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Chatlog 2011-07-21
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13:51:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 13:51:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-rdfa-irc 13:51:09 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa 13:51:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 13:51:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa 13:51:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332 13:51:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes 13:51:12 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference 13:51:12 <trackbot> Date: 21 July 2011 13:51:12 <manu1> Guest: Stéphane (scor) Corlosquet 13:51:12 <manu1> Guest: Henri (bergie) Bergius 13:51:12 <manu1> Guest: Niklas (lindstream) Lindström 13:51:14 <lindstream> lindstream has joined #rdfa 13:54:16 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started 13:54:24 <Zakim> + +44.123.456.aaaa 13:54:33 <SebastianGermesin> zakim, i am aaaa 13:54:34 <Zakim> +SebastianGermesin; got it 13:57:35 <Zakim> +??P5 13:57:53 <gkellogg> zakim, +??P5 is gkellogg 13:57:53 <Zakim> sorry, gkellogg, I do not recognize a party named '+??P5' 13:57:54 <Zakim> +??P6 13:58:05 <gkellogg> zakim, i am +??P5 13:58:05 <Zakim> sorry, gkellogg, I do not see a party named '+??P5' 13:58:08 <Zakim> +scor 13:58:19 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call? 13:58:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, ??P5, ??P6, scor 13:58:22 <gkellogg> zakim, i am ??P5 13:58:23 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it 13:58:32 <tomayac> tomayac has joined #rdfa 13:58:41 <lindstream> zakim, I am +??P6 13:58:41 <Zakim> sorry, lindstream, I do not see a party named '+??P6' 13:58:55 <Zakim> +??P12 13:59:00 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P12 13:59:00 <Zakim> +manu1; got it 13:59:08 <lindstream> zakim, I am ??P6 13:59:09 <Zakim> +lindstream; got it 13:59:20 <scor> scor has joined #rdfa 13:59:51 <scor> zakim, who is on the phone 13:59:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', scor 13:59:58 <scor> zakim, who is on the phone? 13:59:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, gkellogg, lindstream, scor, manu1 14:00:33 <gkellogg> scribe: gkellogg 14:00:46 <Zakim> +Steven 14:00:48 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 14:00:53 <Zakim> + +3539149aabb 14:00:55 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 14:00:55 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 14:00:57 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 14:00:57 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 14:01:01 <Knud> Knud has joined #rdfa 14:01:19 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone? 14:01:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, gkellogg, lindstream, scor, manu1, Steven, MacTed (muted), +3539149aabb 14:01:27 <Knud> zakim, I am +aabb 14:01:27 <Zakim> sorry, Knud, I do not see a party named '+aabb' 14:01:30 <Zakim> +??P34 14:01:35 <Knud> zakim, I am aabb 14:01:41 <Zakim> +tomayac 14:01:50 <Zakim> +Knud; got it 14:01:55 <ShaneM> zakim, I am ??P34 14:01:57 <Knud> zakim, mute me 14:02:13 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it 14:02:17 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted 14:02:31 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/Scribing.html 14:03:26 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call? 14:03:39 <Zakim> + +358.405.25aacc 14:03:39 <scor> scribe: scor 14:03:43 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0042.html 14:03:49 <bergie> zakim, I am aacc 14:03:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, gkellogg, lindstream, scor, manu1, Steven, MacTed (muted), Knud (muted), ShaneM, tomayac, +358.405.25aacc 14:04:03 <bergie> zakim, mute me 14:04:22 <Zakim> +bergie; got it 14:04:22 <Steven> agenda? 14:04:31 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted 14:05:03 <Steven> http://www.doodle.com/87nkyax5q5bma698#table 14:05:15 <scor_> scor_ has joined #rdfa 14:05:20 <scor> manu1: any change to the agenda? 14:07:35 <scor_> manu1: everyone ok for having a call on Aug 4th? 14:07:36 <bergie> I *may* be able to join Aug 4th, but not sure 14:07:53 <scor_> manu1: Aug 4th is the only telecon which might be cancelled 14:08:34 <scor_> Topic: structured-data.org update 14:09:14 <scor_> http://linter.structured-data.org/ 14:09:17 <manu1> I owe you guys a front-page... 14:09:18 <gkellogg> Linter - http://linter.structured-data.org/ 14:10:10 <scor_> scor_: hope to launch early next week 14:10:53 <scor_> gkellogg: mimic google rich snippets. schema.org is todo, plus other schemas like FOAF, SIOC 14:11:13 <scor_> manu1: fantastic to work on that, should be beneficial for lots of people 14:11:53 <scor_> manu1: we want to get Microdata and microformats folks on board, ensure that they have edit/mod privileges to the website, but I have not been successful so far (very busy and missed them on IRC) 14:12:26 <tomayac> ok w/ me 14:12:35 <bergie> looks good 14:12:35 <scor_> manu1: any concerns with including other groups? and launch early next week anyways? 14:13:11 <scor_> gkellogg: we don't have microformats now (no parser available). if anyone has pointers to parser (XSLT maybe) 14:13:19 <scor_> manu1: not much available 14:13:55 <scor_> Topic: Microdata/RDF conversion 14:14:54 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes 14:14:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven 14:15:26 <Steven> Chair: Manu 14:15:53 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes 14:15:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven 14:16:55 <gkellogg> q+ 14:18:27 <ShaneM> q+ 14:18:37 <manu1> ack gkellogg 14:18:49 <gkellogg> Topic with Hixie comment: https://plus.google.com/u/0/115203359751471044302/posts/92VKitpppB4 14:18:59 <scor_> manu1: the RDF conversion steps could be removed the RDF processing rules from the microdata specs 14:19:34 <bergie> q+ 14:19:42 <ShaneM> ack ShaneM 14:19:51 <manu1> ack bergie 14:19:51 <bergie> zakim, unmute me 14:19:54 <Zakim> bergie was not muted, bergie 14:20:25 <scor_> bergie: if the RDF processing were to be removed from microdata, we would end up with 2 separate formats - that might be bad. 14:20:36 <bergie> zakim, mute me 14:20:36 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted 14:20:37 <lindstream> q+ 14:20:38 <scor_> bergie: then would people both with RDFa at all for SEO? 14:20:45 <scor_> s/both/bother 14:21:26 <manu1> zakim, who is making noise? 14:21:37 <Zakim> manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: lindstream (46%), scor (15%) 14:21:43 <bergie> the advantage for microdata not being RDF would of course be clarity: you do schema.org microdata only for SEO, RDFa for linked data 14:22:06 <ShaneM> I do agree that if microdata stops having an RDF mapping it would be a good thing 14:22:13 <scor_> lindstream: could there be one monolithic format for schema.org as a subset of RDFa 1.1? 14:23:24 <scor_> manu1: if the RDF steps are removed from microdata, this might be enough to avoid forming the W3C TAG RDFa/Microdata TF. 14:23:59 <scor_> manu1: but then, people might think that there is no reason to implement RDFa for SEO because it seems more complex (but has roughly the same level of complexity as Microdata for the schema.org use cases). However, there are other important use cases for RDFa - universal data model for the web, publishing data via your website in a way that is compatible with Linked Data and with larger systems that integrate data. There are good reasons for picking each technology - Microformats if you want to publish basic information or dip your toes into the lower-case semantic web. Microdata if you want something a bit more advanced than Microformats and something that will work with schema.org w/ a simple API. RDFa if you want something that is designed for Linked Data, the upper-case Semantic Web, allows you to create your own Web vocabularies, allows you to do vocabulary mixing easily, works with big data. 14:25:23 <manu1> Topic: Alternate @profile proposals 14:25:25 <lindstream> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0048.html 14:26:33 <scor_> lindstream: profiles are complex. primary suggestion (item #2) is to move mapping of terms from a syntax level to a semantic level 14:26:53 <scor_> lindstream: use the vocab attr only. and instead describe vocabularies which import other terms 14:27:14 <scor_> lindstream: like schema.org and ogp, they define every single term that they think people will need 14:28:07 <scor_> lindstream: it's vocabulary design, as opposed to embeding vocab definitions in RDFa 14:28:20 <scor_> lindstream: markup would look more like microdata 14:28:28 <manu1> q+ 14:28:33 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:29:07 <scor_> manu1: at the time, we didn't see problems or any danger with profiles 14:29:43 <tomayac> looking at your gist, lindstream: https://gist.github.com/1092350 14:29:50 <lindstream> q+ 14:30:05 <scor_> manu1: in your email, you provide a mechanism to define terms. solution #2 is interesting for the RDF people (the rest don't care because it's close to microdata syntax) 14:30:37 <manu1> ack manu1 14:31:00 <tomayac> is this something like inlined grddl? 14:32:35 <gkellogg> q+ 14:32:37 <scor_> lindstream: solution #2 specifies a new emerging pattern for the semantic web (broader than RDFa) 14:32:50 <scor_> lindstream: great value in linking terms from your vocabs to other vocabs 14:33:38 <scor_> lindstream: defining this mapping vocabulary is for the benefit of the general RDF community 14:33:40 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:33:53 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#RDFSRules 14:34:50 <lindstream> q+ 14:34:57 <scor_> gkellogg: some of the RDFS entailment rules would accomplish the same thing. we could generate a subset vocab for class and properties. 14:34:59 <manu1> ack gkellogg 14:35:45 <scor_> lindstream: good point, will include that in my next email. chicken and egg: you produce triples intended to be remapped, which won't be remapped until other use the same mechanism 14:36:34 <scor_> manu1: there were a few concerns about remove profiles 14:36:46 <scor_> s/remove/removing 14:36:54 <lindstream> q+ 14:37:08 <scor_> manu1: people who want to keep profiles are ShaneM and the ePub folks 14:37:12 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:37:59 <scor_> lindstream: I looked at the ePub spec, it didn't seem too tricky to tweak their work and avoid profiles, and use vocab instead. I will look at that. 14:38:22 <lindstream> q+ 14:38:38 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:38:50 <scor_> manu1: negative: the initial RDF graph you get from the RDFa is not as complete as the one you would using RDFS 14:41:07 <scor_> lindstream: from asking people to reference multiple vocabs in your page, we ask them to reference these other vocabs via an intermediary vocabulary (defined according to the mapping mecahnism) 14:41:12 <lindstream> q+ 14:41:23 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:42:17 <scor_> manu1: what are you thoughts Shane? 14:42:59 <scor_> ShaneM: I've sent an email about my concerns. main point: there has to be a way for authors what they mean to say when using a term 14:43:07 <gkellogg> q+ 14:43:23 <manu1> 1. Why is waiting for all @profile documents to load and then proceeding a bad thing? What makes it technically challenging to implement in a browser? 14:43:25 <manu1> 2. Is there an announcement mechanism for RDFa Core 1.1? We removed @version and pseudo-replaced it with @profile. Do we need to re-introduce @version? If we don't do this, an RDFa 2.0 processor may accidentally corrupt the intent of an RDFa 1.1 document. 14:43:28 <manu1> ack gkellogg 14:44:05 <scor_> gkellogg: re relying on another mapping document. the original reason for this discussion is the need to load the profile during the parsing of the HTML document. 14:44:08 <manu1> q+ 14:44:11 <manu1> ack manu1 14:45:37 <lindstream> q+ 14:46:08 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 14:46:08 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 14:46:11 <scor_> gkellogg: if you have the need to operate on the inferred triples, you still have a (weaker) dependency on the vocabulary 14:46:19 <MacTed> q+ 14:46:27 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:47:13 <scor_> MacTed: there has to be external dependencies no matter what, which have to be dereferenced later 14:47:32 <MacTed> q- 14:47:32 <gkellogg> q+ 14:47:35 <manu1> ack MacTed 14:48:02 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 14:48:02 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 14:48:22 <scor_> lindstream: main point: these dependencies are on the semantic level, not at the parsing level. might break when using the follow your noise, but we always have triple we can operate on 14:49:22 <Steven> s/noise/nose/ 14:50:02 <manu1> ack gkellogg 14:50:32 <scor_> gkellogg: this mechanism processing rules and remove dependencies during that processing 14:50:44 <mike_english> mike_english has joined #rdfa 14:51:04 <scor_> manu1: right, it does not remove the need to do follow your nose, but it puts in a the background, and people who want to use it can just do it 14:51:44 <gkellogg> q+ 14:51:45 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about follow your nose 14:51:57 <manu1> ack gkellogg 14:52:14 <lindstream> q+ 14:52:20 <manu1> ack shanem 14:52:20 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about follow your nose 14:52:29 <scor_> gkellogg: if we do use something like RDFS, the original statement does not get erased, it gets added 14:53:08 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:53:18 <scor_> manu1: how does the RDFa API handle the RDFS rules? We'll have to discuss that in the future. 14:55:27 <manu1> STRAW POLL: Drop @profile as it is defined now, and replace it with Niklas' @vocab proposal (#2 item in his e-mail - proxy vocabularies) 14:55:49 <manu1> +1 14:55:51 <gkellogg> +1 14:55:51 <SebastianGermesin> +1 14:55:52 <Steven> +0 14:55:53 <lindstream> +1 14:55:54 <bergie> +1 14:55:54 <scor_> scor: +1 14:55:57 <tomayac> 0 (no opinion really) 14:56:05 <ShaneM> +0 14:56:07 <Knud> +1 14:56:55 <MacTed> +0 insufficiently considered for me to decide 14:57:10 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 14:57:10 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 14:57:31 <lindstream> q+ 14:57:32 <scor_> manu1: looks like a consensus, but we should ask other groups like IPTC, Google and Facebook 14:57:40 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:57:56 <scor_> lindstream: we should consider the proposal #1 14:58:59 <scor_> manu1: Nathan said it was not possible in RDFa, but I can't recall his reasoning.... 14:59:20 <lindstream> q+ 14:59:21 <manu1> prefix="title: http://purl.org/dc/terms/title dc: http://purl.org/dc/terms/" 14:59:53 <manu1> property="title" or property="dc:title" 14:59:58 <Zakim> -MacTed 15:00:01 <manu1> ack lindstream 15:00:21 <ShaneM> prefix=":title http://purl.org/dc/terms/title dc: http://purl.org/dc/terms/" 15:00:30 <lindstream> prefix=":title http://purl.org/dc/terms/title dc: http://purl.org/dc/terms/" 15:01:04 <scor_> manu1: can't we remove the : in the prefix list? Let's kick this discussion onto the mailing list. 15:03:27 <Zakim> -gkellogg 15:03:31 <Zakim> -Steven 15:03:33 <Zakim> -manu1 15:03:36 <Zakim> -SebastianGermesin 15:03:38 <Zakim> -tomayac 15:03:39 <Zakim> -scor 15:03:41 <Zakim> -bergie 15:03:43 <Zakim> -Knud 15:03:49 <Zakim> -ShaneM 15:04:03 <Zakim> -lindstream 15:04:05 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended 15:04:07 <Zakim> Attendees were +44.123.456.aaaa, SebastianGermesin, scor, gkellogg, manu1, lindstream, Steven, +3539149aabb, MacTed, tomayac, Knud, ShaneM, +358.405.25aacc, bergie # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000236