IRC log of web-on-the-moon on 2024-09-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:05 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-on-the-moon-irc
14:55:09 [tpac-breakout-bot]
RRSAgent, do not leave
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Meeting: Web on the Moon
14:55:11 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Chair: Jay Kishigami
14:55:11 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/52
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14:55:12 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Zakim, clear agenda
14:55:12 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:55:12 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
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agendum 1 added
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Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
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agendum 2 added
14:55:14 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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agendum 3 added
14:55:15 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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agendum 4 added
14:55:15 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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agendum 5 added
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present+ Gregg_Kellogg
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present+
21:46:25 [anssik]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
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21:46:43 [niklas]
preset
21:46:47 [niklas]
present+
21:46:53 [moonira]
present+
21:47:09 [eemeli]
present+
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21:47:44 [kota]
slides anywhere?
21:48:19 [kaz]
scribenick: kaz
21:48:49 [kaz]
jay: (gives some chat about Mr. Kaneko, who gave the original story at AC 2024 in Hiroshima)
21:48:56 [kaz]
... (then goes through the slides)
21:49:06 [kaz]
... [slide 1]
21:49:22 [kaz]
... commercialization in space 2020-
21:50:07 [kaz]
.. astronauts can enjoy contents at ISS
21:50:20 [kaz]
... but some plan going to the moon
21:50:21 [kaz]
... [slide 2]
21:50:41 [kaz]
... the human sphere continues to the moon
21:50:45 [kaz]
... [slide 3]
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21:50:56 [kaz]
... artemis: landing humans on the moon
21:51:05 [kaz]
... [slide 4]
21:51:20 [kaz]
... (video by NASA on Artemis)
21:51:29 [kaz]
... training for the Artemis project
21:51:51 [kaz]
... human beings will go to the moon (again) soon
21:52:19 [kaz]
... very special vehicles are under development
21:52:31 [kaz]
.. [slide 5]
21:52:51 [kaz]
.. Artemis watching the south pole of the moon
21:53:07 [kaz]
... searching for water
21:53:09 [kaz]
... [slide 6]
21:53:20 [kaz]
... japanese SLIM - the "moon sniper"
21:53:26 [kaz]
... landed Jan. 2024
21:53:31 [kaz]
... [slide 7]
21:53:38 [kaz]
... US and India to the lunar surface
21:53:46 [kaz]
... [slide 8]
21:53:53 [kaz]
... Future assets envisioned
21:54:12 [kaz]
... developed by each company
21:54:18 [kaz]
... [slide 9]
21:54:27 [kaz]
... Lunar communications play a vital role
21:54:39 [kaz]
... the distance between the earth and the moon
21:54:57 [kaz]
... takes 2.6 sec even with the light
21:55:11 [kaz]
... [slide 10]
21:55:28 [kaz]
... Development of the lunar comm infrastructure, late 2020s-
21:55:38 [kaz]
... NASA's LunaNet
21:56:00 [kaz]
... need delay-tolerant network
21:56:13 [kaz]
... what would happen with the Web
21:56:27 [kaz]
... [slide 11]
21:56:33 [kaz]
... Global interest in LunaNet
21:56:45 [kaz]
... (various companies listed)
21:56:49 [kaz]
... [slide 12]
21:56:58 [kaz]
... Industry's plans
21:57:07 [kaz]
... JP companies including KDDI, etc.
21:57:12 [kaz]
... [slide 13]
21:57:21 [kaz]
... JAXA' efforts
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21:57:47 [kaz]
... assessmen on Lnar communication and navigation architecture and research on optical @@@
21:57:52 [kaz]
... [slide 13]
21:57:55 [kaz]
s/13/14/
21:58:05 [kaz]
... The solar system internet (SSI)
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... toward a "common structure"
21:58:25 [kaz]
... [slide 15]
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21:58:40 [shiestyle]
present+
21:58:42 [kaz]
... Analogy with the Internet development
21:58:49 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura
21:58:53 [ioana]
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21:58:59 [kaz]
... (picture of Vint Cerf)
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... [slide 16]
21:59:09 [kaz]
... Deep space challenges
21:59:20 [kaz]
... have to work other SDOs
21:59:34 [kaz]
... astronomical distance and planetary motion
21:59:42 [kaz]
... thinking about Mars as well
21:59:49 [kaz]
... but it's too far from the earth
21:59:58 [kaz]
... 40-min round trip
22:00:09 [kaz]
... [slide 17]
22:00:18 [kaz]
... another "internet"?
22:00:34 [kaz]
... Earth Internet vs Moon "internet"?
22:00:45 [kaz]
... [slide 18]
22:01:06 [kaz]
... how to handle the 2.6 sec delay?
22:01:20 [naomi]
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22:01:25 [kaz]
... connected with the Earth Internet?
22:01:29 [kaz]
... [slide 19]
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... New standrds and governance challenges
22:02:04 [kaz]
...universal standards for lunar time and solar system coordinates
22:02:10 [kaz]
... [slide 20]
22:02:21 [kaz]
... Our common future to work toward
22:02:41 [kaz]
... "space"as the next frontier
22:02:50 [kaz]
... [slide 21]
22:02:54 [kaz]
... Another video
22:03:09 [kaz]
... near-earth satellites
22:03:14 [kaz]
... NASA's DSM
22:03:20 [kaz]
... moon network
22:03:32 [kaz]
... 2030, may be assets with Mars
22:03:39 [kaz]
.... will take 40 mins
22:03:48 [kaz]
....inter-planet networ
22:03:51 [kaz]
s/wor/work/
22:04:00 [kaz]
... multi-hop connection
22:04:08 [kaz]
... then even earth to neptune
22:04:21 [kaz]
... for the universe also
22:04:38 [kaz]
... (IPNSG logo)
22:04:43 [kaz]
... [slide 22]
22:04:50 [kaz]
... Web on the Moon
22:04:59 [kaz]
... already used 20 mins
22:05:03 [naomi]
rrsagent, draft minutes
22:05:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-on-the-moon-minutes.html naomi
22:05:13 [anatoly-scherbakov]
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22:05:24 [anatoly-scherbakov]
present+
22:05:24 [kaz]
... (describes the goal and description of this session)
22:05:33 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/52 session proposal
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22:06:05 [kaz]
jay: referring to DTN, RRC4838
22:06:28 [kaz]
i/describe/... [slide 23]/
22:06:33 [garykac]
DTN = Delay Tolerant Network
22:06:38 [kaz]
... [slide 24]
22:06:54 [kaz]
... RFC 4838 - Delay-Tolerant Networking Architecture
22:06:55 [garykac]
present+
22:07:10 [kaz]
... why needed?
22:07:34 [kaz]
... end-to-end path between the source and the destination
22:08:04 [kaz]
... retransmissions based on timely/stable feedback
22:08:21 [kaz]
... end-to-end loss relatively small
22:08:32 [kaz]
... etc.
22:08:55 [garykac]
q+
22:08:55 [kaz]
... from now on, would like to have discussion with you all
22:08:59 [eemeli]
q+
22:09:01 [kaz]
q?
22:09:03 [naomi]
present+ Kiyoto_Ozawa, Daisuke_Kodajima, Lu_Huang, Michiko_Kuriyama, Mike_Wasserman, Satoru_Takagi, Takahiro_Aritaki, Kota_Yatagai, Ana_Sollano_Kim, Akira_Nagaoki, Anatoly_Scherbakov, Atsushi_Tagami, Daihei_Shiohama, Frankie_Wolf, Jayadevi_Natarajan, Osamu_Nakamura, Ryoya_Kawai, Ivan
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22:09:27 [kaz]
garykac: upgrade all our technology for this purpose?
22:09:29 [kaz]
jay: yes
22:09:33 [kaz]
... the problem is timing
22:09:49 [kaz]
... we can't upgrade everything at once
22:09:53 [kaz]
... so gradually
22:09:55 [kaz]
ack g
22:10:07 [naomi]
present+ Gary_Kacmarcik, Eemeli_Aro
22:10:38 [kaz]
eemeli: IPv4 solved problems for the Earth
22:10:49 [kaz]
... much more problems for the Moon
22:10:58 [satakagi]
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22:11:03 [kaz]
... we should be starting with addressing
22:11:07 [naomi]
rrsagent, draft minutes
22:11:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-on-the-moon-minutes.html naomi
22:11:14 [kaz]
... including lunar colony, and other colonies
22:11:38 [kaz]
... if we wait before starting, would get even more problems
22:11:48 [ntim]
present+
22:12:01 [kaz]
jay: region codes too
22:12:08 [kaz]
q?
22:12:10 [kaz]
ack e
22:12:21 [kaz]
@@@: laser-based communication?
22:12:23 [kaz]
jay: yes
22:13:12 [kaz]
garyk: latency due to remote access
22:13:15 [cbiesinger]
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22:13:20 [rwarren2]
What are roaming fees going to be on the moon?
22:13:29 [kaz]
... geolocation on the Moon
22:13:36 [kaz]
.... video codecs
22:13:58 [kaz]
jay: can't avoid the 2.6 sec delay itself
22:14:10 [kaz]
... each protocol should handle the delay
22:14:24 [kaz]
... possibly timeout would happen
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22:14:32 [kaz]
... have to check all the existing protocols
22:14:38 [kaz]
... that would be the first step
22:14:49 [naomi]
s/@@@/garyk/
22:15:19 [kaz]
garyk: simpler thing would be based on the existing technologies
22:15:37 [kaz]
jay: at least as the first 2-3 years, we have to upgrade the software
22:15:50 [kaz]
... and its protocols
22:16:11 [kaz]
... some system using reasonable upgrade is expected
22:16:11 [satakagi]
As technology areas specific to the WWW, CDN and browser edge computing seem interesting.
22:16:24 [kaz]
q?
22:16:52 [kaz]
@@1: something mirrored locally
22:17:11 [kaz]
... need whole new system to avoid collisions
22:17:15 [naomi]
s/@@1/Bas/
22:17:24 [kaz]
jay: that's true
22:17:39 [kaz]
... maybe we have to think of some reasonable timing
22:17:54 [ntim]
ntim has changed the topic to: Breakout: Web on the Moon - Palos Verdes - 14:45-15:45, Minutes: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-on-the-moon-minutes.html
22:18:02 [kaz]
... to handle that kind of collisions
22:18:19 [garykac]
My earlier question was why not use existing remote access protocols to address this communication problem.
22:18:22 [kaz]
@@2: intermediate cash?
22:18:22 [garykac]
That would require a single channel of communication between Moon and Earth, with a video feed from Earth.
22:18:23 [garykac]
Video codes are already designed to handle dropped frames in the face of long latency.
22:18:45 [kaz]
@@@ will move that to the original place later
22:19:11 [kaz]
jay: just an idea in mind at the moment
22:19:29 [kaz]
... if we have 2.6 sec delay, communication with each other would be difficult
22:19:48 [kaz]
... to handle that situation, we're now planning some scalable network
22:20:07 [kaz]
... using such a network, we can emulate the situation with the Moon
22:20:30 [kaz]
... at an exhibition in Japan, named Interop
22:20:41 [kota]
q+
22:20:51 [kaz]
osamu: would provide some testbed for that purpose
22:21:15 [kaz]
... also thinking an email system as well
22:21:41 [kaz]
... recently IETF discusses bundled network
22:21:54 [kaz]
... may be used for the communication with the Moon
22:22:10 [kaz]
... IP network may be still used
22:22:40 [kaz]
... but the network protocol might not be symmetry
22:23:04 [kaz]
... some of the CDN protocol might be able to be reused
22:23:33 [kaz]
jay: next year, based on the discussion, we'd like to try a test network with big delay
22:23:50 [kaz]
david: regarding UUCP comment
22:24:07 [kaz]
... really long delay with long-distance call
22:24:23 [kaz]
... long-distance connection to be handled
22:24:39 [kaz]
... certainly, local cash would work
22:24:56 [kaz]
... NTP also would be useful
22:25:21 [kaz]
... how to synchronize the time between the Earth and he Moon
22:25:45 [kaz]
@@2: there is a precedents
22:25:51 [kaz]
s/a //
22:25:56 [kaz]
s/is/are/
22:26:08 [anatoly-scherbakov]
q+
22:26:14 [kaz]
jay: any questions from remote participants?
22:26:20 [kaz]
q?
22:26:31 [kaz]
kota: we're working on QUIC
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22:26:38 [ntim]
ack kota
22:26:45 [kaz]
... conjection control
22:26:55 [kaz]
... kind of simulating space situation
22:27:07 [kaz]
... might be able to use QUIC for the connection
22:27:25 [kaz]
... the IP layer would be usable based on that
22:27:30 [kaz]
jay: ok
22:27:42 [kaz]
... QUICK and DTN are good recent progress
22:27:59 [kaz]
anatoly: interesting presentation
22:28:14 [kaz]
... synchronizing with the Moon and the Mars
22:28:26 [kaz]
... probably will be independent
22:28:28 [naomi]
ack ana
22:28:48 [kaz]
... some work on inter-planetary file systems
22:28:54 [kaz]
... might be of interest
22:29:15 [kaz]
... every piece has unique cache
22:29:23 [kaz]
s/cash/cache/g
22:29:34 [kaz]
... synchronize the data set between the Earth and the Moon
22:30:15 [kaz]
... maybe interesting to keep the same contents on the both sides
22:30:26 [kaz]
... the idea like remote desktop
22:31:14 [kaz]
... the most effective way may be sending magnetic tapes
22:31:55 [kaz]
... might happen more realistic way is text-based browser
22:32:07 [kaz]
jay: very much interesting
22:32:20 [kaz]
... IPFS is an interesting topic
22:32:20 [anatoly-scherbakov]
ack anatoly-scherbakov
22:32:37 [kaz]
... good for inter-space network
22:32:48 [kaz]
... any other questions?
22:33:05 [kaz]
@@2: for file system use case
22:33:20 [kaz]
... there is a team started fetch api
22:33:35 [kaz]
... can send data in a modular manner
22:33:37 [satakagi]
q+
22:33:39 [satakagi]
I thought it would be interesting to dig deeper into what challenges CDNs have as caching mechanisms for the WWW that are realistically operating now.
22:33:56 [kaz]
q?
22:34:33 [satakagi]
speak irc post
22:35:18 [naomi]
ack sat
22:35:28 [kaz]
jay: no answer at the moment
22:35:45 [ntim]
q+
22:35:49 [eemeli]
q+
22:36:06 [kaz]
... some kind of coordination and costomerziation needed
22:36:13 [kaz]
s/cost/cust/
22:36:37 [kaz]
... this is not just tech approach but related to human acceptance
22:36:54 [kaz]
q?
22:36:56 [satakagi]
Thanks
22:37:21 [kaz]
ntim: user experience with latency
22:37:28 [naomi]
ack ntim
22:37:38 [kaz]
... latency for seconds
22:37:47 [kaz]
... animations will be broken
22:38:05 [kaz]
... any plan about the design?
22:38:34 [kaz]
jay: we have to think of what kind of applications to be customized
22:38:50 [kaz]
... email or ftp
22:39:06 [kaz]
... one possible solution is caching
22:39:20 [kaz]
... but need to ask the Earth and it takes time
22:39:44 [naomi]
q?
22:39:45 [kaz]
ntim: 2.6-sec would make the content different
22:40:03 [kaz]
eemeli: is that reasonable to expect resouces?
22:40:26 [naomi]
ack ee
22:40:44 [kaz]
... with inter-planetary distance, the situation becomes more and more complicated
22:40:59 [kaz]
... somebody else would get cached data
22:41:20 [kaz]
... possible problem with privacy
22:42:06 [kaz]
blad: may need text-based browser
22:42:18 [kaz]
... do we know about the bandwidgh?
22:42:28 [kaz]
s/widgh/width/
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22:42:40 [kaz]
jay: don't know...
22:43:02 [eemeli]
q+
22:43:06 [kaz]
blad: how many lasers could be used?
22:43:25 [kaz]
@@1: multiple lasers would provide wider connection
22:43:53 [kaz]
jay: btw, has everybody signed up on the attendees list?
22:44:43 [kaz]
(those who have not signed up are encouraged to sign up)
22:44:52 [kaz]
jay: please give email to me
22:45:11 [kaz]
... jay@w3.org
22:45:56 [kaz]
[adjourned]
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22:46:00 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
22:46:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-on-the-moon-minutes.html kaz
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