RDF Working Group

Minutes of 14 April 2011

Present
Ivan Herman, Mischa Tuffield, Dan Brickley, Christopher Matheus, Peter Patel-Schneider, Jan Wielemaker, Jean-François Baget, Nicholas Humfrey, Yves Raimond, Richard Cyganiak, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Fabien Gandon, Steve Harris, Matteo Brunati, Sandro Hawke, David Wood, Guus Schreiber
Guests
Paul Groth, Steven Pemberton
Remote
Antoine Zimmermann, Gavin Carothers, Zhe Wu, Olivier Corby, Ted Thibodeau, Patrick Hayes, Thomas Steiner, Alex Hall, Nathan Rixham, Lee Feigenbaum, Manu Sporny, Souripriya Das
Scribe
Fabien Gandon, Yves Raimond, Christopher Matheus, Richard Cyganiak
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not necessarily "name" graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs (relevant to ISSUE-30) link
  2. Close ISSUE-26 doing nothing. link
  3. Close ISSUE-27, not marking rdf:value as archaic, but with the understand that the modeling advice in RDF Primer will be revisited. link
Topics
<sandro> Guest: Paul Groth
<sandro> Guest: Steven Pemberton
<sandro> Present: Ivan, Mischa, Dan_Brickley, Matheus, Peter, Jan, Baget, Humfrey, Yves, Cygri, Champin, Fabien, Steve, Matteo, Sandro, Wood, Guus
<sandro> Remote: AZ, Gavin, Zhe, Corby, MacTed, Pat, Tom, AlexHall, webr3, LeeF, manu, souri
07:21:55 <tomayac> bonjour monsieur!

Thomas Steiner: bonjour monsieur!

07:33:17 <tomayac> "the conference is restricted at this time" => have the dial-in details changed? using rdfwg1# code

(No events recorded for 11 minutes)

Thomas Steiner: "the conference is restricted at this time" => have the dial-in details changed? using rdfwg1# code

07:34:05 <FabGandon> should work but we haven't called yet and a number of participants are still missing in the room

Fabien Gandon: should work but we haven't called yet and a number of participants are still missing in the room

07:34:26 <tomayac>  9:30 sharp-ish ;-)

Thomas Steiner: 9:30 sharp-ish ;-)

07:40:29 <Steven_> zakim, list

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: zakim, list

07:40:29 <Zakim> I see SW_RDFWG(RDFWG1)2:00AM active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: I see SW_RDFWG(RDFWG1)2:00AM active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15 minutes

07:40:49 <FabGandon> we will have to do an adhoc teleconf the teleconf chanel is not available for today

Fabien Gandon: we will have to do an adhoc teleconf the teleconf chanel is not available for today

07:41:13 <Steven_> zakim, code?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, code?

07:41:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 733941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven_

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 733941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven_

07:41:38 <FabGandon> trying again...

Fabien Gandon: trying again...

07:41:40 <Steven_> zakim, who is on the call?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is on the call?

07:41:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa

07:42:13 <PatH> Same message here

Patrick Hayes: Same message here

07:42:23 <tomayac> same here

Thomas Steiner: same here

07:42:45 <davidwood> We're working on it - please stand by

David Wood: We're working on it - please stand by

07:42:56 <Steven_> zakim, room for 15 for 600 minutes?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, room for 15 for 600 minutes?

07:42:58 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; conference Team_(rdf-wg)07:42Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 600 minutes until 1742Z

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven_; conference Team_(rdf-wg)07:42Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 600 minutes until 1742Z

07:43:06 <davidwood> We'll announce a new dial in code shortly

David Wood: We'll announce a new dial in code shortly

07:43:12 <FabGandon> dial 26631

Fabien Gandon: dial 26631

07:43:18 <davidwood> PLEASE USE CONFERENCE CODE 26631

David Wood: PLEASE USE CONFERENCE CODE 26631

07:43:35 <Steven_> Steven_ has changed the topic to: CODE is 26631

Steven Pemberton: Steven_ has changed the topic to: CODE is 26631

07:43:41 <davidwood> Sorry for the confusion.  Our bridge was not configured as we expected.

David Wood: Sorry for the confusion. Our bridge was not configured as we expected.

07:44:04 <Steven_> zakim, who is on the call?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is on the call?

07:44:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa

07:44:21 <NickH> Good Morning!

Nicholas Humfrey: Good Morning!

07:44:25 <Steven_> zakim, this is rdf-wg

Steven Pemberton: zakim, this is rdf-wg

07:44:25 <Zakim> Steven_, this was SW_RDFWG(RDFWG1)2:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: Steven_, this was SW_RDFWG(RDFWG1)2:00AM

07:44:27 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; that matches Team_(rdf-wg)07:42Z

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven_; that matches Team_(rdf-wg)07:42Z

07:44:33 <Steven_> zakim, who is on the call?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is on the call?

07:44:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, PatH, tomayac, OlivierCorby

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, PatH, tomayac, OlivierCorby

07:44:40 <OlivierCorby> Hi, phone is ok now

Olivier Corby: Hi, phone is ok now

07:44:48 <Zakim> +AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ

07:45:46 <PatH> Sound quality is rather poor today

Patrick Hayes: Sound quality is rather poor today

07:45:50 <FabGandon> scribe: Fabien

(Scribe set to Fabien Gandon)

07:46:40 <FabGandon> guus: identifying the 4 issues to be discussed

Guus Schreiber: identifying the 4 issues to be discussed

07:46:50 <Steven> 30, 31, 15

Steven Pemberton: 30, 31, 15

07:46:51 <FabGandon> ... 5 30 31 and 15

... 5 30 31 and 15

07:46:57 <gavinc> zakim, the code is?

Gavin Carothers: zakim, the code is?

07:46:57 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, gavinc.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, gavinc.

07:47:03 <Steven> zakim, code?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, code?

07:47:03 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven

07:47:32 <FabGandon> cygri: 31 is a bit out of the list

Richard Cyganiak: 31 is a bit out of the list

07:47:52 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/30

Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/30

07:48:06 <FabGandon> davidwood: sugest we start with issue 30

David Wood: suggest we start with ISSUE-30

07:48:06 <Zakim> +gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc

07:48:07 <FabGandon> Topic: Four issues of "Named Graphs".

1. Four issues of "Named Graphs".

07:48:08 <FabGandon> subtopic: Aligning SPARQL notions and RDF 1.1 g-* notions.

1.1. Aligning SPARQL notions and RDF 1.1 g-* notions.

07:48:18 <FabGandon>   ISSUE-30: How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs?

ISSUE-30: How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs?

07:48:18 <trackbot> ISSUE-30 How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-30 How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? notes added

07:48:20 <Steven> s/sugest/suggest/
07:49:47 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rdfDataset <-- sparql dataset as per rdf sparql query 1.0

Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rdfDataset <-- sparql dataset as per rdf sparql query 1.0

07:50:23 <FabGandon>   Cygri : SPARQL defines Dataset as data data model used in SPARQL query i.e. collection of graph = one default graph and a set of named graphs <IRI,Graph>

Cygri : SPARQL defines Dataset as data data model used in SPARQL query i.e. collection of graph = one default graph and a set of named graphs <IRI,Graph>

07:50:33 <tomayac> AZ: +1, sound is low quality :-(

Antoine Zimmermann: +1, sound is low quality :-( [ Scribe Assist by Thomas Steiner ]

07:50:47 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal

Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal

07:51:19 <FabGandon>   ... they use the term named graph and it is a g-snap in our terminology because immutable

... they use the term named graph and it is a g-snap in our terminology because immutable

07:51:50 <pchampin> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-sparql11-update-20091022/#sec_graphStore

Pierre-Antoine Champin: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-sparql11-update-20091022/#sec_graphStore

07:52:37 <PatH> +q

Patrick Hayes: +q

07:52:43 <FabGandon> ... graph store :"unlike an RDF dataset, named graphs can be added to or deleted from a graph store"

... graph store :"unlike an RDF dataset, named graphs can be added to or deleted from a graph store"

07:53:03 <FabGandon> ivan: the mutability is on the store not on the graph

Ivan Herman: the mutability is on the store not on the graph

07:53:49 <FabGandon> ... are the graphs explicitly immutable ?

... are the graphs explicitly immutable ?

07:53:51 <PatH> sound quality is poor but usable

Patrick Hayes: sound quality is poor but usable

07:54:26 <FabGandon> cygri : the spec are not specific on this ; not really addressed

cygri : the spec are not specific on this ; not really addressed

07:54:57 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

07:55:17 <FabGandon> ivan: IMO the dataset is a set of g-boxes

Ivan Herman: IMO the dataset is a set of g-boxes

07:55:38 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

07:55:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, PatH, tomayac, OlivierCorby, AZ, gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, PatH, tomayac, OlivierCorby, AZ, gavinc

07:55:52 <FabGandon> cygri: the evaluation of a SPARQL query is defined against an immutable dataset

Richard Cyganiak: the evaluation of a SPARQL query is defined against an immutable dataset

07:56:09 <davidwood> q+ to discuss graph store relationships to g-boxes and g-snaps.

David Wood: q+ to discuss graph store relationships to g-boxes and g-snaps.

07:56:34 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

07:56:39 <ivan> ack PatH

Ivan Herman: ack PatH

07:56:42 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

07:56:47 <FabGandon> PatH: we shouldn’t be agnostic we should say what the graph is e.g. we should say it is a g-box that has a name

Patrick Hayes: we shouldn’t be agnostic we should say what the graph is e.g. we should say it is a g-box that has a name

07:57:25 <FabGandon> cygri: SPARQL uses the term named graph, the IRI is the name for the graph in SPARQL

Richard Cyganiak: SPARQL uses the term named graph, the IRI is the name for the graph in SPARQL

07:57:59 <mischat> PatH: there is no need to introduce confusion

Patrick Hayes: there is no need to introduce confusion [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ]

07:57:59 <AZ> We can certainly see a SPARQL dataset as a snapshot of the graph store (the graph store is mutable but the snapshot is fixed to define what's the result of a query)

Antoine Zimmermann: We can certainly see a SPARQL dataset as a snapshot of the graph store (the graph store is mutable but the snapshot is fixed to define what's the result of a query)

07:58:47 <FabGandon>   PatH: RDF should specify the semantic of names if there is to be an interpretation of that name

PatH: RDF should specify the semantic of names if there is to be an interpretation of that name

07:59:14 <FabGandon> ... if we don't we leave the question open to endless discussions.

... if we don't we leave the question open to endless discussions.

07:59:53 <davidwood> +1 to PatH, in that if we define what we mean we won't have misunderstandings as we do with "information resource" or "what *is* RDF".

David Wood: +1 to PatH, in that if we define what we mean we won't have misunderstandings as we do with "information resource" or "what *is* RDF".

08:00:41 <JFB> +1 to PatH: if there is some specifing meaning to names, it must be formalized in RDF Semantics

Jean-François Baget: +1 to PatH: if there is some specifing meaning to names, it must be formalized in RDF Semantics

08:00:42 <FabGandon> PatH: we need to declare in a declarative text what the interpretation is for the IRI naming a graph.

Patrick Hayes: we need to declare in a declarative text what the interpretation is for the IRI naming a graph.

08:01:34 <FabGandon> cygri: Can we use the name of doc as the name of graph.

Richard Cyganiak: Can we use the name of doc as the name of graph.

08:01:44 <FabGandon> PatH: we can't prevent that

Patrick Hayes: we can't prevent that

08:03:10 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to discuss graph store relationships to g-boxes and g-snaps.

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to discuss graph store relationships to g-boxes and g-snaps.

08:03:57 <FabGandon> davidwood: several graph stores are maintainers of g-boxes implemented as multiple reader single writer

David Wood: several graph stores are maintainers of g-boxes implemented as multiple reader single writer

08:04:38 <FabGandon> ... when a query comes in they generate sets of g-snaps from the current state of the g-boxes.

... when a query comes in they generate sets of g-snaps from the current state of the g-boxes.

08:05:12 <FabGandon> SteveH: yes that's what happens.

Steve Harris: yes that's what happens.

08:05:30 <PatH> we have yet to specify what a g-box is semantically. We will have to speak of states and g-snaps there.

Patrick Hayes: we have yet to specify what a g-box is semantically. We will have to speak of states and g-snaps there.

08:06:22 <PatH> in other words, this box/snap issue will have to be dealt with there in any case.

Patrick Hayes: in other words, this box/snap issue will have to be dealt with there in any case.

08:06:31 <sandro> guus: When you do a SPARQL Query, you are querying at a point in time, so you are querying against the set of g-snaps which is the current contents of those g-boxes.

Guus Schreiber: When you do a SPARQL Query, you are querying at a point in time, so you are querying against the set of g-snaps which is the current contents of those g-boxes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:06:32 <FabGandon> Guus: at that point there is no conflict between our view and SPARQL

Guus Schreiber: at that point there is no conflict between our view and SPARQL

08:06:40 <davidwood> PatH: Yes

Patrick Hayes: Yes [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

08:06:56 <davidwood> Yes, there is no conflict.

David Wood: Yes, there is no conflict.

08:07:00 <FabGandon> subtopic: relation between the graph and its name.

1.2. relation between the graph and its name.

08:07:40 <sandro> pchampin: I want to be able to use my own arbitrary data as the "graph" name in SPARQL.

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I want to be able to use my own arbitrary data as the "graph" name in SPARQL. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:08:00 <FabGandon> pchampin: I feel uncomfortable with fixing the semantics of the relation name of graphs  and the store ; it depends on my use of the quadstore

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I feel uncomfortable with fixing the semantics of the relation name of graphs  and the store ; it depends on my use of the quadstore

08:08:57 <FabGandon> cygri: I don’t see this machinery as answering a large demand ; I don’t feel there is a huge demand on fixing that semantics

Richard Cyganiak: I don’t see this machinery as answering a large demand ; I don’t feel there is a huge demand on fixing that semantics

08:09:27 <FabGandon> ... what do we gain from defining the interpretation of named graphs ?

... what do we gain from defining the interpretation of named graphs ?

08:09:56 <pchampin> sometimes, I name a graph in my quad store with the URI of the g-box this graph comes from,

Pierre-Antoine Champin: sometimes, I name a graph in my quad store with the URI of the g-box this graph comes from,

08:10:08 <pchampin> sometimes, I name it with the URI of the resource it is about

Pierre-Antoine Champin: sometimes, I name it with the URI of the resource it is about

08:10:09 <FabGandon> danbri: are you confortable with the level of interoperability that would set?

Dan Brickley: are you confortable with the level of interoperability that would set?

08:10:36 <sandro> +1 danbri we need more interop between datastores (there is breakage when people use different styles of URIs)

Sandro Hawke: +1 danbri we need more interop between datastores (there is breakage when people use different styles of URIs)

08:11:10 <pfps> I don't know how the RDF semantics is going to speak to things like timestamping downloads of RDF documents.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I don't know how the RDF semantics is going to speak to things like timestamping downloads of RDF documents.

08:11:38 <FabGandon> PatH: defining the semantics will not have so much implication on the implementation that seems to be feared. The idea is not to interfere with the machinery.

Patrick Hayes: defining the semantics will not have so much implication on the implementation that seems to be feared. The idea is not to interfere with the machinery.

08:11:42 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

08:11:46 <danbri> it's something like a lack of mechanism for saying how *my* sparql store is managed. One might use 'the URI I fetched = the graph URI', another uses a uuid: per-transaction, and a table-of-contents history graph. Sure I can send SPARQL queries across both at same time, but the results might be barely meaningful.

Dan Brickley: it's something like a lack of mechanism for saying how *my* sparql store is managed. One might use 'the URI I fetched = the graph URI', another uses a uuid: per-transaction, and a table-of-contents history graph. Sure I can send SPARQL queries across both at same time, but the results might be barely meaningful.

08:13:10 <FabGandon> sandro: the machinery will complain for instance if I use the URI of a graph to identify a person and these classes are disjoint.

Sandro Hawke: the machinery will complain for instance if I use the URI of a graph to identify a person and these classes are disjoint.

08:13:59 <danbri> PatH, the triples could have semantics, but their bundling and tagging with graph URIs could lack semantics

Dan Brickley: PatH, the triples could have semantics, but their bundling and tagging with graph URIs could lack semantics

08:14:03 <pchampin> q+ to talk about named graphs in SPARQL endpoints

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to talk about named graphs in SPARQL endpoints

08:14:10 <FabGandon> SteveH: there are many use cases where we don't want to do some logical inference on top of RDF.

Steve Harris: there are many use cases where we don't want to do some logical inference on top of RDF.

08:14:53 <pchampin> +1 danbri: I write no *triple* stating that a person is a graph :-)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 danbri: I write no *triple* stating that a person is a graph :-)

08:15:01 <sandro> Pat: It violates the semantics of the language to have the name of a graph also be the name of a person.

Patrick Hayes: It violates the semantics of the language to have the name of a graph also be the name of a person. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:15:15 <FabGandon> cygri:   How does the fact of using a URI for a graph and a person raises a problem in SPARQL?

Richard Cyganiak: How does the fact of using a URI for a graph and a person raises a problem in SPARQL?

08:15:20 <AZ> A name can name several things, like in OWL 2 DL, a name can name a class and a property

Antoine Zimmermann: A name can name several things, like in OWL 2 DL, a name can name a class and a property

08:15:38 <pgroth> could we do both? a name and a tag?

Paul Groth: could we do both? a name and a tag?

08:15:40 <AZ> and classes are disjoint from properties in OWL 2 DL

Antoine Zimmermann: and classes are disjoint from properties in OWL 2 DL

08:15:42 <FabGandon> PatH: lets not call it the names then.

Patrick Hayes: lets not call it the names then.

08:16:43 <sandro> +1 pat

Sandro Hawke: +1 pat

08:16:51 <FabGandon> pfps: RDF is agnostic as to the use of the same IRI to name a graph or a person.

Peter Patel-Schneider: RDF is agnostic as to the use of the same IRI to name a graph or a person.

08:16:51 <ivan> ack pchampin

Ivan Herman: ack pchampin

08:16:51 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to talk about named graphs in SPARQL endpoints

Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to talk about named graphs in SPARQL endpoints

08:17:21 <sandro> pchampin: I'm using the "graph id" as merely a "tag"

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I'm using the "graph id" as merely a "tag" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:17:38 <FabGandon> pchampin: ok to say it’s not really a name but merely a tag.

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ok to say it’s not really a name but merely a tag.

08:18:07 <sandro> +100000 the world here would be MUCH CLEARER if SPARQL forced you to only use graph IDs that you own!!

Sandro Hawke: +100000 the world here would be MUCH CLEARER if SPARQL forced you to only use graph IDs that you own!!

08:18:24 <cygri> sandro -100000

Richard Cyganiak: sandro -100000

08:18:56 <pfps> sandro - so you think that you shouldn't use "anyone else's"  IRIs in a named graph?

Peter Patel-Schneider: sandro - so you think that you shouldn't use "anyone else's" IRIs in a named graph?

08:19:03 <cygri> q+ to disagree with sandro -- web crawling use case

Richard Cyganiak: q+ to disagree with sandro -- web crawling use case

08:19:34 <FabGandon> sandro: I wish SPARQL restricted you to use only URIs that you own i.e. use graphs in a domain you control

Sandro Hawke: I wish SPARQL restricted you to use only URIs that you own i.e. use graphs in a domain you control

08:20:01 <danbri> sandro, that feels to me like having the SQL spec specify that you can only store things that are true

Dan Brickley: sandro, that feels to me like having the SQL spec specify that you can only store things that are true

08:20:09 <pchampin> I sure was not suggesting to restrict SPARQL... :-/

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I sure was not suggesting to restrict SPARQL... :-/

08:20:35 <pchampin> just pointing out that its flexibility allows for different practices... beyong "naming according to Pat"

Pierre-Antoine Champin: just pointing out that its flexibility allows for different practices... beyong "naming according to Pat"

08:20:41 <FabGandon> cygri: strong use case against that : when you crawl the web you want to use the URI from where you got the data.

Richard Cyganiak: strong use case against that : when you crawl the web you want to use the URI from where you got the data.

08:21:17 <FabGandon> sandro: it may be more efficient but you create interoperability problems.

Sandro Hawke: it may be more efficient but you create interoperability problems.

08:21:34 <sandro> Utility is at odds with Interoperability.

Sandro Hawke: Utility is at odds with Interoperability.

08:21:37 <PatH> hard to hear..

Patrick Hayes: hard to hear..

08:21:44 <sandro> Local utility vs Global utility.

Sandro Hawke: Local utility vs Global utility.

08:21:53 <yvesr> another use case is ACL on quad stores

Yves Raimond: another use case is ACL on quad stores

08:22:15 <FabGandon> pchampin: not suggesting restricting what SPARQL allows to do ; just advocating flexibility.

Pierre-Antoine Champin: not suggesting restricting what SPARQL allows to do ; just advocating flexibility.

08:22:41 <cygri> q+ to talk about n3

Richard Cyganiak: q+ to talk about n3

08:22:44 <FabGandon> pgroth: I wonder if we don't need a typing mechanism.

Paul Groth: I wonder if we don't need a typing mechanism.

08:22:44 <sandro> pgroth: There's "naming graph" and there's graph tags.

Paul Groth: There's "naming graph" and there's graph tags. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:22:55 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to talk about n3

Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to talk about n3

08:23:39 <FabGandon> cygri: if you want a graph associated with a URI in N3 you need to put a predicate in-between.

Richard Cyganiak: if you want a graph associated with a URI in N3 you need to put a predicate in-between.

08:24:09 <danbri> is this OK SPARQL? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TaJVsste

Dan Brickley: is this OK SPARQL? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TaJVsste

08:24:19 <FabGandon> ... there is something in the middle that indicates the relation, don't restrict that because in SPARQL it is not restricted.

... there is something in the middle that indicates the relation, don't restrict that because in SPARQL it is not restricted.

08:25:19 <yvesr> danbri, i guess it would - why wouldn't it?

Yves Raimond: danbri, i guess it would - why wouldn't it?

08:25:42 <FabGandon> pfps: in RDF everything is a resources: a graph must be an resource or not ; how can we disconnect graph from that if we name them with IRI?

Peter Patel-Schneider: in RDF everything is a resources: a graph must be an resource or not ; how can we disconnect graph from that if we name them with IRI?

08:26:01 <danbri> q+ to try http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TaJVsste

Dan Brickley: q+ to try http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TaJVsste

08:26:52 <FabGandon> Guus: we need to identify the things we do agree on.

Guus Schreiber: we need to identify the things we do agree on.

08:26:55 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to try http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TaJVsste

Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to try http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TaJVsste

08:27:14 <PatH> sounds like a sparql RDF dataset is not a collection of named graphs. Which surprises me, but I can live with.

Patrick Hayes: sounds like a sparql RDF dataset is not a collection of named graphs. Which surprises me, but I can live with.

08:27:20 <FabGandon> danbri: I want to talk about this test case  http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TaJVsste

Dan Brickley: I want to talk about this test case http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TaJVsste

08:28:14 <FabGandon> ...   this is a SPARQL query querying different databases.

... this is a SPARQL query querying different databases.

08:28:36 <FabGandon> ... can we name graphs with mailto:bla@bla.bla

... can we name graphs with mailto:bla@bla.bla

08:28:38 <PatH> but see what pat just wrote.

Patrick Hayes: but see what pat just wrote.

08:29:08 <FabGandon> yes we can

yes we can

08:29:37 <FabGandon> davidwood: some people say we should always use http://

David Wood: some people say we should always use http://

08:29:55 <FabGandon> danbri: there is a drift from using http:// URIs

Dan Brickley: there is a drift from using http:// URIs

08:30:07 <FabGandon> SteveH: I don't see anything wrong with that.

Steve Harris: I don't see anything wrong with that.

08:30:25 <sandro> sandro: This is just neats vs scruffies --- the graph might be a (scruffy) tag, or might be a name of a proper RDF graph.

Sandro Hawke: This is just neats vs scruffies --- the graph might be a (scruffy) tag, or might be a name of a proper RDF graph. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:30:29 <FabGandon> danbri: what about the provenance perspective?

Dan Brickley: what about the provenance perspective?

08:30:34 <pfps> well, a SPARQL RDF dataset is defined as potentially containing "named graphs"  as this is the first (as far as I know) W3C mention of "named graph", then SPARQL wins and SPARQL RDF datasets have named graphs

Peter Patel-Schneider: well, a SPARQL RDF dataset is defined as potentially containing "named graphs" as this is the first (as far as I know) W3C mention of "named graph", then SPARQL wins and SPARQL RDF datasets have named graphs

08:31:10 <pfps> the upshot of this is that the RDF WG may need a new name for what we have been calling named graphs

Peter Patel-Schneider: the upshot of this is that the RDF WG may need a new name for what we have been calling named graphs

08:31:27 <FabGandon> pgroth: we care about pointing at a resource or at a graph talking about a resource.

Paul Groth: we care about pointing at a resource or at a graph talking about a resource.

08:31:37 <FabGandon> ... we need to be able to point at the content.

... we need to be able to point at the content.

08:32:04 <PatH> pfps, suggest rather we keep named graphs but allow datasets to be something else.

Patrick Hayes: pfps, suggest rather we keep named graphs but allow datasets to be something else.

08:32:30 <danbri> so my example lets me represent the (likely derrived from other stuff) info that Pat says Guus is the name of the holder of his homepage

Dan Brickley: so my example lets me represent the (likely derrived from other stuff) info that Pat says Guus is the name of the holder of his homepage

08:32:52 <pfps> then we need to quickly get SPARQL not to "use up" this name - oops too late, named graphs is already in SPARQL 1.0

Peter Patel-Schneider: then we need to quickly get SPARQL not to "use up" this name - oops too late, named graphs is already in SPARQL 1.0

08:33:40 <pgroth> i like the idea of a default interpretation

Paul Groth: i like the idea of a default interpretation

08:33:47 <FabGandon> pchampin: graphs are resources they need naming and not necessarily a named attached to a SPARQL endpoint.

Pierre-Antoine Champin: graphs are resources they need naming and not necessarily a named attached to a SPARQL endpoint.

08:33:51 <pgroth> that the iri is the name of the graph

Paul Groth: that the iri is the name of the graph

08:34:10 <SteveH> q+ to talk about <uri> :relation <graph>

Steve Harris: q+ to talk about <uri> :relation <graph>

08:34:33 <FabGandon> pfps: do RDF graphs have to be resources ?

Peter Patel-Schneider: do RDF graphs have to be resources ?

08:34:55 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#gloss ''Resource (n.)(as used in RDF)(i) An entity; anything in the universe. (ii) As a class name: the class of everything; the most inclusive category possible.''

Dan Brickley: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#gloss ''Resource (n.)(as used in RDF)(i) An entity; anything in the universe. (ii) As a class name: the class of everything; the most inclusive category possible.''

08:35:09 <PatH> aaaargh. what are 'levels'????

Patrick Hayes: aaaargh. what are 'levels'????

08:35:16 <FabGandon> cygri: graphs are in the abstract syntax; resources are in the model theory

Richard Cyganiak: graphs are in the abstract syntax; resources are in the model theory

08:36:18 <FabGandon> pchampin: graphs must be resources

Pierre-Antoine Champin: graphs must be resources

08:36:23 <sandro> pfps: We have A and Not-A   (where A=Graphs are Resources)

Peter Patel-Schneider: We have A and Not-A (where A=Graphs are Resources) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:37:20 <sandro> pat: Of COURSE graphs are resources.   The model theory clearly says everything is a resource.

Patrick Hayes: Of COURSE graphs are resources. The model theory clearly says everything is a resource. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:37:26 <JFB> +1 everything is a resource, if I am, why wouldn't a graph be ?

Jean-François Baget: +1 everything is a resource, if I am, why wouldn't a graph be ?

08:37:28 <FabGandon> PatH: there are no such notions of levels ; thats not the pb.

Patrick Hayes: there are no such notions of levels ; thats not the pb.

08:37:50 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

08:37:54 <sandro> pat: We could say that SPARQL Datasets are about tagged graphs NOT naming.

Patrick Hayes: We could say that SPARQL Datasets are about tagged graphs NOT naming. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:37:55 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

08:37:57 <sandro> +1 pat

Sandro Hawke: +1 pat

08:37:59 <mischat> +1

Mischa Tuffield: +1

08:38:00 <danbri> +1

Dan Brickley: +1

08:38:12 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

08:38:24 <danbri> q+ to suggest [eventual] best practice note on how *in practice* people are associating URIs with bundles-of-triples

Dan Brickley: q+ to suggest [eventual] best practice note on how *in practice* people are associating URIs with bundles-of-triples

08:38:34 <FabGandon> ... if we say we tag graphs and not we name then we can stop arguing

... if we say we tag graphs and not we name then we can stop arguing

08:39:02 <AZ> But then, how one talks about a graph in triples?

Antoine Zimmermann: But then, how one talks about a graph in triples?

08:39:29 <FabGandon> davidwood: I need a clarification on the difference between the name and a tag.

David Wood: I need a clarification on the difference between the name and a tag.

08:39:30 <ivan> ack SteveH

Ivan Herman: ack SteveH

08:39:30 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to talk about <uri> :relation <graph>

Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to talk about <uri> :relation <graph>

08:40:14 <FabGandon> PatH: the difference is in the relation, tag is neutral.

Patrick Hayes: the difference is in the relation, tag is neutral.

08:40:16 <danbri> 'bundles'

Dan Brickley: 'bundles'

08:40:30 <pgroth> why can't we have a default interpretation ?

Paul Groth: why can't we have a default interpretation ?

08:40:48 <sandro> possible consensus: SPARQL "named graphs" are not "named" in the logical sense.

Sandro Hawke: possible consensus: SPARQL "named graphs" are not "named" in the logical sense.

08:40:58 <cygri> +1 ivan

Richard Cyganiak: +1 ivan

08:40:59 <danbri> pgroth, because there are multiple equally respectable default db management habits

Dan Brickley: pgroth, because there are multiple equally respectable default db management habits

08:41:27 <gavinc> FROM NAMED

Gavin Carothers: FROM NAMED

08:42:01 <sandro> :'(''

Sandro Hawke: :'(''

08:42:20 <FabGandon> ivan: we don't have much choice, the term "named graph" is already used in the whole SPARQL community.

Ivan Herman: we don't have much choice, the term "named graph" is already used in the whole SPARQL community.

08:42:40 <pgroth> danbri, but default doesn't mean you have to

Paul Groth: danbri, but default doesn't mean you have to

08:43:14 <sandro> sandro: Can we at least tell people this is a misleading name?

Sandro Hawke: Can we at least tell people this is a misleading name? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:43:19 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

08:43:56 <PatH> potentially misleading

Patrick Hayes: potentially misleading

08:44:02 <danbri> From a SPARQL perspective, it is legitimate to (a) tag graph-bundles with URI the triples were dereferenced from (b) to tag graph-bundles with URI for the party who made the claim (c) or a trasaction ID, eg. uuid:

Dan Brickley: From a SPARQL perspective, it is legitimate to (a) tag graph-bundles with URI the triples were dereferenced from (b) to tag graph-bundles with URI for the party who made the claim (c) or a trasaction ID, eg. uuid:

08:44:13 <sandro> More Consensus: SPARQL "named graphs" are not necessarily "named" in the logical sense, or RDF graphs.

Sandro Hawke: More Consensus: SPARQL "named graphs" are not necessarily "named" in the logical sense, or RDF graphs.

08:44:25 <sandro> FabGandon we have "tagged boxes" and we will call them "named graphs"

Sandro Hawke: FabGandon we have "tagged boxes" and we will call them "named graphs"

08:44:38 <pchampin> q+ to raise some concern about the semantics of NQuads, then

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to raise some concern about the semantics of NQuads, then

08:44:49 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest [eventual] best practice note on how *in practice* people are associating URIs with bundles-of-triples

Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to suggest [eventual] best practice note on how *in practice* people are associating URIs with bundles-of-triples

08:44:56 <PatH> can we introduce the terminology of "sparql naming"

Patrick Hayes: can we introduce the terminology of "sparql naming"

08:45:12 <davidwood> q+ to as about naming of RDF

David Wood: q+ to as about naming of RDF

08:45:26 <FabGandon> danbri: may be we should first document the current uses of "named graphs"

Dan Brickley: may be we should first document the current uses of "named graphs"

08:45:40 <mischat> q+ to ask about the difference in FROM NAMED and the GRAPH URI

Mischa Tuffield: q+ to ask about the difference in FROM NAMED and the GRAPH URI

08:45:52 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

08:45:57 <sandro> +1 danbri: document the common practices for using sparql graphs names.

Sandro Hawke: +1 danbri: document the common practices for using sparql graphs names.

08:45:58 <PatH> I dont want to start policing sparql usage.

Patrick Hayes: I dont want to start policing sparql usage.

08:46:09 <FabGandon> ... I have three in mind but may be we should have a wiki page to collect them

... I have three in mind but may be we should have a wiki page to collect them

08:46:12 <davidwood> No, we certainly don't

David Wood: No, we certainly don't

08:46:13 <danbri> path --- absolutely not policing, but documenting

Dan Brickley: path --- absolutely not policing, but documenting

08:46:17 <yvesr> PatH, not policing, surevying what's actually happening

Yves Raimond: PatH, not policing, surevying what's actually happening

08:46:18 <PatH> just keep terminology clean

Patrick Hayes: just keep terminology clean

08:46:22 <PatH> OK

Patrick Hayes: OK

08:46:27 <danbri>  -- so we can send SPARQL queries that use GRAPH to services managed in a certain fashion

Dan Brickley: -- so we can send SPARQL queries that use GRAPH to services managed in a certain fashion

08:46:51 <FabGandon> pchampin: NQuads is used to dump a full store

Pierre-Antoine Champin: NQuads is used to dump a full store

08:46:55 <danbri> eg. see http://pastebin.com/TaJVsste ... maybe you have a DB I could usefully send that query to; but maybe Ivan's SPARQL db is managed with a different GRAPH/URI policy

Dan Brickley: eg. see http://pastebin.com/TaJVsste ... maybe you have a DB I could usefully send that query to; but maybe Ivan's SPARQL db is managed with a different GRAPH/URI policy

08:47:02 <danbri> ...so naming those deployment patterns

Dan Brickley: ...so naming those deployment patterns

08:47:02 <mischat> i do think that best practices for linked data re: graphs and named graphs

Mischa Tuffield: i do think that best practices for linked data re: graphs and named graphs

08:47:03 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to as about naming of RDF

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to as about naming of RDF

08:47:05 <FabGandon> ivan: NQuad is juts syntax

Ivan Herman: NQuad is juts syntax

08:47:06 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to raise some concern about the semantics of NQuads, then

Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to raise some concern about the semantics of NQuads, then

08:47:20 <danbri> FDR!

Dan Brickley: FDR!

08:47:39 <FabGandon>  davidwood: concerned about redefining everything.

davidwood: concerned about redefining everything.

08:48:09 <FabGandon> sandro: SPARQL named graphs has little to do with named g-boxes.

Sandro Hawke: SPARQL named graphs has little to do with named g-boxes.

08:48:13 <ivan> ack mischat

Ivan Herman: ack mischat

08:48:13 <Zakim> mischat, you wanted to ask about the difference in FROM NAMED and the GRAPH URI

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat, you wanted to ask about the difference in FROM NAMED and the GRAPH URI

08:48:23 <FabGandon>  Guss: SPARQL is agnostic about.

Guss: SPARQL is agnostic about.

08:49:04 <FabGandon> mischat: It is nice that SPARQL doesn’t force you to use the URL of the doc for the named graph.

Mischa Tuffield: It is nice that SPARQL doesn’t force you to use the URL of the doc for the named graph.

08:49:23 <sandro>  steve: FROM NAMED pulls a graph from some undefined place and puts it in the set of named graphs, but... [lost]

Sandro Hawke: steve: FROM NAMED pulls a graph from some undefined place and puts it in the set of named graphs, but... [lost]

08:50:05 <FabGandon> SteveH: the exact behavior of the default graph changes from store to store.

Steve Harris: the exact behavior of the default graph changes from store to store.

08:50:25 <cygri> +1 mischat

Richard Cyganiak: +1 mischat

08:50:32 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

08:50:42 <danbri> yup

Dan Brickley: yup

08:50:59 <FabGandon> mischat: the best practices could be in a note and not in rec.

Mischa Tuffield: the best practices could be in a note and not in rec.

08:51:54 <FabGandon> davidwood: we don't want to get in the way of LOD

David Wood: we don't want to get in the way of LOD

08:53:06 <FabGandon> ivan: too early to phrase it as a resolution ?

Ivan Herman: too early to phrase it as a resolution ?

08:53:11 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-30 saying that SPARQL Datasets and Named Graphs have no strict or formal connection to a logic of RDF "naming" of Graphs.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-30 saying that SPARQL Datasets and Named Graphs have no strict or formal connection to a logic of RDF "naming" of Graphs.

08:53:29 <pfps> PROPOSED the upcoming notion of multiple graphs is not necessarily the same as named graphs in SPARQL

Peter Patel-Schneider: PROPOSED the upcoming notion of multiple graphs is not necessarily the same as named graphs in SPARQL

08:53:49 <danbri> perhaps  - SPARQL quads are not the kinds of thing that can be interpreted as True vs False; RDF WG quads might or might not add more...

Dan Brickley: perhaps - SPARQL quads are not the kinds of thing that can be interpreted as True vs False; RDF WG quads might or might not add more...

08:54:11 <PatH> suggest that the key point is that just because sparql uses a uri to, um, identify a graph, it does not mean that the uri can be used to refer to the graph  in an rdf triple.

Patrick Hayes: suggest that the key point is that just because sparql uses a uri to, um, identify a graph, it does not mean that the uri can be used to refer to the graph in an rdf triple.

08:54:52 <FabGandon> ivan: we currently have no formal connection between the name and the graph in RDF

Ivan Herman: we currently have no formal connection between the name and the graph in RDF

08:54:53 <danbri> ie. we can ask if the triple "uri-for-guus :homepage http://www.cs.vu.nl/~guus/" is true or not; but we can't yet ask if the quad  "{uri-for-graph} uri-for-guus :homepage http://www.cs.vu.nl/~guus/" is true or false

Dan Brickley: ie. we can ask if the triple "uri-for-guus :homepage http://www.cs.vu.nl/~guus/" is true or not; but we can't yet ask if the quad "{uri-for-graph} uri-for-guus :homepage http://www.cs.vu.nl/~guus/" is true or false

08:55:32 <AZ> PatH +1

Antoine Zimmermann: PatH +1

08:55:42 <danbri> (path, +1 to what?)

Dan Brickley: (path, +1 to what?)

08:55:53 <FabGandon> Guus: who agrees with PatH ?

Guus Schreiber: who agrees with PatH ?

08:56:13 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

08:56:26 <FabGandon>   PatH: you can use the URI but there is no guaranty that it refers to the graph.

PatH: you can use the URI but there is no guaranty that it refers to the graph.

08:56:27 <sandro> sandro: Pat means "refer" in a model theory sense, not a computer science sense.

Sandro Hawke: Pat means "refer" in a model theory sense, not a computer science sense. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:57:05 <gavinc> So what does: SELECT ?s WHERE {GRAPH ?s { ?s ?p ?o }} end up meaning in this case?

Gavin Carothers: So what does: SELECT ?s WHERE {GRAPH ?s { ?s ?p ?o }} end up meaning in this case?

08:57:17 <FabGandon> yvesr: we don't know what a multiple graph is and therefore can we talk about it in a resolution?

Yves Raimond: we don't know what a multiple graph is and therefore can we talk about it in a resolution?

08:58:25 <FabGandon> ivan: when we have clarified notions then we can come back to that question.

Ivan Herman: when we have clarified notions then we can come back to that question.

08:58:28 <yvesr> we can't resolve an issue where half of the question is still undefined

Yves Raimond: we can't resolve an issue where half of the question is still undefined

08:58:56 <PatH> i like 'thruth'

Patrick Hayes: i like 'thruth'

08:59:07 <FabGandon> ... the issue should be postponed.

... the issue should be postponed.

08:59:11 <danbri> quadly thruthyness

Dan Brickley: quadly thruthyness

08:59:22 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, pointer?

08:59:22 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-rdf-wg-irc#T08-59-22

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-rdf-wg-irc#T08-59-22

08:59:22 <PatH> :-)

Patrick Hayes: :-)

08:59:32 <FabGandon> Guus: we can close that issue and open and more precise one.

Guus Schreiber: we can close that issue and open and more precise one.

08:59:37 <JFB> +1 for semantics of a predicate that would capture SPARQL's behaviour, but we're not ready yet for that

Jean-François Baget: +1 for semantics of a predicate that would capture SPARQL's behaviour, but we're not ready yet for that

08:59:54 <yvesr> issue-30 might be dependent on issue-15

Yves Raimond: ISSUE-30 might be dependent on ISSUE-15

09:00:36 <FabGandon> pchampin: this question is linked to issue 15 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15

Pierre-Antoine Champin: this question is linked to ISSUE-15 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15

09:00:44 <sandro> issue-15?

Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-15?

09:00:44 <trackbot> ISSUE-15 -- What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-15 -- What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc -- open

09:00:44 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15

09:00:45 <mischat> again, you could have a best practices document stating how you can use named graphs in a quad store in a truthy way, but neither rdf nor sparql mandates this, but it would be a good thing for quad store/linked data interoperability -- would be a good note for a primer

Mischa Tuffield: again, you could have a best practices document stating how you can use named graphs in a quad store in a truthy way, but neither rdf nor sparql mandates this, but it would be a good thing for quad store/linked data interoperability -- would be a good note for a primer

09:02:00 <FabGandon> Guus: 30 is about alignment with SPARQL and 15 is about our internal changes to RDF.

Guus Schreiber: 30 is about alignment with SPARQL and 15 is about our internal changes to RDF.

09:02:31 <FabGandon> ... in solving issue 15 we should not conflict with SPARQL.

... in solving ISSUE-15 we should not conflict with SPARQL.

09:02:37 <PatH> yes, fine

Patrick Hayes: yes, fine

09:02:53 <PatH> yes,

Patrick Hayes: yes,

09:03:14 <PatH> sorry cant unmute but agree with what you are saying

Patrick Hayes: sorry cant unmute but agree with what you are saying

09:03:26 <FabGandon> Guus: we should remove dataset from issue 15 this is addressed in issue 30

Guus Schreiber: we should remove dataset from ISSUE-15 this is addressed in ISSUE-30

09:03:47 <sandro> PROPOSED: ISSUE-15 is about our internal notions of multiple graphs, while ISSUE-30 is about how that related to SPARQL's notion.  We do not expect the association of IRIs and graphs in SPARQL datasets to be RDF's identification/reference relationship.

PROPOSED: ISSUE-15 is about our internal notions of multiple graphs, while ISSUE-30 is about how that related to SPARQL's notion. We do not expect the association of IRIs and graphs in SPARQL datasets to be RDF's identification/reference relationship.

09:04:03 <FabGandon> davidwood: etc. is not precise enough , issue 15 should be rephrased properly

David Wood: etc. is not precise enough , ISSUE-15 should be rephrased properly

09:04:48 <danbri> proposed: "While it is attractive to seek more clarity on relationship between some graph of triples and URIs they're tagged with, ... we note that SPARQL deployments have assigned URIs in a variety of ways, each of which being useful and compliant. There may be value in documenting these deployment styles (e.g. URIs for docs, abstract graphs, human sources or transaction IDs) so that SPARQL stores and serializations of URI-tagged triples can b

PROPOSED: "While it is attractive to seek more clarity on relationship between some graph of triples and URIs they're tagged with, ... we note that SPARQL deployments have assigned URIs in a variety of ways, each of which being useful and compliant. There may be value in documenting these deployment styles (e.g. URIs for docs, abstract graphs, human sources or transaction IDs) so that SPARQL stores and serializations of URI-tagged triples can b

09:04:48 <danbri> e made more richly interoperable."

Dan Brickley: e made more richly interoperable."

09:05:02 <FabGandon>   Guus: we should start with defining our own terminology before aligning with SPARQL.

Guus: we should start with defining our own terminology before aligning with SPARQL.

09:05:11 <cygri> proposed: "Named Graphs in SPARQL “loosely associate” IRIs and graphs. They do not “name” graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs."

PROPOSED: "Named Graphs in SPARQL “loosely associate” IRIs and graphs. They do not “name” graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs."

09:06:20 <FabGandon>  ISSUE-30: cygri proposes "Named Graphs in SPARQL “loosely associate” IRIs and graphs. They do not “name” graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs."

ISSUE-30: cygri proposes "Named Graphs in SPARQL “loosely associate” IRIs and graphs. They do not “name” graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs."

09:06:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-30 How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-30 How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? notes added

09:07:12 <danbri> i tried ' each of which being useful and compliant' instead of 'loosly' (above)

Dan Brickley: i tried ' each of which being useful and compliant' instead of 'loosly' (above)

09:07:23 <sandro> "are simple associations"

Sandro Hawke: "are simple associations"

09:07:35 <AZ>  Maybe: "Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not “name” graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs."

Antoine Zimmermann: Maybe: "Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not “name” graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs."

09:07:42 <FabGandon>   PatH: don't like the word "loosely" prefer : temporary

PatH: don't like the word "loosely" prefer : temporary

09:08:14 <sandro> PROPOSED: Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not “name” graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not necessarily establish graphs as referents of IRIs

PROPOSED: Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not “name” graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not necessarily establish graphs as referents of IRIs

09:08:35 <AZ> I would not put the necessarily there

Antoine Zimmermann: I would not put the necessarily there

09:08:51 <mischat> SteveH: sparql uses the verb "graph" to talk about arbitrary graphs and the "named graphs" for graphs which which can be fetched via http, or is that just my pov?

Steve Harris: sparql uses the verb "graph" to talk about arbitrary graphs and the "named graphs" for graphs which which can be fetched via http, or is that just my pov? [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ]

09:09:03 <sandro> PROPOSED: Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not necessarily "name" graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs

PROPOSED: Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not necessarily "name" graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs

09:09:10 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

09:09:14 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

09:09:15 <cygri> +1 sandro

Richard Cyganiak: +1 sandro

09:09:16 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

09:09:16 <mbrunati> +1

Matteo Brunati: +1

09:09:20 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

09:09:23 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

09:09:24 <cmatheus> +1

Christopher Matheus: +1

09:09:26 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

09:09:27 <danbri> +1

Dan Brickley: +1

09:09:32 <zwu2> +0

Zhe Wu: +0

09:09:33 <NickH> +1

Nicholas Humfrey: +1

09:09:38 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

09:09:51 <mischat> +1

Mischa Tuffield: +1

09:10:04 <mischat> any objections for this being added as a note to issue-30 ?

Mischa Tuffield: any objections for this being added as a note to ISSUE-30 ?

09:10:04 <FabGandon>  ISSUE-30: Proposed WG position : Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not necessarily “name” graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs.

ISSUE-30: Proposed WG position : Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not necessarily “name” graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs.

09:10:04 <trackbot> ISSUE-30 How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-30 How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? notes added

09:10:07 <sandro> RESOLVED: Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not necessarily "name" graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs (relevant to ISSUE-30)

RESOLVED: Named Graphs in SPARQL associate IRIs and graphs *but* they do not necessarily "name" graphs in the strict model-theoretic sense. A SPARQL Dataset does not establish graphs as referents of IRIs (relevant to ISSUE-30)

09:10:31 <cygri> ISSUE-15?

Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-15?

09:10:31 <FabGandon> subtopic: link between the name and the triples of the graph.
09:10:31 <trackbot> ISSUE-15 -- What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-15 -- What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc -- open

09:10:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15

09:10:56 <PatH> +1 also my vote

Patrick Hayes: +1 also my vote

09:11:11 <FabGandon> davidwood: moving to ISSUE 15 ; let's try to rephrase it.

David Wood: moving to ISSUE-15 ; let's try to rephrase it.

09:11:41 <AZ> AZ: isn't it implicitly asking "how" one can associate a URI to a g-* ?

Antoine Zimmermann: isn't it implicitly asking "how" one can associate a URI to a g-* ? [ Scribe Assist by Antoine Zimmermann ]

09:12:00 <PatH> propose, uri always refers to g-box, but some boxes are immutable.

Patrick Hayes: propose, uri always refers to g-box, but some boxes are immutable.

09:12:12 <pgroth> agree with pat

Paul Groth: agree with pat

09:12:16 <FabGandon> sandro: g-boxes, g-snap, g-text could be named

Sandro Hawke: g-boxes, g-snap, g-text could be named

09:12:48 <PatH> because a snap is always a state (of a box) rather than a resource in its own right.

Patrick Hayes: because a snap is always a state (of a box) rather than a resource in its own right.

09:12:48 <FabGandon> ivan: can we have a predicate to say this IRI identifies this g-box ?

Ivan Herman: can we have a predicate to say this IRI identifies this g-box ?

09:13:15 <pgroth> although i need to refer to a g-snap

Paul Groth: although i need to refer to a g-snap

09:13:51 <pchampin> PatH: can't a number have a URI ??

Patrick Hayes: can't a number have a URI ?? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ]

09:14:06 <FabGandon> pgroth: would that prevent you to refer to a particular state of a box ?

Paul Groth: would that prevent you to refer to a particular state of a box ?

09:14:22 <PatH> dont think it can be done just using a predicate unless we endow that predicate with spoecial semantic force.

Patrick Hayes: dont think it can be done just using a predicate unless we endow that predicate with spoecial semantic force.

09:14:37 <danbri> (around foaf/webid/foaf+ssl and so on, we'll start seeing people identifying concrete sets of well known triples by hash of their encoding, eg. the triples W3C served for the RDF ns for the last 5 years)

Dan Brickley: (around foaf/webid/foaf+ssl and so on, we'll start seeing people identifying concrete sets of well known triples by hash of their encoding, eg. the triples W3C served for the RDF ns for the last 5 years)

09:15:00 <FabGandon> ivan: the snap vs. box is exactly about mutability

Ivan Herman: the snap vs. box is exactly about mutability

09:15:03 <pchampin> PatH??: <someuri> owl:sameas 42

Pierre-Antoine Champin: PatH??: <someuri> owl:sameas 42

09:15:57 <PatH> sure, that is ok, but states are transient.

Patrick Hayes: sure, that is ok, but states are transient.

09:16:28 <FabGandon> davidwood: if a g-box is a resource than we can talk about it.

David Wood: if a g-box is a resource than we can talk about it.

09:16:49 <sandro> q+ to say the difference

Sandro Hawke: q+ to say the difference

09:16:59 <FabGandon> pgroth: so what is a snap then if not an immutable box ?

Paul Groth: so what is a snap then if not an immutable box ?

09:17:29 <FabGandon> sandro: another difference is equality.

Sandro Hawke: another difference is equality.

09:17:45 <gavinc> The NAME is not part of the g-snap

Gavin Carothers: The NAME is not part of the g-snap

09:17:54 <danbri> sandro, does that work ok w/ bnodes? do we have samegraphness defined adequately for graphs w/ bnodes?

Dan Brickley: sandro, does that work ok w/ bnodes? do we have samegraphness defined adequately for graphs w/ bnodes?

09:18:14 <FabGandon> davidwood: two g-snaps may have the same content and still be different snaps.

David Wood: two g-snaps may have the same content and still be different snaps.

09:18:27 <FabGandon> ... we haven't decided on that yet.

... we haven't decided on that yet.

09:18:50 <sandro> danbri, yes, but you also have to allow bnodes to be shared between graphs.

Sandro Hawke: danbri, yes, but you also have to allow bnodes to be shared between graphs.

09:18:51 <FabGandon> ... it depends on how we resolve issue 15

... it depends on how we resolve ISSUE-15

09:18:53 <SteveH> q+ to ask Sandro about why two g-boxes can't be equal [unless I got the wrong end of the stick]

Steve Harris: q+ to ask Sandro about why two g-boxes can't be equal [unless I got the wrong end of the stick]

09:19:16 <gavinc> ... I don't think g-snaps had names?

Gavin Carothers: ... I don't think g-snaps had names?

09:19:42 <PatH> stephen, two anythings cannot be equal.

Patrick Hayes: stephen, two anythings cannot be equal.

09:19:54 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

09:19:54 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say the difference

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to say the difference

09:19:55 <sandro> ack sandro

Sandro Hawke: ack sandro

09:19:57 <ivan> ack sandro

Ivan Herman: ack sandro

09:19:58 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

09:20:03 <danbri> (sandro, eg. if there is an rdf/xml file bundled with Jena that is packaged old version of DC schema; and the similar-but-different triples we get from a DCMI namespace URI fetch ... )

Dan Brickley: (sandro, eg. if there is an rdf/xml file bundled with Jena that is packaged old version of DC schema; and the similar-but-different triples we get from a DCMI namespace URI fetch ... )

09:20:10 <FabGandon> subtopic: REST and named graphs.

1.4. REST and named graphs.

09:20:39 <FabGandon> PatH: The guiding abstraction should be the REST model

Patrick Hayes: The guiding abstraction should be the REST model

09:21:54 <FabGandon> davidwood: reprensentations are not resources by default

David Wood: reprensentations are not resources by default

09:22:04 <davidwood> ack pchampin

David Wood: ack pchampin

09:22:08 <ivan> ack PatH

Ivan Herman: ack PatH

09:22:13 <sandro> it's the g-text that's the representation, not the g-snap.

Sandro Hawke: it's the g-text that's the representation, not the g-snap.

09:22:29 <FabGandon> sandro: the representation is the g-text, a string

Sandro Hawke: the representation is the g-text, a string

09:22:33 <danbri> PatH, does "is not a resource" there mean "not a Web/http resource" rather than "is not a resource-considered-as-synonym-for-thing"?

Dan Brickley: PatH, does "is not a resource" there mean "not a Web/http resource" rather than "is not a resource-considered-as-synonym-for-thing"?

09:22:46 <danbri> (if you can channel for timbl...)

Dan Brickley: (if you can channel for timbl...)

09:22:46 <FabGandon> pchampin: the g-snap is the state of the resource

Pierre-Antoine Champin: the g-snap is the state of the resource

09:22:51 <yvesr> g-box - resource ; g-snap - state ; g-text : representation

Yves Raimond: g-box - resource ; g-snap - state ; g-text : representation

09:22:58 <pgroth> g-box = resource, g-snap = content negotiation, g-text = state serlization

Paul Groth: g-box = resource, g-snap = content negotiation, g-text = state serlization

09:22:58 <PatH> sorry, sandro is right. but the snap is an abstraction/parsing of the text.

Patrick Hayes: sorry, sandro is right. but the snap is an abstraction/parsing of the text.

09:23:01 <mischat> g-snap is information resource at time T ?

Mischa Tuffield: g-snap is information resource at time T ?

09:23:10 <davidwood> ack pgroth

David Wood: ack pgroth

09:23:15 <ivan> ack pgroth

Ivan Herman: ack pgroth

09:23:30 <PatH> and so is similarly unidentifiable.

Patrick Hayes: and so is similarly unidentifiable.

09:23:36 <JFB>  g-snap: state of the resource or state of the representation ?

Jean-François Baget: g-snap: state of the resource or state of the representation ?

09:23:48 <PatH> yes, sandro is right.

Patrick Hayes: yes, sandro is right.

09:23:54 <yvesr> pgroth: i don't agree - g-snap != content-negotiation

Yves Raimond: pgroth, i don't agree - g-snap != content-negotiation

09:23:54 <pchampin> @JFB: state of the resource

Pierre-Antoine Champin: @JFB: state of the resource

09:24:06 <yvesr> s/pgroth:/pgroth,/
09:24:17 <FabGandon> cygri: you can't talk about the representation.

Richard Cyganiak: you can't talk about the representation.

09:24:49 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

09:24:56 <PatH> danbri, i want those to be the same sense of resource

Patrick Hayes: danbri, i want those to be the same sense of resource

09:25:15 <FabGandon> davidwood: a representation is not a resource but with an additional step you can choose to make an identifier for that representation and talk about it.

David Wood: a representation is not a resource but with an additional step you can choose to make an identifier for that representation and talk about it.

09:25:28 <pchampin>  data: URIs ?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: data: URIs ?

09:25:34 <pchampin> I mean "data colon URIs"

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I mean "data colon URIs"

09:25:38 <davidwood> ack SteveH

David Wood: ack SteveH

09:25:38 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to ask Sandro about why two g-boxes can't be equal [unless I got the wrong end of the stick]

Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to ask Sandro about why two g-boxes can't be equal [unless I got the wrong end of the stick]

09:27:18 <sandro> sandro: Two g-boxes remain distinct even though their contents/state might happen to be the same at some point in time.

Sandro Hawke: Two g-boxes remain distinct even though their contents/state might happen to be the same at some point in time. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:27:42 <FabGandon> q?

q?

09:27:51 <PatH> sandro, sorry to introduce extra confusion.

Patrick Hayes: sandro, sorry to introduce extra confusion.

09:28:33 <PatH> +1 to pfps

Patrick Hayes: +1 to pfps

09:28:37 <sandro> q+ to talk about use cases

Sandro Hawke: q+ to talk about use cases

09:28:54 <FabGandon> pfps: We could say we don’t change the semantics, Quads are syntax

Peter Patel-Schneider: We could say we don’t change the semantics, Quads are syntax

09:29:34 <mischat> i like the idea that RDF semantics not changing, and using quads as syntax, +1 to pfps

Mischa Tuffield: i like the idea that RDF semantics not changing, and using quads as syntax, +1 to pfps

09:29:44 <PatH> i think there are now also quints, sexts, etc..

Patrick Hayes: i think there are now also quints, sexts, etc..

09:29:45 <danbri> I can't understand how the same meeting can, 30 mins ago, accept resources=all things in the universe, yet 5 mins ago, deny that the stuff you get back from an HTTP request is a resource. Ug.

Dan Brickley: I can't understand how the same meeting can, 30 mins ago, accept resources=all things in the universe, yet 5 mins ago, deny that the stuff you get back from an HTTP request is a resource. Ug.

09:30:01 <sandro> pchampin, you're right, I think, that data: URIs give us identifiers for representations / g-texts.

Sandro Hawke: pchampin, you're right, I think, that data: URIs give us identifiers for representations / g-texts.

09:30:25 <danbri> (even without handy URIs they're still things and therefore Resources in rdfsemantics sense)

Dan Brickley: (even without handy URIs they're still things and therefore Resources in rdfsemantics sense)

09:30:27 <FabGandon>   ... RDF semantics defines the meaning of the underlying data structure but not augmented with a semantics for datasets.

... RDF semantics defines the meaning of the underlying data structure but not augmented with a semantics for datasets.

09:30:48 <sandro> danbri, we didn't agree with that -- it was just claimed and ignored.  :-)

Sandro Hawke: danbri, we didn't agree with that -- it was just claimed and ignored. :-)

09:31:47 <pfps> so, after all the stuff that I said, I still remain agnostic as to which direction to go

Peter Patel-Schneider: so, after all the stuff that I said, I still remain agnostic as to which direction to go

09:32:00 <FabGandon> subtopic: defining Graph primitives in RDF semantics.

1.5. defining Graph primitives in RDF semantics.

09:32:34 <FabGandon> ivan: if we have predicates to link IRI and g-* we need to define them in the RDF semantics

Ivan Herman: if we have predicates to link IRI and g-* we need to define them in the RDF semantics

09:33:14 <PatH> yes, we do. so the semantics will have to deal with the *-ideas.

Patrick Hayes: yes, we do. so the semantics will have to deal with the *-ideas.

09:33:36 <PatH> yes, exactly.

Patrick Hayes: yes, exactly.

09:33:47 <FabGandon> pfps: if you want to talk about this inside the RDF voc you have to define it in the RDF semantics indeed.

Peter Patel-Schneider: if you want to talk about this inside the RDF voc you have to define it in the RDF semantics indeed.

09:33:59 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

09:34:06 <pfps> from an OWL perspective, the "don't change the semantics view" is very seductive

Peter Patel-Schneider: from an OWL perspective, the "don't change the semantics view" is very seductive

09:34:25 <SteveH> also from the DB implementors view

Steve Harris: also from the DB implementors view

09:34:42 <PatH> extend does not imply change, hoever.

Patrick Hayes: extend does not imply change, hoever.

09:34:45 <sandro> ISSUE: Should there be an rdf:Graph construct, or something like that?

ISSUE: Should there be an rdf:Graph construct, or something like that?

09:34:46 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-35 - Should there be an rdf:Graph construct, or something like that? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/35/edit .

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-35 - Should there be an rdf:Graph construct, or something like that? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/35/edit .

09:34:46 <FabGandon> Guus: should there be an rdf:Graph primitive ?

Guus Schreiber: should there be an rdf:Graph primitive ?

09:35:00 <sandro> (from Guus and David -- I don't understand the question.)

Sandro Hawke: (from Guus and David -- I don't understand the question.)

09:35:23 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about use cases

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about use cases

09:35:40 <FabGandon> pfps: if g-boxes just want to have fun they need to be in the semantics.

Peter Patel-Schneider: if g-boxes just want to have fun they need to be in the semantics.

09:37:06 <FabGandon> sandro: one of the scenarios is "annotating graphs" e.g. be able to select a part of graph state things about it.

Sandro Hawke: one of the scenarios is "annotating graphs" e.g. be able to select a part of graph state things about it.

09:38:26 <FabGandon> pchampin: we need a vocabulary for the g-* e.g. just to be about to talk about them when we load them.

Pierre-Antoine Champin: we need a vocabulary for the g-* e.g. just to be about to talk about them when we load them.

09:39:44 <FabGandon> PatH: if the notion of g-box is important then the semantics has to clarify that notion it does not need to be a revolution.

Patrick Hayes: if the notion of g-box is important then the semantics has to clarify that notion it does not need to be a revolution.

09:39:50 <FabGandon> subtopic: REST and Named graphs (bis).

1.6. REST and Named graphs (bis).

09:39:52 <pfps> perhaps, but by this same argument, the semantics should specify what happens when you go an HTTP get on a URL

Peter Patel-Schneider: perhaps, but by this same argument, the semantics should specify what happens when you go an HTTP get on a URL

09:40:07 <mischat> i am not sure about the adoption rate of '<> rdf:type rdf:Statement.' , do people even ever use them ...

Mischa Tuffield: i am not sure about the adoption rate of '<> rdf:type rdf:Statement.' , do people even ever use them ...

09:40:19 <PatH> not that bad, peter...

Patrick Hayes: not that bad, peter...

09:40:58 <sandro> PROPOSED: We aligned g-* with REST, where g-box=information resource, g-snap=state of the resource, g-text=representation of the state of the resource

PROPOSED: We aligned g-* with REST, where g-box=information resource, g-snap=state of the resource, g-text=representation of the state of the resource

09:41:07 <FabGandon> cygri: documenting the alignment with REST may be useful for us but not in the deliverables ; it is too complex and time-consuming.

Richard Cyganiak: documenting the alignment with REST may be useful for us but not in the deliverables ; it is too complex and time-consuming.

09:42:02 <FabGandon> ivan: would lead to endless discussions.

Ivan Herman: would lead to endless discussions.

09:42:18 <sandro> PROPOSED: We understand that g-* aligns with REST, with g-box=information resource, g-snap=state of the resource, g-text=representation of the state of the resource

PROPOSED: We understand that g-* aligns with REST, with g-box=information resource, g-snap=state of the resource, g-text=representation of the state of the resource

09:42:53 <pchampin>  NB: a predicate would not state the relation between a URI and a graph, but between a resource (identified by a URI) and a graph

Pierre-Antoine Champin: NB: a predicate would not state the relation between a URI and a graph, but between a resource (identified by a URI) and a graph

09:43:22 <PatH> i think we will be doing the world a disservice if we leave ambiguity and confusion. That is what the last RDF WG did, but there is a decade of practice now to guide us.

Patrick Hayes: i think we will be doing the world a disservice if we leave ambiguity and confusion. That is what the last RDF WG did, but there is a decade of practice now to guide us.

09:43:33 <mischat> sandro, perhaps s/state of the resource/state of the resource at time t/

Mischa Tuffield: sandro, perhaps s/state of the resource/state of the resource at time t/

09:43:35 <pfps> do we have a failrly coherent document that describes REST?

Peter Patel-Schneider: do we have a failrly coherent document that describes REST?

09:43:58 <sandro> PROPOSED: We understand that g-* aligns with REST, with g-box=information resource, g-snap=state of the resource (at time t), g-text=representation of the state of the resource (at time t)

PROPOSED: We understand that g-* aligns with REST, with g-box=information resource, g-snap=state of the resource (at time t), g-text=representation of the state of the resource (at time t)

09:44:03 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

09:44:03 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

09:44:21 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

09:44:22 <pfps>  NB:  I do understand that coherency is rather absent in the REST universe.

Peter Patel-Schneider: NB: I do understand that coherency is rather absent in the REST universe.

09:44:24 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

09:44:26 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

09:44:30 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

09:44:31 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

09:44:33 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

09:44:36 <danbri> -1

Dan Brickley: -1

09:44:40 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

09:44:51 <JFB> +1

Jean-François Baget: +1

09:44:57 <mbrunati> +1

Matteo Brunati: +1

09:45:06 <ivan> 0

Ivan Herman: 0

09:45:14 <sandro> (clarify -- this is only for the subset of IRs that can be respresented in RDF.)

Sandro Hawke: (clarify -- this is only for the subset of IRs that can be respresented in RDF.)

09:45:18 <pfps> +.5 as I'm not exactly sure just what REST is

Peter Patel-Schneider: +.5 as I'm not exactly sure just what REST is

09:45:24 <JFB> @AZ yes, found that surprising

Jean-François Baget: @AZ yes, found that surprising

09:45:24 <PatH> az, that will teach you to make lumpy custard.

Patrick Hayes: az, that will teach you to make lumpy custard.

09:45:46 <Zakim> +AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ

09:46:02 <NickH> +1 (but agree that REST isn't very well specified)

Nicholas Humfrey: +1 (but agree that REST isn't very well specified)

09:46:09 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

09:46:12 <FabGandon> danbri: some environments don’t have a notion of REST.

Dan Brickley: some environments don’t have a notion of REST.

09:46:13 <pchampin> -1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: -1

09:46:43 <FabGandon> Guus: we are only considering the notions behind REST.

Guus Schreiber: we are only considering the notions behind REST.

09:46:57 <danbri> REST is good, but it doesn't seem a 1:1 relationship to me

Dan Brickley: REST is good, but it doesn't seem a 1:1 relationship to me

09:47:07 <sandro> pchampin: my concern is that we might be missing some more complicated resources whose state is not represented by a graph, because it's not just time.

Pierre-Antoine Champin: my concern is that we might be missing some more complicated resources whose state is not represented by a graph, because it's not just time. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:47:16 <SteveH> +1 to danbri, but I don't think it detracts from the analogy

Steve Harris: +1 to danbri, but I don't think it detracts from the analogy

09:47:19 <PatH> seems to me that if its not related to restthen I dont know why we even have these distinctions ourselves.

Patrick Hayes: seems to me that if its not related to restthen I dont know why we even have these distinctions ourselves.

09:47:21 <pchampin> e.g. authentication, etc

Pierre-Antoine Champin: e.g. authentication, etc

09:47:33 <SteveH> pchampin, right, or cookies for e.g.

Steve Harris: pchampin, right, or cookies for e.g.

09:47:34 <cygri> good point pchampin. language negotiation etc

Richard Cyganiak: good point pchampin. language negotiation etc

09:47:43 <danbri> maybe i'm pulling Web-derrived data from a local Lucene store; from Mahout clustering, or prolog, doing stuff in code and stuffing bits into graphs with URI tags. REST is in the environment but the data flow is much more complex than fetch'n'store

Dan Brickley: maybe i'm pulling Web-derrived data from a local Lucene store; from Mahout clustering, or prolog, doing stuff in code and stuffing bits into graphs with URI tags. REST is in the environment but the data flow is much more complex than fetch'n'store

09:47:46 <pchampin> yes, this too

Pierre-Antoine Champin: yes, this too

09:48:02 <sandro> guus: two groups;  (1) json, (2) skolemization

Guus Schreiber: two groups; (1) json, (2) skolemization [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:48:13 <tomayac> json += tomayac

Thomas Steiner: json += tomayac

09:48:19 <PatH> will skolem have a phone link?

Patrick Hayes: will skolem have a phone link?

09:48:39 <FabGandon>  ISSUE-15: Text to be further discussed : "We understand that g-* aligns with REST, with g-box=information resource, g-snap=state of the resource (at time t), g-text=representation of the state of the resource (at time t)"

ISSUE-15: Text to be further discussed : "We understand that g-* aligns with REST, with g-box=information resource, g-snap=state of the resource (at time t), g-text=representation of the state of the resource (at time t)"

09:48:39 <trackbot> ISSUE-15 What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-15 What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc notes added

09:48:44 <danbri> SteveH, sure, considered as an analogy it can be instructive (and in fact I'm trying to extend REST concepts a bit more into XMPP message types)

Dan Brickley: SteveH, sure, considered as an analogy it can be instructive (and in fact I'm trying to extend REST concepts a bit more into XMPP message types)

10:09:29 <pfps> Topic: skolemization (whatever that is!)

(No events recorded for 20 minutes)

2. skolemization (whatever that is!)

10:09:36 <tomayac> is there a dial-in no. for json?

Thomas Steiner: is there a dial-in no. for json?

10:09:49 <pfps> no dialin for json yet

Peter Patel-Schneider: no dialin for json yet

10:09:56 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

10:10:00 <pfps> and there won't be one

Peter Patel-Schneider: and there won't be one

10:10:02 <sandro> no dialin for json ever, sorry.

Sandro Hawke: no dialin for json ever, sorry.

10:10:05 <davidwood> zakim, who is on the phone?

David Wood: zakim, who is on the phone?

10:10:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, tomayac, gavinc, AZ, zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, tomayac, gavinc, AZ, zwu2

10:10:09 <zwu2> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

10:10:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted

10:10:40 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

10:10:52 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

10:10:52 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

10:11:02 <mischat> tomayac: do you want to be dialled in ?

Thomas Steiner: do you want to be dialled in ? [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ]

10:11:12 <yvesr> scribe: yvesr

(Scribe set to Yves Raimond)

10:11:12 <danbri> so - what are we skolemising and why?

Dan Brickley: so - what are we skolemising and why?

10:11:19 <mischat> do JSON people want to call in

Mischa Tuffield: do JSON people want to call in

10:11:20 <sandro> topic: Skolemization Breakout

3. Skolemization Breakout

10:11:21 <pgroth> the skolemization has taken over this chat room

Paul Groth: the skolemization has taken over this chat room

10:11:27 <pfps> The problem, as I see it, is that RDF stores hold blank nodes, but they have problems sending identifiers for these blank nodes out in response to queries and getting them back.

Peter Patel-Schneider: The problem, as I see it, is that RDF stores hold blank nodes, but they have problems sending identifiers for these blank nodes out in response to queries and getting them back.

10:11:29 <mischat> yeah we are about to set up a voice thing

Mischa Tuffield: yeah we are about to set up a voice thing

10:11:31 <mischat> i sec

Mischa Tuffield: i sec

10:11:40 <yvesr> SteveH: long-standing issue in the way bnodes are defined

Steve Harris: long-standing issue in the way bnodes are defined

10:11:49 <yvesr> SteveH: close-enough to existential variables in rdf

Steve Harris: close-enough to existential variables in rdf

10:12:02 <yvesr> SteveH: most implementations turn it into an internal identifier

Steve Harris: most implementations turn it into an internal identifier

10:12:05 <sandro> SteveH: I have a longstanding issue who how bnodes are defined, as existential variables.  But the reality is that all the triplestores turn it into an internal identifier.

Steve Harris: I have a longstanding issue who how bnodes are defined, as existential variables. But the reality is that all the triplestores turn it into an internal identifier. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:12:13 <yvesr> SteveH: turning them into 'skolems'

Steve Harris: turning them into 'skolems'

10:12:21 <cygri> (JSON breakout is happening over in the #rdf-json channel)

Richard Cyganiak: (JSON breakout is happening over in the #rdf-json channel)

10:12:46 <sandro> pfps: So far, they havent' done anything wrong.

Peter Patel-Schneider: So far, they havent' done anything wrong. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:13:09 <Zakim> -tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac

10:13:13 <yvesr> SteveH: 2 problems - 1) bnodes in the wild (when there shouldn't be) and 2) people deliberately writing them (i.e. FOAF)

Steve Harris: 2 problems - 1) bnodes in the wild (when there shouldn't be) and 2) people deliberately writing them (i.e. FOAF)

10:13:27 <danbri> q+ to account for the foaf case

Dan Brickley: q+ to account for the foaf case

10:13:42 <PatH> there is also a strong deprtecation of bnode use in the linked data community.

Patrick Hayes: there is also a strong deprtecation of bnode use in the linked data community.

10:13:44 <sandro> SteveH: But sometimes you encounter bnodes in the wild, where it would be nice to have URIs, as in foaf.   In practice it's annoying.

Steve Harris: But sometimes you encounter bnodes in the wild, where it would be nice to have URIs, as in foaf. In practice it's annoying. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:13:46 <yvesr> SteveH: in FOAF, you end up using inverse functional properties to identify individuals

Steve Harris: in FOAF, you end up using inverse functional properties to identify individuals

10:13:54 <davidwood> Zakim, open the queue

David Wood: Zakim, open the queue

10:13:54 <Zakim> ok, davidwood, the speaker queue is open

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, davidwood, the speaker queue is open

10:14:09 <danbri> q+ to account for the foaf case

Dan Brickley: q+ to account for the foaf case

10:14:24 <sandro> q+ to present proposal

Sandro Hawke: q+ to present proposal

10:14:43 <yvesr> SteveH: People are missing a feature from relational databases (not assigning an explicit primary key)

Steve Harris: People are missing a feature from relational databases (not assigning an explicit primary key)

10:15:03 <yvesr> SteveH: some triple stores have internal uri schems to talk about bnodes

Steve Harris: some triple stores have internal uri schems to talk about bnodes

10:15:12 <sandro> SteveH: Folks also have internal URI schemes for talking about bnodes.   People really want this for SPARQL round-tripping.

Steve Harris: Folks also have internal URI schemes for talking about bnodes. People really want this for SPARQL round-tripping. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:15:14 <davidwood> ack danbri

David Wood: ack danbri

10:15:14 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to account for the foaf case

Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to account for the foaf case

10:15:15 <yvesr> SteveH: those can surface in query results - and can be used in queries

Steve Harris: those can surface in query results - and can be used in queries

10:15:18 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

10:15:28 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

10:15:38 <pfps> q+ to say that such RDF stores aren't really doing anything 'wrong'

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+ to say that such RDF stores aren't really doing anything 'wrong'

10:15:48 <yvesr> danbri: There's a reason for the FOAF choice - leading to anonymous resources

Dan Brickley: There's a reason for the FOAF choice - leading to anonymous resources

10:16:02 <yvesr> danbri: no owl:sameAs, not clear what to do with resources

Dan Brickley: no owl:sameAs, not clear what to do with resources

10:16:19 <yvesr> danbri: identifying people with properties was a pragmatic decision

Dan Brickley: identifying people with properties was a pragmatic decision

10:16:44 <yvesr> davidwood: how would you do it today?

David Wood: how would you do it today?

10:17:07 <yvesr> danbri: if you were in a position to assign uris for other people, then FOAF would have gone for URIs

Dan Brickley: if you were in a position to assign uris for other people, then FOAF would have gone for URIs

10:17:24 <yvesr> danbri: bnodes are a pain to deal with...

Dan Brickley: bnodes are a pain to deal with...

10:17:44 <yvesr> q+

q+

10:18:01 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

10:18:01 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to present proposal

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to present proposal

10:18:01 <ivan> ack sandro

Ivan Herman: ack sandro

10:18:06 <sandro> steveH: The assigned URIs leak out of query interface, which is what makes them useful.

Steve Harris: The assigned URIs leak out of query interface, which is what makes them useful. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:18:31 <danbri> original statement of the foafy smushing stuff: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200012/msg00597.html

Dan Brickley: original statement of the foafy smushing stuff: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200012/msg00597.html

10:18:44 <yvesr> sandro: Long discussion on the semantic-web list a couple of weeks ago - a proposal was done that adress everyone's requeirements

Sandro Hawke: Long discussion on the semantic-web list a couple of weeks ago - a proposal was done that adress everyone's requeirements

10:19:09 <yvesr> sandro: pick one of two uri pattern  choices to skolemize bnodes

Sandro Hawke: pick one of two uri pattern choices to skolemize bnodes

10:19:29 <yvesr> sandro: http://... if you want to dereference, or tag:...

Sandro Hawke: http://... if you want to dereference, or tag:...

10:20:03 <yvesr> sandro: if you encounter one of those uris, it's machine generated

Sandro Hawke: if you encounter one of those uris, it's machine generated

10:20:17 <yvesr> sandro: those uris can be considered as disposable

Sandro Hawke: those uris can be considered as disposable

10:20:19 <danbri> so the first dozen or so FOAF files used genid: as a URI scheme, eg. http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/allfactoids/copies/danbri/danbri-foaf.rdf ...  about="genid:poulter" etc

Dan Brickley: so the first dozen or so FOAF files used genid: as a URI scheme, eg. http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/allfactoids/copies/danbri/danbri-foaf.rdf ... about="genid:poulter" etc

10:21:00 <FabGandon> yvesr: how do you know they are machine generated?

Yves Raimond: how do you know they are machine generated? [ Scribe Assist by Fabien Gandon ]

10:21:13 <PatH> it is always valid to 'deskolemize', so we dont need to say anything about that.

Patrick Hayes: it is always valid to 'deskolemize', so we dont need to say anything about that.

10:21:20 <FabGandon> SteveH: because they have genid

Steve Harris: because they have genid [ Scribe Assist by Fabien Gandon ]

10:21:39 <yvesr> danbri: reserved uri pattern - genid in the uri means that it is machine generated

Dan Brickley: reserved uri pattern - genid in the uri means that it is machine generated

10:21:42 <sandro> 1.  If you're going to Skolemize, use a URI like this:

Sandro Hawke: 1. If you're going to Skolemize, use a URI like this:

10:21:42 <sandro>    - http://example.org/.well-known/genid/[whatever]

Sandro Hawke: - http://example.org/.well-known/genid/[whatever]

10:21:42 <sandro>    - tag:example.org,2011/.well-known/genid/[whatever]

Sandro Hawke: - tag:example.org,2011/.well-known/genid/[whatever]

10:21:42 <sandro> 2.  If you encounter one of these URIs:

Sandro Hawke: 2. If you encounter one of these URIs:

10:21:42 <sandro>

Sandro Hawke:

10:21:43 <sandro>    - you know it's machine generated

Sandro Hawke: - you know it's machine generated

10:21:45 <sandro>    - consider it more disposable, more mergeable

Sandro Hawke: - consider it more disposable, more mergeable

10:22:08 <PatH> +1 to speaker. genid is better.

Patrick Hayes: +1 to stevenh. genid is better.

10:22:11 <gavinc>  eg: generate-id() in XPath/XSLT

Gavin Carothers: eg: generate-id() in XPath/XSLT

10:22:12 <sandro> We mean LITERALLY the string "genid".

Sandro Hawke: We mean LITERALLY the string "genid".

10:22:13 <yvesr> SteveH: Prefers genid over bnodes

Steve Harris: Prefers genid over bnodes

10:22:40 <PatH> s/speaker/stevenh
10:22:43 <yvesr> SteveH: you might want to use "genids" to identify graphs

Steve Harris: you might want to use "genids" to identify graphs

10:22:51 <davidwood> ?

David Wood: ?

10:22:53 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

10:22:57 <yvesr> sandro: Use "genid" or "gensym"?

Sandro Hawke: Use "genid" or "gensym"?

10:23:00 <davidwood> ack pfps

David Wood: ack pfps

10:23:00 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to say that such RDF stores aren't really doing anything 'wrong'

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps, you wanted to say that such RDF stores aren't really doing anything 'wrong'

10:23:05 <ivan> ack pfps

Ivan Herman: ack pfps

10:23:49 <davidwood> q+ to mention the use of made-up ids as a pattern to replace bnodes

David Wood: q+ to mention the use of made-up ids as a pattern to replace bnodes

10:24:07 <yvesr> JFB: bnodes are stronger - they can never be used in another graph

Jean-François Baget: bnodes are stronger - they can never be used in another graph

10:24:18 <yvesr> SteveH: this is already dropped in sparql-update

Steve Harris: this is already dropped in sparql-update

10:24:53 <yvesr> pfps: Technically, it is not a valid entailment

Peter Patel-Schneider: Technically, it is not a valid entailment

10:25:24 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

10:25:35 <danbri> related prev discussion: sergey melnik tried to create a canonical URIs for bnode/anon resources - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/1999Dec/0046.html

Dan Brickley: related prev discussion: sergey melnik tried to create a canonical URIs for bnode/anon resources - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/1999Dec/0046.html

10:25:59 <sandro> pfps: As long as these are fresh, you wont get any incorrect inferences.

Peter Patel-Schneider: As long as these are fresh, you wont get any incorrect inferences. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:26:20 <yvesr> pfps: SPARQL-update validates the leaky bnodes, what this proposal says is that graph stores are able to make that transformation

Peter Patel-Schneider: SPARQL-update validates the leaky bnodes, what this proposal says is that graph stores are able to make that transformation

10:26:25 <sandro> pfps: This says an RDF store is entitled to change bnodes like this.

Peter Patel-Schneider: This says an RDF store is entitled to change bnodes like this. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:27:05 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

10:27:08 <sandro> pfps: "RDF graphs stores can, on their own recognisance, do this transformation"

Peter Patel-Schneider: "RDF graphs stores can, on their own recognisance, do this transformation" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:27:37 <yvesr> PatH: the fact that such uris can leak out is a good thing

Patrick Hayes: the fact that such uris can leak out is a good thing

10:27:51 <yvesr> PatH: We don't have to worry about leakage

Patrick Hayes: We don't have to worry about leakage

10:27:52 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

10:28:22 <davidwood> ack yvesr

David Wood: ack yvesr

10:28:51 <zwu2> cannot hear much

Zhe Wu: cannot hear much

10:28:55 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

10:28:55 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

10:29:19 <PatH> sound is very patchy.

Patrick Hayes: sound is very patchy.

10:29:25 <PatH> better

Patrick Hayes: better

10:31:07 <davidwood> ack davidwood

David Wood: ack davidwood

10:31:07 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to mention the use of made-up ids as a pattern to replace bnodes

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to mention the use of made-up ids as a pattern to replace bnodes

10:31:31 <yvesr> yvesr: RDFa creates lots of bnodes in the wild

Yves Raimond: RDFa creates lots of bnodes in the wild

10:31:56 <yvesr> yvesr: and sometimes there are things that you can't identify, or don't want to mint a URI for (e.g. transient things)

Yves Raimond: and sometimes there are things that you can't identify, or don't want to mint a URI for (e.g. transient things)

10:32:01 <danbri> ivan, in your homepage you have     <div id="container" about="http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf#me" typeof="foaf:Person dc:Agent">   .... that's the verbose aspect. But maybe you could use a relative URI at least?

Dan Brickley: ivan, in your homepage you have <div id="container" about="http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf#me" typeof="foaf:Person dc:Agent"> .... that's the verbose aspect. But maybe you could use a relative URI at least?

10:32:22 <yvesr> davidwood: I don't think there is soemthing wrong with bnodes, and it's fine to skolemize them

David Wood: I don't think there is something wrong with bnodes, and it's fine to skolemize them

10:32:37 <yvesr> s/soemthing/something/
10:33:04 <yvesr> davidwood: Machines should do the job, transparently

David Wood: Machines should do the job, transparently

10:33:40 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

10:33:45 <davidwood> ack ivan

David Wood: ack ivan

10:33:45 <sandro> q+ to draft proposal

Sandro Hawke: q+ to draft proposal

10:33:50 <yvesr> SteveH: what you want is a bnode syntax, not a bnode semantics

Steve Harris: what you want is a bnode syntax, not a bnode semantics

10:34:14 <yvesr> ivan: I can understand that a number of people would want to derefence these things

Ivan Herman: I can understand that a number of people would want to derefence these things

10:34:19 <PatH> sandro, type it.

Patrick Hayes: sandro, type it.

10:34:21 <yvesr> ivan: what happens when you derefence them?

Ivan Herman: what happens when you derefence them?

10:34:24 <sandro> PROPOSAL: It's okay for systems to Skolemize bnodes, replacing them with IRIs of the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id].  Such IRIs are considered more disposable.  Must be reg'd with IETF.

PROPOSED: It's okay for systems to Skolemize bnodes, replacing them with IRIs of the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id]. Such IRIs are considered more disposable. Must be reg'd with IETF.

10:34:33 <yvesr> ivan: what advice do you give, and how are people to set it up?

Ivan Herman: what advice do you give, and how are people to set it up?

10:34:57 <yvesr> ivan: the first uri pattern is an http:// uri, and needs to be dereferencable - what does it do?

Ivan Herman: the first uri pattern is an http:// uri, and needs to be dereferencable - what does it do?

10:34:58 <PatH> should be fine for these to give 404s.

Patrick Hayes: should be fine for these to give 404s.

10:35:03 <davidwood> SteveH: Yes, I want the usefulness of bnode semantics with a simple, automated bnode syntax assistance.

Steve Harris: Yes, I want the usefulness of bnode semantics with a simple, automated bnode syntax assistance. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

10:35:29 <yvesr> ivan: do we want to get this reflected in various syntaxes?

Ivan Herman: do we want to get this reflected in various syntaxes?

10:35:48 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

10:36:20 <yvesr> SteveH: what we would do in 4store would be to generate bnode skolems based on a prefix

Steve Harris: what we would do in 4store would be to generate bnode skolems based on a prefix

10:36:32 <yvesr> SteveH: prefix is defined in configuration

Steve Harris: prefix is defined in configuration

10:36:52 <yvesr> SteveH: accessible as any other identifier in the store

Steve Harris: accessible as any other identifier in the store

10:37:30 <yvesr> ivan: you're using your SPARQL engine as a tool - the W3C needs to provide a global mechanism for what happens when you derefence a http://...genid... uri

Ivan Herman: you're using your SPARQL engine as a tool - the W3C needs to provide a global mechanism for what happens when you derefence a http://...genid... uri

10:37:35 <PatH> sandro, if these are supposed to refer to non-information resources, then according to http-range-14, they ought to give a 303 redirect. Can they have a # ending to remove this requirement?

Patrick Hayes: sandro, if these are supposed to refer to non-information resources, then according to http-range-14, they ought to give a 303 redirect. Can they have a # ending to remove this requirement?

10:38:22 <yvesr> q+

q+

10:38:58 <yvesr> ivan: Linked Data people don't want to have bnodes in their graph

Ivan Herman: Linked Data people don't want to have bnodes in their graph

10:39:19 <yvesr> pfps: there's no way to make them happy

Peter Patel-Schneider: there's no way to make them happy

10:39:35 <yvesr> ivan: there is a way to set up a simple service somewhere that would do the job

Ivan Herman: there is a way to set up a simple service somewhere that would do the job

10:39:41 <sandro> PatH, how about if it's http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id]#

Sandro Hawke: PatH, how about if it's http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id]#

10:40:13 <PatH> fine with me, as long as doesnt require a 303 mechanism

Patrick Hayes: fine with me, as long as doesnt require a 303 mechanism

10:40:18 <davidwood> q+ to discuss broadness of skolemization (stores, validation, services, etc)

David Wood: q+ to discuss broadness of skolemization (stores, validation, services, etc)

10:40:23 <yvesr> SteveH: if you dereference a bnode, one thing you could do is to just say 'this is a bnode'

Steve Harris: if you dereference a bnode, one thing you could do is to just say 'this is a bnode'

10:40:42 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

10:40:42 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to draft proposal

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to draft proposal

10:40:56 <sandro> PROPOSAL: It's okay for systems to Skolemize bnodes, replacing them with IRIs of the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id]# or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id].  Such IRIs are considered more disposable.  Must be reg'd with IETF.

PROPOSED: It's okay for systems to Skolemize bnodes, replacing them with IRIs of the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id]# or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id]. Such IRIs are considered more disposable. Must be reg'd with IETF.

10:41:00 <danbri> q+ to express risk of single point of failure / keeping a bnode-description-service secure is nontrivial, costly work

Dan Brickley: q+ to express risk of single point of failure / keeping a bnode-description-service secure is nontrivial, costly work

10:41:38 <yvesr> sandro: the hash is to stay clear of httpRange-14

Sandro Hawke: the hash is to stay clear of httpRange-14

10:41:52 <gavinc> Annoyed but not strong/formal objection to using tag: --0?

Gavin Carothers: Annoyed but not strong/formal objection to using tag: --0?

10:41:58 <yvesr> sandro:

Sandro Hawke:

10:42:02 <PatH> +1 danbri, should not presume a service of any kind.

Patrick Hayes: +1 danbri, should not presume a service of any kind.

10:42:07 <yvesr> SteveH: i can think of lots of reasons not to do that

Steve Harris: i can think of lots of reasons not to do that

10:42:15 <sandro> gavinc, why does the tag bother you?   what would you prefer?

Sandro Hawke: gavinc, why does the tag bother you? what would you prefer?

10:42:40 <yvesr> davidwood: uri lookups cost time and money

David Wood: uri lookups cost time and money

10:42:50 <gavinc> tag was designed specificly for HUMAN generated uniqueness

Gavin Carothers: tag was designed specificly for HUMAN generated uniqueness

10:42:50 <davidwood> ack yvesr

David Wood: ack yvesr

10:43:04 <gavinc> q+

Gavin Carothers: q+

10:43:05 <danbri> (re bit.ly / tinyurl analogy, ... it's taking us a month of HTTP requests to bit.ly to expand otherwise mysterious shortlinks from a twitter crawl, ... they only allow 2 lookups / second ... single points of control worrying)

Dan Brickley: (re bit.ly / tinyurl analogy, ... it's taking us a month of HTTP requests to bit.ly to expand otherwise mysterious shortlinks from a twitter crawl, ... they only allow 2 lookups / second ... single points of control worrying)

10:44:22 <pchampin> shouldn't we  add "fresh IRI" in Sandro's proposal?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: shouldn't we add "fresh IRI" in Sandro's proposal?

10:44:41 <sandro> yvesr: I don't like Skolem ids leaking out.

Yves Raimond: I don't like Skolem ids leaking out. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:44:54 <danbri> LOD community have established the convention than any party can invent HTTP URIs freely, for anything and anyone; so why not just generate LOD URIs or uuid: URIs? I don't see this proposal adding value to those options

Dan Brickley: LOD community have established the convention than any party can invent HTTP URIs freely, for anything and anyone; so why not just generate LOD URIs or uuid: URIs? I don't see this proposal adding value to those options

10:44:56 <FabGandon> WRT the service approach, beyond the risk of single point of failure it is a point of centralization in the model and in general centralization is not good for web arch IMHO

Fabien Gandon: WRT the service approach, beyond the risk of single point of failure it is a point of centralization in the model and in general centralization is not good for web arch IMHO

10:44:58 <PatH> all specifically RDF uses dont require dereferencing. Seems like main purpose of these being recognizable is to AVOID dereferencing them.

Patrick Hayes: all specifically RDF uses dont require dereferencing. Seems like main purpose of these being recognizable is to AVOID dereferencing them.

10:45:37 <davidwood> ack gavinc

David Wood: ack gavinc

10:45:39 <zwu2> q+

Zhe Wu: q+

10:45:42 <ivan> ack gavinc

Ivan Herman: ack gavinc

10:45:45 <sandro> sandro: Maybe "*if* you're going to skolemize, you SHOULD use one of these two forms"

Sandro Hawke: Maybe "*if* you're going to skolemize, you SHOULD use one of these two forms" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:46:23 <PatH> disagree. should be free to skolemize any way you like, as long as it is 'frtesh'

Patrick Hayes: disagree. should be free to skolemize any way you like, as long as it is 'frtesh'

10:46:24 <yvesr> gavinc: seems very wrong to use tag uris

Gavin Carothers: seems very wrong to use tag uris

10:46:29 <PatH> fresh

Patrick Hayes: fresh

10:46:50 <yvesr> gavinc: is UUID terrible?

Gavin Carothers: is UUID terrible?

10:47:16 <yvesr> SteveH: minting a new UUID for all bnodes is not very affordable

Steve Harris: minting a new UUID for all bnodes is not very affordable

10:47:27 <yvesr> gavinc: we got rid of all bnodes at o'reilly because of that

Gavin Carothers: we got rid of all bnodes at o'reilly because of that

10:47:28 <davidwood> Sandro thinks yes, UUIDs doesn't allow you to use genie

David Wood: Sandro thinks yes, UUIDs doesn't allow you to use genid

10:47:40 <davidwood> s/genie/genid/
10:47:49 <yvesr> q?

q?

10:48:27 <yvesr> ivan: is it true that the tag: scheme says 'it is for humans'?

Ivan Herman: is it true that the tag: scheme says 'it is for humans'?

10:48:51 <yvesr> gavinc: the generation mechanism needs to happen by humans

Gavin Carothers: the generation mechanism needs to happen by humans

10:48:58 <davidwood> ack davidwood

David Wood: ack davidwood

10:48:58 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to discuss broadness of skolemization (stores, validation, services, etc)

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to discuss broadness of skolemization (stores, validation, services, etc)

10:49:11 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, unmute me

10:49:11 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should no longer be muted

10:49:25 <yvesr> davidwood: There is opportunity to use skolemisation in quite a lot of places, not only in stores

David Wood: There is opportunity to use skolemisation in quite a lot of places, not only in stores

10:49:50 <yvesr> davidwood: input, output, validation process, skolemization services

David Wood: input, output, validation process, skolemization services

10:49:52 <pchampin> q+ to talk about the fresh URIs and them leaking from the store

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+ to talk about the fresh URIs and them leaking from the store

10:50:14 <sandro> PROPOSAL: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, they SHOULD use URIs of the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id]# or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id].  Such IRIs are considered more disposable.  "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

PROPOSED: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, they SHOULD use URIs of the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id]# or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id]. Such IRIs are considered more disposable. "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

10:50:14 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

10:50:15 <yvesr> davidwood: if you're doing skolemization, you SHOULD do it in the way we're defining

David Wood: if you're doing skolemization, you SHOULD do it in the way we're defining

10:50:22 <danbri> ack danbri

Dan Brickley: ack danbri

10:50:22 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to express risk of single point of failure / keeping a bnode-description-service secure is nontrivial, costly work

Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to express risk of single point of failure / keeping a bnode-description-service secure is nontrivial, costly work

10:50:22 <davidwood> ack danbri

David Wood: ack danbri

10:50:35 <davidwood> zakim, close the queue

David Wood: zakim, close the queue

10:50:35 <Zakim> ok, davidwood, the speaker queue is closed

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, davidwood, the speaker queue is closed

10:50:44 <PatH> prposal. it is permissible to replace bnodes by URIs provided that the URIs are 'fresh', ie not used in any other rdf graph. It is recommended to include a string /genid/. one way is sandro's prposal.

Patrick Hayes: prposal. it is permissible to replace bnodes by URIs provided that the URIs are 'fresh', ie not used in any other rdf graph. It is recommended to include a string /genid/. one way is sandro's prposal.

10:50:59 <danbri> q-

Dan Brickley: q-

10:51:04 <yvesr> ivan: Would that effect any of the syntaxes, and how?

Ivan Herman: Would that effect any of the syntaxes, and how?

10:51:07 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

10:51:07 <yvesr> SteveH: it wouldn't

Steve Harris: it wouldn't

10:51:08 <danbri> I defer; question withdrawn

Dan Brickley: I defer; question withdrawn

10:51:15 <yvesr> SteveH: it wouldn't be the parser's job to do it

Steve Harris: it wouldn't be the parser's job to do it

10:51:22 <yvesr> SteveH: it doesn't have enough information

Steve Harris: it doesn't have enough information

10:51:33 <yvesr> ivan: for RDFa, it would make sense - and it might make sense for Turtle files too

Ivan Herman: for RDFa, it would make sense - and it might make sense for Turtle files too

10:51:49 <yvesr> ivan: many people use the square brackets - lazyness

Ivan Herman: many people use the square brackets - lazyness

10:51:50 <danbri> ( I assume args for the skolem function is not just the textual input, but also the base URI...)

Dan Brickley: ( I assume args for the skolem function is not just the textual input, but also the base URI...)

10:52:06 <yvesr> ivan: i should be able to tell the parser to mint me some URIs for those

Ivan Herman: i should be able to tell the parser to mint me some URIs for those

10:52:23 <sandro> PROPOSAL: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, they SHOULD use fresh URIs of the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id][#] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id].  Such IRIs are considered more disposable.  "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

PROPOSED: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, they SHOULD use fresh URIs of the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id][#] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id]. Such IRIs are considered more disposable. "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

10:52:24 <davidwood> +1 to PatH's proposal

David Wood: +1 to PatH's proposal

10:52:32 <davidwood> ack zwu

David Wood: ack zwu

10:52:39 <yvesr> SteveH: reverse transformation - output documents *with* bnodes

Steve Harris: reverse transformation - output documents *with* bnodes

10:53:08 <mischat_> Webr3 about?

Mischa Tuffield: Webr3 about?

10:53:12 <yvesr> zwu2: if you have one triple in a store, :john :friendOf _:a

Zhe Wu: if you have one triple in a store, :john :friendOf _:a

10:53:16 <PatH> steveh, it is always valid to 'deskolemize' with bnodes.

Patrick Hayes: steveh, it is always valid to 'deskolemize' with bnodes.

10:53:24 <yvesr> zwu2: you would get back a skolemized bnode

Zhe Wu: you would get back a skolemized bnode

10:53:31 <mischat_> webr3, if you are about join #rdf-json

Mischa Tuffield: webr3, if you are about join #rdf-json

10:53:36 <yvesr> zwu2: if we're using that skolemized bnode as a query

Zhe Wu: if we're using that skolemized bnode as a query

10:53:44 <yvesr> are we supposed to return :john or not?

are we supposed to return :john or not?

10:53:49 <yvesr> zwu2: are we supposed to return :john or not?

Zhe Wu: are we supposed to return :john or not?

10:53:52 <yvesr> SteveH: yes

Steve Harris: yes

10:54:08 <PatH> yes. once it is a uri, you can do this.

Patrick Hayes: yes. once it is a uri, you can do this.

10:54:09 <yvesr> davidwood: if identifiers leak out to the outside world, it maintains validity

David Wood: if identifiers leak out to the outside world, it maintains validity

10:54:31 <yvesr> ivan: if i use the bnode filter operation in a SPARQL query, what happens?

Ivan Herman: if i use the bnode filter operation in a SPARQL query, what happens?

10:54:37 <yvesr> ivan: does it match the skolemized bnode?

Ivan Herman: does it match the skolemized bnode?

10:54:47 <yvesr> SteveH: that's an issue for us

Steve Harris: that's an issue for us

10:54:49 <PatH> zakim, unmute me.

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me.

10:54:49 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

10:54:56 <yvesr> SteveH: we need to define if they count as bnodes or not

Steve Harris: we need to define if they count as bnodes or not

10:55:12 <yvesr> ivan: as a user, who doesn't understand this stuff, i would expect the bnode function to work

Ivan Herman: as a user, who doesn't understand this stuff, i would expect the bnode function to work

10:55:21 <yvesr> SteveH: in 4store, it would answer true

Steve Harris: in 4store, it would answer true

10:55:39 <yvesr> SteveH: it only gets skolemized on the export

Steve Harris: it only gets skolemized on the export

10:55:47 <yvesr> SteveH: internal consistency

Steve Harris: internal consistency

10:55:47 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

10:55:48 <davidwood> ack pchampin

David Wood: ack pchampin

10:55:49 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to talk about the fresh URIs and them leaking from the store

Zakim IRC Bot: pchampin, you wanted to talk about the fresh URIs and them leaking from the store

10:55:53 <ivan> ack pchampin

Ivan Herman: ack pchampin

10:56:34 <yvesr> pchampin: We shoudl specify what is ok for the system to do

Pierre-Antoine Champin: We shoudl specify what is ok for the system to do

10:56:39 <PatH> az, no problem

Patrick Hayes: az, no problem

10:56:43 <yvesr> pchampin: We should specify what the system would return

Pierre-Antoine Champin: We should specify what the system would return

10:56:44 <SteveH> AZ, that wouldn't be legal RDF syntax, though you could write it by hand

Steve Harris: AZ, that wouldn't be legal RDF syntax, though you could write it by hand

10:56:57 <davidwood> PatH, can you please resend your proposal?

David Wood: PatH, can you please resend your proposal?

10:56:58 <yvesr> pfps: Troubles finding the SPARQL bnode definition

Peter Patel-Schneider: Troubles finding the SPARQL bnode definition

10:57:25 <danbri> pat hayes

Dan Brickley: pat hayes

10:57:40 <SteveH> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#func-isBlank

Steve Harris: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#func-isBlank

10:57:49 <SteveH> ...the BNODE() function actually mints bNodes

Steve Harris: ...the BNODE() function actually mints bNodes

10:57:50 <yvesr> PatH: genid SHOULD be in the URI but not absolutely required

Patrick Hayes: genid SHOULD be in the URI but not absolutely required

10:57:58 <SteveH> but I think it was understood what was being discussed

Steve Harris: but I think it was understood what was being discussed

10:58:07 <yvesr> PatH: it should be possible for people to invent URIs and use them

Patrick Hayes: it should be possible for people to invent URIs and use them

10:58:15 <yvesr> PatH: they could use software to do that automatically

Patrick Hayes: they could use software to do that automatically

10:59:08 <yvesr> PatH: We should not allow skolems that are specific to a single query

Patrick Hayes: We should not allow skolems that are specific to a single query

10:59:24 <sandro> PatH: Note that Skolemization is not valid in an antecedent (eg query).

Patrick Hayes: Note that Skolemization is not valid in an antecedent (eg query). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:59:31 <sandro> SteveH: that's fine.

Steve Harris: that's fine. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:59:40 <PatH> prposal. it is permissible to replace bnodes by URIs provided that the URIs are 'fresh', ie not used in any other rdf graph. It is recommended to include a string /genid/. one way is sandro's prposal.

Patrick Hayes: prposal. it is permissible to replace bnodes by URIs provided that the URIs are 'fresh', ie not used in any other rdf graph. It is recommended to include a string /genid/. one way is sandro's prposal.

10:59:46 <yvesr> SteveH: the skolemization process has to be stable

Steve Harris: the skolemization process has to be stable

11:00:00 <yvesr> davidwood: Can we get consensus around this proposal?

David Wood: Can we get consensus around this proposal?

11:00:19 <yvesr> davidwood: are there concerns around sandro's mandated use?

David Wood: are there concerns around sandro's mandated use?

11:00:43 <yvesr> davidwood: if you're going to skolemize, you need to use a globally unique URI

David Wood: if you're going to skolemize, you need to use a globally unique URI

11:00:49 <sandro> freshness is iffy -- since you want stability....

Sandro Hawke: freshness is iffy -- since you want stability....

11:00:52 <yvesr> davidwood: and we encourage you to do it in a way

David Wood: and we encourage you to do it in a way

11:01:46 <danbri> -1 where did 'allowed' enter the rdf universe?

Dan Brickley: -1 where did 'allowed' enter the rdf universe?

11:01:49 <zwu2> as long as generated uri is fresh to the triple store, it is good enough

Zhe Wu: as long as generated uri is fresh to the triple store, it is good enough

11:01:54 <yvesr> -1 as well

-1 as well

11:02:01 <danbri> -> say what it means, not what people can/can't do

Dan Brickley: -> say what it means, not what people can/can't do

11:02:22 <PatH> must be fresh, should include /genid/

Patrick Hayes: must be fresh, should include /genid/

11:02:47 <yvesr> sandro: MAY is you're allowed to

Sandro Hawke: MAY is you're allowed to

11:02:58 <yvesr> pfps: SHOULD is you should do it, unless there's a very good reason not to

Peter Patel-Schneider: SHOULD is you should do it, unless there's a very good reason not to

11:03:16 <PatH> sandro, why is freshness "iffy"

Patrick Hayes: sandro, why is freshness "iffy"

11:03:37 <danbri> proposed: "A graph transformed such that each bnode is replaced with a fresh bnode [meeting some constraints], ... then that new graph is true under the same conditions of the original."

PROPOSED: "A graph transformed such that each bnode is replaced with a fresh bnode [meeting some constraints], ... then that new graph is true under the same conditions of the original."

11:03:40 <danbri> q+ to propose

Dan Brickley: q+ to propose

11:04:10 <danbri> we are not the SPARQL WG

Dan Brickley: we are not the SPARQL WG

11:04:12 <yvesr> davidwood: if systems are going to leak bnodes, they must use fresh uris

David Wood: if systems are going to leak bnodes, they must use fresh uris

11:04:52 <yvesr> SteveH: consistent mapping between internal representation and external id

Steve Harris: consistent mapping between internal representation and external id

11:05:02 <zwu2> so we can reuse "fresh" uris

Zhe Wu: so we can reuse "fresh" uris

11:05:11 <sandro> PROPOSAL: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, they MUST use fresh URI (per bnode) and SHOULD follow the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id][#] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id].  Such IRIs are considered more disposable.  "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

PROPOSED: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, they MUST use fresh URI (per bnode) and SHOULD follow the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id][#] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id]. Such IRIs are considered more disposable. "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

11:05:20 <yvesr> danbri: we're not the SPARQL working group - so I think this language inappropriate

Dan Brickley: we're not the SPARQL working group - so I think this language inappropriate

11:05:33 <yvesr> danbri: we should instead say something about graph structures

Dan Brickley: we should instead say something about graph structures

11:06:11 <yvesr> ivan: current RDF documents already talk about skolemization

Ivan Herman: current RDF documents already talk about skolemization

11:06:31 <yvesr> ivan: the only thing we're saying here is that if it is used, you should use this pattern

Ivan Herman: the only thing we're saying here is that if it is used, you should use this pattern

11:06:52 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#prf

Dan Brickley: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#prf

11:06:54 <yvesr> pfps: RDF Semantics talk about skolemization

Peter Patel-Schneider: RDF Semantics talk about skolemization

11:07:51 <yvesr> sandro: you need a web service to do the skolemization

Sandro Hawke: you need a web service to do the skolemization

11:08:00 <PatH> wha?

Patrick Hayes: wha?

11:08:05 <yvesr> ???

???

11:08:18 <danbri> madness!!!

Dan Brickley: madness!!!

11:08:18 <yvesr> SteveH: you can't guarantee uniqueness

Steve Harris: you can't guarantee uniqueness

11:08:30 <danbri> (that's a technical term, no disrespect intended)

Dan Brickley: (that's a technical term, no disrespect intended)

11:09:12 <PatH> call it 'bnode purging' and people will love it.

Patrick Hayes: call it 'bnode purging' and people will love it.

11:09:16 <yvesr> sandro: tag: skolemized bnode are more horrible than bnode

Sandro Hawke: tag: skolemized bnode are more horrible than bnode

11:09:35 <danbri> PatH, can it be couched more declaratively? this 'should' stuff worries me

Dan Brickley: PatH, can it be couched more declaratively? this 'should' stuff worries me

11:09:40 <JFB> RDF Semantics talks about Skolemization in Appendix A. Its notion of freshness is "fresh in the current graph"

Jean-François Baget: RDF Semantics talks about Skolemization in Appendix A. Its notion of freshness is "fresh in the current graph"

11:09:42 <yvesr> ivan: the R2RML folks are fighting with the same problem

Ivan Herman: the R2RML folks are fighting with the same problem

11:09:46 <PatH> danbri, yes.

Patrick Hayes: danbri, yes.

11:10:01 <yvesr> ivan: what happens when the DB doesn't have a (publicly exposable) primary key

Ivan Herman: what happens when a table in the DB doesn't have a (publicly exposable) primary key

11:10:13 <PatH> jfb, no, that is not what was intended.

Patrick Hayes: jfb, no, that is not what was intended.

11:10:14 <pchampin> s/the DB/a table in the DB/
11:10:19 <sandro> PatH, in "you need a web service to do the skolemization" , I mean to be particularly useful, and make people happy you did the Skolemization....

Sandro Hawke: PatH, in "you need a web service to do the skolemization" , I mean to be particularly useful, and make people happy you did the Skolemization....

11:10:45 <danbri> sandro, what are you seeing as the args to the skolemisation function? not just a document + base_uri?

Dan Brickley: sandro, what are you seeing as the args to the skolemisation function? not just a document + base_uri?

11:10:49 <yvesr> ivan: if we come up with this note, we need to send it to the R2RML group - potential first users

Ivan Herman: if we come up with this note, we need to send it to the R2RML group - potential first users

11:11:17 <sandro> PROPOSAL: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, they MUST use fresh URI (per bnode) and SHOULD follow the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id][#] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id].  Such IRIs are considered more disposable.  "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

PROPOSED: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, they MUST use fresh URI (per bnode) and SHOULD follow the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id][#] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id]. Such IRIs are considered more disposable. "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

11:11:37 <sandro> PROPOSAL: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, they MUST use a fresh URI (per bnode) and SHOULD follow the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id][#] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id].  Such IRIs are considered more disposable.  "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

PROPOSED: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, they MUST use a fresh URI (per bnode) and SHOULD follow the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id][#] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id]. Such IRIs are considered more disposable. "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

11:11:44 <sandro> objections from danbri and yves.

Sandro Hawke: objections from danbri and yves.

11:11:49 <PatH> unhappy with 'disposable'

Patrick Hayes: unhappy with 'disposable'

11:12:13 <yvesr> danbri: very short URIs are important to me

Dan Brickley: very short URIs are important to me

11:12:19 <yvesr> danbri: don't force me to use this long pattern

Dan Brickley: don't force me to use this long pattern

11:12:25 <sandro> danbri: short URIs are important to me.   don't force me to do it this way.

Dan Brickley: short URIs are important to me. don't force me to do it this way. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

11:12:41 <yvesr> SteveH: uri pattern is quite verbose

Steve Harris: uri pattern is quite verbose

11:12:45 <PatH> and would prefer to just say 'SHOULD include string /genid/'

Patrick Hayes: and would prefer to just say 'SHOULD include string /genid/'

11:12:49 <danbri> sorry - am sounding grumpier than I am. This could be a useful pattern for some.

Dan Brickley: sorry - am sounding grumpier than I am. This could be a useful pattern for some.

11:12:50 <sandro> SteveH: for the non-deref form I prefer something smaller.

Steve Harris: for the non-deref form I prefer something smaller. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

11:13:08 <zwu2> how about genid:local_unique_id

Zhe Wu: how about genid:local_unique_id

11:13:14 <yvesr> danbri: if we cut the proposal to the first MUST, any objections?

Dan Brickley: if we cut the proposal to the first MUST, any objections?

11:13:35 <PatH> and sandro's particular form offered as an offtheshelf solution.

Patrick Hayes: and sandro's particular form offered as an offtheshelf solution.

11:13:39 <yvesr>  all: what does disposable mean?

all: what does disposable mean?

11:13:44 <yvesr> pfps: all pragmatics from here

Peter Patel-Schneider: all pragmatics from here

11:13:54 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

11:14:20 <yvesr> sandro: you can skolemize, at some cost

Sandro Hawke: you can skolemize, at some cost

11:14:33 <danbri> when you said "You're changing the data", that's in the right direction pfps

Dan Brickley: when you said "You're changing the data", that's in the right direction pfps

11:14:56 <PatH> you always can skolemize. It is not valid, but it preserves satisfiability.

Patrick Hayes: you always can skolemize. It is not valid, but it preserves satisfiability.

11:15:02 <yvesr> sandro: proposition restrcited to MUST is actually stronger - want to expose the fact that it has been skolemized

Sandro Hawke: proposition restrcited to MUST is actually stronger - want to expose the fact that it has been skolemized

11:15:36 <yvesr> sandro: genid:... would be good, but needs to be pushed through the IETF

Sandro Hawke: genid:... would be good, but needs to be pushed through the IETF

11:15:54 <yvesr> ivan: this is a pain

Ivan Herman: this is a pain

11:16:11 <yvesr> sandro: don't want to be stuck in the IETF

Sandro Hawke: don't want to be stuck in the IETF

11:16:24 <zwu2> you guys are not hungry, are you?

Zhe Wu: you guys are not hungry, are you?

11:16:25 <danbri> the crux seems to be 'is it still in some appropriate equivalence class of graphs from the original? or has it been inappropriately interfered with..."

Dan Brickley: the crux seems to be 'is it still in some appropriate equivalence class of graphs from the original? or has it been inappropriately interfered with..."

11:16:43 <PatH> why do we need to involve the IETF???

Patrick Hayes: why do we need to involve the IETF???

11:17:00 <gavinc> scheme registration :(

Gavin Carothers: scheme registration :(

11:17:03 <yvesr> PatH, for a potential new uri scheme for those skolems

PatH, for a potential new uri scheme for those skolems

11:17:09 <pchampin> PatH: if we want a genid: URI scheme

Patrick Hayes: if we want a genid: URI scheme [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ]

11:17:11 <pfps> if we want to use URIs of the form genid:... we need to get approval

Peter Patel-Schneider: if we want to use URIs of the form genid:... we need to get approval

11:17:20 <PatH> screw a new scheme. they are just uris.

Patrick Hayes: screw a new scheme. they are just uris.

11:17:42 <yvesr> SteveH: are the two graphs the same? the skolemized and the original one?

Steve Harris: are the two graphs the same? the skolemized and the original one?

11:17:53 <ivan> Pat, the issue is that the proposed URI-s are ugly and long...

Ivan Herman: Pat, the issue is that the proposed URI-s are ugly and long...

11:18:01 <PatH> we need pertmission to include some text inside a URI??

Patrick Hayes: we need pertmission to include some text inside a URI??

11:18:30 <sandro> we need permission to say that all URIs containing certain text have a certain meaning, Pat.

Sandro Hawke: we need permission to say that all URIs containing certain text have a certain meaning, Pat.

11:18:34 <PatH> ivan, that is another issue.

Patrick Hayes: ivan, that is another issue.

11:18:35 <yvesr> you can't project from skolemized to original, but you can the other way around

you can't project from skolemized to original, but you can the other way around

11:18:52 <yvesr> FabGandon: you can't project from skolemized to original, but you can the other way around

Fabien Gandon: you can't project from skolemized to original, but you can the other way around

11:18:59 <PatH> we artent saying anything about meaning, sandro.

Patrick Hayes: we artent saying anything about meaning, sandro.

11:19:17 <PatH> we are just making them recognizable.

Patrick Hayes: we are just making them recognizable.

11:19:58 <PatH> dawn is breaking here.

Patrick Hayes: dawn is breaking here.

11:20:04 <yvesr> davidwood: if we're close to a solution, let's keep on on that

David Wood: if we're close to a solution, let's keep on on that

11:21:04 <sandro> PROPOSAL: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, without doing damage to the graph, they MUST use a fresh URI (per bnode) and SHOULD follow the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id][#] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id] (or, someday, genid:...).  Such IRIs are considered more disposable.  "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

PROPOSED: If systems are going to reveal Skolemized bnodes, without doing damage to the graph, they MUST use a fresh URI (per bnode) and SHOULD follow the form http[s]://[domain]/.well-known/genid/[locally-uniq-id][#] or tag:[domain],[year]/.well-known/genid/[locally-unique-id] (or, someday, genid:...). Such IRIs are considered more disposable. "genid" to be reg'd with IETF.

11:21:31 <FabGandon> yvesr: still not happy with the SHOULD part

Yves Raimond: still not happy with the SHOULD part [ Scribe Assist by Fabien Gandon ]

11:21:40 <PatH> -1 to that. way too restricting. overkill.

Patrick Hayes: -1 to that. way too restricting. overkill.

11:21:53 <FabGandon> ... not confortable with specifying a URI parttern.

Fabien Gandon: ... not confortable with specifying a URI parttern.

11:22:00 <pchampin> still uncomfortable with the "disposable" part; I don't know what that means

Pierre-Antoine Champin: still uncomfortable with the "disposable" part; I don't know what that means

11:22:05 <zwu2> +0

Zhe Wu: +0

11:22:13 <FabGandon> ivan: happier with IETF pattern

Ivan Herman: happier with IETF pattern [ Scribe Assist by Fabien Gandon ]

11:22:15 <PatH> agree with fabgandon

Patrick Hayes: agree with fabgandon

11:22:45 <FabGandon> Fabien happier with genid:

Fabien Gandon: Fabien happier with genid:

11:23:07 <PatH> we do not need to get IETF involved.

Patrick Hayes: we do not need to get IETF involved.

11:23:35 <pchampin> PatH: if we want genid: URIs, we do

Patrick Hayes: if we want genid: URIs, we do [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ]

11:23:39 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

11:23:42 <PatH> have a good lunch, guys.

Patrick Hayes: have a good lunch, guys.

11:23:55 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

11:23:59 <AZ> enjoy your meal

Antoine Zimmermann: enjoy your meal

11:24:04 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

11:24:18 <PatH> pchampin: I do not neeed he IETF t put 'gnid' into a URI name.

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I do not neeed he IETF t put 'gnid' into a URI name. [ Scribe Assist by Patrick Hayes ]

11:24:41 <PatH> Anyway, back to email :-)

Patrick Hayes: Anyway, back to email :-)

11:25:09 <gavinc>  about:, irc:, javascript:, jar:, rsync:, ssh:, ... need the IETF is a nice idea, the world doesn't exactly agree ;)

Gavin Carothers: about:, irc:, javascript:, jar:, rsync:, ssh:, ... need the IETF is a nice idea, the world doesn't exactly agree ;)

11:25:33 <gavinc> heck, if WHATWG has its way with the IETF ... no comment

Gavin Carothers: heck, if WHATWG has its way with the IETF ... no comment

11:25:54 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

12:02:29 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/4DA6A6AD.70205@deri.org -> Antoine's objection to yesterday's resolution

(No events recorded for 36 minutes)

Ivan Herman: -> http://www.w3.org/mid/4DA6A6AD.70205@deri.org -> Antoine's objection to yesterday's resolution

12:02:55 <ivan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0307.html instead

Ivan Herman: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0307.html instead

12:03:02 <danbri> 404

Dan Brickley: 404

12:03:04 <danbri> ah

Dan Brickley: ah

12:03:19 <ivan> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0309.html Lee's reply

Ivan Herman: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0309.html Lee's reply

12:05:51 <gavinc> zakim, code?

Gavin Carothers: zakim, code?

12:05:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), gavinc

12:06:18 <danbri> zakim, who is on the phone?

Dan Brickley: zakim, who is on the phone?

12:06:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room

12:06:19 <mischat> can people here the room ?

Mischa Tuffield: can people hear the room ?

12:06:19 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

12:06:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room

12:06:23 <mischat> s/here/hear/
12:06:27 <Zakim> +gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc

12:06:53 <sandro> topic: Debrief Breakouts

4. Debrief Breakouts

12:07:03 <sandro> subtopic: JSON Breakout Debrief

4.1. JSON Breakout Debrief

12:07:34 <cmatheus> scribe:cmatheus

(Scribe set to Christopher Matheus)

12:07:34 <cmatheus> cygri: talked about note to enumerate problem JSON space

Richard Cyganiak: talked about note to enumerate problem JSON space

12:07:51 <cmatheus> three examples; linked data, BBC, NYT

three examples; linked data, BBC, NYT

12:08:01 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb

12:08:16 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

12:08:25 <cmatheus> part of problem: data always connected to some api

part of problem: data always connected to some api

12:08:31 <AlexHall> zakim, +1.443.212.aabb is me

Alex Hall: zakim, +1.443.212.aabb is me

12:08:31 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

12:08:47 <cmatheus> linked data approach provides tools but its complicated

linked data approach provides tools but its complicated

12:09:30 <cmatheus> talked about focusing on simple actions a json developer might want to take: enumerate instances, describe instance

talked about focusing on simple actions a json developer might want to take: enumerate instances, describe instance

12:10:21 <cmatheus> mischat: will also enlist help form rdfa TF

Mischa Tuffield: will also enlist help form rdfa TF

12:10:26 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

12:10:35 <ivan> zakim, open queue

Ivan Herman: zakim, open queue

12:10:35 <Zakim> ok, ivan, the speaker queue is open

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan, the speaker queue is open

12:10:39 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

12:10:48 <ivan> ack

Ivan Herman: ack

12:10:49 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

12:10:54 <davidwood> ack ivan

David Wood: ack ivan

12:11:37 <Zakim> +??P18

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18

12:11:48 <cmatheus> ivan: discussion with Sandro about rdf web app working group (rdfa wg)

Ivan Herman: discussion with Sandro about rdf web app working group (rdfa wg)

12:11:58 <webr3> Zakim, I am ??P18

Nathan Rixham: Zakim, I am ??P18

12:11:58 <Zakim> +webr3; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +webr3; got it

12:12:30 <cmatheus> ivan: their intention is for low level things to be hidden from JS user

Ivan Herman: their intention is for low level things to be hidden from JS user

12:12:53 <cmatheus> whatever comes out of that group should be coordinated

whatever comes out of that group should be coordinated

12:13:04 <cmatheus> need to keep groups in sync

need to keep groups in sync

12:13:33 <cmatheus> guus: does this mean our use case numbver one is being done by rdfs wg?

Guus Schreiber: does this mean our use case numbver one is being done by rdfs wg?

12:13:43 <cmatheus> ivan: it's in the bin

Ivan Herman: it's in the bin

12:13:56 <danbri> 'in the bin?' = trash?

Dan Brickley: 'in the bin?' = trash?

12:14:13 <webr3> next week..

Nathan Rixham: next week..

12:14:26 <cmatheus> according to plan rdfa api will be published next week

according to plan rdfa api will be published next week

12:14:41 <cmatheus> this group should look at that document

this group should look at that document

12:15:05 <cmatheus> guus: reporting of second breakout?

Guus Schreiber: reporting of second breakout?

12:15:22 <sandro> subtopic: Report of Skolemization Breakout

4.2. Report of Skolemization Breakout

12:15:40 <cmatheus> steveh: problem is if you have bnodes and you want to run a query to get them out there's no way to do that.

Steve Harris: problem is if you have bnodes and you want to run a query to get them out there's no way to do that.

12:15:58 <cmatheus> plan is to provide a standard skolemize method to let you get them out

plan is to provide a standard skolemize method to let you get them out

12:16:16 <cmatheus> everyone agreed this was good

everyone agreed this was good

12:16:35 <sandro> SteveH: If you query a sparql store and get bnodes out, there's no way to ask about them.    We'd like to stdize a way to allow those bnodes to be given lables (be IRI nodes) so you can ask more.    The sticky part is about indicating which nodes started out live as bnodes.

Steve Harris: If you query a sparql store and get bnodes out, there's no way to ask about them. We'd like to stdize a way to allow those bnodes to be given lables (be IRI nodes) so you can ask more. The sticky part is about indicating which nodes started out live as bnodes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:16:44 <cmatheus> sticky part whether it's desirable to have a way to tell that these started out as bnodes.

sticky part whether it's desirable to have a way to tell that these started out as bnodes.

12:17:19 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

12:18:02 <cmatheus> guus: is there consensus that you should be able to tell that they were blank nodes?

Guus Schreiber: is there consensus that you should be able to tell that they were blank nodes?

12:18:44 <Zakim> +AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ

12:18:46 <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-rdf-json-minutes.html Minutes of JSON breakout

Steven Pemberton: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-rdf-json-minutes.html Minutes of JSON breakout

12:18:53 <cmatheus> davidwood: core issue: how are people external to the skolem process able to tell they were bnodes.

David Wood: core issue: how are people external to the skolem process able to tell they were bnodes.

12:18:57 <danbri> (@cygri, I made a twitter list with rdfwg members, from your post - https://twitter.com/#!/danbri/rdfwg )

Dan Brickley: (@cygri, I made a twitter list with rdfwg members, from your post - https://twitter.com/#!/danbri/rdfwg )

12:19:45 <cmatheus> question to peter: do you object to there being a way to be able to tell that these are bnodes?

question to peter: do you object to there being a way to be able to tell that these are bnodes?

12:19:53 <sandro> davidwood: Peter, do you object to there being a mechanism for indicating skolem nodes?

David Wood: Peter, do you object to there being a mechanism for indicating skolem nodes? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:20:07 <sandro> Peter: I object to it being mandated.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I object to it being mandated. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:20:16 <cmatheus> peter: against it being manditory

Peter Patel-Schneider: against it being manditory

12:20:34 <cmatheus> as a consum I don't need to know whether someone skolemized.

as a consum I don't need to know whether someone skolemized.

12:20:40 <sandro> peter: As a consumer, I don't need to know, in all cases, whether Skolemization was done.  It would be nice to know, but it's not even a should.

Peter Patel-Schneider: As a consumer, I don't need to know, in all cases, whether Skolemization was done. It would be nice to know, but it's not even a should. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:20:58 <gavinc> +q to ask if isBlank() behavior should stay the same with skolemized or non skolemized?

Gavin Carothers: +q to ask if isBlank() behavior should stay the same with skolemized or non skolemized?

12:20:59 <cmatheus> it's nice if we all did it or all agreed on doing it.

it's nice if we all did it or all agreed on doing it.

12:21:18 <danbri> so was this skolemised? http://data.linkedmdb.org/page/film/2014 ... who cares!

Dan Brickley: so was this skolemised? http://data.linkedmdb.org/page/film/2014 ... who cares!

12:21:24 <sandro> SteveH: I want to be able to mint URIs that are skolem constants for bnodes such that when I get them back I can tell they were bnodes?

Steve Harris: I want to be able to mint URIs that are skolem constants for bnodes such that when I get them back I can tell they were bnodes? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:21:55 <cmatheus> steveh: if the producer gets the bnodes back should they be able to tell if they were created as bnodes?  different from having any user being able to tell.

Steve Harris: if the producer gets the bnodes back should they be able to tell if they were created as bnodes? different from having any user being able to tell.

12:22:20 <cmatheus> davidwood: in short, we were not able to get consensus

David Wood: in short, we were not able to get consensus

12:22:23 <gavinc> -q

Gavin Carothers: -q

12:22:31 <cmatheus> guus: will leave it open for the moment

Guus Schreiber: will leave it open for the moment

12:22:38 <sandro> danbri, there are several practical situations when I would care, yes.

Sandro Hawke: danbri, there are several practical situations when I would care, yes.

12:23:07 <cmatheus> guus: turning to clean up

Guus Schreiber: turning to clean up

12:23:15 <SteveH> danbri, if someone does INSERT DATA { <http://data.linkedmdb.org/page/film/2014> ... } and it's ont of my bNodes, I really need to be able to tell

Steve Harris: danbri, if someone does INSERT DATA { <http://data.linkedmdb.org/page/film/2014> ... } and it's ont of my bNodes, I really need to be able to tell

12:23:24 <SteveH> otherwise it will screw up the data

Steve Harris: otherwise it will screw up the data

12:23:58 <cmatheus> sandro: yesterday issue 10: deprecated, will use archaic

Sandro Hawke: yesterday ISSUE-10: deprecated, will use archaic

12:24:13 <cmatheus> issues on xs:string, containers

issues on xs:string, containers

12:24:57 <cmatheus> next item for today: reification

next item for today: reification

12:25:04 <cmatheus> this is issue-25

this is ISSUE-25

12:25:35 <cmatheus> propse that we leave this until after we have a replacement for it

propse that we leave this until after we have a replacement for it

12:26:08 <cmatheus>  issue-26: trivial, rdfxml syntax has two ways to state subject: rdf:about and rdf:id

ISSUE-26: trivial, rdfxml syntax has two ways to state subject: rdf:about and rdf:id

12:26:08 <trackbot> ISSUE-26 Should we deprecate rdf:ID on RDF/XML node elements? (use rdf:about instead) notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-26 Should we deprecate rdf:ID on RDF/XML node elements? (use rdf:about instead) notes added

12:26:26 <cmatheus> proposal to mark idea as archaic

proposal to mark idea as archaic

12:26:47 <cmatheus> Steveh: it can be usefull to use rdf:id to ensure you don't reuse an id

Steve Harris: it can be usefull to use rdf:id to ensure you don't reuse an id

12:26:56 <sandro> SteveH: rdf:ID can be useful to find times when you accidentally use it twice....

Steve Harris: rdf:ID can be useful to find times when you accidentally use it twice.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:26:59 <cmatheus> (since rdf:id's must be unique)

(since rdf:id's must be unique)

12:27:08 <AlexHall> do most rdf/xml parsers enforce the uniqueness of rdf:ID?

Alex Hall: do most rdf/xml parsers enforce the uniqueness of rdf:ID?

12:27:08 <cmatheus> guus: no objection to marking archaic

Guus Schreiber: no objection to marking archaic

12:27:40 <cmatheus> cygri: I would argue against it.  it's a minor issue.  fixes a minor problem among the many rdf has.

Richard Cyganiak: I would argue against it. it's a minor issue. fixes a minor problem among the many rdf has.

12:27:51 <cmatheus> if this is the only change let's not go there

if this is the only change let's not go there

12:28:00 <gavinc> Googling for rdf:ID lists documents which give conflicting advice on using it vs. rdf:about

Gavin Carothers: Googling for rdf:ID lists documents which give conflicting advice on using it vs. rdf:about

12:28:17 <cmatheus> sandro:  wouldn't suggest that we go to much lenght to fix, but would recommend author's not to suggest using rdf:id

Sandro Hawke: wouldn't suggest that we go to much lenght to fix, but would recommend author's not to suggest using rdf:id

12:28:52 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/#section-Syntax-ID-xml-base

Dan Brickley: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/#section-Syntax-ID-xml-base

12:28:58 <cmatheus> guus: there is a cost involved to learning to use rdf:id vs. rdf:about

Guus Schreiber: there is a cost involved to learning to use rdf:id vs. rdf:about

12:29:03 <danbri> "So for example if rdf:ID="name", that would be equivalent to rdf:about="#name". rdf:ID provides an additional check since the same name can only appear once in the scope of an xml:base value (or document, if none is given), so is useful for defining a set of distinct, related terms relative to the same RDF URI reference."

Dan Brickley: "So for example if rdf:ID="name", that would be equivalent to rdf:about="#name". rdf:ID provides an additional check since the same name can only appear once in the scope of an xml:base value (or document, if none is given), so is useful for defining a set of distinct, related terms relative to the same RDF URI reference."

12:29:32 <cmatheus> danbri: rdf:node_id are for bnodes

Dan Brickley: rdf:node_id are for bnodes

12:29:34 <danbri> q+

Dan Brickley: q+

12:30:25 <cmatheus> sandro:  no body advocating rdf:id is a good thing just that it's not worth doing much about it

Sandro Hawke: no body advocating rdf:id is a good thing just that it's not worth doing much about it

12:30:53 <sandro> PROPOSED: We don't think people should be using rdf:ID, but maybe it's not worth expressing this sentiment in any documents.

PROPOSED: We don't think people should be using rdf:ID, but maybe it's not worth expressing this sentiment in any documents.

12:31:28 <webr3> so why not just deprecate it?

Nathan Rixham: so why not just deprecate it?

12:31:35 <cmatheus> guus: no one arguing for keeping it

Guus Schreiber: no one arguing for keeping it

12:31:42 <sandro> webr3, lots of people just gave their reasons.

Sandro Hawke: webr3, lots of people just gave their reasons.

12:31:46 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

12:31:54 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

12:31:59 <cmatheus> ivan: I would not touch rdf/xml

Ivan Herman: I would not touch rdf/xml

12:32:10 <pchampin> @web3: we deprecated the term 'deprecate' yesterday :)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: @web3: we deprecated the term 'deprecate' yesterday :)

12:32:13 <SteveH> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22rdf%3AID%22 suggests we should keep it

Steve Harris: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22rdf%3AID%22 suggests we should keep it

12:32:17 <cmatheus> if we begin to do something with it we will have to do a serious job

if we begin to do something with it we will have to do a serious job

12:32:56 <cmatheus> danbri: rdf spec grammar, rdf:id can be used to check name reuse

Dan Brickley: rdf spec grammar, rdf:id can be used to check name reuse

12:33:12 <sandro> danbri: By saying anything, we complicated the RDF environment.

Dan Brickley: By saying anything, we complicated the RDF environment. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:33:16 <cmatheus> if we say anything at all we add complexity to rdf environment.

if we say anything at all we add complexity to rdf environment.

12:33:24 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

12:33:35 <cmatheus> guus: propose we do not change

Guus Schreiber: propose we do not change

12:33:40 <ivan> ack danbri

Ivan Herman: ack danbri

12:33:42 <ivan> ack pfps

Ivan Herman: ack pfps

12:33:46 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26 doing nothing.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26 doing nothing.

12:33:49 <cmatheus> pfps: because it is being used we should do something about it

Peter Patel-Schneider: because it is being used we should do something about it

12:33:57 <LeeF> ISSUE-26?

Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-26?

12:33:57 <trackbot> ISSUE-26 -- Should we deprecate rdf:ID on RDF/XML node elements? (use rdf:about instead) -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-26 -- Should we deprecate rdf:ID on RDF/XML node elements? (use rdf:about instead) -- open

12:33:57 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/26

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/26

12:34:07 <gavinc> I think my objection to rdf:ID is what happens if your xml:base ends with a / ;)

Gavin Carothers: I think my objection to rdf:ID is what happens if your xml:base ends with a / ;)

12:34:29 <gavinc> the issue is "appending the attribute value to the result of appending "#""

Gavin Carothers: the issue is "appending the attribute value to the result of appending "#""

12:34:38 <NickH> Why is getting rid of rdf:ID more effort than getting rid of XMLLiteral / xsd:String etc?

Nicholas Humfrey: Why is getting rid of rdf:ID more effort than getting rid of XMLLiteral / xsd:String etc?

12:34:42 <cmatheus> davidwood: why if it caused confusion and we agree we shouldn't use it, why should we continue to accept it?

David Wood: why if it caused confusion and we agree we shouldn't use it, why should we continue to accept it?

12:34:49 <danbri> q+ to propose that we replace rdf:about and rdf:resource with rdf:uri, i.e. <foaf:Person rdf:uri="#me"><foaf:homepage rdf:uri="/"></foaf:Person>

Dan Brickley: q+ to propose that we replace rdf:about and rdf:resource with rdf:uri, i.e. <foaf:Person rdf:uri="#me"><foaf:homepage rdf:uri="/"></foaf:Person>

12:34:55 <cmatheus> marking it archaic is not removing it

marking it archaic is not removing it

12:35:11 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26 doing nothing.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26 doing nothing.

12:35:12 <NickH>  sorry for the inaccuracy

Nicholas Humfrey: sorry for the inaccuracy

12:35:18 <danbri> q-

Dan Brickley: q-

12:35:36 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

12:35:38 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

12:35:39 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

12:35:40 <danbri> +1

Dan Brickley: +1

12:35:41 <pfps> +0

Peter Patel-Schneider: +0

12:35:41 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

12:35:42 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

12:35:42 <mbrunati> 1

Matteo Brunati: 1

12:35:43 <gavinc> -0

Gavin Carothers: -0

12:35:43 <cmatheus>cmatheus::+1

Christopher Matheus: :+1

12:35:44 <sandro> +0 (I understand)

Sandro Hawke: +0 (I understand)

12:35:44 <webr3> +0

Nathan Rixham: +0

12:35:47 <JFB> +1/3

Jean-François Baget: +1/3

12:35:51 <davidwood> +0

David Wood: +0

12:35:57 <mischat> +1

Mischa Tuffield: +1

12:36:00 <NickH> Why is marking rdf:ID as archaic more effort than marking XMLLiteral / xsd:String etc archaic?

Nicholas Humfrey: Why is marking rdf:ID as archaic more effort than marking XMLLiteral / xsd:String etc archaic?

12:36:05 <FabGandon> +2/3

Fabien Gandon: +2/3

12:36:07 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-26 doing nothing.

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-26 doing nothing.

12:36:33 <davidwood> NickH: Because marking rdf:ID as archaic would require a change to the RDF/XML document.

Nicholas Humfrey: Because marking rdf:ID as archaic would require a change to the RDF/XML document. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

12:36:34 <cmatheus> sandro: rdf:value

Sandro Hawke: rdf:value

12:36:49 <cmatheus> all I can say, mark it as archaic

all I can say, mark it as archaic

12:36:51 <danbri> NickH - because those are *vocabulary* constructs which affect the entire ecosystem - rdfa, turtle, json, sparql, owl...

Dan Brickley: NickH - because those are *vocabulary* constructs which affect the entire ecosystem - rdfa, turtle, json, sparql, owl...

12:37:01 <sandro> SteveH: I like rdf:value

Steve Harris: I like rdf:value [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:37:05 <sandro> Guus: I like it too!

Guus Schreiber: I like it too! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:37:07 <cmatheus> FabGandon: it's in a best practice note

Fabien Gandon: it's in a best practice note

12:37:26 <LeeF> SCOVO uses rdf:value (for better or for worse)

Lee Feigenbaum: SCOVO uses rdf:value (for better or for worse)

12:37:26 <NickH> danbri / davidwood thanks

Nicholas Humfrey: danbri / davidwood thanks

12:37:33 <webr3> I like rdf:value just wish it was defined more clearly

Nathan Rixham: I like rdf:value just wish it was defined more clearly

12:37:39 <LeeF> (http://sw.joanneum.at/scovo/schema.html)

Lee Feigenbaum: (http://sw.joanneum.at/scovo/schema.html)

12:37:53 <sandro> Guus: In representation of museum data, we annotate with a bnode structure and then use a rdf:value for what's really pointed to.

Guus Schreiber: In representation of museum data, we annotate with a bnode structure and then use a rdf:value for what's really pointed to. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:37:54 <cmatheus> guus: example of its use: have things about values such as its dimension

Guus Schreiber: example of its use: have things about values such as its dimension

12:38:13 <gavinc> +q Dublin Core also uses it

Gavin Carothers: +q Dublin Core also uses it

12:38:13 <danbri>  rdf:value was partly from reification, and partly for n-ary -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2010Jul/0252.html

Dan Brickley: rdf:value was partly from reification, and partly for n-ary -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2010Jul/0252.html

12:38:26 <gavinc> +q to talk mention that Dublin Core also uses it

Gavin Carothers: +q to talk mention that Dublin Core also uses it

12:38:29 <sandro> guus: Lots of people use this pattern, effectively.

Guus Schreiber: Lots of people use this pattern, effectively. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:38:41 <danbri> it's a bit like toString()

Dan Brickley: it's a bit like toString()

12:38:45 <FabGandon> Note 3 in SWBPWG http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/#sec-notes

Fabien Gandon: Note 3 in SWBPWG http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/#sec-notes

12:38:46 <cmatheus> guus: this is a property that points to the value

Guus Schreiber: this is a property that points to the value

12:38:54 <cmatheus> it's highly deployed in some communities

it's highly deployed in some communities

12:39:39 <LeeF> Even if it was the most hated thing in the spec, I don't think we ought to deprecate it if it's as widely in use as it appears.

Lee Feigenbaum: Even if it was the most hated thing in the spec, I don't think we ought to deprecate it if it's as widely in use as it appears.

12:39:53 <danbri> re weights-and-measures, http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-rdf-syntax-19990222/ uses it for exactly that -- search for       <n:units rdf:resource="http://www.nist.gov/units/Pounds"/>

Dan Brickley: re weights-and-measures, http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-rdf-syntax-19990222/ uses it for exactly that -- search for <n:units rdf:resource="http://www.nist.gov/units/Pounds"/>

12:39:54 <cmatheus> Steveh: done work with numeric data, want to be able to lterals as subjects in a sense

Steve Harris: done work with numeric data, want to be able to lterals as subjects in a sense

12:40:00 <yvesr> SteveH, was it signal processign related stuff?

Yves Raimond: SteveH, was it signal processign related stuff?

12:40:09 <yvesr> SteveH, had to do the same for this kind of things

Yves Raimond: SteveH, had to do the same for this kind of things

12:40:10 <cmatheus> ivan: when you need to add a unit to a value this is perhaps the best way to do it

Ivan Herman: when you need to add a unit to a value this is perhaps the best way to do it

12:40:16 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-27 doing nothing (not marking rdf:value as archaic).

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-27 doing nothing (not marking rdf:value as archaic).

12:40:20 <gavinc> -q

Gavin Carothers: -q

12:40:21 <pfps> -1

Peter Patel-Schneider: -1

12:40:21 <webr3> +1

Nathan Rixham: +1

12:40:22 <SteveH> yvesr, no, demographics

Steve Harris: yvesr, no, demographics

12:40:23 <cmatheus> danbri: was in the original recommendation for that purpose

Dan Brickley: was in the original recommendation for that purpose

12:40:23 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

12:40:24 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

12:40:26 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

12:40:30 <AZ> +0

Antoine Zimmermann: +0

12:40:33 <SteveH> yvesr, but I think it might also be used in LV2

Steve Harris: yvesr, but I think it might also be used in LV2

12:40:35 <pchampin> q?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q?

12:40:37 <gavinc> +q to talk mention that Dublin Core also uses it

Gavin Carothers: +q to talk mention that Dublin Core also uses it

12:40:39 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

12:40:40 <cmatheus> cygri: would like evidence on its deployment

Richard Cyganiak: would like evidence on its deployment

12:40:42 <mbrunati> +1

Matteo Brunati: +1

12:40:43 <SteveH> yvesr, for presets and defaults

Steve Harris: yvesr, for presets and defaults

12:40:55 <FabGandon> +1/2

Fabien Gandon: +1/2

12:40:58 <cmatheus> pfps: I've seen it.  always badly.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I've seen it. always badly.

12:41:03 <sandro> pfps: Every single case where I've seen it used, it's used badly.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Every single case where I've seen it used, it's used badly. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:41:05 <cmatheus> danbri: how could you tell?

Dan Brickley: how could you tell?

12:41:27 <cmatheus> pfps: there's always a back handed agreement for how it is used

Peter Patel-Schneider: there's always a back handed agreement for how it is used

12:41:30 <sandro> pfps: ... where there is a backhanded agreement about what it really means, and where the meaning is really different in every case.

Peter Patel-Schneider: ... where there is a backhanded agreement about what it really means, and where the meaning is really different in every case. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:41:39 <cmatheus> ivan: this can be done because it is an open ended property

Ivan Herman: this can be done because it is an open ended property

12:41:48 <cmatheus> pfps: destroys the utility of rdf

Peter Patel-Schneider: destroys the utility of rdf

12:42:00 <cmatheus>  rdf:value is used as a local property

rdf:value is used as a local property

12:42:06 <webr3> +1 pfps

Nathan Rixham: +1 pfps

12:42:15 <cmatheus> cygri: where used they should have defined a local property

Richard Cyganiak: where used they should have defined a local property

12:42:21 <cmatheus> guus: that's not true

Guus Schreiber: that's not true

12:42:22 <webr3> it's centered on out of band knowledge about the data

Nathan Rixham: it's centered on out of band knowledge about the data

12:42:22 <AZ> +1 cygri

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 cygri

12:42:30 <sandro> cygri: I would argue that every time it's used, a local property should be defined for that.

Richard Cyganiak: I would argue that every time it's used, a local property should be defined for that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:42:37 <cmatheus>  rdf:value is for something where we don't have a solution

rdf:value is for something where we don't have a solution

12:42:56 <cmatheus> steveh: like rdfs:label -- it's a handy thing to have around

Steve Harris: like rdfs:label -- it's a handy thing to have around

12:43:00 <webr3>  rdfs:label is a typed link, rdf:value is untyped

Nathan Rixham: rdfs:label is a typed link, rdf:value is untyped

12:43:05 <sandro> issue-27

Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-27

12:43:09 <sandro> issue-27?

Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-27?

12:43:10 <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- Should we deprecate rdf:value? -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-27 -- Should we deprecate rdf:value? -- open

12:43:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/27

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/27

12:43:31 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-primer-20040210/#rdfvalue

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-primer-20040210/#rdfvalue

12:43:36 <cmatheus> guus: rdf:label points to a string instead of name and rdf:value points to the value

Guus Schreiber: rdf:label points to a string instead of name and rdf:value points to the value

12:43:48 <cmatheus> same kind of function as rdf:label

same kind of function as rdf:label

12:43:51 <mischat> ?q

Mischa Tuffield: ?q

12:43:56 <danbri> ±0

Dan Brickley: ±0

12:44:16 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_value "rdf:value has no meaning on its own. It is provided as a piece of vocabulary that may be used in idioms such as illustrated in example 16 of the RDF primer [RDF-PRIMER]. Despite the lack of formal specification of the meaning of this property, there is value in defining it to encourage the use of a common idiom in examples of this kind."

Dan Brickley: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_value "rdf:value has no meaning on its own. It is provided as a piece of vocabulary that may be used in idioms such as illustrated in example 16 of the RDF primer [RDF-PRIMER]. Despite the lack of formal specification of the meaning of this property, there is value in defining it to encourage the use of a common idiom in examples of this kind."

12:44:18 <cmatheus> pfps:  don't mark it as archaic but realize you're making a bad mistake

Peter Patel-Schneider: don't mark it as archaic but realize you're making a bad mistake

12:44:20 <LeeF> Can we put an action to address this in the updated primer?

Lee Feigenbaum: Can we put an action to address this in the updated primer?

12:44:22 <danbri> ie. RDFS current encourages its use

Dan Brickley: ie. RDFS current encourages its use

12:44:33 <cmatheus> sandro: do you want document to say something about it?

Sandro Hawke: do you want document to say something about it?

12:44:42 <gavinc> Does Dublin Core do it wrong? http://dublincore.org/documents/dc-rdf-notes/

Gavin Carothers: Does Dublin Core do it wrong? http://dublincore.org/documents/dc-rdf-notes/

12:44:54 <cmatheus> pfps: no.  every time it's been used its been used badly.

Peter Patel-Schneider: no. every time it's been used its been used badly.

12:45:05 <webr3> pfps +1

Nathan Rixham: pfps +1

12:45:10 <sandro> pfps: Every time I've seen rdf:value it's been bad practice, destroying the "beauty" of RDF.

Peter Patel-Schneider: Every time I've seen rdf:value it's been bad practice, destroying the "beauty" of RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:45:19 <webr3> it's like <a href="boo">, untyped

Nathan Rixham: it's like <a href="boo">, untyped

12:45:19 <pchampin> @sandro the example in the RDF primer is a bad one :-( (weight)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: @sandro the example in the RDF primer is a bad one :-( (weight)

12:45:30 <cmatheus> pfps: rdf:value is the same as rdf:thispropertydoesn'tmeana*?/thing

Peter Patel-Schneider: rdf:value is the same as rdf:thispropertydoesn'tmeana*?/thing

12:45:38 <cmatheus> sandro:  is this resolved?

Sandro Hawke: is this resolved?

12:45:47 <sandro> pfps: I'm not formally objecting to this proposal.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm not formally objecting to this proposal. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:45:59 <Zakim> -Meeting_Room

Zakim IRC Bot: -Meeting_Room

12:46:00 <webr3> should it a couple of new properties be defined for common uses of rdf:value ..

Nathan Rixham: should it a couple of new properties be defined for common uses of rdf:value ..

12:46:03 <gavinc> ah

Gavin Carothers: ah

12:46:08 <gavinc> and there goes the phone

Gavin Carothers: and there goes the phone

12:46:09 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is noisy?

12:46:10 <cmatheus> cygri:  is there some text on good use of rdf:value?

Richard Cyganiak: is there some text on good use of rdf:value?

12:46:11 <danbri> q+ to note a bug in RDFS spec; it references Primer example 16 -- an example that doesn't even use rdf:value.

Dan Brickley: q+ to note a bug in RDFS spec; it references Primer example 16 -- an example that doesn't even use rdf:value.

12:46:17 <sandro> Guus: I disagree with Peter's characterization

Guus Schreiber: I disagree with Peter's characterization [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:46:22 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (4%)

Zakim IRC Bot: Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (4%)

12:46:23 <sandro> davidwood: As do I.

David Wood: As do I. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:46:42 <cmatheus> I would disagree with some of the things in the Primer

I would disagree with some of the things in the Primer

12:46:45 <sandro> cygri: The use for units of measure is extremely questionable.

Richard Cyganiak: The use for units of measure is extremely questionable. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:47:06 <Steven> zakim, code?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, code?

12:47:06 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven

12:47:08 <cmatheus> there's a lot of work on how to measure units of measure, they come up with different solutions

there's a lot of work on how to measure units of measure, they come up with different solutions

12:47:13 <gavinc> No, I can not hear.

Gavin Carothers: No, I can not hear.

12:47:35 <cmatheus> Sandro: meeting room got hung up on

Sandro Hawke: meeting room got hung up on

12:47:53 <sandro> s/Sandor/Sandro/

Sandro Hawke: s/Sandor/Sandro/ (warning: replacement failed)

12:48:12 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room

Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room

12:48:50 <cmatheus> cygri: if you just use rdf:value and have addition properties hanging off of value telling you what the value means, that's bad

Richard Cyganiak: if you just use rdf:value and have addition properties hanging off of value telling you what the value means, that's bad

12:49:48 <yvesr> :fft rdf:value "..."

Yves Raimond: :fft rdf:value "..."

12:50:03 <cmatheus> the Primer leads people into bad modeling and we should do something about it

the Primer leads people into bad modeling and we should do something about it

12:50:11 <sandro> cygri: The primer gives bad modeling advice, and I don't like that.

Richard Cyganiak: The primer gives bad modeling advice, and I don't like that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:50:14 <pchampin> +1 cygri

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 cygri

12:50:16 <yvesr> :fft :derived_from :signal .

Yves Raimond: :fft :derived_from :signal .

12:50:20 <yvesr> all good practice, imho

Yves Raimond: all good practice, imho

12:50:21 <cmatheus> guus:  we can close this and open a new issue about the Primer

Guus Schreiber: we can close this and open a new issue about the Primer

12:50:25 <NickH> yvesr: so avoid repeating very large literal values?

Nicholas Humfrey: yvesr, so avoid repeating very large literal values?

12:50:30 <cmatheus> cygri: okay

Richard Cyganiak: okay

12:50:37 <yvesr> NickH, yep

Yves Raimond: NickH, yep

12:50:49 <gavinc> -q

Gavin Carothers: -q

12:50:53 <yvesr> s/yvesr:/yvesr,/
12:51:22 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-27, not marking rdf:value as archaic, but with the understand that the modeling advice in RDF Primer will be revisited.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-27, not marking rdf:value as archaic, but with the understand that the modeling advice in RDF Primer will be revisited.

12:51:26 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

12:51:28 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

12:51:37 <danbri> q?

Dan Brickley: q?

12:51:39 <danbri> ack danbri

Dan Brickley: ack danbri

12:51:39 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to note a bug in RDFS spec; it references Primer example 16 -- an example that doesn't even use rdf:value.

Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to note a bug in RDFS spec; it references Primer example 16 -- an example that doesn't even use rdf:value.

12:51:44 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

12:51:47 <danbri> ahh, i forgot already

Dan Brickley: ahh, i forgot already

12:51:49 <cygri> -0

Richard Cyganiak: -0

12:51:59 <davidwood> Dublin Core uses rdf:value in the same manner as the examples in the RDF spec.  I think it is therefore compliant.

David Wood: Dublin Core uses rdf:value in the same manner as the examples in the RDF spec. I think it is therefore compliant.

12:52:00 <AZ> +0

Antoine Zimmermann: +0

12:52:00 <danbri> action danbri danbri, you wanted to note a bug in RDFS spec; it references Primer example 16 -- an example that doesn't even use rdf:value.

Dan Brickley: action danbri danbri, you wanted to note a bug in RDFS spec; it references Primer example 16 -- an example that doesn't even use rdf:value.

12:52:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-33 - Danbri, you wanted to note a bug in RDFS spec; it references Primer example 16 -- an example that doesn't even use rdf:value. [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-04-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-33 - Danbri, you wanted to note a bug in RDFS spec; it references Primer example 16 -- an example that doesn't even use rdf:value. [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-04-21].

12:52:05 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

12:52:27 <cmatheus> sandro: can put an Action on Richard to review primer

Sandro Hawke: can put an Action on Richard to review primer

12:52:58 <cmatheus> cygri:  I think there is a technical issue about a bug in the rdf Primer about advice on use of rdf:value

Richard Cyganiak: I think there is a technical issue about a bug in the rdf Primer about advice on use of rdf:value

12:53:23 <cmatheus> guus: could result in Primer ignoring rdf:value

Guus Schreiber: could result in Primer ignoring rdf:value

12:53:33 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-27, not marking rdf:value as archaic, but with the understand that the modeling advice in RDF Primer will be revisited.

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-27, not marking rdf:value as archaic, but with the understand that the modeling advice in RDF Primer will be revisited.

12:54:17 <cmatheus> sandro:  only plan to spend another 35 minutes here

Sandro Hawke: only plan to spend another 35 minutes here

12:54:28 <cmatheus> those were all the ones marked as Archic

those were all the ones marked as Archaic

12:54:43 <cmatheus> s/Archic/Archaic/
12:54:43 <FabGandon> issue-6?

Fabien Gandon: ISSUE-6?

12:54:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-6 -- Handling RDF Errata -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-6 -- Handling RDF Errata -- open

12:54:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/6

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/6

12:55:03 <FabGandon> issue-7?

Fabien Gandon: ISSUE-7?

12:55:04 <trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- Leftover issues from the RDF Core WG -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-7 -- Leftover issues from the RDF Core WG -- open

12:55:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/7

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/7

12:55:12 <cmatheus> ivan:  issue 6: handling of Errata

Ivan Herman: ISSUE-6: handling of Errata

12:55:14 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/errata

Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/errata

12:55:29 <cmatheus> we have to have a mechanism not to forget these

we have to have a mechanism not to forget these

12:55:38 <mischat> this related to danbri's suggestion of going through the archives

Mischa Tuffield: this relates to danbri's suggestion of going through the archives

12:55:46 <mischat> s/related/relates/
12:56:01 <cmatheus> nothing earthshakingly major

nothing earthshakingly major

12:56:24 <cmatheus>  issue-7: some issues left open from previous working group

ISSUE-7: some issues left open from previous working group

12:56:24 <trackbot> ISSUE-7 Leftover issues from the RDF Core WG notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-7 Leftover issues from the RDF Core WG notes added

12:56:45 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#/%23futures

Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#/%23futures

12:56:53 <cmatheus> danbri:  brief comment on list

Dan Brickley: brief comment on list

12:57:07 <cmatheus> some were engineering hacks, left for next group

some were engineering hacks, left for next group

12:57:20 <webr3> +1

Nathan Rixham: +1

12:57:21 <cmatheus> ivan: we still need to go through them

Ivan Herman: we still need to go through them

12:57:34 <cmatheus> davidwood: propose a telecom to discuss these

David Wood: propose a telecom to discuss these

12:57:40 <yvesr> http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfms-literalsubjects :)

Yves Raimond: http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfms-literalsubjects :)

12:57:47 <cmatheus> pfps: someone should go through them ahead of time

Peter Patel-Schneider: someone should go through them ahead of time

12:57:59 <cmatheus> davidwood: I volunteer to do that

David Wood: I volunteer to do that

12:58:17 <cmatheus> ivan: IRI versus URI story

Ivan Herman: IRI versus URI story

12:58:18 <sandro> ACTION: wood prepare resolutions to dispose of each of the leftover items, http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#/%23futures

ACTION: wood prepare resolutions to dispose of each of the leftover items, http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#/%23futures

12:58:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-34 - Prepare resolutions to dispose of each of the leftover items, http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#/%23futures [on David Wood - due 2011-04-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-34 - Prepare resolutions to dispose of each of the leftover items, http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#/%23futures [on David Wood - due 2011-04-21].

12:58:25 <cmatheus> frankly I am lost with the details

frankly I am lost with the details

12:58:53 <gavinc> Jeremy had something on what needed to be updated with the IRIs, but I seem to have miss placed it.

Gavin Carothers: Jeremy had something on what needed to be updated with the IRIs, but I seem to have miss placed it.

12:58:54 <cmatheus> Andy and Eric know a lot about that

Andy and Eric know a lot about that

12:58:59 <FabGandon> issue-8?

Fabien Gandon: ISSUE-8?

12:58:59 <trackbot> ISSUE-8 -- Incorporate IRI-s into the RDF documents -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-8 -- Incorporate IRI-s into the RDF documents -- open

12:58:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/8

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/8

12:59:40 <cmatheus> sandro:  we want to look at every where we say something about URI and replace it with IRI

Sandro Hawke: we want to look at every where we say something about URI and replace it with IRI

12:59:53 <ivan> The IRI Spec[1] is from 2005, and it may be necessary to retrofit it to RDF. Eg, what is the relationship between "http://xn--rsum-bpad.example.org/" and "http://xn--rsum-bpad.example.org/"? Are they the same resource or not? Note that SPARQL has something on that[2]...

Ivan Herman: The IRI Spec[1] is from 2005, and it may be necessary to retrofit it to RDF. Eg, what is the relationship between "http://xn--rsum-bpad.example.org/" and "http://xn--rsum-bpad.example.org/"? Are they the same resource or not? Note that SPARQL has something on that[2]...

13:00:39 <gavinc> Jeremy thought there were a few when we spoke about it. But again, I've missplaced the record of that conversation

Gavin Carothers: Jeremy thought there were a few when we spoke about it. But again, I've missplaced the record of that conversation

13:00:51 <sandro> "http://résumé.example.org" and "http://xn--rsum-bpad.example.org"?

Sandro Hawke: "http://résumé.example.org" and "http://xn--rsum-bpad.example.org"?

13:01:03 <cmatheus> ivan:  (showing on the screen an issue with url's in irc)

Ivan Herman: (showing on the screen an issue with url's in irc)

13:01:37 <cmatheus> are the displayed iri's refereing to same resource or not?

are the displayed iri's refereing to same resource or not?

13:02:10 <cmatheus> cygri:  two iri's are identifcal if the characters are the same, except in a number of cases...

Richard Cyganiak: two iri's are identical if the characters are the same, except in a number of cases...

13:02:24 <cmatheus> s/identifcal/identical/
13:02:25 <davidwood> q+

David Wood: q+

13:02:58 <cmatheus> the one uri can be normalized into the other

the one uri can be normalized into the other

13:03:25 <cmatheus> guus: if it's a problem we can flag it but's it's not in the realm of where we should go

Guus Schreiber: if it's a problem we can flag it but's it's not in the realm of where we should go

13:03:44 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#syntaxTerms

Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#syntaxTerms

13:03:47 <cmatheus> mischat: if we go this way we will need to have best practise note on this

Mischa Tuffield: if we go this way we will need to have best practise note on this

13:03:53 <cmatheus> sandro: example?

Sandro Hawke: example?

13:03:55 <sandro> mischat: back-tick is valid in URI-References but not IRIs.

Mischa Tuffield: back-tick is valid in URI-References but not IRIs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:04:08 <cmatheus> mischat: a back tick.  caused our app to go down.

Mischa Tuffield: a back tick. caused our app to go down.

13:04:25 <cmatheus> davidwood: I've seen issues with that, I think it was with back tick.

David Wood: I've seen issues with that, I think it was with back tick.

13:04:36 <gavinc> for reference, IRI spec: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987

Gavin Carothers: for reference, IRI spec: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987

13:04:46 <cmatheus> guus: objet to description of issues -- it's outside of scope

Guus Schreiber: objet to description of issues -- it's outside of scope

13:05:11 <pchampin> from the charter (required section): Clarify the usage of IRI references for RDF resources

Pierre-Antoine Champin: from the charter (required section): Clarify the usage of IRI references for RDF resources

13:05:18 <cmatheus> mischat: rdf group was guessing at what iris would look like

Mischa Tuffield: rdf group was guessing at what iris would look like

13:05:32 <cmatheus> davidwood: issue from implementation standdpoint

David Wood: issue from implementation standdpoint

13:05:50 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

13:06:00 <cmatheus> when trying to index rdf, if you have to do a lot of checking, implementers will screem, Talis for one.

when trying to index rdf, if you have to do a lot of checking, implementers will screem, Talis for one.

13:06:00 <ivan> ack davidwood

Ivan Herman: ack davidwood

13:06:27 <cmatheus> if we said an iri and uri were equivalent that would cause serious practical problems

if we said an iri and uri were equivalent that would cause serious practical problems

13:06:43 <cmatheus> steveH: I understand what you're saying but don't understand the technical problem

Steve Harris: I understand what you're saying but don't understand the technical problem

13:07:04 <gavinc> +q

Gavin Carothers: +q

13:07:15 <cmatheus> davidwood: when ingesting rdf you must say whether this uri is equivalent to some other uri's in your system

David Wood: when ingesting rdf you must say whether this uri is equivalent to some other uri's in your system

13:07:15 <sandro> SteveH: Every triplestore I know just uses utf-8, so the question is which chars are allowed.

Steve Harris: Every triplestore I know just uses utf-8, so the question is which chars are allowed. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:07:29 <cmatheus> steveh: it just changes your grammar

Steve Harris: it just changes your grammar

13:07:35 <cmatheus> davidwood: you may be right

David Wood: you may be right

13:07:42 <cmatheus> SteveH: I'm pretty sure I am

Steve Harris: I'm pretty sure I am

13:07:43 <ivan> ack davidwood

Ivan Herman: ack davidwood

13:07:47 <sandro> SteveH: SPARQL says they have to be the same normalized utf-8 byte string.

Steve Harris: SPARQL says they have to be the same normalized utf-8 byte string. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:07:50 <mischat> q+

Mischa Tuffield: q+

13:07:54 <cmatheus> davidwood: I'm talking about in SPARQL

David Wood: I'm talking about in SPARQL

13:08:00 <cmatheus> the specs say different things

the specs say different things

13:08:07 <cmatheus> cygri:  I don't think they do

Richard Cyganiak: I don't think they do

13:08:23 <cmatheus> in RDF world things are conistent

in RDF world things are conistent

13:08:37 <cmatheus> s/sconistent/consistent/

s/sconistent/consistent/ (warning: replacement failed)

13:08:51 <mischat> i don't think they are consistent, you can a SPARQL INSERT triples which you cant CONSTRUCT as valid RDF/XML

Mischa Tuffield: i don't think they are consistent, you can a SPARQL INSERT triples which you cant CONSTRUCT as valid RDF/XML

13:08:55 <cmatheus> there's no way you can align this with the rest of the web architecture

there's no way you can align this with the rest of the web architecture

13:09:08 <SteveH> mischat, no you cant

Steve Harris: mischat, no you cant

13:09:08 <cmatheus> but can give recommendations.

but can give recommendations.

13:09:16 <SteveH> mischat, oh, wait, not maybe that's right

Steve Harris: mischat, oh, wait, not maybe that's right

13:09:18 <sandro> cygri: We can (and should) give recommendations to publishers about how to mint URIs to avoid these problems, like don't say :80 and dont use uppercase URI scheme or host names.

Richard Cyganiak: We can (and should) give recommendations to publishers about how to mint URIs to avoid these problems, like don't say :80 and dont use uppercase URI scheme or host names. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:09:22 <mischat> it is right SteveH

Mischa Tuffield: it is right SteveH

13:09:26 <cmatheus> if you avoid certain things then you will get same result

if you avoid certain things then you will get same result

13:09:32 <davidwood>  correction:  I was *not* talking about SPARQL, but Turtle or other forms of ingesting into a store, and then only in the case where we decided that a given IRI was equivalent to a different character string URI.

David Wood: correction: I was *not* talking about SPARQL, but Turtle or other forms of ingesting into a store, and then only in the case where we decided that a given IRI was equivalent to a different character string URI.

13:09:35 <cmatheus> worth writing up as an aid to users of rdf

worth writing up as an aid to users of rdf

13:09:51 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

13:09:52 <cmatheus> ivan: this discussion went beyond what I intended

Ivan Herman: this discussion went beyond what I intended

13:09:57 <davidwood> ack ivan

David Wood: ack ivan

13:10:38 <cmatheus> but look what happend when we just but the same iri's through two different systems and got very different results

but look what happend when we just but the same iri's through two different systems and got very different results

13:10:48 <cmatheus> this is something we need to address

this is something we need to address

13:10:49 <gavinc> I think the section in question is: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-Graph-URIref

Gavin Carothers: I think the section in question is: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-Graph-URIref

13:10:56 <cmatheus> guus: this is not something we're going to solve

Guus Schreiber: this is not something we're going to solve

13:11:12 <mischat> this is the IRI RFC http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt

Mischa Tuffield: this is the IRI RFC http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt

13:11:19 <gavinc> The RFC lists a set of normalization methods http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987

Gavin Carothers: The RFC lists a set of normalization methods http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987

13:11:29 <cmatheus> ivan: why?  there is a document that says how to implement a system that will do the right thing

Ivan Herman: why? there is a document that says how to implement a system that will do the right thing

13:11:45 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

13:11:46 <cmatheus> davidwood: what is the sate of iri's in the standard (RC)

David Wood: what is the sate of iri's in the standard (RC)

13:11:58 <cmatheus> cygri: it's implemented in all browsers

Richard Cyganiak: it's implemented in all browsers

13:12:19 <davidwood> ack gavinc

David Wood: ack gavinc

13:12:24 <cmatheus> davidwood: that's different from the state of the standard

David Wood: that's different from the state of the standard

13:13:01 <cmatheus> gavinc: we went through this a month ago but I can't find the work we did -- not sure if it got lost in the shuffle

Gavin Carothers: we went through this a month ago but I can't find the work we did -- not sure if it got lost in the shuffle

13:13:15 <cmatheus> we didn't think the spec was as brioken as some of the people are saying

we didn't think the spec was as brioken as some of the people are saying

13:13:22 <cmatheus> sorry, I don't remember the details

sorry, I don't remember the details

13:13:36 <sandro> davidwood, it's a PROPOSED STANDARD, per http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcxx00.html#STDbySTD

Sandro Hawke: davidwood, it's a PROPOSED STANDARD, per http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcxx00.html#STDbySTD

13:13:48 <sandro> (like almost everything)

Sandro Hawke: (like almost everything)

13:14:17 <cmatheus> mischat: the issue I have is I can issert certain triples, with content with a back tick, and then retrive it and I get something different.

Mischa Tuffield: the issue I have is I can issert certain triples, with content with a back tick, and then retrive it and I get something different.

13:14:50 <cmatheus> ivan: there are cetrtain charcters that you cannot put into a xml doc, but in turtle it would not be a problem

Ivan Herman: there are cetrtain charcters that you cannot put into a xml doc, but in turtle it would not be a problem

13:14:54 <sandro> (although URI  RFC-3986 is actually a "STANDARD" STD-66 )

Sandro Hawke: (although URI RFC-3986 is actually a "STANDARD" STD-66 )

13:15:05 <cmatheus> pfps: turtle is currently stuck at uri's

Peter Patel-Schneider: turtle is currently stuck at uri's

13:15:45 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

13:15:54 <cmatheus> gavinc: I don't think turtle is cemented to uris

Gavin Carothers: I don't think turtle is cemented to uris

13:16:03 <davidwood> IRIs seem to be an IETF standards-track (but not standard) RFC (3987), which does not expire.  There is a newer proposal, which will expire in Sep 2011 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-iri-3987bis/)

David Wood: IRIs seem to be an IETF standards-track (but not standard) RFC (3987), which does not expire. There is a newer proposal, which will expire in Sep 2011 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-iri-3987bis/)

13:16:07 <cmatheus> gramar refers to iris

gramar refers to iris

13:16:08 <Guus> ack mischat

Guus Schreiber: ack mischat

13:16:37 <cmatheus> sandor: we should revisit this when Eric and Andy (perhaps Jeremy) are around

Sandro Hawke: we should revisit this when Eric and Andy (perhaps Jeremy) are around

13:16:43 <cmatheus> ivan: issue 9

Ivan Herman: ISSUE-9

13:16:54 <sandro> s/sandor/sandro/
13:17:01 <cmatheus> small thing for Pat and Peter from der Horst

small thing for Pat and Peter from der Horst

13:17:04 <cygri> davidwood: that's the same as the URI RFC

David Wood: that's the same as the URI RFC [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ]

13:17:18 <cmatheus> an obvious thing that the editor has to take care of

an obvious thing that the editor has to take care of

13:17:30 <cmatheus> issue 11, more complicated

ISSUE-11, more complicated

13:18:19 <cmatheus> docs published by other wg's that extended the rdf semantics or contained elements related to rdf semantics

docs published by other wg's that extended the rdf semantics or contained elements related to rdf semantics

13:18:45 <cmatheus> implementors focusing on rdf have to visit all docs

implementors focusing on rdf have to visit all docs

13:19:07 <cmatheus> rdf plain literal added vocabulary

rdf plain literal added vocabulary

13:19:32 <cmatheus> POWDER likewise

POWDER likewise

13:19:46 <FabGandon> issue-11?

Fabien Gandon: ISSUE-11?

13:19:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-11 -- Reconciliation of various, semantics-oriented documents with the core RDF ones -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-11 -- Reconciliation of various, semantics-oriented documents with the core RDF ones -- open

13:19:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/11

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/11

13:20:14 <cmatheus> SPARQL 1.1 has Entailment Regimes

SPARQL 1.1 has Entailment Regimes

13:20:25 <cmatheus> something we should look at

something we should look at

13:20:36 <cmatheus> guus: is there anything we need to do now

Guus Schreiber: is there anything we need to do now

13:20:36 <danbri> ( @davidwood, i made a first cut at suggesting closure of the old RDFCore issues: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0317.html )

Dan Brickley: ( @davidwood, i made a first cut at suggesting closure of the old RDFCore issues: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0317.html )

13:20:42 <cmatheus> ivan: probably not

Ivan Herman: probably not

13:20:56 <cmatheus> guus: let's leave this open but ensure it gets resolved

Guus Schreiber: let's leave this open but ensure it gets resolved

13:21:07 <cmatheus> ivan: string literals handled

Ivan Herman: string literals handled

13:21:31 <cmatheus> xml literals discussed and still open

xml literals discussed and still open

13:21:36 <cmatheus> that's all

that's all

13:23:31 <cmatheus> ivan: (discussion about POWDER extension to rdf schema...)

Ivan Herman: (discussion about POWDER extension to rdf schema...)

13:24:10 <cmatheus> guus: bad idea that there are many different groups dealing with these issues

Guus Schreiber: bad idea that there are many different groups dealing with these issues

13:25:22 <cmatheus> ivan:  not proposing to do any extra work -- need to make references to the other sources of relevant information

Ivan Herman: not proposing to do any extra work -- need to make references to the other sources of relevant information

13:25:45 <cmatheus> guus: if we need to do more than references than this needs to be handled at a higher organizational level

Guus Schreiber: if we need to do more than references than this needs to be handled at a higher organizational level

13:26:16 <cmatheus> guus: suggest 20 minute break

Guus Schreiber: suggest 20 minute break

13:26:40 <cmatheus> in final session. short planning round for next F2F

in final session. short planning round for next F2F

13:26:52 <cmatheus> will come back and discuss document set

will come back and discuss document set

13:27:11 <cmatheus> and candidate docs

and candidate docs

13:27:13 <davidwood> danbri: Thanks.  That list is very helpful.  I'll start with your list and see if I have any different ideas.  I plan to add that discussion to the agenda for next Wed.

Dan Brickley: Thanks. That list is very helpful. I'll start with your list and see if I have any different ideas. I plan to add that discussion to the agenda for next Wed. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

13:27:21 <Zakim> -webr3

Zakim IRC Bot: -webr3

13:27:38 <gavinc> ?

Gavin Carothers: ?

13:27:42 <gavinc> I heard my name?

Gavin Carothers: I heard my name?

13:28:00 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

13:28:07 <gavinc> or not ;)

Gavin Carothers: or not ;)

13:36:25 <mischat> this is the excerpt from the IRI rfc which highlights my issue with roundtripping RDF

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

Mischa Tuffield: this is the excerpt from the IRI rfc which highlights my issue with roundtripping RDF

13:36:26 <mischat> http://pastebin.com/ZiQHQ2ab

Mischa Tuffield: http://pastebin.com/ZiQHQ2ab

13:39:42 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

13:48:11 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aacc

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aacc

13:48:18 <FabGandon> I wonder if it wouldn't be an easyer position to consider that every IRI loaded in a triple store is first turned into its ASCII version and then treated as the URI before including the character by character comparison.

Fabien Gandon: I wonder if it wouldn't be an easyer position to consider that every IRI loaded in a triple store is first turned into its ASCII version and then treated as the URI before including the character by character comparison.

13:48:50 <AlexHall> zakim, +1.443.212.aacc is me

Alex Hall: zakim, +1.443.212.aacc is me

13:48:50 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

13:49:25 <gavinc> No, the spec is already clear that URIs are unicode

Gavin Carothers: No, the spec is already clear that URIs are unicode

13:49:44 <gavinc> "A URI reference within an RDF graph (an RDF URI reference) is a Unicode string"

Gavin Carothers: "A URI reference within an RDF graph (an RDF URI reference) is a Unicode string"

13:50:46 <cygri> scribe: cygri

(Scribe set to Richard Cyganiak)

13:50:51 <cygri> scribenick: cygri
13:50:53 <FabGandon> still we could have the transformation before and always work on the transformed version, no?

Fabien Gandon: still we could have the transformation before and always work on the transformed version, no?

13:51:04 <zwu2> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

13:51:04 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted

13:51:24 <cygri> Topic: Next F2F meeting

5. Next F2F meeting

13:52:08 <cygri> guus: there's pressure towards balance between european and north american locations

Guus Schreiber: there's pressure towards balance between european and north american locations

13:52:01 <cygri> LeeF: I'd recommend considering the sort of 2-site w/ video conference F2F that has been successful for SPARQL WG.

Lee Feigenbaum: I'd recommend considering the sort of 2-site w/ video conference F2F that has been successful for SPARQL WG.

13:52:15 <cygri> ... The problem is that for time zones that only really works for US East Coast + UK (or so)

... The problem is that for time zones that only really works for US East Coast + UK (or so)

13:52:23 <cygri> ivan: W3C will have technical plenary week

Ivan Herman: W3C will have technical plenary week

13:52:33 <cygri> ... where several WGs meet

... where several WGs meet

13:52:32 <cygri> ... http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/

... http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/

13:52:45 <cygri> ... Santa Clara Marriott, Santa Clara, California, (Silicon Valley) USA  31 October to 4 November 2011

... Santa Clara Marriott, Santa Clara, California, (Silicon Valley) USA 31 October to 4 November 2011

13:53:10 <cygri> ... I try to convince the RDF apps WG to have their F2F there

... I try to convince the RDF apps WG to have their F2F there

13:53:38 <cygri> ... downside is that it's the week after ISWC

... downside is that it's the week after ISWC

13:54:09 <cygri> davidwood: we might want to have the F2F meetings earlier rather than later

David Wood: we might want to have the F2F meetings earlier rather than later

13:54:47 <cygri> ivan: july/august not a good time for europeans

Ivan Herman: july/august not a good time for europeans

13:56:31 <cygri> guus: suppose we would do it at TPAC, for whom would that be an obstacle?

Guus Schreiber: suppose we would do it at TPAC, for whom would that be an obstacle?

13:57:17 <cygri> SteveH: time difference is a problem

Steve Harris: time difference is a problem

13:58:09 <cygri> davidwood: I question whether we should have a west coast f2f

David Wood: I question whether we should have a west coast f2f

13:57:47 <gavinc> Sigh.

Gavin Carothers: Sigh.

13:58:11 <cygri> zwu2: CA in US sounds great

Zhe Wu: CA in US sounds great

13:58:26 <cygri> sandro: how about right before ISWC?

Sandro Hawke: how about right before ISWC?

13:59:03 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aadd

13:59:31 <Souri> zakim, aadd is me

Souripriya Das: zakim, aadd is me

13:59:31 <Zakim> +Souri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it

13:59:57 <cygri> ivan: other WGs: sparql, rdb2rdf, provenance, government linked data

Ivan Herman: other WGs: sparql, rdb2rdf, provenance, government linked data

14:00:38 <cygri> steveh: east coast much easier than west coast

Steve Harris: east coast much easier than west coast

14:00:54 <cygri> sandro: i'm happy to host at W3C, if i can find a room

Sandro Hawke: i'm happy to host at MIT, if i can find a room

14:01:02 <cygri> s/W3C/MIT/
14:01:17 <cygri> pfps: happy to host at bell labs

Peter Patel-Schneider: happy to host at bell labs

14:01:56 <cygri> guus: so, east coast location, 1st half of october?

Guus Schreiber: so, east coast location, 1st half of october?

14:02:21 <cygri> pfps: better earlier, end of september (more distance to tpac)

Peter Patel-Schneider: better earlier, end of september (more distance to tpac)

14:02:44 <cygri> guus: week of 26th september?

Guus Schreiber: week of 26th september?

14:02:54 <cygri> SteveH: clash with SemTech London

Steve Harris: clash with SemTech London

14:03:11 <cygri> FabGandon: week of 12th of september?

Fabien Gandon: week of 12th of september?

14:04:03 <cygri> SteveH: we could host at Garlik

Steve Harris: we could host at Garlik

14:04:16 <cygri> pfps: find someone at oxford?

Peter Patel-Schneider: find someone at oxford?

14:06:11 <cygri> guus: week of 3rd october, boston?

Guus Schreiber: week of 3rd october, boston?

14:06:33 <cygri> sandro: remote participants, are you likely to be able to make this?

Sandro Hawke: remote participants, are you likely to be able to make this?

14:04:18 <cygri> gavinc: MIT sounds better then Europe

Gavin Carothers: MIT sounds better then Europe

14:06:16 <cygri> ... TPAC sounds the best still

... TPAC sounds the best still

14:06:57 <cygri> ... I can travel if it's in the US; europe less likely

... I can travel if it's in the US; europe less likely

14:06:25 <danbri> (I don't know what I can attend nor where, but prefer east coast as most plausible)

Dan Brickley: (I don't know what I can attend nor where, but prefer east coast as most plausible)

14:07:04 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

14:07:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, LeeF, AZ, Meeting_Room, zwu2 (muted), AlexHall, Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, LeeF, AZ, Meeting_Room, zwu2 (muted), AlexHall, Souri

14:07:12 <cygri> LeeF: Yes

Lee Feigenbaum: Yes

14:07:44 <cygri> ... Possibly if it were scheduled with our input :)

... Possibly if it were scheduled with our input :)

14:07:57 <cygri> ... The challenge this time was the date being picked without input, and hving existingcommitments

... The challenge this time was the date being picked without input, and hving existingcommitments

14:07:13 <cygri> Souri: East Coast is the best for me. Europe is doubtful.

Souripriya Das: East Coast is the best for me. Europe is doubtful.

14:07:19 <zwu2_> zakim, unmute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, unmute me

14:07:19 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, zwu2_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

14:07:58 <cygri> davidwood: to the remote americans: would you be able to come to a f2f in europe in the future?

David Wood: to the remote americans: would you be able to come to a f2f in europe in the future?

14:08:00 <cygri> zwu2: CA is fine. East coast will do too

Zhe Wu: CA is fine. East coast will do too

14:08:06 <cygri> AlexHall: No, I don't anticipate being able to travel to Europe

Alex Hall: No, I don't anticipate being able to travel to Europe

14:08:17 <cygri> souri: east cost is best, europe problematic

Souripriya Das: east cost is best, europe problematic

14:08:29 <cygri> AZ: I don't know if will be able to come to the US

Antoine Zimmermann: I don't know if will be able to come to the US

14:08:40 <cygri> ... My situation after August is quite unclear

... My situation after August is quite unclear

14:08:56 <cygri> davidwood: this tells me we should alternate meetings between europe and US

David Wood: this tells me we should alternate meetings between europe and US

14:09:04 <cygri> ivan: tpac still best

Ivan Herman: tpac still best

14:09:37 <cygri> guus: i'll set up a poll

Guus Schreiber: i'll set up a poll

14:09:59 <cygri> Souri: We had a very good setup for SPARQL f2f last time using video connections between Cambridge/MIT and Oxford.

Souripriya Das: We had a very good setup for SPARQL f2f last time using video connections between Cambridge/MIT and Oxford.

14:10:21 <cygri> ACTION: guus to set up poll regarding F2F date

ACTION: guus to set up poll regarding F2F date

14:10:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Set up poll regarding F2F date [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-04-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-35 - Set up poll regarding F2F date [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-04-21].

14:10:26 <cygri> gavinc: 2 video remote sites would also be excellent

Gavin Carothers: 2 video remote sites would also be excellent

14:11:59 <cygri> guus: options will be: US east cost: Boston or Murray Hill

Guus Schreiber: options will be: US east cost: Boston or Murray Hill

14:12:07 <cygri> ... and TPAC

... and TPAC

14:12:29 <zwu2_> is CA a choice at all?

Zhe Wu: is CA a choice at all?

14:13:00 <gavinc> CA, US ... not CA Canada

Gavin Carothers: CA, US ... not CA Canada

14:12:53 <gavinc> well

Gavin Carothers: well

14:12:43 <gavinc> TPAC is CA

Gavin Carothers: TPAC is CA

14:13:11 <zwu2_> yes CA, US

Zhe Wu: yes CA, US

14:12:40 <cygri> Topic: Scribing

6. Scribing

14:12:53 <cygri> sandro: would be helpful if scribes could use topics and subtopics

Sandro Hawke: would be helpful if scribes could use topics and subtopics

14:12:53 <cygri> (IRC commands for scribe are “Topic: xyz” and “Subtopic: xyzxyz”)

(IRC commands for scribe are “Topic: xyz” and “Subtopic: xyzxyz”)

14:13:10 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-04-13 and http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-04-14

Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-04-13 and http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-04-14

14:14:19 <cygri> Topic: RDF document set and finding editors

7. RDF document set and finding editors

14:14:29 <cygri> guus: this was on telecon agenda for a long time

Guus Schreiber: this was on telecon agenda for a long time

14:14:43 <cygri> ... strong preference for not creating completely new set of docs

... strong preference for not creating completely new set of docs

14:14:50 <cygri> ... but update the existing RDF Core documents

... but update the existing RDF Core documents

14:15:03 <cygri> ... have new editors and update these documents

... have new editors and update these documents

14:15:25 <cygri> sandro: seems to depend on how big the changes are

Sandro Hawke: seems to depend on how big the changes are

14:15:49 <cygri> guus: for instance RDF Concepts would have to add sections on terminology and other things

Guus Schreiber: for instance RDF Concepts would have to add sections on terminology and other things

14:16:04 <cygri> ... hopefully not too many changes to RDF Semantics

... hopefully not too many changes to RDF Semantics

14:16:12 <cygri> ... primer should be completely new rewritten version

... primer should be completely new rewritten version

14:16:19 <cygri> ... test cases we have to see

... test cases we have to see

14:16:51 <cygri> ivan: test cases were REC in 2004. i don't see why they should be

Ivan Herman: test cases were REC in 2004. i don't see why they should be

14:17:16 <cygri> .. formally, would that mean we re-use the same short names?

.. formally, would that mean we re-use the same short names?

14:17:31 <cygri> ... so would they formally be new versions of the same documents?

... so would they formally be new versions of the same documents?

14:18:30 <cygri> cygri: we should use the same short names to avoid having multiple REC documents floating around

Richard Cyganiak: we should use the same short names to avoid having multiple REC documents floating around

14:18:35 <cygri> ivan: what does SPARQL do?

Ivan Herman: what does SPARQL do?

14:18:36 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

14:18:48 <cygri> steveh: (scribe got lost. not yet decided?)

Steve Harris: (scribe got lost. not yet decided?)

14:18:57 <Zakim> +AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ

14:19:15 <cygri> guus: good guideline: substantial changes => new short name

Guus Schreiber: good guideline: substantial changes => new short name

14:19:28 <cygri> steveh: in SPARQL isn't decided yet

Steve Harris: in SPARQL isn't decided yet

14:19:43 <cygri> sandro: OWL rewrote everything and new short names

Sandro Hawke: OWL rewrote everything and new short names

14:19:50 <cygri> davidwood: that was not a good idea

David Wood: that was not a good idea

14:20:07 <cygri> guus: i don't hear objections, so let's work on that assumption

Guus Schreiber: i don't hear objections, so let's work on that assumption

14:20:16 <sandro> sandro: sounds like we're just talking about 2nd editions of Recs, not new Recs.

Sandro Hawke: sounds like we're just talking about 2nd editions of Recs, not new Recs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:20:40 <cygri> Subtopic: RDF Concepts

7.1. RDF Concepts

14:20:41 <cygri> guus: these are lots of documents

Guus Schreiber: these are lots of documents

14:21:01 <cygri> ... RDF Concepts. main change will be graph terminology

... RDF Concepts. main change will be graph terminology

14:21:40 <cygri> ivan: and archaization? and XMLLiteral?

Ivan Herman: and archaization? and XMLLiteral?

14:22:37 <cygri> cygri: i can be editor on that one

Richard Cyganiak: i can be editor on that one

14:22:41 <cygri> davidwood: me too

David Wood: me too

14:22:41 <sandro> guus: eds, Richard and David

Guus Schreiber: eds, Richard and David [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:22:45 <cygri> Subtopic: RDF Semantics

7.2. RDF Semantics

14:22:48 <cygri> guus: RDF Semantics

Guus Schreiber: RDF Semantics

14:23:29 <cygri> ... ideal would be pfps and PatH

... ideal would be pfps and PatH

14:23:35 <cygri> pfps: ok

Peter Patel-Schneider: ok

14:23:35 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

14:23:40 <sandro> ACTION: guus to ask Pat to be an editor of RDF Semantics

ACTION: guus to ask Pat to be an editor of RDF Semantics

14:23:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Ask Pat to be an editor of RDF Semantics [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-04-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-36 - Ask Pat to be an editor of RDF Semantics [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-04-21].

14:24:00 <cygri> Subtopic: RDF Schema

7.3. RDF Schema

14:24:15 <cygri> guus: RDF Schema

Guus Schreiber: RDF Schema

14:24:29 <sandro> Guus: DanBri, will you edit RDF Vocab?

Guus Schreiber: DanBri, will you edit RDF Vocab? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:24:36 <cygri> danbri: ok

Dan Brickley: ok

14:24:45 <cygri> sandro: can we change the name to "RDF Schema"?

Sandro Hawke: can we change the name to "RDF Schema"?

14:24:57 <sandro> ISSUE: Should we change the title of rdf-schema to use the word "Schema" ?

ISSUE: Should we change the title of rdf-schema to use the word "Schema" ?

14:24:57 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-36 - Should we change the title of rdf-schema to use the word "Schema" ? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/36/edit .

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-36 - Should we change the title of rdf-schema to use the word "Schema" ? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/36/edit .

14:25:00 <cygri> Subtopic: Turtle Syntax

7.4. Turtle Syntax

14:25:31 <cygri> guus: Turtle

Guus Schreiber: Turtle

14:25:39 <cygri> ivan: EricP has volunteered to do that

Ivan Herman: EricP has volunteered to do that

14:26:38 <cygri> mischat: i'm willing to help but might not be able to help much with syntax/grammar

Mischa Tuffield: i'm willing to help but might not be able to help much with syntax/grammar

14:27:00 <cygri> ivan: amount of work on turtle might not be much

Ivan Herman: amount of work on turtle might not be much

14:27:13 <cygri> gavinc: I'd be happy to provide test cases?

Gavin Carothers: I'd be happy to provide test cases?

14:28:43 <cygri> mischat: i'll take it into consideration. if andy wants do do it, i won't feel bad

Mischa Tuffield: i'll take it into consideration. if andy wants do do it, i won't feel bad

14:29:02 <cygri> guus: we need to publish FPWDs soon. turtle obvious candidate

Guus Schreiber: we need to publish FPWDs soon. turtle obvious candidate

14:29:56 <cygri> ... mid-june should be doable

... mid-june should be doable

14:27:19 <danbri> I guess the concept we're going for is "2nd Edition" for most of these? sandro/ivan - is that defined in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules somewhere?

Dan Brickley: I guess the concept we're going for is "2nd Edition" for most of these? sandro/ivan - is that defined in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules somewhere?

14:27:45 <sandro> danbri, yes.

Sandro Hawke: danbri, yes.

14:28:11 <sandro> danbri, I've never done it myself, but I've seen it.

Sandro Hawke: danbri, I've never done it myself, but I've seen it.

14:30:00 <cygri> Subtopic: N-Triples Syntax

7.5. N-Triples Syntax

14:30:32 <cygri> guus: possible other documents: n-triples

Guus Schreiber: possible other documents: n-triples

14:31:08 <cygri> sandro: n-triples might be appendix of turtle, or appendix of test cases

Sandro Hawke: n-triples might be appendix of turtle, or appendix of test cases

14:31:21 <cygri> guus: might be a separate piece of work anyways

Guus Schreiber: might be a separate piece of work anyways

14:31:29 <cygri> ... spread out the responsibilities

... spread out the responsibilities

14:31:58 <cygri> mischat: AndyS's page http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format

Mischa Tuffield: AndyS's page http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format

14:32:01 <cygri> cygri: andy did a wiki page on n-triples

Richard Cyganiak: andy did a wiki page on n-triples

14:33:06 <zwu2_> zakim, unmute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, unmute me

14:33:06 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, zwu2_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

14:34:00 <cygri> sandro: zwu2, can you be ed of n-triples to make sure nothing bad happens to it?

Sandro Hawke: zwu2, can you be ed of n-triples to make sure nothing bad happens to it?

14:34:02 <cygri> zwu2: i can do that

Zhe Wu: i can do that

14:34:08 <zwu2_> zakim, who is here

Zhe Wu: zakim, who is here

14:34:09 <Zakim> zwu2_, you need to end that query with '?'

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2_, you need to end that query with '?'

14:34:14 <zwu2_> zakim, who is here?

Zhe Wu: zakim, who is here?

14:34:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, LeeF, Meeting_Room, zwu2, AlexHall, Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, LeeF, Meeting_Room, zwu2, AlexHall, Souri

14:34:20 <sandro> sandro: does it matter to you, Zhe, whether you are credited as an editor for that work?

Sandro Hawke: does it matter to you, Zhe, whether you are credited as an editor for that work? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:34:27 <sandro> Zhe: I'm okay either way there.

Zhe Wu: I'm okay either way there. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:35:21 <cygri> Souri: I can help on the n-triples -- my org (Oracle) has heavy investment on n-triples

Souripriya Das: I can help on the n-triples -- my org (Oracle) has heavy investment on n-triples

14:34:48 <danbri> (asking informally, I'm told that "Second Editions" typically get their own short-name in /TR/  --- but to check with the webmaster team)

Dan Brickley: (asking informally, I'm told that "Second Editions" typically get their own short-name in /TR/ --- but to check with the webmaster team)

14:35:22 <cygri> Subtopic: RDF/JSON

7.6. RDF/JSON

14:35:23 <cygri> guus: json

Guus Schreiber: json

14:35:24 <cygri> davidwood: i'll take an action to ask talis about a possible editor for the json rdf-to-rdf thing

David Wood: i'll take an action to ask talis about a possible editor for the json rdf-to-rdf thing

14:35:28 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

14:35:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, LeeF, Meeting_Room, zwu2, AlexHall, Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, LeeF, Meeting_Room, zwu2, AlexHall, Souri

14:35:43 <zwu2_> q-

Zhe Wu: q-

14:36:01 <cygri> cygri: souri just volunteered to help on n-triples

Richard Cyganiak: souri just volunteered to help on n-triples

14:36:15 <cygri> guus: anyone else for rdf/json?

Guus Schreiber: anyone else for rdf/json?

14:36:33 <cygri> ivan: only other person i can think of is tomayac

Ivan Herman: only other person i can think of is tomayac

14:36:47 <sandro> action: wood to ask Talis to provide an editor for JSON

ACTION: wood to ask Talis to provide an editor for JSON

14:36:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Ask Talis to provide an editor for JSON [on David Wood - due 2011-04-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-37 - Ask Talis to provide an editor for JSON [on David Wood - due 2011-04-21].

14:36:56 <cygri> ... asking him would  be a good idea

... asking him would be a good idea

14:37:13 <cygri> action: ivan to ask thomas about RDF/JSON editorship

ACTION: ivan to ask thomas about RDF/JSON editorship

14:37:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Ask thomas about RDF/JSON editorship [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-04-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-38 - Ask thomas about RDF/JSON editorship [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-04-21].

14:38:00 <cygri> Subtopic: JSON Recipes Note

7.7. JSON Recipes Note

14:38:10 <cygri> guus: JSON recipes note

Guus Schreiber: JSON recipes note

14:38:43 <cygri> ... we had some volunteers: mishat, NickH, mbrunati

... we had some volunteers: mischat, NickH, mbrunati

14:38:50 <cygri> ... and i'll volunteer one of my postdocs

... and i'll volunteer one of my postdocs

14:38:58 <cygri> yvesr: i want to contribute to that note as well

Yves Raimond: i want to contribute to that note as well

14:39:28 <cygri> s/mishat/mischat/
14:39:35 <cygri> Subtopic: RDF Primer

7.8. RDF Primer

14:39:37 <cygri> guus: rdf primer

Guus Schreiber: rdf primer

14:39:42 <cygri> ... i volunteer

... i volunteer

14:39:54 <cygri> LeeF: I would like to devote time to the rdf primer, though not necessarily as an editor.

Lee Feigenbaum: I would like to devote time to the rdf primer, though not necessarily as an editor.

14:39:59 <cygri> FabGandon: me

Fabien Gandon: me

14:40:05 <cygri> pchampin: me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: me

14:40:18 <cygri> cmatheus: me

Christopher Matheus: me

14:40:56 <cygri> ivan: we need one, max two people to lead it, and perhaps a larger number of contributors

Ivan Herman: we need one, max two people to lead it, and perhaps a larger number of contributors

14:43:03 <mischat> :)

Mischa Tuffield: :)

14:43:27 <davidwood> davidwood: Guus and Fabian to edit the Primer, with many contributors expected.

David Wood: Guus and Fabian to edit the Primer, with many contributors expected. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

14:43:39 <cygri> cygri: so primer will have guus, FabGandon as lead editors, with possibly many contributors

Richard Cyganiak: so primer will have guus, FabGandon as lead editors, with possibly many contributors

14:44:00 <cygri> Subtopic: TriG/N-Quads Syntax

7.9. TriG/N-Quads Syntax

14:45:45 <cygri> cygri: on TriG/N-Quads, probably not a new doc but part of turtle ... i can help there

Richard Cyganiak: on TriG/N-Quads, probably not a new doc but part of turtle ... i can help there

14:46:00 <cygri> Subtopic: RDF/XML Syntax

7.10. RDF/XML Syntax

14:46:16 <cygri> ivan: RDF/XML ... we may not touch it at all, but might want to check with henry

Ivan Herman: RDF/XML ... we may not touch it at all, but might want to check with henry

14:47:33 <cygri> sandro: henry made clear that he won't do the RDF/XML work himself

Sandro Hawke: henry made clear that he won't do the RDF/XML work himself

14:47:48 <cygri> ... are there errata against RDF/XML?

... are there errata against RDF/XML?

14:48:24 <cygri> FabGandon: i'm happy to apply the errata

Fabien Gandon: i'm happy to apply the errata

14:46:18 <zwu2_> I don't hate rdf/xml at all

Zhe Wu: I don't hate rdf/xml at all

14:46:52 <zwu2_> I just don't write manually in rdf/xml much

Zhe Wu: I just don't write manually in rdf/xml much

14:46:59 <mischat> i am a bit of a fan, it has the most robust tooling

Mischa Tuffield: i am a bit of a fan, it has the most robust tooling

14:47:10 <mischat> i dont like writing any rdf by hand

Mischa Tuffield: i dont like writing any rdf by hand

14:47:27 <sandro> I happily misread that, mischat, as the most robust trolling.

Sandro Hawke: I happily misread that, mischat, as the most robust trolling.

14:47:42 <AlexHall> the problem with rdf/xml is when newcomers confuse the xml syntax with the rdf semantics

Alex Hall: the problem with rdf/xml is when newcomers confuse the xml syntax with the rdf semantics

14:47:48 <danbri> (btw re Turtle, http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/N3Alternatives might be interesting)

Dan Brickley: (btw re Turtle, http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/N3Alternatives might be interesting)

14:49:44 <yvesr> AlexHall, and people using xpath on rdf/xml

Yves Raimond: AlexHall, and people using xpath on rdf/xml

14:49:52 <yvesr> caused us so much problems at the BBC

Yves Raimond: caused us so much problems at the BBC

14:50:06 <yvesr> you change serialiser, and you end up breaking applications

Yves Raimond: you change serialiser, and you end up breaking applications

14:50:09 <zwu2_> tricky to use xpath I guess

Zhe Wu: tricky to use xpath I guess

14:50:32 <yvesr> maybe an xpath-able version of rdf/xml would be in order? don't know though...

Yves Raimond: maybe an xpath-able version of rdf/xml would be in order? don't know though...

14:50:33 <gavinc> zwu, tricky is an understatement

Gavin Carothers: zwu, tricky is an understatement

14:50:40 <zwu2_> :)

Zhe Wu: :)

14:51:38 <AlexHall> yvesr, it's in the charter as a time-permitting feature

Alex Hall: yvesr, it's in the charter as a time-permitting feature

14:49:00 <cygri> Subtopic: Tools for editors

7.11. Tools for editors

14:49:56 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

14:50:23 <cygri> danbri: practicalities around CVS access? use mercurial?

Dan Brickley: practicalities around CVS access? use mercurial?

14:50:58 <cygri> sandro: four options: 1. edit xhtml in cvs; 2. use xmlspec

Sandro Hawke: four options: 1. edit xhtml in cvs; 2. use xmlspec

14:51:10 <danbri> w3c mercurial repo: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/

Dan Brickley: w3c mercurial repo: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/

14:51:48 <cygri> ... 3. respec (an html5 and js thing)

... 3. respec (an html5 and js thing)

14:50:48 <danbri> danbri: http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html

Dan Brickley: http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html [ Scribe Assist by Dan Brickley ]

14:52:28 <cygri> ivan: respec works well for me

Ivan Herman: respec works well for me

14:53:21 <cygri> ... only downside: we have to transform old docs into respec. initial price.

... only downside: we have to transform old docs into respec. initial price.

14:53:34 <pchampin> pchampin: the Media Annotation WG uses respec for the API document

Pierre-Antoine Champin: the Media Annotation WG uses respec for the API document [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ]

14:53:41 <pchampin> pchampin: http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-api-1.0/mediaont-api-1.0.html

Pierre-Antoine Champin: http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-api-1.0/mediaont-api-1.0.html [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ]

14:53:53 <cygri> sandro: 4th option: use the wiki. there's a script to put stuff from xhtml into the wiki, and another for the way back

Sandro Hawke: 4th option: use the wiki. there's a script to put stuff from xhtml into the wiki, and another for the way back

14:54:12 <danbri> I was thinking more about the testcases repository (as a consensus documentation tool / decision record) -> should that be w3c cvs datespace again, or mercurial?

Dan Brickley: I was thinking more about the testcases repository (as a consensus documentation tool / decision record) -> should that be w3c cvs datespace again, or mercurial?

14:55:21 <cygri> ivan: (more respec advocacy)

Ivan Herman: (more respec advocacy)

14:55:51 <cygri> sandro: if we don't use my code, i won't do the pubs

Sandro Hawke: if we don't use my code, i won't do the pubs

14:55:59 <cygri> FabGandon: upside of using the wiki: no cvs

Fabien Gandon: upside of using the wiki: no cvs

14:56:11 <cygri> ivan: downside is that ppl hate wiki markup

Ivan Herman: downside is that ppl hate wiki markup

14:56:34 <cygri> sandro: i should look at respec and look at how it handles [something]

Sandro Hawke: i should look at respec and look at how it handles [something]

14:56:38 <sandro> ACTION: sandro look at respec's handling of references

ACTION: sandro look at respec's handling of references

14:56:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-39 - Look at respec's handling of references [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-04-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-39 - Look at respec's handling of references [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-04-21].

14:57:05 <cygri> SteveH: don't use xmlspec

Steve Harris: don't use xmlspec

14:57:36 <cygri> ... especially if only small changes, just do them in xht�ml

... especially if only small changes, just do them in xht�ml

14:58:10 <mischat> mischat: votes for a distributed version control system instead of a centralised one

Mischa Tuffield: votes for a distributed version control system instead of a centralised one [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ]

14:59:17 <Souri> Souri: based upon my R2RML editing experience: +1 for option 1 (edit xhtml in cvs); +0.5 for option 4 (wiki)

Souripriya Das: based upon my R2RML editing experience: +1 for option 1 (edit xhtml in cvs); +0.5 for option 4 (wiki) [ Scribe Assist by Souripriya Das ]

14:57:35 <danbri> so should RDFS spec be in HTML/RDFa? if so, which vocabulary terms should it include RDF claims about? rdf+rdfs?

Dan Brickley: so should RDFS spec be in HTML/RDFa? if so, which vocabulary terms should it include RDF claims about? rdf+rdfs?

14:59:19 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/blog/systeam/2010/06/16/why_we_chose_mercurial_as_our_dvcs/

Dan Brickley: http://www.w3.org/blog/systeam/2010/06/16/why_we_chose_mercurial_as_our_dvcs/

14:59:20 <cygri> Topic: AOB

8. AOB

14:59:59 <sandro> sandro: (discussion of whether emacs can reify skolemized bnodes....)

Sandro Hawke: (discussion of whether emacs can reify skolemized bnodes....) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:00:03 <yvesr> yvesr: (in rdf/xml...)

Yves Raimond: (in rdf/xml...) [ Scribe Assist by Yves Raimond ]

15:02:01 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

15:02:02 <sandro> Bye remote folks!

Sandro Hawke: Bye remote folks!

15:02:06 <zwu2_> bye and have a safe trip home!

Zhe Wu: bye and have a safe trip home!

15:02:17 <manu> Have a safe trip back home to everyone there - :)

Manu Sporny: Have a safe trip back home to everyone there - :)

15:02:31 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

15:02:39 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

15:02:46 <cygri> guus: adjourned

Guus Schreiber: adjourned

15:02:57 <cygri> trackbot, generate minutes

trackbot, generate minutes

15:02:57 <trackbot> Sorry, cygri, I don't understand 'trackbot, generate minutes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, cygri, I don't understand 'trackbot, generate minutes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

15:03:11 <cygri> RRSAgent, generate minutes

RRSAgent, generate minutes

15:03:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-rdf-wg-minutes.html cygri

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-rdf-wg-minutes.html cygri

15:03:14 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

15:03:54 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF



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This revision (#7) generated 2011-04-17 14:01:03 UTC by 'fgandon', comments: None