IRC log of wot-td on 2025-04-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:01:06 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-irc
13:01:14 [kaz]
meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 2
13:01:36 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_Koster
13:03:13 [dape]
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13:04:28 [kaz]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#April_9-10%2C_2025
13:04:35 [kaz]
present+ Daniel_Peintner
13:04:51 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
13:05:00 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:05:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:05:08 [kaz]
q+
13:05:17 [kaz]
q-
13:05:35 [kaz]
present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
13:05:41 [kaz]
chair: Ege, Koster
13:05:45 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:05:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:06:00 [Mizushima]
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13:08:44 [mjk]
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13:10:46 [kaz]
present+ Jan_Romann
13:10:49 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:10:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:11:02 [kaz]
topic: Logistics
13:11:15 [kaz]
ek: wondering if this slot on Thursday is OK for people
13:11:26 [kaz]
q+
13:11:40 [janro]
janro has joined #wot-td
13:11:48 [janro]
scribenick: JKRhb
13:11:54 [janro]
scribenick: janro
13:11:58 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:11:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:12:16 [kaz]
i|wondering|scribenick: kaz|
13:12:35 [kaz]
(some discussion about people's availability)
13:12:37 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:12:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:13:33 [janro]
ek: Will send an email to ask other people's availability as well
13:13:55 [janro]
topic: Initial Connection Restructuring
13:14:06 [janro]
ek: Simple PR, although the diff is quite big
13:14:15 [janro]
... just turned the bullet list into a table
13:14:22 [janro]
... will show you what it looks like
13:14:32 [janro]
... (shows the rendered Markdown document)
13:15:04 [kaz]
i|Simple|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2090 TD PR 2090 - Initial Connection Restructuring|
13:15:05 [janro]
... we now have a similar table structure as it is present in the TD spec
13:15:28 [kaz]
s/topic: Initial/subtopic: Initial/
13:15:40 [kaz]
i|topic: Initial C|topic: TD|
13:15:42 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:15:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:15:50 [janro]
... then we have what each container contains, the rest I didn't change
13:15:56 [janro]
... didn't want to make a big PR
13:16:16 [janro]
... also wanted to ask whether we want to move the state machines and the requirements somewhere else
13:16:21 [kaz]
q+
13:16:34 [janro]
... currently it is a bit difficult to read
13:16:54 [janro]
... the requirements can be visible in the diagrams
13:17:21 [janro]
kaz: As an initial starting point, we can make this description a separate group note and the think about how to restructure later
13:17:27 [janro]
ek: Why a group note?
13:17:28 [cris]
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13:17:52 [janro]
kaz: If we are unsure how to integrate the content into the main TD spec, we could have a separate document
13:18:01 [janro]
ek: The main blocker is the toolchain
13:18:17 [janro]
... could have it as a separate document, but I am open to opinions
13:18:26 [janro]
kaz: Waiting for the toolchain is also fine
13:18:49 [janro]
... just started to wonder about the possibility of a group note
13:19:02 [janro]
... would make it possible to also get comments from the public
13:19:13 [janro]
ek: A readme is not enough?
13:19:43 [janro]
kaz: Might be even better to have it as a group note for that purpose for better visibility, but we can also wait
13:20:04 [janro]
ek: Then maybe as a question to the group: Do you prefer a classic group note or is markdown okay for you?
13:20:11 [kaz]
q-
13:20:15 [cris]
+1 ok for markdown (sorry I lost most of the discussion )
13:20:22 [kaz]
present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
13:20:47 [janro]
ek: Maybe just from my side: As soon as we put things into a group note, people think it is a standard
13:20:50 [dape]
q+
13:20:54 [kaz]
qq+
13:21:04 [janro]
... so I would prefer to make it obvious that it is not a standard
13:21:17 [kaz]
q-
13:21:38 [janro]
kaz: The process document is clear about that, but people do not understand that, that is your point, right?
13:21:46 [janro]
ek: Yeah, similar applies to CG notes
13:21:57 [janro]
dp: Agree, it is also less overhead
13:22:14 [janro]
... the only issue with Markdown I see is that linking is not working as well
13:22:16 [dape]
ack dape
13:22:22 [janro]
... but other than that Markdown is fine
13:22:24 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:22:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:22:44 [janro]
ek: Okay, if there are no other opinions then I would keep it in Markdown format
13:23:05 [janro]
... any opinions about moving the diagrams within the document?
13:23:19 [janro]
... there were also some comments by Luca
13:24:08 [janro]
... (adds a comment to the PR summarizing that the reordering is fine for the group as well as sticking to the Markdown format for now)
13:24:24 [janro]
... will apply remaining changes and merge asynchronously
13:24:37 [janro]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:24:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html janro
13:25:07 [janro]
subtopic: Container Parsing
13:25:23 [janro]
ek: The next step would be to do the container algorithm
13:25:54 [janro]
... which could be based on the merge-patch algorithm or the JSON-LD algorithms
13:26:13 [cris]
q+
13:26:25 [janro]
... as the only spec with algorithms is the Scripting API at the moment, I wanted to ask how we want to proceed here, should we use WebIDL?
13:26:55 [janro]
ca: In the Scripting API task force, we are usually starting with an issue, then write up the algorithm as text
13:27:06 [janro]
... could start with a PR
13:27:45 [janro]
... however, the Scripting API algorithms are usually relatively simple, this might be more complex, so maybe we could try to split up the problem into smaller chunks
13:27:58 [janro]
... also need to think about data types
13:28:04 [dape]
q+
13:28:09 [janro]
ek: There is already a PR
13:28:22 [janro]
... (shows a rendered Markdown table)
13:28:27 [janro]
... this is what you mean?
13:28:44 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:28:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:28:52 [janro]
ca: Yeah, we are going to stick to Markdown, right?
13:29:20 [janro]
... looks good already, we can then start working on the other aspects
13:29:58 [kaz]
i|The next step would|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2093 TD Issue 2093 - Initial Connection Container Parsing|
13:30:06 [dape]
ack dape
13:30:11 [janro]
RRSAgent: dp: An example for what we do is the JSON-LD expansion, which looks very complex, we usually stop earlier and do not go as deep with the nesting
13:30:11 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'dp: An example for what we do is the JSON-LD expansion, which looks very complex, we usually stop earlier and do not go as deep with the nesting', janro. Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:30:53 [janro]
dp: An example for what we do is the JSON-LD expansion, which looks very complex, we usually stop earlier and do not go as deep with the nesting
13:31:22 [janro]
ek: (gives an example for an algorithm)
13:31:30 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/proposals/initial-connection/README.md initial-connection/README.md
13:31:32 [janro]
... difficult to explain, but I think you got it
13:31:32 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:31:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:31:53 [janro]
ca: I think we might be able to build upon already existing assign algorithms
13:32:14 [janro]
... if we look carefully enough, I hope there should already be pre-existing one
13:32:24 [janro]
dp: We should also try to get implementation experience
13:32:31 [kaz]
i|difficult|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/proposals/initial-connection/README.md#td-examples Specifically, the TD Examples from the README.md|
13:32:33 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:32:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:32:44 [janro]
ek: Good point, already tried starting a simple script
13:34:02 [janro]
... maybe we can leave the implementation to the invidual people, like Eclipse Thingweb, as versioning might be an issue here
13:34:22 [janro]
... also annoying to deal with the software distribution aspects
13:34:50 [janro]
ca: Only exception in that regard are the TypeScript definitions by the Scripting API
13:34:52 [kaz]
q?
13:35:18 [cris]
ack cris
13:35:32 [janro]
ek: Could be an issue if the spec gets published but the software lives on independently and gets up updated
13:35:40 [janro]
s/up //
13:35:47 [janro]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:35:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html janro
13:36:10 [janro]
ek: Will do some cleanup of the document and then next week we can have a first look at the algorithm
13:36:20 [janro]
... will have a call on next Thursday
13:36:21 [kaz]
q+
13:36:48 [kaz]
q-
13:36:52 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:36:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:36:59 [janro]
kaz: I just remember that we got a response from the Privacy Group regarding the ID issue, so maybe you could mention that briefly
13:37:28 [kaz]
s/I just remember/I've just remembered/
13:38:01 [kaz]
i|I just|subtopic: Reconsider "id" being optional
13:38:12 [janro]
ek: (shows the response from the Privacy Group)
13:38:42 [kaz]
ii|shows|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2054 TD Issue 2054 - Reconsider id being optional|
13:39:04 [janro]
... by the way, kaz, is there a way to link to this?
13:39:25 [janro]
kaz: You can forward it to the wot-cg-??? mailinglist
13:40:04 [janro]
... (summarizes the response and his own latest message)
13:40:20 [janro]
... there are some questions on the generation and the format of the ID
13:40:34 [kaz]
s/forward it to the wot-cg-???/at least forward it to member-wot-wg@w3.org/
13:40:36 [janro]
... so if it is going to be a MAC address, then the generation will be well-defined
13:40:38 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:40:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:41:03 [kaz]
s/ii|show/i|show/
13:41:04 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:41:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:41:11 [janro]
... there needs to be a definition of a "session", that is whether it is going to be connected to multiple networks or not
13:41:43 [janro]
... also need assertive language, as there is no compliance check of implementations
13:41:46 [kaz]
i|that we got|subtopic: Reconsider "id" being optional
13:41:48 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:41:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:42:09 [janro]
... need general guidelines and avoid "engraved" identifiers
13:42:28 [janro]
... that was the discussion we had this week, only wrote back on Tuesday
13:42:36 [cris]
q+
13:42:44 [janro]
... also wrote her that she is invited to join one of our calls
13:43:02 [kaz]
q+
13:43:20 [janro]
ca: I think you covered most of our questions, and you are right that there are still a number of moving parts, in order to make sure that we do not create security or privacy loopholes
13:43:47 [janro]
kaz: Just wanted to repeat that we need to start with a high-level discussion with them again
13:44:16 [janro]
... for example, just using id for identifying a specific session and ask for advice
13:44:29 [kaz]
q-
13:44:33 [kaz]
ack c
13:44:34 [janro]
... currently, we do not have any particular algorithm etc., so let's just start with a chat with them
13:44:36 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:44:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:44:44 [janro]
ek: Any other comments?
13:45:20 [janro]
jr: Looks promising, thank you for pushing this forward
13:45:35 [janro]
topic: Next Work Item Proposals
13:46:20 [janro]
ek: Initial connection seems to make a lot of progress, should now discuss which topic is going to be the next one we want to focus on
13:46:35 [janro]
... we had this document with a lot of topics we want to focus on
13:46:43 [janro]
... I wanted to propose the data mapping topic
13:46:48 [kaz]
s/topic: Ne/subtopic: Ne/
13:46:57 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:46:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:47:13 [janro]
... the other alternative would be focussing on use cases submitted by parties such as Use Case TF, TD TF or liaisons
13:47:24 [janro]
... could also be from other sources
13:47:31 [kaz]
i|the other|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/planning/work-items/usability-and-design.md#data-schema-mapping Data mapping|
13:47:37 [janro]
... in the end, we need to people who want to work on a particular topic
13:47:45 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:47:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
13:47:53 [janro]
... if there is no one to work on something, it is not going to happen
13:48:03 [janro]
... want to get input from as many people as possible
13:48:11 [cris]
q+
13:48:14 [kaz]
q+
13:48:43 [janro]
ca: The first thing that comes to my mind is of course the whole discussion regarding manageable actions
13:48:55 [janro]
... seems to me even more important than Data Mapping
13:50:17 [janro]
... everything is connected, though, also relevant to pagination in the case of TDDs, but also action calls that run asynchronously etc.
13:50:44 [janro]
kaz: I think both of these aspects can be handled as part of the use case discussion
13:50:58 [janro]
... so maybe we can perform a prioritization based on that
13:51:25 [janro]
... Michael McCool was also thinking about a process of use case description generation
13:52:05 [janro]
ek: There is always going to be a use case/user story description, in order not to pull something out of thin air
13:52:24 [janro]
... at the moment, enough people have already articulated the need
13:52:45 [janro]
... so we just need to formulate the descriptions based on these considerations
13:53:20 [janro]
kaz: Maybe we can generate a lightweight description from the work items
13:53:25 [EgeKorka_]
q?
13:53:27 [EgeKorka_]
ack c
13:53:28 [EgeKorka_]
ack k
13:53:50 [kaz]
s/from the work items/from some of the work items which we've been working on for a while/
13:54:12 [janro]
ek: The others: What do you see as important aspects we should work on?
13:55:17 [janro]
mjk: I basically agree, these are the most important ones, as they also point to pretty large gaps at the moment
13:55:52 [janro]
dp: I think most of us agree that these are the most important topics to work one
13:55:57 [janro]
mz: Also agree
13:57:12 [cris]
+1 for getting input
13:57:21 [janro]
ek: There has been previous work when it comes to managable affordances in the web agents group, so from there we can also get input
13:57:49 [janro]
... also presentations that were held in the WoT context
13:58:36 [janro]
... there have also be considerations to model managable actions via events
13:59:13 [janro]
ek: I am not sure whether we can work on both work items at the same time, so we might need to pick one or prioritize one over the other
13:59:13 [cris]
q+
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13:59:17 [janro]
... what do people think?
13:59:44 [janro]
ca: If you ask me, if we deal with managable actions we might deal with data mapping anyway
14:00:00 [janro]
... so we might want to start with data mapping, but the dependency might be bidirectional
14:00:01 [dape]
q+
14:00:06 [cris]
ack c
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14:00:21 [janro]
ek: So maybe we want to work on both at the same time to a certain degree to find that out
14:00:35 [janro]
dp: Ideally, we might want to have people work on both topics at the same time
14:00:46 [janro]
... for that reason
14:00:58 [janro]
ek: Yeah, that would be the best case
14:01:06 [dape]
ack dape
14:01:11 [janro]
mjk: We should do use case review on both, probably
14:01:21 [janro]
ek: Alright, then we should start working that next week
14:01:40 [janro]
... and start separate markdown files like in the case with the initial connection
14:01:50 [janro]
[adjourned]
14:02:22 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:02:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
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