W3C

– DRAFT –
MATF 11 December 2024

11 December 2024

Attendees

Present
Aash, Illai, Jamie, Jon_Gibbins, julianmka, Mick, quintinb, Tim
Regrets
Joe_Humbert, KarlaRubiano
Chair
JJ
Scribe
quintinb

Meeting minutes

Draft Group Note update

Please feel free to correct me if I capture you incorrectly1

JJ spoke about the current state and got feedback. Some people are confused about the difference between WCAG2ICT and WCAG2Mobile, and other aspects. JJ highlighted we need to focus on mobile, but it needs to expand to all mobile varioations. So scope will be increasing. We need to see to what we are going to be aligning, probably early next year

<JJ> https://www.w3.org/2024/12/10-ag-minutes

JJ thanks detlev for trying to keep focus on native mobile

Draft note update: We have a new section - interpretation of web terms in mobile context

Jamie - since we are following WCAG2ICT this is something to review. The section needs some review

JJ also is exlcluded from scope

JJ asks us to check that our names are in the list of contributors

Jamie do we have a timeline for public comment or is it too early?

JJ no timeline yet

ACTION: Update timeline for WCAG2Mobile

<julianmka> +1 to holiday break

<Jamie> +1

<Jon_Gibbins> +1 to needing a break

JJ anyone want a break? 2 weeks?

<quintinb> +1 to break

<JJ> Break after 18 December, until....?

<Mick> I'll be away on paternity week for 5/6 weeks come 23 Dec

<julianmka> resume January 8? or 15?

<JJ> 8 January or 15 January as next meeting?

<Jon_Gibbins> Just to note for discussion afterwards: I don’t seem to have access to the repo at the moment. I can fork and submit PRs but cannot checkout the Abstract-and-Intro branch.

<julianmka> Congrats, Mick!

I am away from 18 to 8th (including those days)

<Jamie> yay Mick!

<Jon_Gibbins> I’m taking a 2-week break for Christmas, also returning Jan 6th

<Mick> Thanks all :)

<Jon_Gibbins> Congrats Mick!

<Tim> +1 to break until 8th januari (as in, I am back from my break on the 6th)

<Jamie> 2 week for me but open to 15

<Illai> Congrats Mick!

ACTION: Break from December 18 until January 8

1.4.1 Use of Color

does this include making an icon more bold?

<JJ> The syntax is `q+ to XXXX`

thx

<Mick> +1 to JJ - I don't see that as failure

<julianmka> The issues with 1.4.1 that we had discussed before are also issues that apply to the web.

JJit has to do with hue and lightness

Jamie there is another section that mentions that setting or conveying a links visited status is not an author responsibility. Perhaps we need to talk about this regarding mobile. In concept it seems straightforward

JJ it seems more fitting for an understanding doc later

<JJ> Poll: Apply 1.4.1 Use of Color as written?

<julianmka> +1

<quintinb> +1

<Tim> +1

<Jamie> +1

<Mick> +1

<Illai> +1 With a note

Illai regarding the note: clarify the differences in technology

<Jamie> and link vs button language maybe?

ACTION: Apply 1.4.1 Use of Color directly as written, but with note to clarify differences with web

1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum)

Please define large text

What is the smallest acceptable text size?

EN301549 suggests that providing dark mode will be required

<Mick> My recommendation would be to add requirement around Dark mode and remove the 'Large Text' variation.

Units of measurement is also difficult on different platforms

<julianmka> +1 Jamie on importance of font weight

<Aash> +1 to Jamie

<Aash> Thin typefaces are a problem

<julianmka> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/contrast-minimum#intent:~:text=Due%20to%20anti,this%20Success%20Criterion.

Jamie Some of the understanding docs discuss the thinness of font... This has more of an affect on smaller screens. Phones are read at more angles than screens. We need to think about bringing attention to visualising font on a phone

<Jon_Gibbins> +1 to Jamie’s point

<Illai> +1 to Jamie

Aash I think choice of font is part of the EN310549 and user choice (11.7)

Jamie it might be helpful to recommend a min text size

<Jamie> term: anti-aliasing

<julianmka> Could we go with the minimum sizes used in HIG and Material?

<Jon_Gibbins> Points are just confusing though, because “web points” are not the same as iOS points I think??

<Zakim> Jon_Gibbins, you wanted to clarify commenting on glare-related / dynamic environment issues surrounding mobile

Jon_Gibbins not sure if the apple pts map directly to print sizes

<julianmka> https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/typography#iOS-iPadOS-Dynamic-Type-sizes

julianmka referenced the HIG

In the small print

Can someone get my magnifying glass?

ACTION: Research measuring text sizes on Android and iOS, mapping them do dp/pt and comparing with CSS points / pixels

<Mick> +1 to julianmka point

Jamie does the increased contrast apply to apps that use system fonts, but also those with custom and hybrid content

Oh sorry

<julianmka> My previous comment: We need to account for the known contrast failures in default iOS styles

julianmka I know Samsung allows for users to download their own fonts for the system, which responds to settings. My understanding is that if you are using a complete font the user settings are always correctly applied

<Jon_Gibbins> Just clarifying my thought: WCAG 2 refers to print points (1pt = 1/72 of 1in) rather than iOS points (arbitrary levelling unit for accommodating different pixel densities). There’s a high likelihood of readers getting confused about these so I feel we need to be clear on the thresholds on this SC (1.4.3).

JJ custom fonts are a little hard on iOS

@Jam'

Jamie how is hybrid content affected?

Apologies to hybrid fans, but I do think hybrid should be subject to the platform on which it appears. You don't get a pass for trying to shortcut development time

ACTION: Make a list of known default Android/iOS components that fail contrast requirements

Jamie can we review the actions?

ACTION: Consider adding thinness/thickness requirements as note

ACTION: Think about effect of system settings on contrast requirements

The font sizes?

Minimum font size

ACTION: Provide guidance for dark mode / light mode (do both need to pass contrast?)

I won't be here next week, please accept apologies

Summary of action items

  1. Update timeline for WCAG2Mobile
  2. Break from December 18 until January 8
  3. Apply 1.4.1 Use of Color directly as written, but with note to clarify differences with web
  4. Research measuring text sizes on Android and iOS, mapping them do dp/pt and comparing with CSS points / pixels
  5. Make a list of known default Android/iOS components that fail contrast requirements
  6. Consider adding thinness/thickness requirements as note
  7. Think about effect of system settings on contrast requirements
  8. Provide guidance for dark mode / light mode (do both need to pass contrast?)
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 240 (Tue Dec 10 03:59:59 2024 UTC).

Diagnostics

Active on IRC: Aash, Illai, Jamie, JJ, Jon_Gibbins, julianmka, Mick, quintinb, Tim