IRC log of ag on 2025-02-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:31:39 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/02/11-ag-irc
15:31:43 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:31:44 [Zakim]
Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
15:31:48 [Chuck]
chair: Chuck
15:31:56 [Chuck]
meeting: AGWG-2025-02-11
15:32:06 [Chuck]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:32:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/11-ag-minutes.html Chuck
15:32:33 [Chuck]
agenda+ WCAG 2 scoping discussion discussion update
15:32:42 [Chuck]
agenda+ Define a default Accessibility Support Set
15:33:04 [Chuck]
agenda+ Sub-group stand-up
15:33:20 [Chuck]
agenda+ Subgroup working sessions
15:47:30 [Chuck]
regrets: Mary Jo Mueller, Laura Carlson, Steve Faulkner, Roberto Scano, Bruce Bailey, Jennifer Strickland
15:56:42 [ChrisLoiselle]
present+
15:57:02 [ChrisLoiselle]
Need to leave at 30 minute mark to attend customer call. Apologies!
15:57:19 [Chuck]
agenda+ Tiffany Burton
15:57:41 [alastairc]
zakim, close item 5
15:57:41 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Tiffany Burton, closed
15:57:42 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:57:42 [Zakim]
1. WCAG 2 scoping discussion discussion update [from Chuck]
15:57:42 [kevin]
agenda?
15:57:42 [Chuck]
regrets+ Tiffany Burton
15:57:57 [kevin]
present+
15:58:18 [alastairc]
Sorry Tiffany, didn't mean to "close" you, just accidentally added you to the agenda!
15:58:47 [kirkwood]
present+
15:58:53 [Chuck]
present+
15:59:02 [alastairc]
present+
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present+
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16:00:14 [giacomo-petri]
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16:00:20 [giacomo-petri]
present+
16:00:31 [Eric_hind]
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16:00:38 [Eric_hind]
present+
16:00:43 [Ryladog]
Present+
16:01:00 [filippo-zorzi]
present+
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Present+
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present+
16:01:55 [GN015]
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16:02:05 [mike_beganyi]
present+
16:02:07 [mike_beganyi]
scribe+
16:02:18 [joryc]
present+
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present+
16:02:47 [Jennie_Delisi]
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16:02:50 [kenneth]
present+
16:02:51 [Jennie_Delisi]
present+
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16:03:05 [Chuck]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Chair_/_W3C_staff_decisions
16:03:09 [Frankie]
present+
16:03:21 [toddl]
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16:03:24 [mike_beganyi]
Chuck: Chairs have created a Chairs/W3C Staff Decisions page.
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16:03:28 [julierawe]
present+
16:03:29 [jspellman]
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16:03:32 [toddl]
present+
16:03:44 [Wilco]
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present+
16:04:00 [AlinaV]
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16:04:06 [mike_beganyi]
Chuck: Administrative decisions are made by W3C and/or Chairs. To ensure there's transparency we have created the previously linked page.
16:04:08 [AlinaV]
present+
16:04:10 [Glenda]
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present+
16:04:43 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: CSUN is precisely one month away
16:04:43 [Chuck]
zakim, up item 1
16:04:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'up item 1', Chuck
16:04:44 [JoeLamyman]
present+
16:04:50 [Chuck]
zakam, take up item 1
16:05:07 [Chuck]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/discussions/4188#discussioncomment-12045291
16:05:11 [ChrisLoiselle]
@jspellman https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Chair_/_W3C_staff_decisions
16:05:19 [Chuck]
zakim, take up item 1
16:05:19 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- WCAG 2 scoping discussion discussion update -- taken up [from Chuck]
16:05:34 [Chuck]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/discussions/4188#discussioncomment-12045291
16:05:39 [scott]
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present+
16:05:47 [mike_beganyi]
Chuck: Conversation going on regarding WCAG 2 and publications
16:05:59 [shadi]
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present+
16:06:32 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: Discussion to say where we got to. Had discussions on 21st of January. What kind of changes to put under errata, etc.
16:06:40 [Glenda]
present+
16:06:41 [dan_bjorge]
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present+
16:06:49 [r_brown]
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16:07:01 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: Approach at the moment is about issues we're putting forward as errata (CFCs, etc.).
16:07:43 [hdv]
present+
16:07:48 [mike_beganyi]
...any changes that could change what would pass and fail, we would add them to a column in the project so they don't get merged or added but they are made clear as changes we may want to make
16:08:08 [mike_beganyi]
...Would come back to group and discuss whether and how we would updated the WCAG 2 branches
16:08:20 [Chuck]
q?
16:08:28 [r_brown]
present+
16:08:33 [Wilco]
q+
16:08:37 [Chuck]
ack Wilco
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16:09:13 [mike_beganyi]
Wilco: The actual decision is deferred until we know that we will have a meaningful discussion about them, correct?
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16:09:21 [ShawnT]
present+
16:09:25 [Makoto]
present+
16:09:38 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: That is correct... [cutoff by Zoom crash]
16:09:42 [Wilco]
+1
16:09:44 [mike_beganyi]
Chuck: I think the answer is yes
16:10:08 [Chuck]
zakim, take up next item
16:10:08 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Define a default Accessibility Support Set -- taken up [from Chuck]
16:10:28 [Chuck]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/277
16:11:58 [Chuck]
https://www.gov.uk/service-manual/technology/testing-with-assistive-technologies
16:12:41 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: Had a concept of this in our last WCAG 3 draft. Foundational level, we would provide techniques and ensure that there is reasonable and usable coverage. The more items and more technologies we include in this the more work we create for ourselves. We may not be able to include as many techniques or methods as we'd like to
16:13:19 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: If we include tech that don't have support for web technologies, could restrict what we include at the foundational level. How much effort can we realistically assign to this?
16:13:27 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: What should our default accessibility support set be?
16:14:45 [mike_beganyi]
...Another part of this question could be: what kind of criteria are we using? Maybe could use various assistive technologies that are at a certain level of popularity and include them to help build robust techniques
16:14:47 [GN015]
q+
16:15:14 [dan_bjorge]
q+
16:15:25 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: Some suggestions from others about what to include [available on GitHub page previously linked]
16:15:37 [Chuck]
ack GN
16:15:52 [Ryladog]
q+
16:16:05 [Chuck]
ack dan
16:16:06 [mike_beganyi]
GN015: If we define a specific set of tools, do we make ourselves dependent on what these technologies can do, including their limitations?
16:16:09 [alastairc]
q+ on limiting ourselves
16:16:27 [Rachael]
+1 to dan (chair hat off)
16:16:32 [Wilco]
+1000 to Dan's point
16:16:36 [jtoles]
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16:16:48 [alastairc]
q+ on making it explicit instead of implicit
16:16:48 [jtoles]
present+
16:17:01 [mike_beganyi]
dan_bjorge: I think this is about testing with what's available as that's an accurate representation of accessibility testing.
16:17:12 [scott]
+1 to dan's list as an example. doubtful this makes sense to put into a spec
16:17:34 [Chuck]
+1
16:17:36 [alastairc]
q+ on how to get a wider variety.
16:17:41 [mike_beganyi]
dan_bjorge: axeCore has its certain tendencies in its implementation and reasoning. I think WCAG should include which ATs are used internationally.
16:17:45 [Wilco]
q+
16:17:51 [Ryladog]
yes
16:17:54 [Ryladog]
one sec
16:17:56 [Chuck]
ack Ryla
16:18:25 [scott]
specific technology probably doesn't make sense to use, since it leaves out some / makes an assumption that these will always be the tech to use
16:18:40 [Jennie_Delisi]
q+ to talk about bias and preference vs statistically popular
16:18:45 [scott]
reword: "sense to use" with "sene to list"
16:19:12 [mike_beganyi]
Ryladog: Do we need to start thinking about standalone technology and the APIs for that stuff (i.e. kiosks)
16:19:12 [Chuck]
ack ala
16:19:12 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on limiting ourselves and to comment on making it explicit instead of implicit and to comment on how to get a wider variety.
16:20:12 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: We're making this explicit instead of implicitly with WCAG 2. Was taking from Dan's post the principle of tech used by more than one set of users, what's supported, etc. At this stage, what's the principle that we're taking?
16:20:46 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: Would be worthwhile to ask international members what they'd wish to add. Need to be practical things we can test with the whole group.
16:21:07 [Chuck]
ack Wilco
16:21:13 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: Mechanic is to allow other regions to set up their support sets
16:21:47 [Rachael]
+1 to Wilco (chair hat off)
16:22:07 [mike_beganyi]
Wilco: The list seems to include traditional technologies. Good to keep in mind that accessibility has changed via features in browsers, for example. Would be good to include such technologies on the list.
16:22:09 [alastairc]
Yep, please do add these ideas to the thread.
16:22:31 [Chuck]
+1, but how do we "define" assistive technology when it is built into an agent?
16:22:40 [Makoto]
q+ to share efforts in Japan
16:22:58 [Chuck]
ack Jennie
16:22:58 [Zakim]
Jennie_Delisi, you wanted to talk about bias and preference vs statistically popular
16:23:00 [mike_beganyi]
Wilco: We're not just doing this for HTML. Seems influenced by what's in HTML currently and not in other technologies and tools. Should consider what happens in other tools not just web.
16:23:29 [kirkwood]
+1
16:23:30 [dan_bjorge]
+1
16:23:46 [mike_beganyi]
Jennie_Delisi: Careful not to show vendor bias. Consider a couple of things: indicate how the decision was made about what got included, and also make the statistics available (regarding screen reader use, etc.)
16:23:49 [Chuck]
ack Makoto
16:23:49 [Zakim]
Makoto, you wanted to share efforts in Japan
16:23:50 [Makoto]
Example of Accessibility Support Test Results (Japanese only) https://waic.jp/docs/as/info/index.html
16:24:02 [scott]
+1 to wilco's points. definitely agree that additional plugins / browser features should be considered as part of this.
16:24:17 [Ryladog]
+1 to Wilco - browser apps that are AT like Stylish is sort of equivalent to User Style Sheets
16:24:26 [kirkwood]
add to Jennis: describe tool in a non vendor specific manner
16:24:51 [Chuck]
q?
16:24:52 [dan_bjorge]
+1 also to Wilco. As an example to Wilco's point, the Stylish extension has about 2 million installs, compared to NVDA's homepage claiming "200,000+" users
16:24:57 [mike_beganyi]
Makoto: Japanese screen reader that's very popular in Japan. Important to test with different combinations including region-specific ones
16:25:05 [Chuck]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/277
16:25:28 [Chuck]
q?
16:25:52 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: Asking for contribution to this conversation at the link previously shared.
16:26:09 [dan_bjorge]
q+
16:26:45 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: Nothing cast in stone at the moment. As a baseline, will use this to test foundational methods and technologies together.
16:26:46 [dan_bjorge]
q-
16:27:05 [Chuck]
zakim, take up next item
16:27:05 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Sub-group stand-up -- taken up [from Chuck]
16:28:05 [KImberly]
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16:28:15 [mike_beganyi]
Chuck: Help errors feedback and triggers: Slow in starting due to participation challenges but are moving forward in the earlier stages. Looked at requirements and thought many of these requirements seem like a good fit in other groups.
16:28:18 [KImberly]
present+
16:28:37 [mike_beganyi]
Chuck: Will take these on from our perspective before giving other subgroups these requirements.
16:29:00 [Ryladog]
q+
16:29:12 [Chuck]
ack Ryla
16:29:41 [ljoakley1]
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16:29:47 [ljoakley1]
present+
16:30:29 [ljoakley1]
q+
16:30:31 [mike_beganyi]
Ryladog: Real-world example: Do we have something that might be along the lines of equivalent effort? Idea is that we're not compromising access? Thinking about pages with many tab stops to reach then many to go back.
16:30:34 [Chuck]
ack lj
16:31:19 [GreggVan]
q+
16:31:21 [mike_beganyi]
ljoakley1: Came up with me and the APO in Oracle and my colleagues were saying that this is comes under usability. Something we should consider addressing, though. Unfortunately we don't have anything about usability in WCAG. Don't see anything coming up that may address this.
16:31:24 [Jen_G]
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16:31:29 [kirkwood]
“cogniitive load”
16:31:39 [Jen_G]
Present+
16:31:40 [alastairc]
I think Gregg is on q to say there is something in the inputs doc about this
16:32:03 [Jennie_Delisi]
+1 to John K flagging "cognitive load" as similar in terms of barrier for equivalent effort at times
16:32:05 [mike_beganyi]
Ryladog: Some level of equivalent access would be beneficial.
16:32:06 [Chuck]
q?
16:32:09 [Chuck]
ack Gregg
16:32:42 [ljoakley1]
q+
16:32:56 [ljoakley1]
q-
16:32:57 [mike_beganyi]
GreggVan: In WCAG we were excluded from doing anything on usability. In order to be in a11y guideline, it had to be experienced by users with disabilities predominantly. Had to define accessibility barrier.
16:33:09 [alastairc]
q+
16:33:30 [Chuck]
q+ to say that we can contribute another requirement
16:33:34 [mike_beganyi]
GreggVan: Tricky area is cognitive impacts on any user (not just users with disabilities). Will be worth looking at.
16:33:44 [jspellman]
q+ to ask Gregg if that original separation of accessibility and usability still holds?
16:33:49 [scott]
q+
16:34:13 [Chuck]
ack ala
16:34:17 [alastairc]
6.1.2 Comparable keyboard effort https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uE2WCxPmvNopdCbuZQm_-cGyEdxEouRmZ8UUIlyutoU/edit?tab=t.7tvvfbgqxbc#heading=h.xlqs7tqpmaam
16:34:36 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: 1) I'm fairly sure there is a note on this at the previously linked page
16:34:46 [GreggVan]
q+
16:35:08 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: Harder to define the accuracy of the testing methods and define them clearly. How many tab stops is too much, for example.
16:35:40 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: 2) For these standups, it's probably best to focus on progress the groups have made and issues that come up so that we can assist each other in scoping.
16:35:58 [mike_beganyi]
Chuck: List of requirements are not finite. We can always add to requirements.
16:35:59 [Chuck]
ack Ch
16:35:59 [Zakim]
Chuck, you wanted to say that we can contribute another requirement
16:36:08 [Chuck]
ack jsp
16:36:08 [Zakim]
jspellman, you wanted to ask Gregg if that original separation of accessibility and usability still holds?
16:36:36 [mike_beganyi]
jspellman: Would like to speak to Gregg's point regarding the split of usability and a11y. I'd like to consider whether we can revisit this split.
16:36:50 [kirkwood]
difference: legal
16:37:11 [Chuck]
ack scott
16:37:15 [ljoakley1]
q+
16:37:27 [Chuck]
zakim, close the queue
16:37:27 [Zakim]
ok, Chuck, the speaker queue is closed
16:37:57 [mike_beganyi]
scott: For anything like this, we should consider if there are new technologies, new features available that could create potential for us to make requirements for things there are solutions for at this point
16:38:08 [Chuck]
ack Gregg
16:38:14 [ljoakley1]
q-
16:38:38 [mike_beganyi]
GreggVan: Indeed the keyboard group found the comparable effort as part of the materials. Decided that this wasn't testable or feasible with accuracy
16:38:47 [Ryladog]
q+
16:40:05 [Chuck]
From Carrie Hall zoom chat: as someone with a "cognitive" disability as I'm autistic, I don't take offense to that word but I do know autistic people that don't like that being classified in that way. But this varies by region/country.
16:40:38 [mike_beganyi]
GreggVan: If it applies to everybody, it's not a disability concern. In the area of cognitive however, this does not apply. There are many users who experience cognitive disabilities at various stages and we need to consider.
16:40:43 [alastairc]
Scott - we don't have to restrict ourselves to the "accessibility support set", it is more a minimum to show our due diligence for the techniques we provide. If a requirement is solved by current technology (e.g. a common OS feature), we can always treat that as a particular case. So long as it doesn't conflict with other AT that we have in the set.
16:40:55 [Ryladog]
My suggestion: Provide comparable access or instructions on how to overcome the extra effort
16:41:17 [Makoto]
Image and Media Alternatives & Control subgroup wiki https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/wiki/Image-and-Media-Alternatives-&-Control
16:41:54 [cahall]
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16:42:04 [Makoto]
Captions (Guideline template) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nPA1ud5eaWb4bCaqGsKBTaDkD7i57iTqoJ4KsljASkE/edit
16:42:04 [Chuck]
Help, Errors, Feedback & Triggers working document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JIhlWE6qdzbVnzvQxhNeDGFJ5IrF4hEq-86980dZIv0/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.yuf23bo528gk
16:42:08 [cahall]
Sorry I forgot about IRC chat here
16:42:10 [mike_beganyi]
Makoto: Image and media alternatives and control: Our subgroup has 23 requirements in total. We decided to take up a few of these so we could improve our pace reviewing this work
16:42:27 [mike_beganyi]
Makoto: Working separately on guideline template. Each member is responsible for one section.
16:42:52 [mike_beganyi]
Makoto: Saw overlapping requirements with captions.
16:43:25 [Chuck]
q?
16:43:29 [mike_beganyi]
Frankie: Learning sprint for this team as we adjust to how things were written a year ago versus state of affairs today
16:44:03 [mike_beganyi]
DJ: Visual appearance: Working on text appearance subcategory right now. We have a broad structure in place and working out details and defintions.
16:44:07 [alastairc]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EGEgRebgj8XfvwU-Fx2kAtd-3Ifl-UkEgyOxT1Xc5UY/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.uahl2f9omhi9
16:44:52 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: Only crossover that surprised us was "target size". Shout out to input group, target size is possibly something we're working on but appreciate the overlap
16:44:56 [Frankie]
Image and Media Alternatives and Control Meeting Minutes (contains links to all working and tracking documents): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FXOmiZ7QjNhNuLlAyGgPkYTAhc6SmOhTRRFnuBEDtoc/edit?tab=t.0
16:45:34 [alastairc]
s/but appreciate the overlap/but let us know if you find overlap with what you're doing
16:46:19 [mike_beganyi]
julierawe: Plain language, consistency, and familiarity. Moved our meeting time to accommodate participation. Talking about scope and how we're going to break things up in this path. One requirement that jumped out. Could we think of a way to incorporate preventing harm and triggers or whether that belongs elsewhere
16:46:24 [alastairc]
regrets+ MaryAnnJ
16:46:55 [mike_beganyi]
julierawe: Going to try to draft and see how things take shape. May have one big requirement with 10 or so parts or smaller pieces.
16:47:12 [julierawe]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q3eVdTVfErkeXMukdiNVRC1MgIDMv_2FrgJ_62silfE/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.qs4ji1cas1hi
16:47:40 [julierawe]
q+
16:47:50 [Chuck]
zakim, open queue
16:47:50 [Zakim]
ok, Chuck, the speaker queue is open
16:47:57 [Chuck]
q+ julierawe
16:48:21 [mike_beganyi]
giacomo-petri: We picked up from our list the lists topic and we discussed what we should name the topic. We're not only talking about list structure, but we need to cover a wider range (such a carousels and cards). This is where some other groups may have overlap with us as we are not only focused on traditional list structure.
16:48:58 [mike_beganyi]
giacomo-petri: Can a list have only one item? Should a menu be part of a list? And others. We have lots of ideas and we started drafting user needs.
16:49:11 [mike_beganyi]
giacomo-petri: How lists should be displayed, semantically managed, etc.
16:49:16 [Chuck]
ack Julie
16:49:21 [ShawnT]
Lists (Developing to Exploratory) - Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1145cqagK7XZHj65voowFO2YUPjQ7jnBYtt9R0zte8RE/
16:49:35 [julierawe]
https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#appropriate-tone
16:49:55 [mike_beganyi]
julierawe: Comment about plain language. Link above is a requirement about appropriate tone or whether it should stay in our path or move to another
16:50:14 [mike_beganyi]
julierawe: Definitely not an easy fit in our section. Is this eligible to be moved?
16:50:22 [Chuck]
q+
16:50:48 [r_brown]
r_brown has joined #ag
16:51:37 [kirkwood]
+1
16:51:42 [julierawe]
+1
16:51:48 [mike_beganyi]
Chuck: Worth a short conversation. We experienced similar things in our subgroup. I'll propose what if we queue up the unclear requirements here and then the subgroups have a meeting and discuss whether it's an appropriate move and then the following week on the AGWG call we share the determination
16:51:52 [toddl]
+1
16:53:20 [mike_beganyi]
GreggVan: Inputs: We put Keyboard into Input group. One thing we saw was missing was voice input. Added that aspect. Got the doc set up nicely and all requirements should be there.
16:53:41 [mike_beganyi]
GreggVan: One leftover from Keyboard group which is Comparable Effort (of interest and discussed above)
16:53:53 [alastairc]
q+
16:54:00 [Chuck]
ack Ch
16:55:02 [mike_beganyi]
alastairc: When groups have a requirement that is difficult to solve for (implementation or feasibility), please ensure it's noted in the document. Therefore, we can say here's where we had trouble and couldn't reach a decision
16:55:36 [alastairc]
Interaction and AT Support wiki page: https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/wiki/Interaction-and-AT-Support
16:55:43 [alastairc]
our main document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mF6hqxvBBvA1Y9uropgT8J3yTdmu8NeFqjHkJ4Cl7JA/edit?tab=t.0
16:55:53 [mike_beganyi]
hdv: We have gotten started with our main document and our topics and separated them. Now we have separate documents we're working on. Doing this work asynchronously.
16:56:08 [cahall]
I have another call (conflict I need to get ready for) thanks for the notes here
16:56:18 [Chuck]
thank you Carrie!
16:57:37 [toddl]
Safety & Deception Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_f3cJ2Wvnv7Q56QDPvGUADE_JQ7HiyOYYREDiaQpPmM/edit?usp=sharing
16:57:48 [mike_beganyi]
toddl: Safety and Deception: Working on our first guideline. Information provided by user should be considered private so that the data is treated appropriately. Found several research items that discuss this.
16:58:09 [alastairc]
Hidde - are you able to access the W3C folder with these?
16:58:20 [alastairc]
If so, please move them there.
16:58:21 [mike_beganyi]
toddl: We would like to ask for a definition of "easily and without a high cognitive burden"
16:58:41 [mike_beganyi]
Chuck: We won't discuss at the moment but we will contemplate and return with an answer
16:58:45 [Chuck]
https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#appropriate-tone
16:59:02 [mike_beganyi]
Chuck: Could you also review "appropriate tone" and see if this is a good fit for your subgroup
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17:01:09 [kevin]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/11-ag-minutes.html kevin
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present+
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present+
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present+
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