IRC log of css on 2025-04-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:57:37 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/16-css-irc
15:57:41 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:57:42 [Zakim]
Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
15:58:44 [astearns]
astearns has changed the topic to: Apr 16 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2025Apr/0006.html
15:58:46 [Rossen7]
Rossen7 has changed the topic to: Agenda for 4/15 at: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2025Apr/0006.html
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present+
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present+
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present+
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16:04:06 [davidleininger]
Unable scribe today. Will in the future.
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present+
16:05:24 [fantasai]
scribenick: fantasai
16:06:00 [emilio]
present+
16:06:16 [github-bot]
Topic: [css-values] attr()'s url type seems wrong
16:06:44 [jfkthame]
present+
16:06:59 [dholbert]
present+
16:07:01 [vmpstr]
present+
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present+
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16:07:38 [miriam]
present+
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present+
16:08:28 [fantasai]
github: none
16:08:32 [github-bot]
Topic: [css-values-5] allow specifying flat vs light tree in `sibling-index()` and `sibling-count()`
16:09:12 [hoch]
present+
16:09:25 [rachelandrew]
there's a bunch of Chrome folks on vacation or otherwise OOO
16:09:39 [fantasai]
github: none
16:09:47 [fantasai]
emilio: I could talk about it, but would like rune around
16:10:05 [github-bot]
Topic: [css-env][css-values] UAs inconsistent in how OS font settings affect the default font-size `medium`
16:10:13 [dbaron]
Present+
16:10:33 [fantasai]
Rossen7: Bikeshedding issue, 4 proposed names in the issue
16:10:53 [fantasai]
dgrogan: This is about naming an environment variable to use inside env()
16:11:01 [fantasai]
dgrogan: Represents the font scale factor that the user has selected
16:11:09 [fantasai]
dgrogan: we've gone over a lot of potential names
16:11:27 [fantasai]
dgrogan: reason why "font" is there is because it's about changing font size
16:11:37 [fantasai]
dgrogan: "text" because maybe use with text-size-adjust
16:11:46 [fantasai]
dgrogan: "factor" was proposed for more explicitness
16:11:49 [Rossen7]
q?
16:12:00 [fantasai]
Rossen7: why not use 'system' in the name of the property?
16:12:16 [fantasai]
dgrogan: Considered that earlier. Not sure what happened.
16:12:18 [dbaron]
From the issue:
16:12:18 [dbaron]
1. preferred-font-scale
16:12:18 [dbaron]
2. preferred-text-scale
16:12:18 [dbaron]
3. preferred-font-scale-factor
16:12:18 [dbaron]
4. preferred-text-scale-factor
16:12:20 [emilio]
q+
16:12:33 [fantasai]
dgrogan: Ah, emilio had a reason -- would avoid system/os in the name because it could be a browser-specific setting
16:12:51 [fantasai]
dgrogan: For most platforms, can only override at UA or OS, but on windows can be both levels
16:12:58 [fantasai]
dgrogan: For windows we were planning to multiply them
16:13:06 [fantasai]
dgrogan: So not system, because could include the UA
16:13:17 [smfr]
present+
16:13:26 [fantasai]
emilio: To text scale, at least on windows/linux, gets used as a DPI multipler, which we wouldn't want to expose here
16:13:27 [jensimmons]
q+
16:13:28 [smfr]
q+
16:13:39 [Rossen7]
ack em
16:13:42 [Rossen7]
ack emilio
16:13:54 [fantasai]
jensimmons: What kind of value is returned? A <number>?
16:14:05 [fantasai]
dgrogan: it's a unitless value like 1.4, used as a multiplier
16:14:13 [fantasai]
jensimmons: what do you expect the range? 1 is keep it the same?
16:14:18 [fantasai]
dgrogan: right
16:14:27 [fantasai]
jensimmons: so 0.5 makes it half, 2 makes it double?
16:14:28 [ChrisL]
My top choice would be preferred-font-scale
16:14:29 [fantasai]
dgrogan: yes
16:14:31 [Rossen7]
ack jensimmons
16:14:34 [Rossen7]
ack smfr
16:14:50 [fantasai]
smfr: Is this linear scaling for all font sizes? Text that's already large would be doubled? Does that match what browsers and OS want?
16:15:01 [fantasai]
dgrogan: This is just the environment variable. Authors can use strategically as they want
16:15:13 [fantasai]
dgrogan: if asking about linearly scaling all font sizes, author could
16:15:25 [fantasai]
smfr: There's a danger that they will, which would make large text ridiculously large
16:15:32 [fantasai]
iank_: They could also apply their own scaling
16:15:40 [emilio]
q+
16:15:44 [fantasai]
smfr: I'm not sure how Apple system scaling works, but probably more smart than linear scaling
16:15:56 [fantasai]
iank_: This isn't smart, just exposes the factor
16:16:06 [emilio]
q-
16:16:08 [fantasai]
smfr: alternative would be some API to do the mapping, but that would be more complicated
16:16:38 [dholbert]
scribe+
16:16:44 [dholbert]
fantasai: there were several conversations in this thread
16:16:54 [fantasai]
dgrogan: we did resolve to add the unit, zem or pem or something
16:16:56 [dholbert]
fantasai: did we resolve to add any other [...] in this issue?
16:17:20 [dholbert]
fantasai: i wanted to add another name to the pile, for polling... "preferred font zoom"
16:17:37 [dholbert]
fantasai: that avoids some confusion around what "scale" might mean. zoom factor is more obviously a factor
16:18:01 [fantasai]
dgrogan: Discussed on thread. Careful to differentiate, only applies to text. We casually use "zoom" for full page zoom, which we do on Windows for now but trying to move away from
16:18:07 [emilio]
q+
16:18:14 [fantasai]
dgrogan: move to text-only scaling
16:18:27 [Rossen7]
ack fantasai
16:18:27 [Zakim]
fantasai, you wanted to add an option and to
16:18:47 [iank_]
I think `zoom` might get conflated too much with other zoom.
16:18:48 [dholbert]
fantasai: there's a feature in Firefox called "text zoom" which zooms the text, and we have several different kinds of zoom in CSS, so it shouldn't be too confusing to call this a flavor of zoom
16:18:50 [Rossen7]
ack emilio
16:19:05 [fantasai]
emilio: We have a 'zoom' property that does layout zoom, so would try to avoid overloading zoom even more ...
16:19:17 [dholbert]
q+
16:19:23 [fantasai]
emilio: Maybe we could narrow down by asking 2 questions
16:19:45 [fantasai]
emilio: between 4 choices in the comment, 2 questions are should we call it "scale" or "scale-factor" and should we use "font" or "text"
16:19:51 [fantasai]
emilio: I prefer to avoid adding -factor
16:20:05 [fantasai]
emilio: I would use text rather than font
16:20:15 [fantasai]
emilio: implies it would apply to font properties, but might want to use it elsewhere
16:20:27 [fantasai]
emilio: and I think "text" matches what OS usually calls it
16:20:43 [faceless]
present-
16:20:43 [Rossen7]
ack dholbert
16:21:19 [fantasai]
dholbert: ... browser has not acted upon. Is there any potential problem to having a 2x zoom factor already applied, and then pages reacting to it and applying more zoom?
16:21:37 [fantasai]
emilio: If you apply it, either full zoom or whatever, you're supposed to return 1 as the scale factor
16:22:01 [fantasai]
Rossen7: We're talking about the final result of some combination between the UA and the system font settings, that will be represented as part of this scale factor
16:22:16 [fantasai]
Rossen7: which is to say, if they end up cancelling each other, that's OK. But the final combined result
16:22:20 [fantasai]
Rossen7: that is exposed to the user
16:22:26 [fantasai]
dgrogan: yep, that's the plan
16:22:49 [fantasai]
dholbert: So this is representing a request from user for increased text size that the browser has not already applied
16:23:09 [fantasai]
Rossen7: if you have 2x in the system and .5 in the browser, your document will receive 1.
16:23:22 [fantasai]
Rossen7: assumes you as the user knew what you're doing when scaling things up/down
16:23:40 [fantasai]
iank_: Question was did we apply this to 'em' yet, and the answer is no.
16:23:59 [Rossen7]
q
16:24:04 [fantasai]
dholbert: If ask 2x, is the browser already drawing text at 2x, or is it drawing at 1x and tells author that there's a request so author can apply
16:24:16 [fantasai]
emilio: My understanding was that if you scale the web content in some way, then you shouldn't expose this factor, right?
16:24:30 [fantasai]
emilio: let's say you apply 2x in windows settings, we keep our current behavior, we do the full zoom
16:24:37 [fantasai]
emilio: arguably doesn't scale the text, but...
16:24:42 [fantasai]
emilio: then not supposed to expose this again
16:25:00 [fantasai]
dholbert: Definitely what we plan to do. Will ship on Android first, which only has one slider (OS level)
16:25:05 [fantasai]
s/dholbert/dgrogan/
16:25:18 [fantasai]
dgrogan: On other platforms we'll leave as 1 until we figure out what we want, as the UA, to do
16:25:20 [smfr]
q+
16:25:24 [fantasai]
dgrogan: It's going to be 1 everywhere until we sort it out
16:25:27 [dholbert]
FWIW Firefox on Android does have its own "Font Size" slider
16:25:36 [dholbert]
(in settings|accessibility)
16:25:45 [fantasai]
dgrogan: Right now, on windows, if you slide the OS level over, we don't do font scaling, we don't even do full page zoom. We do full browser zoom, which is ridiculuous
16:25:54 [fantasai]
dgrogan: as long as Chrome does that, we're going to leave this as 1
16:26:32 [dholbert]
fantasai: my understanding was that this represents the factor that you as an author would want to apply to the initial value of `16px` in order to get the user's preferred font-size
16:26:53 [dholbert]
fantasai: ...for body text specifically (there might be different scaling factors that are appropriate for other text, e.g. headings)
16:27:11 [dholbert]
fantasai: we need to be very clear that that's the intention, so on systems where there are multiple scale factors, it's not ambiguous
16:27:59 [dholbert]
fantasai: this will affect different zooms in different ways... e.g. if you pinch-zoom, it shouldn't influence this environment variable. If the browser's doing a full-page zoom as a way to respond to user's preferred text size by zooming everything, then this env var should return `1`. That might be a case where you'd want to ask the page to do it for you instead
16:28:07 [dholbert]
fantasai: but you'd need confirmation from the page that the page could handle it
16:28:24 [dholbert]
fantasai: so you'd need some sort of two-way negotiation similar to what we do for dark mode
16:28:44 [Rossen7]
ack fantasai
16:28:52 [dholbert]
fantasai: I don't like "scale factor" naming. "scale" sounds like it could have multiple mappings instead of a single multiplier. That's why I prefer 'zoom', seems more like a single thing that has just this purpose
16:29:05 [fantasai]
smfr: I'm confused. There are multiple things happening here.
16:29:23 [fantasai]
smfr: in iOS there's accessibility settings to change the size of text. And in the browser you can change the text size with +/- buttons
16:29:32 [fantasai]
jensimmons: Currently browser setting is per-site
16:29:57 [fantasai]
iank_: On iOS, when you do the + button on a site... that doens't trigger browser zoom, that just changes the text?
16:30:15 [fantasai]
smfr: On Mac, it effectively increases size of CSS px. Can't remember on iOS. I think it's a text zoom?
16:30:37 [fantasai]
smfr: On iOS the text gets bigger, but images etc don't, don't get side scrolling
16:30:46 [fantasai]
iank_: Images, depends how they're set up.
16:30:51 [davidleininger]
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16:30:56 [davidleininger]
opt+cmd++ is font size adjustment on safari
16:31:03 [fantasai]
smfr: My pref for this env() is that it simply reflects the scaling you get if you use the Apple system fonts
16:31:09 [fantasai]
smfr: interacting with browser zoom is confusing
16:31:19 [fantasai]
iank_: Our intention is to remain stable for browser zoom
16:31:32 [fantasai]
iank_: Chrome has an additional scale factor, which is applied on top of OS setting. Not describing browser zoom.
16:31:40 [fantasai]
smfr: on Mac Safari there's an option for text-only zoom
16:31:47 [davidleininger]
Also, on Mac in Safari, Dynamic Type is 13px.
16:32:08 [fantasai]
Rossen7: Listening to the conversation, doesn't seem like naming is the only thing to discuss here. Seem to be more refining of expected behavior that we need to get alignment on before we name it.
16:32:20 [fantasai]
iank_: Only on iOS, I think.
16:32:25 [fantasai]
Rossen7: I'm expecting this property should work everywhere
16:32:31 [fantasai]
iank_: Confusion is only on iOS
16:32:51 [fantasai]
dholbert: Firefox on Android also has a text zoom setting in addition to OS setting
16:32:54 [fantasai]
dholbert: works similar to Safari on iOS
16:32:59 [fantasai]
dgrogan: Which one?
16:33:09 [fantasai]
dgrogan: Firefox on Android, you guys have an option where you were defer the UA level to the OS level
16:33:17 [fantasai]
dgrogan: but then if you don't do that, your UA level overrides the OS level
16:33:20 [jfkthame]
in safari on iOS, I'm seeing both text and images getting zoomed when I use the text-size adjustment
16:33:22 [fantasai]
dgrogan: so you only have one on Android effectively
16:33:26 [smfr]
q+
16:33:33 [fantasai]
dholbert: We ignore the OS level, at least on example.org
16:33:40 [fantasai]
dholbert: but if you change the slider then it increases the text size
16:33:45 [fantasai]
emilio: It increases everything.
16:34:00 [fantasai]
dholbert: We call it "font size" "make text bigger", maybe that's misleading
16:34:11 [fantasai]
smfr: Risk is multiple scale factors from different places, and get massive text
16:34:18 [fantasai]
smfr: Users need a minimum text size
16:34:45 [fantasai]
iank_: we covered previously why we want to expose this as a scale factor, in that we expect users to use this with text-size-adjust and stuff like that
16:34:57 [fantasai]
iank_: exposing a minimum factor is broken
16:35:03 [fantasai]
iank_: that's why we want to expose as a factor
16:35:05 [jensimmons]
q+
16:35:14 [Rossen7]
ack smfr
16:35:14 [fantasai]
iank_: Would be fine if you want to propose a name like minimum scale factor ...
16:35:22 [fantasai]
smfr: text-size-adjust, you're talking about font boosting?
16:35:45 [fantasai]
iank_: Sites today will do text-size-adjust: 1.5; and turn off the auto font boosting and increase text size that way
16:35:51 [fantasai]
iank_: Sites want to do something like this
16:36:08 [Rossen7]
ack jensimmons
16:36:11 [fantasai]
jensimmons: Alluding to my question/thought, which is that, a lot of authors are confused in some ways about text sizing works, font zooming works right now
16:36:19 [weinig]
(not just authors)
16:36:22 [fantasai]
jensimmons: Tension comes up every time we try to make things better for accessibliity
16:36:30 [fantasai]
jensimmons: truth is many sites don't do anything, or do little, or do it wrong
16:36:41 [fantasai]
jensimmons: so browser try to create situation where sites are usable despite authors
16:36:48 [fantasai]
jensimmons: So on Apple platforms, a lot of mitigations already in place
16:36:59 [fantasai]
jensimmons: We force creating situation that users need
16:37:04 [fantasai]
jensimmons: Nice to be able to let author take over
16:37:17 [schenney]
q+
16:37:20 [fantasai]
jensimmons: on the other hand, authors are already so confused. I don't even know how to explain what's happening now, nevermind the future
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16:37:42 [fantasai]
iank_: The original problem here was text autosizing, which was added when mobile was first taking off
16:37:56 [weinig]
q+
16:37:58 [fantasai]
iank_: Ideally as the browser, we'd choose the font sizes. But we can't really do that in a correct way because it's very easy for text to get ??
16:38:07 [fantasai]
iank_: so making something that was small and difficult to read ocmpletely unreadable
16:38:12 [fantasai]
iank_: because of this, authors want a lot more control
16:38:24 [fantasai]
iank_: currently, they're using a lot of different mechanisms to probe for this underlying text scale factor
16:38:34 [fantasai]
iank_: e.g. on iOS they're using a magical Apple extension to probe this
16:38:41 [fantasai]
iank_: on Chrome they're using a different magic thing
16:38:46 [fantasai]
iank_: and then they're applying that text factor
16:38:57 [fantasai]
iank_: It would be nice if ???? but fundamentally can't do that. Will clip content.
16:39:10 [Rossen7]
q?
16:39:12 [fantasai]
iank_: Authors want a way to access this value, and this is our proposal for enablign that. Does it make sense?
16:39:17 [fantasai]
jensimmons: Yes, you're explaining it well. :)
16:39:28 [fantasai]
iank_: A lot of websites will turn off [missed]
16:39:40 [fantasai]
iank_: And that is also bad for users, because they're explicitly not respecting the OS level thing
16:39:56 [fantasai]
iank_: So lots of sites want to use, currently hacking around to get this info, and we want to expose this in a consistent way
16:39:56 [dholbert]
s/nice if ???/nice if browsers could just increase the size of text/
16:40:06 [emilio]
q+
16:40:10 [Rossen7]
ack schenney
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16:40:28 [fantasai]
schenney: Jen's point is that websites don't do the right thing. but websites are trying to do the right thing by adjusting the fonts in a sensible way. But don't have the necessary information.
16:40:43 [fantasai]
schenney: so this is letting the website know what the browsers going to do. So doesn't make the bad things worse
16:41:02 [fantasai]
jensimmons: It sounds in some ways that we're trying to standardize something that's not been standardize
16:41:12 [fantasai]
jensimmons: Now reaching into browser user settings, and exert more standardization
16:41:23 [fantasai]
jensimmons: hopefully we're looking at multiple browsers and OSes to figure something out here
16:41:36 [fantasai]
jensimmons: I imagine how Android handles this is different from iOS , or Mac or Windows
16:41:44 [Rossen7]
+1 to jensimmons
16:41:49 [fantasai]
jensimmons: The more we look at this problem the more complicated it gets. Want to make sure solution works for all OSes
16:42:14 [fantasai]
jensimmons: Don't want something to work great on one OS and not on others
16:42:27 [fantasai]
jensimmons: [cites earlier example of a thing]
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16:42:40 [fantasai]
iank_: OSes are quite consistent in exposing "how much do you want to boost your minimum font size?"
16:42:46 [fantasai]
iank_: Browsers have interpreted that in different ways
16:42:53 [fantasai]
iank_: It's going to take time to move browsers to a consistent state
16:43:01 [fantasai]
iank_: Android is most painful but also on Windows etc.
16:43:08 [fantasai]
iank_: but we wnat to start there. We want to fix this mess.
16:43:18 [fantasai]
iank_: OSes are consistent, it's how we represent that that's a mess
16:43:22 [Rossen7]
ack dbaron
16:43:22 [Zakim]
dbaron, you wanted to react to schenney
16:43:36 [fantasai]
dbaron: wrt idea that stuf been around for decades...
16:43:38 [fantasai]
dbaron: not quite
16:43:55 [fantasai]
dbaron: we tried to honor user prefs in default font size, but that broke stuff, because authors assumed 16px
16:44:07 [fantasai]
dbaron: what the proposal is trying to do is to enable pages to access that default
16:44:30 [fantasai]
Rossen7: I think we're farther in our understanding of the expected behavior...
16:44:42 [Rossen7]
ack weinig
16:44:50 [fantasai]
weinig: To back up what Jen said, I think that it is hard to wrap your head around the current state of affairs.
16:44:54 [fantasai]
weinig: Adding more things here is confusing
16:45:09 [fantasai]
weinig: Efforts to really converge the browsers together on behaviors that make sense would be great.
16:45:13 [fantasai]
iank_: Agree, but it will take time.
16:45:19 [Rossen7]
ack emilio
16:45:33 [fantasai]
emilio: Ideally we find a consistent thing to do across browsers everywhere
16:45:43 [fantasai]
emilio: but confusing for a lot of reasons
16:45:51 [fantasai]
emilio: Even if we do that, that doesn't encessarily make this useless
16:45:57 [fantasai]
emilio: Worst case you have a scale factor, that's always 1
16:46:19 [fantasai]
emilio: I don't see a reason not to do this necessarily. This gives a tool to authors
16:46:22 [fantasai]
emilio: to do the right thing
16:46:31 [Rossen7]
ack fantasai
16:46:55 [dholbert]
fantasai: it sounds like what might help this conversation would be an explainer that talks about all the different things that play into the size of text, and how they interact, and how this is going to help the stuation
16:47:14 [iank_]
we have a spec for `text-size-adjust`
16:47:15 [dholbert]
fantasai: there's been a lot mentioned here - text-size-adjust, browser zoom factors, layout zoom, pinch zoom, OS/browser settings...
16:47:28 [ChrisL]
fantasai++ an explainer would be great to tie the different inputs to this value together
16:47:39 [dholbert]
fantasai: drafting up an explanation of how these all fit together, and how this would get us to a more consistent useful world, would be helpful here
16:47:44 [iank_]
https://drafts.csswg.org/css-size-adjust-1/#adjustment-control
16:48:15 [dholbert]
fantasai: is that spec actually correct?
16:48:22 [dholbert]
iank_: it's correct in that 'auto' is magic
16:48:33 [dholbert]
iank_: a lot of developers get frustrated with 'auto' and turn it off
16:48:53 [dholbert]
iank_: in webkit and blink, text-size-adjust:auto is really bad for most websites so webdevs get frustrated and turn it off
16:49:07 [ChrisL]
I note that Mobile Text Size Adjustment has not yet had FPWD
16:49:07 [dholbert]
iank_: it's specced, but devs turn it off, which is partly why we want this new value
16:49:21 [Rossen7]
so, is text-size-adjust: env(preferred-text-scale) the answer to people turnning this off?
16:49:39 [dholbert]
iank_: devs want to replace it with something, which is why we want this knob. they use magical webkit/blink specific stuff, and might not have a similar magical thing on Firefox
16:49:52 [fantasai]
dgrogan: We had a long conversation at the Apple F2F in january, and there the group resolved that we would expose this environment variable
16:50:06 [fantasai]
dgrogan: Are we revisited that decision? Do we need to explain why we need this?
16:50:23 [fantasai]
Rossen7: I'm hearing strong agreement on the why. I think there's a lot of details that people are struggling with, so I would start there.
16:50:26 [fantasai]
dgrogan: so that would help the name?
16:50:46 [fantasai]
Rossen7: name is the artifact that comes at the end. Will be uncontroversial once we understand what the outcome is supposed to be.
16:51:00 [fantasai]
Rossen7: what I'm hearing is, people are poking at various intersections on the table of combinations
16:51:14 [fantasai]
Rossen7: and then how do these properties overlay on top of that table?
16:51:28 [fantasai]
Rossen7: I think once we clarify all these interactions, we'll be able to resolve on the name
16:51:36 [fantasai]
Rossen7: not about the name, but about the how
16:51:57 [fantasai]
Rossen7: we started with a question about the name, but the conversation in the last half-hour was all about "what is the expected behavior?"
16:52:04 [fantasai]
Rossen7: so the group is not clear on how this is going to work
16:52:12 [fantasai]
Rossen7: to add to it, you even said that parts that you are not going to support to start with
16:52:14 [jensimmons]
q+
16:52:21 [jensimmons]
q-
16:52:22 [fantasai]
Rossen7: so this is the problem, I understand you want to get a name so you can release something on Android
16:52:39 [emilio]
qq+
16:52:49 [fantasai]
Rossen7: but the feedback I'm paraphrasing here, maybe not greatly, is that there's still lack of clarity on what this behavior is suppose dto be when it's generalized across all these combinations
16:53:07 [fantasai]
iank_: We can write out what we expect the behavior to be for Chrome on different OSes. don't want to write down what other browsers want to do.
16:53:18 [fantasai]
emilio: Part of nice thing of doing this is we don't need to come up with those answers
16:53:18 [Rossen7]
ack emilio
16:53:18 [Zakim]
emilio, you wanted to react to fantasai
16:53:26 [fantasai]
emilio: If browser does magic scale by default, then expose variable as 1
16:53:34 [fantasai]
emilio: that's whole point of this
16:53:44 [fantasai]
emilio: This is an enhancement on what browser do, which is just turn it off
16:54:03 [fantasai]
Rossen7: that's not winning. This is exposing another auto, just call it 1, and people still can't rely on it
16:54:13 [fantasai]
emilio: If browser is doing its own scaling, then should expose it as 1
16:54:30 [fantasai]
Rossen7: Now we're saying sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. This is the lack of clarity the conversation is exposing
16:55:10 [dholbert]
fantasai: this all needs to be made clear, how all this fits together and how the new stuff fits in with the existing stuff
16:55:21 [Rossen7]
ack fantasai
16:55:33 [dholbert]
fantasai: having an explainer would be useful; needs to explain how authors are expected to understand and use it
16:55:53 [dholbert]
fantasai: the viewport spec and text-size-adjust spec, we need to be sure they're explained coherently in terms of how they hook into this comprehensible world
16:56:08 [dholbert]
fantasai: I'm assuming this new env var would live in text-size-adjust spec
16:56:15 [dholbert]
dgrogan: nope, env spec
16:56:20 [dholbert]
fantasai: units aren't gonna live in env spec
16:56:49 [dholbert]
fantasai: if we want a central concept of what this thing is, from which env variable and units are computed, that needs to exist somewhere. text-size-adjust is a place that makes sense to me (and then other specs can refer to it)
16:57:01 [dholbert]
fantasai: there needs to be a coherent story for how this stuff all fits together
16:57:26 [fantasai]
Rossen7: So we started with wanting a name. i think we can still resolve on a working name. Clear signal that more work is needed to bring the consensus and the final unified behavior that authors can depend on
16:57:37 [fantasai]
Rossen7: We can deal with a quick straw poll and at least have a working name.
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16:58:05 [fantasai]
Rossen7: First, should it be text or font? And then scale or factor, and then leave it at that, and leave for further work
16:58:29 [fantasai]
POLL: a) preferred-text- b) preferred-font-
16:58:33 [schenney]
a
16:58:35 [jfkthame]
a
16:58:37 [kizu]
a
16:58:38 [dgrogan]
a
16:58:38 [dholbert]
a
16:58:38 [hoch]
a
16:58:39 [jensimmons]
B
16:58:39 [astearns]
a
16:58:39 [dbaron]
b
16:58:39 [iank_]
a
16:58:41 [kbabbitt]
a
16:58:41 [kurt]
a
16:58:44 [flackr]
a
16:58:45 [davidleininger]
B
16:58:46 [Rossen7]
a
16:58:50 [rachelandrew]
a
16:59:02 [smfr]
a(bstain)
16:59:04 [miriam]
a?
16:59:08 [fantasai]
b?
16:59:24 [emilio]
a
16:59:28 [bkardell]
abstain as well
16:59:30 [ChrisL]
b
17:00:18 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Working title is preferred-text-something
17:00:50 [fantasai]
POLL: a) preferred-text-scale b) preferred-text-factor c) preferred-text-scale-factor d) preferred-text-zoom
17:00:54 [ChrisL]
a
17:00:59 [schenney]
a
17:01:00 [astearns]
a
17:01:02 [jensimmons]
A
17:01:02 [iank_]
a
17:01:02 [dbaron]
a
17:01:03 [dgrogan]
a
17:01:04 [kurt]
a
17:01:04 [flackr]
a
17:01:04 [kbabbitt]
a
17:01:07 [smfr]
c
17:01:10 [Rossen7]
a
17:01:12 [kizu]
a
17:01:17 [hoch]
a
17:01:24 [fantasai]
d
17:01:28 [jfkthame]
a
17:01:32 [dholbert]
a
17:01:49 [emilio]
a
17:02:11 [dgrogan]
SGTM
17:02:24 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Working title is preferred-text-scale, continue work on defining how it interacts with all the zooms and things
17:02:49 [Rossen7]
topic: end
17:03:03 [Rossen7]
Zakim, end meeting
17:03:03 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been bkardell, Rossen, davidleininger, kbabbitt, ChrisL, rachelandrew, kizu, faceless, jensimmons, flackr, dgrogan, ydaniv, emilio, jfkthame,
17:03:06 [Zakim]
... dholbert, vmpstr, florian, miriam, kurt, hoch, dbaron, smfr
17:03:06 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:03:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/16-css-minutes.html Zakim
17:03:14 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Rossen7; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
17:03:14 [Zakim]
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