
11:03:02 <fantasai> mjs: For us, the importance of a registry is as an extension point.
11:03:33 <fantasai> sicking: Seems to me that the best caretakers of the link registry so far has been the microformats people
11:03:44 <fantasai> sicking: So I want whatever solution we choose here to work for them.
11:04:32 <sicking> ack sicking
11:04:32 <fantasai> mjs: Idea of using page on microformats wiki was proposed, but nobody's written up a change proposal for that either.
11:04:40 <fantasai> mjs: Anyone want to volunteer to write that up?
11:04:49 <fantasai> sicking: Ok, I'll do it.
11:04:58 <fantasai> mjs: So post to the mailing list and say how long it will take you?
11:05:33 <fantasai> mjs: I think we should make an exception here, because we have new information that will help us make a better decision
11:05:48 <fantasai> Julian: Microformats.org is not a new idea
11:06:02 <fantasai> sicking: New information is our experience with IANA
11:06:30 <fantasai> Julian: Half have gone through. A number are held on bugs being fixed in HTML
11:07:06 <fantasai> Julian: Then we have to review the updated spec.
11:07:12 <fantasai> mjs: If the spec isn't updated, what happense?
11:07:35 <fantasai> Julian: We'd probably accept the registration anyway.
11:07:43 <fantasai> mjs: So why is the registration being held up?
11:08:29 <fantasai> Julian: If the description is updated at HTMl5, then the IANA registration would have to be updated multiple times.
11:08:48 <fantasai> hsivonen: Why is updating IANA registry multiple times a problem?
11:09:58 <fantasai> Julian: I don't think it makes a big difference either way
11:10:56 <fantasai> fantasai: Then I suggest you ask the IANA registers to finish the registration for any link relations that will be registered with the current text, and then update the registry when the problems they've pointed out have been addressed with updated text.
11:11:09 <fantasai> ACTION Julian: Ask the IANA designated experts if this would be an acceptable model
11:11:53 <Julian> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/127
11:12:00 <fantasai> ISSUE-127
11:12:52 <fantasai> Julian: ... Means in theory the semantic of the link relation can change depending on whether it's on <link> or <a>
11:12:58 <MikeSmith> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg
11:13:03 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #html-wg2
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11:13:03 <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
11:13:22 <MikeSmith> issue-127
11:13:24 <MikeSmith> issue-127?
11:13:24 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
11:13:38 <fantasai> Julian: I think the link relation should be defined the same for both, and the usage affect details like scope
11:13:58 <fantasai> Julian: I think the section should be revised to not imply that rel values on <link> and <a> could be substantially different
11:14:31 <fantasai> Julian: The IANA registry has an extension point so that each registration can have multiple columns
11:14:40 <MikeSmith> issue-127?
11:14:40 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
11:14:45 <kennyluck> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg
11:14:45 <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg...
11:14:47 <fantasai> Julian: That was requested by Ian
11:14:55 <MikeSmith> issue-127?
11:14:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-127 -- Simplify characterization of link types -- raised
11:14:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/127
11:15:05 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:15:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:15:23 <fantasai> Julian: E.g. to have a column that says whether the linked resource is required to be loaded, or just informational relation
11:15:30 <MikeSmith> ACTION Julian: Ask the IANA designated experts if this would be an acceptable model
11:15:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-196 - Ask the IANA designated experts if this would be an acceptable model [on Julian Reschke - due 2010-11-12].
11:15:47 <fantasai> mjs: It seems that in practice the spec does what's requested, so it's more an editorial issue
11:15:58 <fantasai> Julian: This distinction applies both to the spec and also to the registry
11:16:12 <fantasai> Julian: I don't think having the distinction in the registry is a good idea.
11:16:31 <fantasai> Julian: We don't seem to have any good cases for that.
11:17:09 <fantasai> Julian: The observation is, we currently have a table in the spec that has columns for effect on <link> and effect on <a> and <area>
11:17:19 <fantasai> Julian: In this table, both are exactly the same
11:17:37 <fantasai> Julian: except for two values, which in one column it's listed they're not allowed
11:18:07 <fantasai> Julian: And in these case there are bugs on whether that distinction is a good idea.
11:18:12 <kennyluck> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#linkTypes
11:18:16 <fantasai> fantasai: Setting stylesheet on <a> doesn't make sense to me
11:18:39 <fantasai> mjs: 'stylesheet' and 'icon' would have no effect outside <a>, even if we add them
11:18:52 <fantasai> Julian: ...
11:19:25 <fantasai> Julian: We'll have to make a decision on that no matter where we put the registry. Defining things such that it's possible for relations to have a different deifnition on different elements is a bad idea.
11:19:29 <fantasai> mjs: ok
11:19:29 <kennyluck> s/<a>/<link>/
11:19:34 <Julian> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/119
11:19:44 <fantasai> Julian: This is about the 'up' relation. 
11:20:15 <fantasai> Julian: Someone thought it would be nice to change the definition to allow repetition of 'up'
11:20:28 <fantasai> Julian: to e.g. have 'up up' mean grandparent
11:20:48 <fantasai> mjs: That wouldn't work very well given the DOM api for rel, which lists unique tokens
11:21:21 <fantasai> fwiw, I agree this seems like an ill-fitted idea...
11:22:09 <Julian> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/118
11:22:44 <anne> HTML5 says something different from HTML4?
11:23:52 <Julian> this is about navigational link relations that changed in HTML5, potentially changing existing content
11:24:13 <fantasai> hsivonen: fwiw, I think we should get rid of the up up up thing.
11:24:28 <fantasai> hsivonen: It won't be supported in UI very well anyway
11:24:38 <fantasai> Julian: The use case given was to build a navigation tree in the UA
11:24:48 <fantasai> Julian: But I think there are better ways to address that use case
11:25:12 <fantasai> hsivonen: When a browser user experience team wants to implement something, and asks for syntax for it, then we should conside rit.
11:25:21 <fantasai> hsivonen: but at this point it just seems a theoretical idea
11:25:34 <fantasai> hsivonen: So I would propose to just drop it
11:26:08 <fantasai> Julian: I'd like to ask the chairs to bundle the timing for these issues so they don't get too spread out
11:26:40 <fantasai> mjs: Could put them all together
11:26:51 <fantasai> mjs: have been staggering them so you don't have to write proposals all at once
11:28:53 <fantasai> http://fantasai.tripod.com/qref/Appendix/LinkTypes/ltdef.html
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11:30:16 <fantasai> meeting closed
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11:30:56 <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
11:30:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html fantasai
11:31:03 <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
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13:03:36 <anne> Topic: Testing 2
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13:03:55 <anne> scribe: anne
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13:04:18 <anne> MJS: Lets make a testcase in this session and submit it
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13:04:31 <anne> MJS: in the later half of this session
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13:05:25 <anne> JS: I am willing to coming up with a format for tests
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13:05:30 <anne> JS: and write a harness
13:05:40 <mjs> ACTION: sicking to design a file format for describing tests, and to write a harness that will run the automated tests
13:05:40 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - sicking
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13:05:54 <mjs> ACTION: Sicking to design a file format for describing tests, and to write a harness that will run the automated tests
13:05:54 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Sicking
13:06:00 <anne> trackbot, this is HTML WG
13:06:00 <trackbot> Sorry, anne, I don't understand 'trackbot, this is HTML WG'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
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13:06:51 <dbaron> trackbot, status
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13:07:05 <anne> KK: I can update the wiki
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13:07:16 <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg...
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13:07:23 <anne> ACTION: kris to update the wiki
13:07:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-199 - Update the wiki [on Kris Krueger - due 2010-11-12].
13:07:43 <anne> ACTION: Sicking to design a file format for describing tests, and to write a harness that will run the automated tests
13:07:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Sicking
13:07:49 <anne> ACTION: jonas to design a file format for describing tests, and to write a harness that will run the automated tests
13:07:49 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jonas
13:07:57 <sicking> gaah, i don't exist
13:08:14 <sicking> i irc, therefor i exist
13:09:11 <anne> KK: What about XSS issues?
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13:10:23 <anne> PLH: I agree we cannot solve the XSS issues
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13:10:35 <anne> PLH: My goal is that we do not set up services on these domains
13:10:47 <anne> PLH: so there is no problem, effectively
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13:11:31 <anne> AVK: as long as w3.org does not document.domain we are fine, otherwise it might be safer to use w3test.org
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13:13:43 <anne> MJS: There might be a problem in the future; everything should be safe if we do not use a subdomain
13:14:49 <anne> JS: I have an idea for non-automatible tests, but we can discuss that later
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13:15:54 <anne> JS: The way I would like us to do new things is write tests in the new format if it is compatible with our features
13:16:21 <anne> MJS: We have a requirement for landing new features and we could require them to be written in the HTML format
13:17:06 <anne> AvK: We have used this format successfully already
13:17:20 <anne> AvK: e.g. for server-sent events and XMLHttpRequest
13:18:23 <anne> MJS: one thing we might need to do is identify features in the specification which are not new but still need tests
13:19:22 <anne> MJS: there is an HTML4 test suite
13:19:33 <anne> AvK: I do not think we should start from that
13:20:06 <anne> [people agree]
13:20:45 <anne> HS: How does updating work?
13:20:55 <anne> JS: We will have to figure it out
13:21:28 <anne> HS: for html5lib WebKit first lands in WebKit, I land first in html5lib
13:21:41 <anne> [HS implements for Gecko]
13:21:51 <anne> SW: We are not opposed to change
13:23:36 <anne> Topic: Pushing policy
13:23:50 <anne> AvK: I think if the test contributor is known the tests should just get in
13:23:57 <anne> JS: I do not agree, I think we should have a staging area
13:24:02 <anne> KK: I think so too
13:24:22 <anne> MJS: I think it makes more sense that the testing in browsers happens later and that tests should get automatically in
13:26:05 <anne> [scribe misses out on discussing Mozilla specifics]
13:27:34 <anne> Topic: staging area
13:27:49 <anne> KK: Basically you have a set of tests, and wait for them to be approved
13:28:07 <anne> MJS: What do you want the approver to actually do?
13:28:11 <anne> KK: cursory review
13:28:34 <dbaron> q+ to talk about what happens when failures are reported
13:28:39 <anne> AB: I think it might be worth having almost automatic approval process
13:28:47 <anne> AB: for tests that pass in multiple user agents
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13:29:06 <dbaron> Zakim, remind us in 4 hours to go home
13:29:06 <Zakim> ok, dbaron
13:29:08 <dbaron> q+ to talk about what happens when failures are reported
13:29:37 <anne> MJS: why does there need to be this approval step? it will happen in distributed form anyway
13:30:02 <anne> AB: to increase the level of quality
13:30:11 <anne> MJS: it does not seem to happen now
13:30:15 <anne> AvK: agreed
13:30:59 <anne> DB: I am not sure that a approval process is good for known contributors
13:31:36 <anne> MJS: It seems like a waste of time of people to require people to manually run the tests in every browser before it is approved
13:32:28 <anne> MJS: there will also be cases that fail in all browsers
13:33:52 <anne> DB: it seems you want a staging area because you want a known good set of tests
13:34:27 <anne> DB: an alternative approach is to ship a release, rather than delay on trunk
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13:35:40 <anne> HS: not having a lot of process helped html5lib to move forward faster
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13:36:59 <anne> MJS: with a release you know it does not get worse
13:37:47 <anne> KK: the idea of approved is that is done
13:37:53 <anne> AvK: so far that has not worked I think
13:38:23 <anne> MJS: I think you will always get more tests and with releases you know the delta and can review whether that is ok as you already know the previous release was ok
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13:40:06 <anne> [something about multiple vendors contributing tests being awesome]
13:40:46 <anne> MJS: problematic tests can be removed from the release
13:41:01 <hsivonen> fantasai: Microsoft testa a lot of value combinations. Mozilla tests tricky edge cases.
13:41:43 <fantasai> fantasai: Different vendors take different approaches to testing, and thereby cover different aspects of the features.
13:41:55 <fantasai> fantasai: By putting them together you get a more comprehensive test suite
13:43:00 <anne> JS: if the release process does not work we can revise it
13:43:26 <anne> KK: i like to lock things done
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13:43:46 <anne> DB: if browsers import the tests they will report the problems more quickly
13:45:02 <anne> KK: in the current model the test can be pulled right away
13:45:54 <anne> [mercurial haz magic]
13:46:14 <anne> JS: If I find something wrong should I fix the test and mail the list
13:46:24 <anne> KK: currently mail the list
13:46:30 <anne> KK: and open a bug
13:46:58 <anne> MJS: I think people who report the bug should be allowed to fix the test
13:48:46 <anne> AvK: you want to optimize for the case that is most common, and most common the bug reporter will be correct I think
13:48:56 <anne> DB: you should notify the person who wrote the test
13:49:44 <anne> JS: I am fine with attaching patches to bugs
13:51:42 <anne> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing
13:52:55 <plh> --> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2010Feb/0014.html Mercurial server
13:54:39 <dbaron> hg clone http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/
13:54:47 <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/EventSource/eventsource-close.htm is an example of a test following the non-written guidelines
13:55:40 <dbaron> default-push = https://[USERNAME]@dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/
13:56:21 <dbaron> is a line that you'd want to add to .hg/hgrc after:
13:56:23 <dbaron> [paths]
13:56:23 <dbaron> default = http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/
13:57:55 <anne> http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/08/w3c-mercurial
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14:05:28 <hsivonen> let's make one of these: http://ted.mielczarek.org/code/mozilla/mochitest-maker/
14:06:39 <hsivonen> that is, we should have a tool like that for the W3C harness
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14:21:26 <krisk> see http://test.w3.org/html/tests/
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14:23:51 <hsivonen> I'm already annoyed by having to wrap stuff in test()
14:24:30 <hsivonen> so I can't do ok(false, "FAIL!"); in scripts that aren't supposed to run
14:24:46 <plh> ACTION: Kris to add reftest handling in the test harness
14:24:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-200 - Add reftest handling in the test harness [on Kris Krueger - due 2010-11-12].
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14:43:01 <krisk> http://test.w3.org/html/tests/approved/getElementsByClassName/001.htm uses a relative path
14:48:47 <hsivonen> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Mercurial_Queues
14:51:38 <hsivonen> you'll really want to use MQ
14:55:16 <anne> Media Queries ftw
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15:00:46 <krisk> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing
15:00:50 <weinig> sicking: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing
15:01:37 <plh> a reftest: http://test.w3.org/html/tests/submission/W3C/bidi-markup-export/html5-html/
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15:12:13 <dbaron> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg
15:12:13 <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg...
15:13:13 <krisk> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:13:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html krisk
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15:26:07 <mjs> yay I pushed a test case!
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15:48:08 <plh> zakim, bye
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15:48:13 <plh> rrsagent, bye
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-actions.rdf :
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Henri to give feedback to Larry on MIME etc draft [1]
15:48:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T11-31-35
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Anne to give Alexey info about registry problems [2]
15:48:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T11-33-54
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: plh to work with systeam to make sure we keep track of hg push [3]
15:48:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T16-25-26
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Julian to Ask the IANA designated experts if this would be an acceptable model [4]
15:48:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T11-11-09
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Julian to Ask the IANA designated experts if this would be an acceptable model [5]
15:48:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T11-15-30
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: sicking to design a file format for describing tests, and to write a harness that will run the automated tests [6]
15:48:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T13-05-40
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Sicking to design a file format for describing tests, and to write a harness that will run the automated tests [7]
15:48:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T13-05-54-1
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: kris to update the wiki [8]
15:48:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T13-07-23
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Sicking to design a file format for describing tests, and to write a harness that will run the automated tests [9]
15:48:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T13-07-43
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jonas to design a file format for describing tests, and to write a harness that will run the automated tests [10]
15:48:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T13-07-49
15:48:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kris to add reftest handling in the test harness [11]
15:48:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc#T14-24-46
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