IRC log of tt on 2024-09-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-irc
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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
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rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
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present+ Nigel_Megitt
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Chair: Nigel, Gary
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agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/291
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Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/12-tt-minutes.html
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-minutes.html nigel
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scribe+ nigel
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Present+ Cyril
16:02:34 [nigel]
Present+ Atsushi
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Present+ James
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Present+ Gary
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Present+ Surya
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Present+ Pierre
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Toic: Introductions
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s/Toic: Introductions//
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Topic: Introductions
16:09:23 [nigel]
Nigel: Nigel Megitt, BBC, co-chair TTWG
16:09:41 [nigel]
atsushi: Atsushi Shimono, W3C Japan, team contact TTWG
16:09:59 [nigel]
jcraig: James Craig, Apple, accessibility groups like ARIA, crossing over to groups like this when there's an overlap of interest
16:10:10 [nigel]
cyril: Cyril Concolato, Netflix
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gkatsev: Gary, Invited Expert, NBC Universal/Peacock, co-chair TTWG and WebVTT editor
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pal: Pierre-Anthony Lemieux, supported by MovieLabs, editor IMSC
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surya: Surya Sunkavelli, working on ...
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RRSAgent, pointer
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See https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-irc#T16-13-07
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scribe+ cyril
16:13:42 [cyril]
Surya: Hey everyone, my name is Surya Sunkavelli. I work on the Media Foundations team within Encoding at Netflix so my work usually features studio facing use cases and media inspection related projects. With that being said, lately I’ve been working with Cyril for about a couple months now in tracking the DAPT spec as it develops and gets
16:13:43 [cyril]
updated and mapping it back to TTAL, which is a Netflix internal script file exchange format used to interchange between third party dubbing tools and Netflix internal tools like Scripting tool.
16:15:32 [eric_carlson]
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Topic: Agenda bash
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nigel: Iterates through topics
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-> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2024#Topics Meeting topics
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+present Jer Noble
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present+
16:20:39 [nigel]
group discussion of agenda topics and timings
16:27:56 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/291#issuecomment-2379654028 Results of agenda bash
16:28:38 [nigel]
Topic: Netflix demo of TTAL <--> DAPT
16:28:53 [nigel]
surya: TTAL is an internal Netflix specification for script file exchange
16:29:05 [nigel]
.. I wanted to demo the status of the converter between TTAL and DAPT
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.. and the key DAPT features that are being mapped properly
16:29:21 [nigel]
cyril: Netflix blog post explaining TTAL
16:29:32 [nigel]
jcraig: This is not a programming script, but a script for a piece of media?
16:29:38 [nigel]
cyril: Yes, think of it like a transcript
16:29:56 [cyril]
https://netflixtechblog.com/introducing-netflix-timed-text-authoring-lineage-6fb57b72ad41
16:30:16 [nigel]
.. this explains the history behind TTAL
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.. It is already used in production, we have partners all around the world
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.. that deliver scripts, dubbing scripts mostly but also audio description scripts
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.. using this format, but Netflix wants to migrate to DAPT when it is finalised.
16:30:52 [nigel]
surya: [shares screen]
16:31:11 [nigel]
.. List of example DAPT files generated by the converter.
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.. [shows example file]
16:32:00 [nigel]
.. xml:lang showing language of file
16:32:09 [nigel]
.. daptm:langSrc to show origin language
16:32:23 [nigel]
.. daptm:represents - I know this is going to change, but looks like this now
16:32:41 [nigel]
cyril: Mentioned previously - Netflix commissioned production of dubbing scripts for some
16:32:53 [nigel]
.. of its open content, where we share content that can be used to test features like HDR etc.
16:33:05 [nigel]
.. One of the titles we have is Meridian and we have asked for the generation of dubbing scripts
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.. in ~8 languages. We intend to release that as open source too so
16:33:27 [nigel]
.. people will be able to see the TTAL and DAPT scripts for this title.
16:33:37 [nigel]
surya: Yes, I can see around 8 languages.
16:33:44 [nigel]
.. Here's an example of one of the Meridian ones.
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.. This one is an audio description script.
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.. It's mapped to visualNonText and visualText
16:35:10 [nigel]
.. With frame rates, we capture that using ttp:frameRate and ttp:frameRateMultiplier.
16:35:17 [nigel]
q?
16:35:50 [nigel]
Nigel: are you using frame based time expressions?
16:36:04 [nigel]
surya: In TTAL we use frame based time expressions, so we do the same in DAPT
16:36:18 [nigel]
cyril: This is the easiest conversion. We may decide to have a different mode where
16:36:24 [nigel]
.. we go to seconds and forget the frame rate.
16:37:21 [nigel]
surya: Features prefixed with nttm: is for Netflix internal metadata from TTAL.
16:37:37 [nigel]
.. We're just storing them here but we're still talking about how best to organise internal specific metadata.
16:37:55 [nigel]
cyril: There are so many ways to capture metadata, attributes, elements, metadata elements,
16:38:00 [nigel]
.. either one or multiple.
16:38:10 [nigel]
.. Would like to have guidance in DAPT about how people should do metadata.
16:38:29 [nigel]
surya: Events and Characters
16:40:05 [nigel]
cyril: In this example here, there is a `ttm:desc` child of a `ttm:agent`
16:40:10 [nigel]
.. Not sure if that's allowed?
16:40:52 [nigel]
nigel: ttm:agent does not accept ttm:desc children
16:41:08 [nigel]
surya: That's something to keep in mind for agents, where to store the metadata
16:41:16 [nigel]
nigel: One option is to change it in TTML2
16:41:54 [nigel]
surya: Specific elements, div captures ids, begin and end times, style ids
16:42:16 [nigel]
.. so the mapping from the events to the style ids.
16:42:38 [nigel]
.. ttm:agent reference, which we map back to ttm:agent elements
16:42:58 [nigel]
.. One issue we haven't finalised yet, is that TTAL and DAPT think differently about how to
16:43:14 [nigel]
.. map script events or timing events. We haven't ironed out the mapping yet, some issues with TTML.
16:43:28 [nigel]
.. We would like segments to map to span elements with time offsets and styles for dubbing.
16:43:33 [nigel]
.. Have to finalise that still.
16:44:02 [nigel]
.. Earlier mentioned daptm:represents, so with the introduction of that we will change
16:44:07 [nigel]
.. how we use daptm:eventType
16:44:35 [nigel]
Nigel: Reminding myself, we got rid of event type didn't we
16:44:40 [nigel]
cyril: Yes, it's now represents
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present+ Eric_Carlson
16:45:33 [nigel]
cyril: To summarise, no problem mapping the core types of TTAL into DAPT
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.. The question is about mapping additional metadata that is not in the core DAPT vocabulary
16:45:56 [nigel]
.. How best to use the registries or user defined values for some of the attributes
16:46:00 [nigel]
.. That's what we have to work on now
16:46:32 [nigel]
Nigel: Will you share those more widely to see if there's interest in adding those to the registries?
16:46:38 [nigel]
Cyril: Yes, some of them
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Nigel: That's great, a working implementation of a DAPT generating tool
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+present eric_carlson
16:47:12 [nigel]
surya: Yes, and there's a tool to go back the other way that we'll complete
16:47:16 [nigel]
cyril: This tool will be open sourced
16:47:20 [nigel]
q?
16:47:50 [nigel]
nigel: Thank you for that demo
16:47:56 [nigel]
Topic: Streamable Text Tracks
16:48:29 [nigel]
Nigel: In Media WG yesterday I raised a follow-up to a conversation in Media and Entertainment
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.. Interest Group from Monday,
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.. which was about adding to the Media Source Extensions text tracks; it's currently only audio and video.
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.. There was a positive discussion, with consideration of some of the thorny technical issues
16:49:27 [nigel]
.. that would need to be resolved.
16:50:06 [nigel]
Cyril: Would like to go through the issues and understand which groups will deal with them.
16:50:27 [nigel]
jer: Two major areas are streaming of raw formats, WebVTT in hls.js, and feature level compat
16:50:43 [nigel]
.. between MSE and HLS, and how to append WebVTT files
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.. The MSE API allows you to append in a blob of binary data with a specific MIME type
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.. The concept would be you could init a source buffer with a MIME type of webvtt and append chunks
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.. of WebVTT files.
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.. The Media WG would need to come up with a description of WebVTT in our media file format
16:51:41 [nigel]
.. registry that describes initialisation and media segments for WebVTT and any other formats we would
16:51:45 [nigel]
.. want to support including TTML.
16:51:54 [nigel]
cyril: Are the registries specific to a media type or a MIME type?
16:52:08 [nigel]
.. The registry deals with ISOBMFF, not audio in ISOBMFF, video in ISOBMFF etc.
16:52:12 [nigel]
eric_carlson: I think that's right
16:52:28 [nigel]
jer: Yes we're jumping ahead to the second use case,
16:52:39 [nigel]
.. which is delivering captions inside a media container, not just as raw payload
16:52:52 [nigel]
.. Not just embedded VTT or TTML, but also 608 and 708 captions, which are more commonly found
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.. on the web at the moment.
16:53:27 [nigel]
.. Either exposing the raw samples to the client application, so an MSE app in a browser would get
16:53:45 [nigel]
.. a callback maybe or an event fired when new samples or DataCues (not standardised yet),
16:53:56 [nigel]
.. some packet that describes a thing that happens in the timeline,
16:54:11 [nigel]
.. or alternatively, my preference, when MSE encounters timed text, turn it directly into captions
16:54:22 [nigel]
.. and turn it into Text Track Cues that are displayable natively by the user agent.
16:54:27 [cyril]
q+
16:54:35 [nigel]
eric_carlson: I agree that's better, but there's always a situation where the UA encounters a format
16:54:50 [nigel]
.. it doesn't know how to parse, so we need an escape hatch where the page can override the behaviour,
16:55:12 [nigel]
.. or can handle a format that the UA just doesn't know how to parse.
16:55:14 [nigel]
ack cyril
16:55:29 [nigel]
cyril: I fully support that, with a Netflix hat
16:55:43 [nigel]
.. We care about how we display our subtitles and the consistency of our subtitles across UAs and devices.
16:55:51 [nigel]
.. I agree sometimes the page wants to let the UA do it,
16:55:58 [nigel]
.. and we have to work with regulation, privacy etc.
16:56:18 [nigel]
jer: We're bleeding into the interop issue for later about not being able to rely on the UA's behaviour
16:56:38 [nigel]
cyril: You want the page to be able to render the TTML
16:56:50 [nigel]
eric_carlson: If the page just wants to override the UA behaviour, a page could do what
16:57:00 [nigel]
.. many do now, taking the parsed output and do the rendering themselves.
16:57:11 [nigel]
.. We have to handle the case where the UA doesn't know how to parse.
16:57:40 [nigel]
Nigel: Is there already an equivalent for audio and video formats that the UA doesn't know how to decode?
16:57:42 [nigel]
eric_carlson: No
16:57:59 [nigel]
Cyril: The UA processing and performance requirements are a different order of magnitude
16:58:42 [nigel]
.. Maybe why there wouldn't be that approach
16:58:51 [nigel]
.. Maybe it could be WebCodecs in the future
16:59:06 [nigel]
eric_carlson: Thinking about it, the problem I was thinking of doesn't make sense, because
16:59:20 [nigel]
.. if the UA doesn't know how to parse the content then it just doesn't know, and its the web app
16:59:32 [nigel]
.. that's going to push the data into the parser... No, I take that back. If it's muxed content...
16:59:48 [nigel]
cyril: If it's TTML in MP4, the application will just push it, then the TTML gets extracted and
16:59:56 [nigel]
.. passed back to the application at the appropriate time
17:00:01 [nigel]
eric_carlson: Yes, that's what we need to figure out
17:00:11 [nigel]
.. There isn't an issue where a raw format would be pushed in and we need to deal with
17:00:16 [nigel]
.. exposing that to the page somehow.
17:00:36 [nigel]
jer: A lot of the issues have to do with the MSE specification itself.
17:00:48 [nigel]
.. One common way to do ad insertion is to reuse the same source buffer and append media from
17:01:01 [nigel]
.. a different source, maybe with a call to changeType() to signal the change of codecs.
17:01:18 [nigel]
.. But the MSE API has a requirement that there are always the same number and type of tracks,
17:01:33 [nigel]
.. with unchanging identifiers, even if the payload (codec) type changes.
17:01:50 [nigel]
.. So if you have a main presentation with two 608 tracks, if you wanted to switch midstream to an
17:02:08 [nigel]
.. ad then that would have to have exactly the same number of text tracks too, according to MSE.
17:02:23 [nigel]
.. I don't know if the reason for that is still relevant to text tracks
17:02:34 [nigel]
.. There may be a need to relax that requirement only for text tracks so that you can continue
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.. to play without breaking.
17:03:20 [nigel]
Nigel: I can see UI issues about changes to the user's preferred selection
17:03:33 [nigel]
Jer: Exactly, and how do you present that change to the text track
17:03:47 [nigel]
eric_carlson: We have that in HLS already, it can switch rendition to one that has a different set of tracks
17:03:57 [nigel]
.. Nobody has ever complained about it, it could technically be a problem
17:04:04 [gkatsev]
q+
17:04:19 [nigel]
jer: Good to know how many people choose a specific language preference
17:04:22 [nigel]
ack gkatsev
17:04:44 [nigel]
gkatsev: That's also for source buffers - for audio and video you're not supposed to have gaps,
17:04:56 [nigel]
.. and that's more likely for text tracks, where there may not be any for a long time.
17:05:16 [nigel]
.. How does this interact with the Safari experiment with the HTML block for rendering?
17:05:29 [nigel]
.. Would this supersede that, or is it independent?
17:05:38 [nigel]
eric_carlson: In my mind they're separate things.
17:05:50 [nigel]
.. I think this is just an extension of what we already do with inband caption tracks
17:06:03 [nigel]
.. where we turn them into WebVTT cues as long as it's a format that we understand.
17:06:11 [nigel]
.. We just use the existing text track mechanism.
17:06:25 [nigel]
eric_carlson: The other problem we need to solve is how to signal 608 and 708
17:06:35 [nigel]
.. Technically the init segment has to describe the stream.
17:06:42 [nigel]
cyril: That is probably an MPEG question
17:06:55 [nigel]
.. A solution is getting published in a couple of months.
17:07:32 [nigel]
.. There will be an amendment to ISOBMFF part 12 that enables signalling T35 messages in the init,
17:07:45 [nigel]
.. and you can put as many bytes as you need.
17:07:55 [nigel]
.. I got confused though because 608 is SEI messages not T35 messages.
17:08:11 [nigel]
jer: HTML has a side spec called Sourcing Inband Tracks
17:08:52 [nigel]
.. It looks like, to signal 608 or 708 you need to have a trac fragment in your moov header.
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https://dev.w3.org/html5/html-sourcing-inband-tracks/#mpeg4
17:09:04 [nigel]
cyril: Can we have a forum for this conversation to continue?
17:09:14 [nigel]
.. Is it better in TTWG or MediaWG or somewhere else?
17:09:27 [nigel]
eric_carlson: I think it would be better to start it here and then take it to the MediaWG.
17:09:36 [nigel]
.. Just my quick opinion.
17:09:56 [nigel]
Nigel: My 15s of thought says the opposite.
17:10:03 [nigel]
eric_carlson: I think it helps to make progress in a smaller group and then take that to a bigger group.
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17:10:39 [nigel]
Nigel: I would say the spec is squarely in MediaWG so I'd propose setting up a task force in MediaWG to
17:10:48 [nigel]
.. look at this, and then take the results back up to the wider group.
17:10:56 [nigel]
.. Then if there are interested people from here they can join that TF.
17:11:05 [nigel]
q?
17:11:29 [nigel]
Cyril: Need to get the terminology right, useful to do it in a task force
17:11:54 [nigel]
Nigel: someone needs an action to take this task force proposal to the chair of the MediaWG
17:11:58 [nigel]
jernoble: I will take that action
17:12:21 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC
17:13:35 [nigel]
Nigel: May need to let this topic flow over into a later session if we don't have time now
17:14:32 [nigel]
Pierre: Background: a couple of weeks ago an issue was reported by a user of IMSC, a service
17:14:46 [nigel]
.. provider to a large content platform, that their French subtitling and captioning team had run
17:14:55 [nigel]
.. into an issue where they couldn't get superscript and subscript characters.
17:15:10 [nigel]
.. They turn out to be more important in French than in English because France has a
17:15:20 [nigel]
.. governmental organisation that sets standards for the language.
17:15:45 [nigel]
.. Those standards say that the abbreviation of first and second, like 1er, must be in superscript.
17:16:02 [nigel]
.. Everyone in France understands it if they are not superscript, but French standards are to put
17:16:08 [nigel]
.. the ordinal numeral as superscript.
17:16:20 [nigel]
.. So this is a shortcoming of IMSC, evidently.
17:16:35 [nigel]
.. The good news is there's already a TTML2 feature that allows super or sub to be specified.
17:16:50 [nigel]
.. Because we have this significant issue and other backlog issues it seems like a good time to
17:16:54 [nigel]
.. do a minor revision to IMSC
17:16:58 [nigel]
cyril: Is there a list?
17:17:06 [nigel]
pal: Yes, I'll go through it in a few seconds.
17:17:21 [nigel]
.. The intent is a minor revision, and fix this substantial issue.
17:17:36 [nigel]
.. I've gone through, and sent an email to the reflector yesterday, and taken a stab
17:17:49 [nigel]
.. at labelling the backlog issues that we should try to tackle if we are going to embark on this.
17:17:58 [nigel]
.. I labelled this as 1.3 because we're at 1.2 now.
17:18:27 [nigel]
.. There's one big category of backlog issues which are related to the results of a liaison with ARIB,
17:18:40 [nigel]
.. a Japanese organisation that have defined a profile of TTML for the Japanese broadcast market.
17:19:02 [nigel]
.. Where we left off is we alerted ARIB about 1.1 or 1.2 and got suggestions back that require more
17:19:13 [nigel]
.. detailed discussion to make sure we would not do something that would not work for them.
17:19:18 [nigel]
.. We never got that collaboration going.
17:19:30 [nigel]
.. Something we should probably do would be to send a communication to ARIB saying we are about
17:19:40 [nigel]
.. to start on IMSC1.3, now is the time to have this discussion.
17:19:46 [nigel]
.. Otherwise those issues will stay in the backlog.
17:20:15 [nigel]
Nigel: Atsushi, do you have any contacts there?
17:20:33 [nigel]
atsushi: There is NHK, but my main contact in this area has moved company, so I need to.
17:20:49 [nigel]
.. establish new contacts. I'm not sure if we should write a liaison or make a direct contact.
17:20:52 [nigel]
Nigel: We can do both
17:21:11 [nigel]
atsushi: Both would be fine. There stance is not to be too responsive generally.
17:21:24 [nigel]
pal: That's fine, I just don't think we should do anything without active collaboration with ARIB.
17:21:28 [nigel]
atsushi: I understand, yes
17:21:53 [nigel]
.. Let me contact during lunch, if I can, today, some colleagues and give me the chance to feed back
17:21:58 [nigel]
.. during the afternoon session.
17:22:14 [nigel]
pal: If we go ahead we should craft a formal liaison.
17:22:17 [nigel]
atsushi: Yes, of course.
17:22:33 [nigel]
pal: In terms of backlog...
17:22:53 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Aimsc1.3 IMSC 1.3 issues
17:23:36 [nigel]
pal: I suggest running through them, and taking notes if there are any.
17:23:40 [nigel]
.. [go throughs the list]
17:23:46 [nigel]
.. Super/sub support
17:23:49 [nigel]
.. Factor out HRM
17:24:03 [nigel]
.. Namespace name docs are out of date - not a spec issue, a repo issue
17:24:22 [nigel]
.. Editorial bug about the wrong feature being referenced with time offset
17:24:41 [nigel]
.. Improve the introduction
17:24:51 [nigel]
.. Improve para wording for WCAG SC 1.1.1
17:25:07 [nigel]
.. was controversial and text is convoluted, time to clean up.
17:25:24 [atsushi]
scribe+
17:25:43 [atsushi]
pal: IMSCvnext is prepared for future version, and the same as backlog
17:25:50 [atsushi]
... also should be fine to be removed
17:26:16 [atsushi]
... one live feedback on character sets of Japanese
17:26:29 [atsushi]
s/pal: /Pierre: /
17:26:39 [atsushi]
... some suggestion from APA on description on semantics
17:26:45 [atsushi]
... we should at least ping folks
17:27:11 [atsushi]
... make sure we will pick in next slot
17:27:33 [atsushi]
... folloinwg three items, 493, 492, 490, are not blocker, or even we can close
17:27:46 [atsushi]
... 489 is errata
17:27:55 [atsushi]
... 484 is super long discussion thread
17:28:34 [atsushi]
... forcedDisplay and visibility hidden, neither anything we can do or need to do , but we should again back on this discussion
17:28:49 [atsushi]
... nice to have, but no particular point to have
17:29:08 [atsushi]
... #82, will not touch image profile, unless it is broken
17:29:15 [atsushi]
nigel: it exists and broken already
17:29:38 [atsushi]
pierre: unless somebody have absolute need...
17:29:51 [atsushi]
nigel: serious question, any issue actually impact to image profile?
17:30:09 [atsushi]
pierre: three issues pointed above - 493, 492, 490
17:30:24 [atsushi]
nigel: ok to keep open unless touching these three, or something need to do?
17:30:31 [atsushi]
pierre: fine to keep open
17:30:42 [atsushi]
nigel: we only update text profile in 1.3, without image profile
17:31:01 [atsushi]
... people could use image profile from previous ones like 1.2 or even 1.0, it this correct
17:31:38 [atsushi]
pierre: not sure, only objection is working or not, would not touch anything more on this unless something happens
17:31:40 [atsushi]
nigel: ok
17:31:57 [atsushi]
pierre: agree on concept, personally, anyway
17:32:09 [atsushi]
nigel: all sound good to me
17:32:54 [atsushi]
pierre: my three requests, one to decive what to proceed, create a liaison with ARIB, discussion with APA on 503
17:33:21 [pal]
https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/524#issuecomment-598299006
17:33:40 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/524#issuecomment-598299006 Comment regarding APA feedback to resolve
17:34:22 [nigel]
Topic: Next part of the day's meetings
17:34:30 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/5d9bf691-6f90-45b9-9c2a-b89faaedb191/ Joint meeting with APA and MEIG
17:35:04 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:35:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:35:28 [nigel]
Nigel: [temporary adjournement]
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21:01:40 [nigel]
Topic: Afternoon session
21:02:42 [nigel]
Nigel: Welcome everyone to the afternoon session.
21:03:28 [nigel]
Subtopic: IMSC (continued)
21:04:04 [nigel]
Pierre: Proposal is to proceed with a minor revision of IMSC with the primary objective of addressing the lack of support for superscript and subscript
21:04:26 [nigel]
.. and secondarily resolving outstanding editorial and blocking issues in the backlog.
21:04:46 [nigel]
PROPOSAL: Proceed with a minor revision of IMSC as detailed in the minutes
21:04:51 [nigel]
Nigel: Any objections?
21:05:27 [nigel]
Pierre: Then I think the other one, assuming we go ahead, is to get a liaison going to ARIB,
21:05:32 [sideshowbarker]
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21:05:34 [Bernd]
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21:05:34 [nigel]
.. a last shot at getting this done.
21:05:48 [nigel]
Present+ Bernd, sideshowbarker
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21:06:26 [nigel]
PROPOSAL: Liaise with ARIB about feature improvements in IMSC, specifically the backlog issues
21:06:34 [nigel]
Nigel: Any objections to either of the above?
21:06:42 [atsushi]
rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
21:07:03 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: Proceed with a minor revision of IMSC as detailed in the minutes
21:07:10 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: Liaise with ARIB about feature improvements in IMSC, specifically the backlog issues
21:08:12 [nigel]
Nigel: We should think about whether industry needs us to keep going with multiple
21:08:20 [nigel]
.. active versions of IMSC or if we can deprecate any of them.
21:08:47 [nigel]
.. Similarly, should we mark it as "allows changes" rather than continuing with the version numbering approach.
21:09:02 [nigel]
Pierre: Good question. If we allow changes, what's the approach to removing unused features.
21:09:17 [nigel]
atsushi: Updateable Recs can accept candidate amendments or candidate new features.
21:09:23 [nigel]
.. At any time we can change these candidate changes.
21:09:36 [nigel]
.. Once the candidate changes pass the same procedure as normal Rec, including
21:09:54 [nigel]
.. HR, WR, AC Review, everything will be merged into the Rec as normative parts of the specification.
21:10:14 [nigel]
.. In theory everything that is similar to CR even if the spec is published with a Rec URL.
21:10:20 [nigel]
.. Anything can be done.
21:10:44 [nigel]
Nigel: So any candidate change can be made, even deprecation or removal of features?
21:10:47 [nigel]
atsushi: Yes
21:10:58 [nigel]
Pierre: Even those changed versions of the Rec are dated, is that right?
21:11:40 [nigel]
atsushi: Yes the publication date changes, even with candidate amendments
21:12:41 [nigel]
Pierre: Hard to see any reason not to do it
21:13:02 [nigel]
Nigel: @sideshowbarker and I have been discussing this, there are significant markup requirements
21:13:14 [nigel]
.. for the candidate changes, but there is tooling on the way to help with that.
21:13:22 [nigel]
atsushi: I never want to have to do this for TTML!
21:13:36 [nigel]
Nigel: We can decide about the allows-changes status before we go to CR.
21:13:50 [nigel]
.. Any other points on IMSC for us to think about?
21:14:02 [nigel]
no other points
21:14:17 [nigel]
Present+ Dana
21:14:23 [nigel]
zakim, who is on the call?
21:14:24 [Zakim]
Present: Bernd, sideshowbarker, Dana
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21:15:04 [nigel]
Subtopic: WebVTT Interop and issues
21:15:15 [nigel]
gkatsev: Thanks for coming, I'd love to hear about the WebVTT interop stuff
21:18:00 [nigel]
present+ Jean-Yves_Avenard
21:18:47 [nigel]
dana: [Presents slides] Hi, I'm Dana, first TPAC, I work on the WebKit team at Apple
21:19:06 [nigel]
.. For some time I've been researching WebVTT and learning about the problems with it,
21:19:11 [nigel]
.. why it's not widely used.
21:19:18 [nigel]
.. I'm hear to present what I've learned through my research,
21:19:27 [nigel]
.. and some ideas for making it more attractive for websites to use.
21:19:39 [nigel]
.. [slide: Recap of previous years' efforts]
21:19:52 [nigel]
.. Will talk about where we are in the discussion, usage of WebVTT in the wild,
21:20:05 [nigel]
.. Web Platform Test interop test results and what they mean,
21:20:17 [nigel]
.. bugs and missing features in WebKit and the WPT infrastructure,
21:20:21 [nigel]
.. and then ideas for fixing things.
21:20:31 [nigel]
.. [slide: Recap of previous years' efforts]
21:20:43 [nigel]
.. In previous years we discussed adding a generic text track cue class.
21:20:55 [nigel]
.. But important to make sure we're building on something that works, i.e. WebVTT.
21:21:10 [nigel]
.. Clear to everyone that WebVTT is not in the state it needs to be given it's not widely used.
21:21:22 [nigel]
.. WebVTT rendering is rarely used on high-traffic websites
21:21:35 [nigel]
.. Some sites use WebVTT format, but render cues themselves, e.g. Hulu.
21:21:47 [nigel]
.. Suggests rendering is the reason it's unattractive.
21:21:56 [nigel]
.. Problem that sites render it themselves because they don't have access to the
21:22:05 [nigel]
.. accessibility features that are only possible through using WebVTT.
21:22:19 [nigel]
.. Without using WebVTT, cannot get subtitles in PiP or full screen on the iPhone.
21:22:35 [nigel]
.. Users lose out on acccessibility and other features when sites use don't use WebVTT.
21:22:45 [nigel]
.. Anecdata: Interop is a problem.
21:22:54 [nigel]
.. WebVTT appears differently on different browsers, so it's not reliable.
21:23:00 [nigel]
.. [slide] WPT results
21:23:12 [nigel]
.. Websites tell us they don't like interop of WebVTT between browsers.
21:23:16 [nigel]
.. Backed up by results of the test.
21:23:25 [nigel]
.. Rendering scores are critically low.
21:23:32 [nigel]
.. No browser passes >30% of rendering tests.
21:23:41 [nigel]
.. Chrome, Edge and Safari pass <6% of the rendering tests.
21:23:52 [nigel]
.. For the past month I've been going through WebKit's rendering test failures,
21:23:58 [nigel]
.. and categorising the bugs.
21:24:03 [nigel]
.. Most are implementation issues,
21:24:13 [nigel]
.. 6 are likely bugs in the tests or the test infrastructure.
21:24:18 [nigel]
.. I'm also new to WebVTT so I could be wrong.
21:24:34 [nigel]
.. This is approximately how it is.
21:24:42 [nigel]
.. I'm planning on filing these issues.
21:24:52 [nigel]
.. We already have them in the WebKit bug database for our own tracking purposes.
21:25:01 [nigel]
.. Also planning on posting the 6 test bugs into the WPT repo.
21:25:14 [nigel]
.. [slide] Stand-out bug is accessibility preferences
21:25:32 [nigel]
.. Someone already opened web-platform-tests/wpt#46453
21:25:44 [nigel]
.. Problem is on Mac and iPhone user can set accessibility preferences for captions,
21:25:54 [nigel]
.. but the WPT tests don't take those into account, so we fail almost all the tests.
21:26:07 [nigel]
.. The default style we apply via our system settings and the test infrastructure doesn't know about that.
21:26:16 [nigel]
.. Similar issue in Chrome I beleive.
21:26:21 [nigel]
.. Couple of solutions:
21:26:33 [nigel]
.. 1. Turn off accessibility styling before running tests, in the test env.
21:26:49 [nigel]
.. We don't prefer this because we also want to test the interaction between user styling and rendering.
21:26:59 [nigel]
.. 2. Add the concept of a cue window to the WebVTT spec.
21:27:04 [nigel]
.. There's discussion about this under the issue.
21:27:15 [nigel]
.. Exposing this concept of a cue window would allow the websites to override the system
21:27:26 [nigel]
.. styling of the cue window, which we can then incorporate into the tests.
21:27:43 [nigel]
.. We prefer the second solution, to ensure the accessibility.
21:27:53 [nigel]
.. [slide] I also found other issues with the tests.
21:28:05 [nigel]
.. We fail ~80 of them for non-obvious reasons, when it looks to me as though the two images
21:28:20 [nigel]
.. are identical or almost identical, maybe differing by blurriness, and I'd like to get some help
21:28:24 [nigel]
.. to look into why this is the case.
21:28:38 [nigel]
.. More obvious bugs: inconsistencies between the expected and the actual, like border around the video.
21:28:43 [nigel]
.. Those are about 6.
21:28:56 [nigel]
.. The other 35 are webkit bugs we are tracking and dedicating time to fixin.
21:29:14 [nigel]
.. [slide] We think the solution to WebVTT interop is first filing and testing the bugs in the
21:29:30 [nigel]
.. test infrastructure. We also support proposing a WebVTT focus area at Interop 2025,
21:29:39 [nigel]
.. deadline is Oct 9 2024.
21:29:50 [nigel]
.. Would like feedback and suggestions on what a good proposal would look like.
21:30:04 [nigel]
.. Even if we are not successful at getting WebVTT into Interop 2025, we are still committed to fixing
21:30:12 [nigel]
.. out bugs to match WebKit's WebVTT implementation to the spec.
21:30:25 [nigel]
.. We think it's important to the health of the web that pages can rely on native subtitle presentation.
21:30:34 [nigel]
.. This would allow for more accessibility features to be accessible by users.
21:30:40 [nigel]
.. That's it, thank you!
21:30:41 [nigel]
q?
21:30:53 [nigel]
gkatsev: Thank you very much, that was awesome!
21:31:08 [nigel]
dana: If it's interesting I have the spreadsheet of bugs and what it impacts.
21:31:26 [nigel]
Pierre: Going back to your first slides, these are great numbers.
21:31:33 [cyril]
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21:31:33 [nigel]
.. Have you also collected numbers on IMSC in the process?
21:31:38 [nigel]
dana: No, just WebVTT
21:31:47 [nigel]
pal: Any sense of what the numbers might be for IMSC and TTML?
21:31:48 [cyril]
RRSAgent, pointer
21:31:48 [RRSAgent]
See https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-irc#T21-31-48
21:31:51 [nigel]
dana: No I haven't.
21:32:05 [nigel]
pal: I think many of the same results exist for IMSC and TTML where rendering is done
21:32:14 [nigel]
.. by page code, and the same accessibility challenges exist for TTML
21:32:25 [nigel]
jcraig: Are there WPT tests for TTML?
21:32:33 [nigel]
gkatsev: No, because it's not natively supported
21:32:42 [nigel]
jcraig: That would be the first step before doing this
21:32:52 [nigel]
pal: The same exact issues that you've noted exist for TTML and there are some platforms
21:33:05 [nigel]
.. that only use TTML and are forced to use a polyfill or burn in after rendering server-side.
21:33:24 [nigel]
dana: It would be preferable to use WebVTT rather than IMSC to make the accessibility features work
21:33:26 [nigel]
q+
21:33:33 [nigel]
pal: Many of the same considerations apply to both
21:33:34 [jcraig]
q+ to mention FCC requirements for captions
21:33:49 [nigel]
gkatsev: Making this a baseline for the future, for HTML fragment cues are both methods of getting
21:34:03 [nigel]
.. IMSC support natively, so having really good WebVTT interop will allow those to work better also.
21:34:20 [nigel]
dana: It could sound a little far-fetched imagining a future where WebVTT is the most used format.
21:34:26 [nigel]
.. We think this is the first step, to improve interop
21:34:41 [nigel]
.. Makes that future more of a possibility than it is now.
21:34:41 [jcraig]
q+ to mention WPT, okay to write WPT tests for any spec, even if not implemented; allows test-driven development
21:34:44 [gkatsev]
scribe+
21:35:13 [gkatsev]
nigel: I think it's a really good idea to do what you're suggesting here to look at higher problem spaces
21:35:34 [gkatsev]
.. we need to figure out how to make subtitles accessible and see how things go from there
21:35:50 [gkatsev]
.. webvtt interop is a good baseline but there's missing features
21:36:03 [gkatsev]
.. there's things in ttml that can't be done in webvtt
21:36:25 [gkatsev]
.. there's also format issues like server-side transforms
21:36:54 [gkatsev]
.. isn't necessarily a good fit for a lot of reasons, speaking for the BBC
21:37:35 [gkatsev]
.. I've definitely seen problems for mapping from ttml into webvtt
21:37:37 [jcraig]
q+ to mention overriding the user styles in the LayoutTest or ideally WPT test
21:37:43 [jcraig]
ack me
21:37:43 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to mention FCC requirements for captions and to mention WPT, okay to write WPT tests for any spec, even if not implemented; allows test-driven development and to
21:37:47 [Zakim]
... mention overriding the user styles in the LayoutTest or ideally WPT test
21:37:51 [jcraig]
ack nigel
21:38:10 [jcraig]
qq+
21:38:35 [gkatsev]
nigel: my vision of an accessible way would be something that make it more agnostic from webvtt
21:39:10 [nigel]
jcraig: Thank you for the presentation, a few points back.
21:39:25 [nigel]
jcraig: It's ok to write WPT tests for things that have a spec
21:39:29 [nigel]
.. for example include .tentative in the test name
21:39:39 [nigel]
.. It's common to do that for test driven development on the web platform.
21:39:47 [nigel]
qq+ to mention IMSC and TTML test suites
21:39:51 [nigel]
ack jcraig
21:39:52 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to react to nigel
21:40:00 [nigel]
.. We already have a CI environment that can run those.
21:40:11 [nigel]
.. Additionally, one of the reasons that this test is important is that there are FCC
21:40:23 [nigel]
.. requirements, and have been for almost a decade, about caption styles,
21:40:43 [nigel]
.. that we support on our platforms, and even games platforms support,
21:41:00 [nigel]
.. but I do agree that we should not bypass the accessibility settings.
21:41:23 [nigel]
.. There may be some intermediary settings, like Dean Jackson had a way to make OS level settings
21:41:36 [nigel]
.. before the test run, and write different tests for different OS level settings.
21:41:47 [nigel]
.. Then you can test the rendering part and the customisation settings.
21:41:52 [nigel]
eric_carlson: I think that's an excellent idea.
21:42:02 [nigel]
.. In WebKit's own internal tests we ignore the system styling completely.
21:42:09 [nigel]
.. It's a way to have consistent tests.
21:42:20 [nigel]
.. Your idea makes a lot more sense.
21:42:27 [nigel]
jcraig: Dean's tests were something like reduced motion.
21:42:32 [nigel]
eric_carlson: I have lots of ideas about how to do it.
21:43:07 [atsushi]
nigel: TTML has large set of test suite, which is not on wpt
21:43:20 [nigel]
ack me
21:43:21 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to react to nigel to mention IMSC and TTML test suites
21:43:32 [jcraig]
jcraig: other tests have been ported to WPT...
21:43:39 [nigel]
pal: On this issue of WPT tests, how do you create tests that there is no way to expose on a web platform?
21:43:50 [nigel]
.. Are you deliberately showing that they're all failing? Is that useful?
21:44:30 [nigel]
jcraig: TTML you want to render in the browser, right?
21:44:36 [nigel]
.. If not then no point in adding to WPT.
21:44:52 [nigel]
.. Not sure how familiar you are, it's a massive CI platform that tests every feature on every web platform.
21:44:57 [gkatsev]
q+
21:45:06 [nigel]
.. It's become the expectation of the place to write the tests if they're platform independent.
21:45:22 [nigel]
pal: I'm a big fan, just not sure if it's useful to write TTML tests because they would fail by design.
21:45:32 [nigel]
jcraig: I wouldn't write a lot of them, just write a base level of coverage.
21:45:33 [sideshowbarker]
q+ to comment
21:45:46 [nigel]
pal: Not trying to convince anyone, just pointing out that we have both in the ecosystem.
21:45:58 [nigel]
.. Until and unless one gets 100% of the market we are going to have these issues that were
21:46:02 [nigel]
.. highlighted at the beginning.
21:46:06 [nigel]
.. Two options are:
21:46:22 [nigel]
.. 1. Try to get to agreement to use only one. not worked over 12 years.
21:46:30 [nigel]
.. 2. Support both, just like there are lots of image codecs etc.
21:46:46 [nigel]
.. Until we resolve this issue (note zero objection from me for fixing webvtt),
21:47:01 [nigel]
.. we are going to keep having the same issue that you found at the beginning.
21:47:14 [nigel]
.. We need to solve the fundamental issue before we get a great developer and user experience.
21:47:19 [nigel]
.. Maybe now is not the right time.
21:47:21 [nigel]
q+
21:47:22 [atsushi]
TTML2 test suite (large set of TTML XML files) -> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2-tests
21:47:41 [sideshowbarker]
q-
21:47:50 [nigel]
jcraig: Sounds like no objection to more VTT testing or to proposing interop area for Interop 2025,
21:48:07 [nigel]
.. or for fixing the main issues of WebVTT even if it doesn't solve the wider long term timed text issues.
21:48:10 [nigel]
dana: It can't hurt
21:48:22 [nigel]
gkatsev: I think Interop 2025 would be awesome because it would feed back into the spec,
21:48:27 [nigel]
.. and allow us to get to Rec.
21:48:30 [nigel]
ack gkatsev
21:48:40 [cyril]
q+
21:48:46 [nigel]
.. ON the TTML / IMSC side I think it might be a bit early for WPT tests, but with the work
21:49:02 [nigel]
.. on streaming text tracks and html fragment, when that's further along, we could write WPT tests
21:49:12 [nigel]
.. for them, especially if part of the use case for that is native IMSC support.
21:49:27 [nigel]
jcraig: Dana, from my experience, I wrote several hundred tests last year, you're probably right
21:49:30 [nigel]
.. that there are bugs.
21:49:43 [nigel]
gkatsev: Definitely bugs, I've seen maybe 10% of tests are invalid.
21:49:51 [nigel]
jcraig: First implementer finds the bugs!
21:50:04 [nigel]
dana: That would be a goal before interop, that we have a functioning test suite.
21:50:06 [nigel]
q?
21:50:13 [atsushi]
scribe+
21:50:29 [atsushi]
nigel: one of the point in testing difficult, approach is by design by design
21:50:41 [atsushi]
... use of preference setting is pain
21:51:05 [atsushi]
... last year we discussed and got some responce on this, web principle document from TAG
21:51:44 [atsushi]
... observation made by me, use of caption is so wide, these days use cases are widely spread
21:51:51 [atsushi]
... not like 20 years ago
21:52:15 [atsushi]
... broder and too many use cases and users exist now, incl. disabilities
21:52:17 [jcraig]
The TAG's Design Principles issue Nigel mentioned: https://w3ctag.github.io/design-principles/#do-not-expose-use-of-assistive-tech
21:52:26 [atsushi]
... we need to revisit to these for principle design
21:52:47 [atsushi]
... other side, totally different display than native captions
21:52:56 [atsushi]
... we would not get usage data
21:53:08 [atsushi]
... will not get source of data for improovement of us
21:53:30 [atsushi]
... your horming users allows to gather statistics of use, it helps
21:53:50 [atsushi]
... you can only observe on or off for WebVTT
21:53:59 [atsushi]
... not site customizations
21:54:24 [atsushi]
???: if in specific site, data could be collected
21:55:00 [atsushi]
nigel: talking about is that player page and what is key focus
21:55:21 [atsushi]
???2: definitely agree that captions are widely used now
21:55:27 [gkatsev]
s/???/Jean-Yves Avenard/
21:55:35 [atsushi]
... problem with exposing user preferatnce exists
21:55:39 [gkatsev]
s/???2/eric_carlson/
21:55:51 [atsushi]
... anybody customize styles are uniquely identifiable
21:56:06 [atsushi]
... inject large fingerprinting vector
21:56:17 [atsushi]
... absoletely no way to expose
21:56:22 [gkatsev]
q?
21:56:33 [gkatsev]
ack nigel
21:56:44 [atsushi]
nigel: if the world changes and allows access to these preferences, it cause another side
21:57:19 [atsushi]
cyril: try to give TTML and WebVTT information
21:57:40 [nigel]
.. Netflix produces both styles of captions, the vast majority that is consumed is TTML.
21:57:50 [nigel]
.. A small amount WebVTT and a small amount image.
21:58:02 [nigel]
.. There's no way for Netflix to migrate to WebVTT short or long term that I can see.
21:58:16 [nigel]
.. I'm curious, one of the problems we have with WebVTT, which we don't use on the web,
21:58:35 [nigel]
.. even on Safari, is the discrepancy between the Safari support vs iOS.
21:58:51 [nigel]
.. If you use Safari you don't get the same results with Core Media native playback.
21:59:10 [nigel]
.. Do you have a sense - WPT doesn't test native support, right - do you do internal testing?
21:59:26 [nigel]
jy: They do their testing, we do ours
21:59:32 [nigel]
eric_carlson: That's something we need to address
21:59:37 [nigel]
.. They don't support CSS etc.
21:59:49 [nigel]
cyril: The way we use WebVTT in Netflix is lots of p-list hooks.
21:59:55 [nigel]
.. Don't even know how to hook those into CSS
22:00:07 [nigel]
eric_carlson: They do now support CSS in WebVTT files, but they don't have a full-blown CSS engine.
22:00:17 [nigel]
.. We can certainly take files that they support and make sure that the rendering is the same in
22:00:21 [nigel]
.. WebKit and in Core Media.
22:00:37 [nigel]
cyril: As a content provider, the choice of WebVTT is not obvious because the differences mean we would
22:00:41 [nigel]
.. have to provide 2 versions.
22:00:46 [nigel]
eric_carlson: I agree that is a problem for us to fix
22:00:58 [nigel]
jy: Does it matter that there are small differences as long as the content is there?
22:01:15 [nigel]
Cyril: We don't care about pixel accuracy, but for Japanese you care about Rubys, vertical text being
22:01:18 [nigel]
.. rendered correctly.
22:01:35 [nigel]
.. Obviously we have positioning requirements to make sure captions don't clash with content in the image.
22:01:41 [nigel]
.. If the position is off it's a problem.
22:01:49 [nigel]
gkatsev: It's about feature support
22:02:06 [nigel]
pal: I think this is actually the core issue, anecdotal evidence I've heard is when a platform goes ahead
22:02:16 [gkatsev]
q?
22:02:17 [nigel]
.. and tries to use native, and there is native support for TTML in a bunch of players, they realise
22:02:19 [gkatsev]
ack cyril
22:02:22 [gkatsev]
q+
22:02:23 [nigel]
.. that no two players are the same.
22:02:33 [nigel]
.. Some diffs subtle, then they decide to render themselves.
22:02:40 [nigel]
.. Trying to get to interop is a really good idea.
22:02:46 [nigel]
.. Otherwise folks will continue doing it themselves.
22:02:48 [nigel]
q?
22:02:54 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:02:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-minutes.html nigel
22:03:01 [nigel]
ack gk
22:03:14 [nigel]
gkatsev: A couple of years ago a guy (Dan?) at Demuxed talked about how and why they decided
22:03:30 [nigel]
.. to render everything themselves. Needing to be FCC compliant made them have to render
22:03:40 [nigel]
.. themselves, particularly on set top boxes.
22:03:46 [nigel]
.. Interop2025 would be awesome.
22:03:53 [nigel]
.. My question: do you need anything from us for that?
22:04:03 [nigel]
.. We'd be happy to help, as much as I can, for that.
22:04:10 [nigel]
dana: No I think...
22:04:23 [nigel]
eric_carlson: Signals of support, making it clear, I don't know how, that if you think it's a good idea
22:04:29 [nigel]
.. that you think it's a good idea with the WPT committee.
22:04:36 [nigel]
.. Coming from the WG would be extremely helpful.
22:04:45 [nigel]
gkatsev: Is there an existing mechanism for that?
22:04:53 [nigel]
eric_carlson: I don't know but we'll figure it out and let you know.
22:05:03 [nigel]
jcraig: Typically there are proposals for new focus areas.
22:05:14 [nigel]
.. If the WG agrees, one of the Chairs could just comment in that issue.
22:05:22 [nigel]
.. e.g. to say Timed Text supports this.
22:05:40 [nigel]
dana: When you submit proposals to interop they're on GitHub and you can add discussion comments.
22:05:46 [nigel]
.. Once the proposal exists I will share it.
22:05:53 [nigel]
gkatsev: Can you post it to the timed text mailing list?
22:05:55 [nigel]
dana:: ok
22:05:58 [nigel]
s/::/:
22:05:59 [jcraig]
Current Interop Proposals https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop/issues
22:06:36 [jcraig]
https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Afocus-area-proposal
22:06:37 [nigel]
gkatsev: I think we're out of time for this topic, technically out of time for our scheduled session.
22:07:28 [nigel]
gkatsev: On the ATTRIBUTES PR, Nigel and I had the question about the lang and label and kind
22:07:32 [nigel]
.. interact with the track element.
22:07:40 [nigel]
.. That would be really good to disambiguate.
22:08:15 [gkatsev]
-> https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/pull/523 new ATTRIBUTES block
22:08:15 [nigel]
Subtopic: New ATTRIBUTES block w3c/webvtt#523
22:08:26 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/pull/523
22:08:44 [nigel]
jcraig: Need to assess, if there's a mismatch, which one wins.
22:08:49 [nigel]
.. I don't have a strong opinion.
22:09:00 [nigel]
.. Main reason we want it in the VTT is sometimes there's no HTML as an intermediary,
22:09:05 [nigel]
.. so the track information is missing.
22:09:19 [nigel]
gkatsev: That makes sense, my question would be would this also allow a change in HTML
22:09:26 [nigel]
.. if we're adding precedence to those attributes.
22:09:45 [nigel]
jcraig: I would expect that whatever we land on, we could have the same thing reflected on the track element
22:09:58 [nigel]
eric_carlson: We also would want to add some text to the spec describing the rules of precedence,
22:10:01 [nigel]
.. whichever way we go.
22:10:12 [nigel]
Nigel: How are you going to work out which way to go?
22:10:19 [nigel]
eric_carlson: We'll put a stick in the ground and we'll be right.
22:10:27 [nigel]
gkatsev: My assumption is the track element takes precedence
22:10:36 [nigel]
eric_carlson: That would be right, it would override what's in the file.
22:10:51 [nigel]
gkatsev: Can still have the precedence rules in the VTT spec but would also need them in HTML
22:11:01 [nigel]
eric_carlson: HTML doesn't say anything about how to process the contents of the VTT file,
22:11:05 [nigel]
.. so maybe no change needed.
22:11:14 [nigel]
jcraig: The other editorial suggestions seem fine to me.
22:11:29 [nigel]
.. There was a section question, was just my unfamiliarity with bikeshed.
22:11:46 [nigel]
gkatsev: Should we open an HTML issue now around this to get the conversation going.
22:11:56 [nigel]
jcraig: I'll take that as an action and write it into PR 523 so I don't forget it.
22:12:18 [nigel]
pal: On that last point, if you run into any issues, I can help, please don't hesitate to ask.
22:12:28 [nigel]
jcraig: You mean pushback on HTML?
22:12:38 [nigel]
pal: Sure, ultimately the question is who writes those tests.
22:12:50 [nigel]
.. As Nigel pointed out there's a large body of tests to port to WPT.
22:13:11 [nigel]
.. With reference renderers once we've overcome the issue of should we have that at all in WPT,
22:13:19 [nigel]
.. I'm confident that we'll have the resources to make that happen.
22:14:00 [nigel]
group confusion caused because Pierre misheard!
22:14:15 [nigel]
gkatsev: With that we can, unless there's anything specific to WebVTT right now we can end
22:14:42 [nigel]
SUMMARY: @cookiecrook to raise issue on HTML about track attribute precedence
22:14:58 [nigel]
Subtopic: Break
22:15:56 [nigel]
s/Break/DAPT
22:17:22 [gkatsev]
nigel: my goal is to get agreement or a plan to get dapt into CR
22:17:46 [gkatsev]
.. we have these 5 open issues
22:18:00 [gkatsev]
[shares screen to show dapt issues]
22:18:20 [gkatsev]
.. lots of activity lately
22:18:27 [gkatsev]
.. 4 of these have PRs open for them
22:18:43 [gkatsev]
.. What I would like to do is go over these PRs and see if there's any actions
22:19:02 [gkatsev]
.. and merge these PRs and do a CfC to request transition to CR
22:19:17 [gkatsev]
.. which would be subject to group policy, which would be 2 weeks
22:19:31 [gkatsev]
.. which would give a change to review the spec as a whole
22:19:52 [gkatsev]
.. editorial things can be fixed, the substantive things are the important bit
22:20:00 [gkatsev]
cyril: what if there in a big change?
22:20:10 [gkatsev]
nigel: we can do a new CR snapshot
22:20:20 [gkatsev]
cyril: the signal is that people can start implementing
22:20:31 [gkatsev]
nigel: it triggers a couple of things like starting to do a changelog
22:20:59 [gkatsev]
.. when we met with the APA earlier in the day, it would've been helpful to see a changelog
22:21:14 [gkatsev]
.. and we can share with other HR groups
22:21:24 [gkatsev]
.. also makes a need for an IR
22:21:43 [gkatsev]
atsushi: we need to test but not requirement for CR
22:21:50 [gkatsev]
nigel: yes, but needed to leave CR
22:22:06 [gkatsev]
.. I suggest we have a dapt-tests repo and start putting stuff there
22:22:34 [gkatsev]
.. we already have a repo
22:22:52 [gkatsev]
atsushi: you need a link to the IR to pass pub rules
22:22:55 [gkatsev]
.. can be a stub
22:23:03 [gkatsev]
.. can be a wiki page
22:23:17 [gkatsev]
nigel: we can have a page on the TT wiki
22:23:29 [gkatsev]
nigel: start from the oldest
22:24:00 [gkatsev]
nigel: we need to request delta reviews for HR
22:24:16 [gkatsev]
nigel: the first one dapt#44
22:24:40 [gkatsev]
.. cyril proposed adding a paragraph note
22:24:46 [gkatsev]
.. and there's a PR for that addition
22:24:55 [gkatsev]
there's an approval from me
22:25:07 [gkatsev]
.. which we can merge unless there are issues
22:25:24 [gkatsev]
nigel: next one, dapt#75 define restrictions per script type
22:25:30 [gkatsev]
.. we have a PR for this
22:25:36 [gkatsev]
.. which has been approved
22:25:45 [gkatsev]
.. I think there's some changes
22:25:49 [gkatsev]
.. but they're small
22:26:09 [gkatsev]
.. if you're in a prerecording script you shouldn't have audio recordings
22:26:40 [gkatsev]
.. and either synthesized or audio recoding
22:26:45 [gkatsev]
.. I can merge during the break
22:26:59 [gkatsev]
nigel: the next one dapt#227, quite a big one
22:27:07 [gkatsev]
.. also a PR, which is approved
22:27:32 [gkatsev]
.. the idea is to capture metadata for script text to know what it represents
22:27:55 [gkatsev]
.. and we have a top level scriptRepresents and a represents on every event tag, which is inherited
22:28:30 [gkatsev]
.. the exciting bit is the content-descriptor
22:28:41 [gkatsev]
.. we have a registry of content descriptors
22:29:19 [gkatsev]
.. hierarchical scheme, like audio, audio:dialogue
22:29:46 [gkatsev]
cyril: think of it as you have a time text part and you're annotating whether the text corresponds to dialog or text on screen
22:29:54 [gkatsev]
.. can be used for translation
22:30:11 [gkatsev]
.. and produce subtitles files or dubbing script
22:30:22 [gkatsev]
.. the origin for the info to produce all types of content
22:30:53 [gkatsev]
nigel: there's a constrait; if you say a script event has a descriptor, but at the document level doesn't include it
22:30:53 [gkatsev]
.. it's an error
22:31:08 [gkatsev]
cyril: document level helps do an early error so there's no surprises
22:31:35 [gkatsev]
nigel: you can be more specific in script event but if you can't use something that wasn't given
22:31:49 [gkatsev]
.. delimiter is . not ;, so the PR needs a smal update
22:32:51 [gkatsev]
nigel: dapt#232, responding to implementation issue where people have non dapt impl files but have smpte times and there's not enough info to synchronize
22:33:19 [gkatsev]
.. we have a PR which introduces some metadata is section D, which describes the problem and adds some optional metadata
22:33:39 [gkatsev]
.. origin timecode, and start of programme timecode
22:33:58 [gkatsev]
.. if those two are the same they can synchronize
22:34:19 [gkatsev]
.. if they're different, you can synchronize, but would need some work for this
22:34:29 [gkatsev]
.. and they're completely optional
22:35:07 [gkatsev]
.. one of the key points is metadata only not intended to be used to perform direct synchronization offsets during presentations
22:35:11 [gkatsev]
q?
22:35:25 [gkatsev]
nigel: last one is dapt#233
22:35:33 [gkatsev]
.. no proposed change here
22:35:43 [gkatsev]
cyril: break discussion?
22:35:49 [gkatsev]
nigel: can we close with no action?
22:35:56 [gkatsev]
cyril: ok, let's do that
22:36:03 [gkatsev]
.. still discuss it during the break
22:36:43 [gkatsev]
nigel: proposal is to merge PR and then go through the admin needed to get a working group decision to request transition to CR
22:36:46 [gkatsev]
cyril: I support that
22:37:06 [gkatsev]
atsushi: I also support it
22:37:12 [nigel]
PROPOSAL: Merge the open Pull Requests and then go through the admin needed to get a WG decision to request transition to CR
22:37:25 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: Merge the open Pull Requests and then go through the admin needed to get a WG decision to request transition to CR
22:37:37 [nigel]
Subtopic: Break
22:37:49 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:37:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-minutes.html nigel
22:39:15 [nigel]
nigel has joined #tt
23:02:04 [nigel]
nigel has joined #tt
23:03:03 [nigel]
Topic: TTML2
23:04:52 [atsushi]
atsushi has joined #tt
23:05:03 [cyril]
cyril has joined #tt
23:05:09 [cyril]
scribe: cyril
23:05:35 [cyril]
nigel: first thing with TTML2, we've been in CR, the last snapshot is 3 years ago
23:05:42 [cyril]
... we should finish that off
23:05:46 [cyril]
.. what do we need for that?
23:05:53 [cyril]
... the implementation report
23:06:11 [cyril]
... shows that the test related to new things we have at least 1 implementation for most things
23:06:40 [cyril]
... that means we need a second implementation in order to proceed to REC
23:06:54 [cyril]
... we also have validation tests
23:07:12 [cyril]
.. I'm not sure the best way to have the second passing implementation?
23:07:20 [cyril]
... there are validators out there
23:07:45 [cyril]
... I don't think we've got any particular spec changes to make
23:08:18 [cyril]
... one option is to back out some changes
23:09:19 [cyril]
... we also have some open issues on TTML2 but we have not triaged them
23:09:53 [cyril]
... the easy path is just to do implementations
23:10:05 [cyril]
... it's more complicated if we want to make new changes
23:10:11 [cyril]
... because we don't have an active editor
23:10:26 [cyril]
... does anybody have resource availability?
23:10:37 [cyril]
pal: what's absolutely blocking and essential?
23:10:43 [cyril]
nigel: of what?
23:10:53 [cyril]
pal: all the syntax changes require new tests or not?
23:11:02 [cyril]
nigel: all of the tests are done
23:11:07 [cyril]
pal: what's missing?
23:11:11 [cyril]
cyril: implementations
23:11:29 [cyril]
nigel: there is one passing implementation
23:12:13 [cyril]
nigel: there are 2 separate issues
23:12:26 [cyril]
... as the spec stands right now to take to REC we just need a 2nd implementation
23:12:46 [cyril]
... the second problem is if we want to make further changes to the spec, we need an editor
23:13:11 [cyril]
pal: assuming we have the 2nd implementation, do we know of changes that are needed?
23:13:14 [cyril]
nigel: no
23:13:29 [cyril]
... but I need to do a serious runtrough of the open issues
23:14:14 [cyril]
... it's not zero work
23:14:36 [cyril]
pal: my inclination if I would be editor would be ignore everything that is not marked as blocking
23:14:50 [cyril]
nigel: that's fair
23:15:24 [nigel]
cyril: Reverse question to Pierre's: if we don't get the 2nd implementation how can we move the spec forward,
23:15:30 [nigel]
.. if we need to make a new change to TTML2?
23:15:45 [cyril]
nigel: if we edit a new change in that is substantive
23:15:55 [cyril]
.. we need to write tests and implementations that pass that
23:16:11 [cyril]
... as it stands we cannot move from CR to REC without second implementations
23:18:06 [cyril]
atsushi: once we have REC, if we need new changes we need WD, CR ...
23:18:47 [cyril]
... we can do another CR with just the changes that have 2 passing implementations
23:19:03 [cyril]
... and defer the non-passing tests to a future version
23:19:29 [cyril]
nigel: most of the ones not passing are validation test
23:19:43 [cyril]
.. for presentation there are audio and body features
23:20:03 [cyril]
... font embdedding family
23:20:15 [cyril]
... font selection strategy
23:20:31 [cyril]
... font shear
23:20:52 [cyril]
... image in body, including png
23:20:58 [cyril]
... region no default
23:21:12 [cyril]
... line shear
23:21:19 [cyril]
... image opacity
23:21:42 [cyril]
pal: we said we need 2 presentation engines?
23:21:44 [cyril]
nigel: yes
23:22:05 [cyril]
pal: for validation, there is a validation tool that can be checked and modified
23:22:12 [cyril]
... the presentation tests are more challenging
23:23:16 [cyril]
.. what was the second implementation for the 1st edition tests?
23:23:42 [cyril]
nigel: TTPE, IMSC.js or Adhere
23:24:11 [cyril]
... but at the time we considered validation and presentation as 2 implementations
23:25:42 [cyril]
... it was and still is adequate
23:25:49 [cyril]
... the requirements haven't changed
23:25:57 [cyril]
pal: ttval is relative easy to update
23:26:56 [cyril]
... so if ttval was added for both presentation and validation, would that be sufficient?
23:27:03 [cyril]
cyril: not for presentation
23:27:28 [cyril]
nigel: the audio descriptions would pass
23:28:30 [cyril]
nigel: the action is to rearrange the table so that for each feature you could see if it had a presentation and a validation test
23:28:40 [cyril]
pal: if all we need is a validator implementation, that can be done
23:30:14 [nigel]
.. in my mind, this is really about getting it done so we don't have to think about it anymore
23:30:32 [nigel]
cyril: The world has moved on without the 2nd implementation, and probably without the features at all.
23:30:38 [nigel]
pal: It's more about standards hygiene
23:30:41 [nigel]
Nigel: +1
23:33:33 [nigel]
Cyril: Are there any features in TTML2 required by DAPT?
23:33:38 [nigel]
Nigel: Good question I need to check.
23:33:59 [nigel]
Nigel: I will happily nominate Pierre as an editor of TTML2
23:34:39 [nigel]
Atsushi: Issue about the out of date banner on TTML2 old CR snapshot
23:34:52 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/2020/CR-ttml2-20200128/ TTML2 CR 2020-01-28 with banner
23:35:04 [nigel]
.. banner points to latest public recommendation but after that we have CR
23:35:13 [nigel]
.. The question is what do we want from the Outdated banner?
23:35:45 [nigel]
.. Do we want to point to the latest Rec from /TR/ttml2 or the latest publication?
23:35:55 [nigel]
.. or some link to current history.
23:36:12 [nigel]
.. There could be a possibility that everything before the latest Rec points to the Rec, and
23:36:22 [nigel]
.. after the published Rec everything points to the latest publicatino.
23:36:26 [nigel]
s/ino/ion
23:37:28 [nigel]
Nigel: I think that makes sense, before a Rec point to the Rec that follows,
23:37:35 [nigel]
.. and after Rec point to the latest publication.
23:37:52 [nigel]
atsushi: I will raise this and talk to the systems team about it, if that's okay for everyone?
23:38:57 [nigel]
Cyril: OK sure
23:39:08 [nigel]
atsushi: I will draft the text and then ask for review on the TTWG mailing list.
23:39:49 [nigel]
pal: Conclusion on TTML2 2nd Edition?
23:39:59 [nigel]
Nigel: My conclusion was that:
23:40:05 [nigel]
.. 1. Add Pierre as an Editor
23:40:06 [cpn]
cpn has joined #tt
23:40:14 [cpn]
present+ Chris_Needham
23:40:16 [cpn]
scribe+ cpn
23:40:37 [nigel]
.. 2. Encourage folk to work on a 2nd implementation of the features that have 1 passing implementation in the IR
23:41:11 [cpn]
Pierre: We have a blocker on implementation. Doing more work on the spec makes that worse
23:41:33 [cpn]
Nigel: Agree, we shouldn't be addressing issues with feature changes unless there's a path to implementation
23:41:49 [cpn]
... I expect this to be a small editing job, but the focus should be on implementation
23:42:03 [cpn]
Pierre: Happy to edit, but contingent on their being focus on implementation
23:43:11 [cpn]
... We need to have resources, people committing to implementation work
23:43:41 [cpn]
Nigel: I agree, otherwise it's a waste of time
23:44:33 [cpn]
... We all need to consider whether we have resource to commit. Let's come back to it in a month's time
23:45:01 [cpn]
... I won't do anything about adding you as editor, for the time being
23:45:26 [cpn]
Subtopic: TTML Media Type Definition and Profile
23:46:05 [cpn]
Nigel: This document is good. It's a Note, but since we published it, the Process now has a Registry document type
23:46:17 [cpn]
... Should we leave this as is, or formally make it a Registry?
23:46:29 [cpn]
... In general, I want to do as little as possible with it
23:47:03 [cpn]
... And, given we've done work to create a boilerplate for Registries, it might make sense to move this to the Registry track
23:47:23 [cpn]
... Atsushi, can we turn a Note into a Registry and keep the same shortname?
23:48:15 [cpn]
Atsushi: Some Registries are still published as draft Notes, It should be possible
23:48:29 [cpn]
... Need to check the procedure for publishing as a first draft
23:49:18 [cpn]
... Reusing the same shortname should be fine
23:49:44 [cpn]
Nigel: So I propose to do the work needed to turn this into a Registry Track document. No commitment to how soon, though
23:50:23 [cpn]
Cyril: We need an identifier for DAPT, so we'll need to update it. That could be a good incentive to do it, if we'd be blocked
23:50:37 [cpn]
Nigel: I don't think we would, it's more a hygeine issue
23:51:29 [nigel]
cpn: We've done this in Media WG, we have standalone Registries and Francois has done
23:51:34 [nigel]
.. the work to set up the auto publication
23:51:42 [nigel]
atsushi: Coding systems?
23:52:04 [nigel]
cpn: Yes, they were Notes and we moved them over - WebCodecs and MSE Bytestream Formats
23:52:51 [cpn]
Nigel: Anything else on the Profile Registry?
23:52:53 [cpn]
(nothing)
23:52:59 [cpn]
Subtopic: Joint meeting follow-ups
23:53:05 [cpn]
Nigel: We had 3 joint meetings this week
23:54:05 [cpn]
... Monday was MEIG, talked about DAPT, and there was interest in that. Wolfgang expressed interest in writing implementation to convert DAPT to next-generation audio
23:54:34 [cpn]
... We talked about adding text tracks to MSE. MSE supports audio and video, not subtitles and captions
23:55:02 [cpn]
... There was no negative reaction, some support. We then took it to Media WG on Thursday, and it was more positive
23:55:28 [cpn]
... I filed an issue to add it. There were technical questions raised, to be answered.
23:55:39 [cpn]
... Things like switching the number of tracks available when you go to an advert
23:56:04 [cpn]
... There's currently a requirement to have the same number of tracks, but a different set of text tracks might be available
23:56:21 [cpn]
... Today we had joint meeting with APA WG. That was generally positive as well
23:57:08 [cpn]
Gary: Something mentioned in APA was symbolics, could result in text track additions
23:57:45 [cpn]
Nigel: Relates to not being able to have markup in text content in TTML
23:58:23 [cpn]
... Media Session only supports a plain text chapter title, no markup. So no way to embed left-to-right. It's a more general problem
23:59:06 [cpn]
Gary: WIth Media Session, would we want it to start using the chapters kind?
23:59:25 [cpn]
... We'd want to make sure the caption formats can add the symbolics information
23:59:42 [cpn]
q+
00:00:37 [cpn]
Chris: Does getting symbolics into Unicode become a requirement?
00:01:05 [cpn]
Nigel: There may not be agreement that it belongs in Unicode
00:01:06 [cpn]
ack c
00:01:35 [cpn]
Subtopic: Conclusion
00:01:51 [cpn]
s/Subtopic/Topic/
00:02:11 [cpn]
Nigel: Thank you all for your contributions. We covered all the agenda, success!
00:02:38 [cpn]
... We meet next on Thursday 10 Otober
00:02:43 [cpn]
[adjourned]
00:02:51 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
00:02:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-minutes.html nigel
00:03:04 [nigel]
s/Otober/October
00:24:25 [nigel]
scribe+ nigel
00:24:54 [nigel]
i/pal: if all we need/scribe+ nigel
00:24:57 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
00:24:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-minutes.html nigel
00:32:18 [nigel]
present+ Nigel, Gary, Cyril, Pierre, Atsushi
00:32:51 [nigel]
present+ James_Craig, Dana, Surya_Sunkavelli, Jer_Noble
00:33:40 [nigel]
present+ Eric_Carlson
00:35:20 [nigel]
s/folloinwg/following/g
00:35:46 [nigel]
s/to decive what to/to decide what to
00:39:03 [nigel]
s/there's things in ttml that can't be done in webvtt/there's things used in practice in ttml that can't be done in webvtt
00:41:15 [nigel]
s/preferatnce/preference/g
00:43:07 [nigel]
s/get dapt into CR/get DAPT into CR
00:43:28 [nigel]
s/ dapt / DAPT /g
00:44:03 [nigel]
s/constrait/constraint
00:44:47 [nigel]
i/cyril: Reverse question/scribe+ nigel
00:45:00 [nigel]
s/embdedding/embedding
00:45:23 [nigel]
s/in my mind, this is really/.. in my mind, this is really
00:46:02 [nigel]
i/Atsushi: Issue about the out of date/Subtopic: TTML2 CR snapshot outdated banner
00:46:32 [nigel]
s/hygeine/hygiene/g
00:46:47 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
00:46:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-minutes.html nigel
00:48:53 [nigel]
s/not like 20 years ago/not like 20 years ago so can no longer claim that use of captions implies disability or vulnerability
00:49:13 [nigel]
s/improovement/improvement
00:49:17 [nigel]
s/horming/harming
00:49:26 [nigel]
s/your harming/you're harming
00:49:47 [nigel]
s/not site customizations/not user customisations
00:50:06 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
00:50:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-minutes.html nigel
00:51:42 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
00:51:46 [nigel]
zakim, end meeting
00:51:46 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Bernd, sideshowbarker, Dana, Jean-Yves_Avenard, Chris_Needham, Nigel, Gary, Cyril, Pierre, Atsushi, James_Craig, Surya_Sunkavelli,
00:51:49 [Zakim]
... Jer_Noble, Eric_Carlson
00:51:49 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
00:51:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-tt-minutes.html Zakim
00:51:56 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
00:51:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
00:52:39 [nigel]
rrsagent, excuse us
00:52:39 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items