IRC log of views on 2024-09-25
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-views-irc
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- RRSAgent, do not leave
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- Meeting: Defining views
- 14:54:30 [tpac-breakout-bot]
- Chair: Jan Jaap de Groot
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- Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/46
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- Zakim, clear agenda
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- agenda cleared
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- Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
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- agendum 1 added
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- Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
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- agendum 2 added
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- Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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- Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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- Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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- agendum 5 added
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- 17:48:50 [JJ5]
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- agenda?
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- rrsagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-views-minutes.html JJ5
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- present+
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- 18:16:10 [sabidussi_marco]
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- 18:17:13 [bruce_bailey]
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- present+
- 18:18:01 [sabidussi_marco]
- present+
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- 18:18:09 [kevin]
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- present+
- 18:18:18 [kevin]
- present+
- 18:19:57 [alastairc]
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- 18:20:52 [hdv]
- scribenick: hdv
- 18:21:01 [alastairc]
- present+
- 18:21:03 [hdv]
- JJ: today's session is about defining views
- 18:21:21 [alastairc]
- slides: https://janjaap.com/tpac2024/
- 18:21:21 [hdv]
- JJ: the slides are on https://janjaap.com/tpac2024
- 18:22:46 [jeroen]
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- 18:23:13 [hdv]
- [introductions]
- 18:23:36 [hdv]
- JJ: we'll start with current definitions in the guidelines
- 18:24:09 [hdv]
- JJ: a web page, in WCAG 2.2 is a “A non-embedded resource obtained from a single URI using HTTP plus any other resources that are used in the rendering or intended to be rendered together with it by a user agent. Web page in WCAG 2.2 ”
- 18:24:28 [hdv]
- JJ: in WCAG 3, it's “Views include all content visually and programmatically available without a substantive change. Conceptually, views correspond to the definition of a web page as used in WCAG 2, but are not restricted to content meeting that definition. For example, a view could be considered a “screen” in a mobile app or a layer of web content – such as a modal. ”
- 18:25:07 [hdv]
- JJ: then in WCAG2ICT, there is also a definition that applies to non-web context
- 18:26:22 [hdv]
- JJ: the equivalent unit of conformance for non web content is a single document, so set of web pages would be a set of documents, but then a piece of non-web software into pieces isn't possible, so 'web page'. becomes 'software program' and 'set of web paegs' becomes 'set of software programs'
- 18:26:40 [kirkwood]
- present+
- 18:26:42 [hdv]
- JJ: in this session I want to see if we can get closer to carving up software into screens or views
- 18:26:50 [hdv]
- JJ: that would allow us to have a set of screens
- 18:27:10 [hdv]
- s/have a set of screens/speak of 'set of screens'
- 18:27:19 [hdv]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes please
- 18:27:20 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-views-minutes.html hdv
- 18:27:44 [hdv]
- JJ: in WCAG2ICT, there are a number of notes under the 'set of software program' heading
- 18:28:02 [hdv]
- JJ: first note says 'set of software programs' is rare
- 18:29:01 [hdv]
- JJ: because there is many notes and exceptions, in my view we'd almost never speak of a set of software programs
- 18:29:33 [hdv]
- JJ: in software like the office suite, that comprises of Word, Excel etc, would that be set software programs? in my opinion it would not
- 18:29:40 [hdv]
- q+ to ask about office suite
- 18:29:53 [hdv]
- JJ: our group looked at how we would we apply those to mobile?
- 18:29:58 [hdv]
- s/mobile?/mobile
- 18:30:23 [hdv]
- JJ: in our group we wanted to think in terms of 'set of screens' for an app
- 18:31:15 [hdv]
- JJ: there are different kinds of views in Android and iOS
- 18:31:35 [hdv]
- JJ: screens can go onto or be popped off the stack
- 18:31:59 [kevin]
- q?
- 18:32:13 [hdv]
- JJ: in a website there is usually a homepage, with sub pages and sub pages underneath, so there is hierarchy
- 18:32:28 [hdv]
- JJ: on an app, there are activities
- 18:32:36 [kevin]
- q+ Chuck
- 18:33:16 [hdv]
- JJ: so my main question is: how should we define views? and define parts of the screen like we devide parts of web sites?
- 18:33:16 [hdv]
- ack me
- 18:33:16 [Zakim]
- hdv, you wanted to ask about office suite
- 18:33:17 [kevin]
- ack hdv
- 18:33:22 [kevin]
- scribe+
- 18:33:35 [kevin]
- hdv: Just about the Office suite, that is not a set of programs?
- 18:34:02 [kevin]
- JJ: As far as I understand because it is not able to switch between them such as opening an Excel file in Word
- 18:34:08 [kevin]
- hdv: Other examples?
- 18:34:24 [kevin]
- JJ: I have not seen a real world example of a set of software that would meet this
- 18:34:33 [kevin]
- hdv: Do we know where this came from?
- 18:34:41 [kevin]
- JJ: Not sure
- 18:34:51 [alastairc]
- q+ to ask about using a concept similar to an starting point (UIcontroller, webpage etc). For example, a view is "a set of features that are all available from the same starting point, without transitioning to a completely new context."
- 18:35:23 [kevin]
- ... Some things are slightly different in software. It is odd to me that there is no real world example
- 18:35:31 [kevin]
- ack chu
- 18:35:37 [kevin]
- scribe-
- 18:35:44 [hdv]
- chuck: I have limited knowledge of the institutional history of WCAG2ICT
- 18:36:07 [hdv]
- chuck: I believe in the current group the definition was heavily influenced by what's in the original note
- 18:36:49 [hdv]
- chuck: the charter didn't give us a lot of space to change a lot of the existing stuff in WCAG2ICT and focused mostly on embedding the new success criteria
- 18:37:23 [kevin]
- q?
- 18:37:41 [hdv]
- JJ: on GitHub it seems people mostly agreed on wanting to change to set of views rather than sets of software, but it would be hard to define views in a way that works in non-web contexts
- 18:37:42 [kevin]
- ack alastairc
- 18:37:42 [Zakim]
- alastairc, you wanted to ask about using a concept similar to an starting point (UIcontroller, webpage etc). For example, a view is "a set of features that are all available from
- 18:37:46 [Zakim]
- ... the same starting point, without transitioning to a completely new context."
- 18:37:57 [hdv]
- alastairc: this is an important one to get a definition of
- 18:38:04 [hdv]
- alastairc: as it is widely used
- 18:38:18 [kirkwood]
- +1 to alastair regarding importance / need
- 18:38:45 [hdv]
- alastairc: inspired by the diagrams you showed, I wondered if we used something as a starting point, could we define a view something like 'set of views that start from the same starting point'
- 18:39:18 [hdv]
- alastairc: what I've always found difficult with web page definition and related things, whenever you get modal dialogs or bottom sheets on mobile, you get things that appear over the top, but you're still in the same context
- 18:39:35 [hdv]
- JJ: I think tree view would help to show hierarchy
- 18:39:53 [kevin]
- q?
- 18:40:06 [hdv]
- JJ: on Android/iOS a popup still shows in the same window
- 18:40:13 [hdv]
- JJ: and also traps focus
- 18:40:35 [hdv]
- JJ: and similar to how desktop software would work when you show an alert of bottom sheet
- 18:40:54 [alastairc]
- q+
- 18:41:06 [hdv]
- JJ: when is something considered a view vs when is a substantial change? eg when you go to next view, that's quite clear but defining it is hard
- 18:41:14 [kevin]
- ack alastairc
- 18:41:27 [kirkwood]
- +1 to substantive change a design document incorporates it.
- 18:41:38 [hdv]
- alastairc: a way to find out what's in scope and what's out when you're creating a definition, is to gather examples
- 18:42:03 [hdv]
- alastairc: find the obvious examples of what's in and out of scope, and then find as many niche in between cases that you can
- 18:42:44 [hdv]
- JJ: was thinking, if you would move between views you can usually use a back button to go back, that might be part of the definition we're looking for
- 18:42:46 [kevin]
- q+
- 18:42:51 [kevin]
- ack kevin
- 18:43:02 [kirkwood]
- UX documentation often has language regarding this
- 18:43:21 [Francis_Storr]
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- 18:43:30 [hdv]
- kevin: I'm not sure if you're looking for a definition that is programmatical… from an assessment point of view you might not know what is underlying… maybe this highly depends on context?
- 18:43:36 [hdv]
- JJ: agreed
- 18:43:54 [alastairc]
- q+ on process vs views
- 18:43:55 [hdv]
- JJ: maybe there is something there like a going back/forward mechanism
- 18:44:10 [kevin]
- q+ chuck
- 18:44:21 [kevin]
- ack alastairc
- 18:44:21 [Zakim]
- alastairc, you wanted to comment on process vs views
- 18:44:47 [hdv]
- alastairc: in terms of forward and back… is one useful indicator… in WCAG 3, we've got to 4 levels: component, view, task flow / process and product
- 18:44:56 [hdv]
- alastairc: they are used in scoping and conformance and so forth
- 18:45:08 [kevin]
- q- chuck
- 18:45:15 [hdv]
- alastairc: not sure how widely applicable forward/back is across different technologies, eg thinking epub and WebVR… it's an indicator but not the whole thing
- 18:45:51 [hdv]
- kevin: re forward/back, is good as a baseline if we find and define the edge cases around that
- 18:46:01 [alastairc]
- What if you go to a new context but there isn't (intentionally) a back?
- 18:46:29 [hdv]
- JJ: in my experience, auditing an app, I only have processes, almost no screens in an app or software are standalone
- 18:46:40 [hdv]
- q+
- 18:46:54 [hdv]
- JJ: would be interesting to explore some edge cases
- 18:47:03 [kevin]
- ack hdv
- 18:47:13 [alastairc]
- scribe+
- 18:47:19 [kevin]
- hdv: Just thinking that when you follow WCAG-EM you gather pages for a sample
- 18:47:26 [alastairc]
- scribe-
- 18:47:31 [kevin]
- ... If I think about gathering views, I wonder how much there is in the view
- 18:47:43 [alastairc]
- q+ on tab bars
- 18:47:43 [kevin]
- ... Views in apps could be quite small steps
- 18:47:49 [kevin]
- +1 to the small steps
- 18:48:09 [kevin]
- ... I feel that there is something like how useful this is as a definition for an assessment
- 18:49:11 [dotproto]
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- 18:49:31 [kevin]
- hdv: If you were sampling apps would you be using this definition... eg, with WCAG EM
- 18:49:48 [hdv]
- kevin: wa thinking the same for a lot of apps, a single question could be a view and you'd have many similar ones
- 18:50:02 [hdv]
- chuck: re defining a view… does each view have its own title?
- 18:50:28 [hdv]
- JJ: not always… in apps we'd talk about a screen which has one or more screens… the top bar would have a title and actions
- 18:50:35 [hdv]
- JJ: and underneath there is a scrollable container
- 18:50:57 [hdv]
- JJ: so usually on a screen you would have a title, but not always
- 18:51:56 [hdv]
- kevin: we spoke a few months ago about updating WCAG-EM, would we look at using this new definition to inform an update of WCAG-EM?
- 18:52:02 [hdv]
- JJ: maybe like WCAGICT-EM
- 18:52:05 [kevin]
- q?
- 18:52:20 [kevin]
- ack alastairc
- 18:52:20 [Zakim]
- alastairc, you wanted to comment on tab bars
- 18:52:54 [hdv]
- alastairc: going back to that JJ mentioned most apps are like a back/forward process… a lot of apps have a tab view whicih is kind of like a starting point, like a tab bar at the bottom, each starts its own set of features/functionality, whicih would be the basis for revieq
- 18:53:00 [hdv]
- s/revieq/review
- 18:53:09 [kirkwood]
- we used to call them simply layouts… later called them [UX) Layouts. this is based in print though
- 18:53:26 [Rachael]
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- 18:53:41 [hdv]
- alastairc: I mentioned gathering examples… one place where I saw a good way of visualising it, designers create big flows in Figma, I couldn't supply one of my client's ones, but if we had a set of those, you could almost start drawing which chunks constitute a view
- 18:53:50 [hdv]
- alastairc: that might help as an exercise
- 18:54:01 [kirkwood]
- q+
- 18:54:37 [kevin]
- ack kirkwood
- 18:55:25 [hdv]
- kirkwood: I think of what we always used to use… the old terminology, we're still using, layout as in print pages… when the layout changed and there was a significant change in the layout then that woulld be something to be approved by the design team
- 18:55:43 [hdv]
- kirkwood: that might give us some structure
- 18:55:53 [Francis_Storr]
- q+
- 18:56:14 [kevin]
- ack Francis_Storr
- 18:56:31 [sabidussi_marco]
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- 18:56:57 [hdv]
- Francis_Storr: similar line to kirkwood… there is many things that can change on a page, so coming up with a definition of a view and then defining what other things are, eg states on a page… eg WCAG 3 talks about states and layers
- 18:57:07 [hdv]
- Francis_Storr: or a different tab in a tab panel, are they different states in the view
- 18:57:15 [alastairc]
- q+ on the continuum
- 18:57:18 [hdv]
- Francis_Storr: views are important, but what do we call those other things?
- 18:57:33 [hdv]
- q+
- 18:58:36 [hdv]
- JJ: feel the same logic would apply, eg if you restore state does that also update url fragment?
- 18:59:09 [hdv]
- s/, eg if you restore state does that also update url fragment?//
- 18:59:12 [hdv]
- Francis_Storr: eg if you restore state does that also update url fragment?
- 18:59:22 [hdv]
- JJ: if I'd navigate between a tab I would represent it in the URL
- 19:00:34 [Francis_Storr]
- https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#dfn-views
- 19:00:39 [hdv]
- alastairc: we're in that horrible position to define a line on a continuum, if you have a screen open and you have a dropdown, that's not a new view… but if you open a small popover to add an image in a document, that's prob not a new context, but a modal, is that a new view (seems like in WCAG 3 that would be a new view)
- 19:01:05 [hdv]
- alastairc: there are also horrible sites that are a bit like a carousel but each arrow takes you to a new page… could be one page or multiple
- 19:01:10 [kirkwood]
- this is a very, very significant concept! from the COGA accessibility is the change in ‘view’ causing the loss of context and getting back to view and with it is ‘unfamiliar’ and thus losing orientation.
- 19:01:12 [hdv]
- alastairc: we're trying to define a point on a continuum
- 19:01:31 [hdv]
- JJ: existenceo of a back button would help
- 19:01:31 [hdv]
- ack alastairc
- 19:01:31 [Zakim]
- alastairc, you wanted to comment on the continuum
- 19:01:31 [Rachael]
- q+
- 19:01:45 [hdv]
- JJ: one issue on a modal you would be able to go back
- 19:02:43 [alastairc]
- Use of "view": Scoping the (or a) unit of conformance in WCAG 3
- 19:03:18 [alastairc]
- ack hdv
- 19:03:21 [alastairc]
- ack Rachael
- 19:03:28 [hdv]
- hdv: maybe what we need to define or leave undefined can be informed by where it is used, eg views might need to be used for WCAG-EM, other terms may not be used testing any criteria so we cna leave them undefined
- 19:03:55 [kirkwood]
- q+
- 19:03:57 [hdv]
- Rachael: what about content that is repetitive but not on the same page eg in tabs?
- 19:04:08 [alastairc]
- q+ to answer hdv's question
- 19:04:08 [hdv]
- ack kirk
- 19:04:22 [hdv]
- kirkwood: this is just an important concept from the COGA perspective
- 19:04:33 [dotproto]
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- 19:04:53 [hdv]
- kirkwood: the aspect of changing view and getting lost in a view, not understanding how to go back… it's something we're trying to get our arms around with defining a lot of things that you're talking about too
- 19:05:27 [hdv]
- kirkwood: maybe some of these things can be collaborated on with the COGA TF as some of these things can really break a11y for visual orientation and memory purposes
- 19:05:38 [hdv]
- JJ: would be great to collaborate and see previous work
- 19:05:43 [hdv]
- q?
- 19:05:50 [hdv]
- ack al
- 19:05:50 [Zakim]
- alastairc, you wanted to answer hdv's question
- 19:05:50 [alastairc]
- ack alastairc
- 19:06:08 [hdv]
- alastairc: re Hidde's question: this is a unit of conformance for WCAG 3
- 19:06:18 [hdv]
- alastairc: trying to be more accomodating to modern web and non-web context
- 19:06:39 [hdv]
- alastairc: thinking about next steps… if we were doing a subgroup on a guideline we'd start a google doc and capturing screenshots and different examples
- 19:06:48 [hdv]
- alastairc: and use that to poke on proposed definition
- 19:06:58 [hdv]
- alastairc: is it worth doing that?
- 19:07:02 [hdv]
- JJ: good idea
- 19:07:26 [hdv]
- JJ: can get examples from apps, other non ICT and also web
- 19:07:30 [hdv]
- q+
- 19:07:38 [alastairc]
- scribe+
- 19:07:40 [hdv]
- chuck: +q
- 19:08:00 [alastairc]
- hdv: In the WCAG3 space, would that delay it going into WCAG-EM
- 19:08:08 [hdv]
- s/+q/+1
- 19:08:26 [hdv]
- JJ: we can probably take it back to WCAG2ICT? maybe
- 19:08:28 [hdv]
- q+ chuck
- 19:08:31 [hdv]
- ack chuck
- 19:08:31 [hdv]
- ack me
- 19:08:58 [hdv]
- chuck: chatted to Kevin re this, there are some things needing to be discussed, also non-technical things, we need to have some conversations first
- 19:09:18 [hdv]
- JJ: so would wonder if WCAG3 subgroup is the right forum
- 19:09:38 [hdv]
- alastairc: WCAG3 is very active, but WCAG2ICT is not as active
- 19:09:45 [hdv]
- JJ: but they are still going to work on AAA
- 19:10:03 [alastairc]
- s/WCAG2ICT is not as active/WCAG2ICT is in final stages of their publication.
- 19:10:50 [hdv]
- JJ: would be great if updating 'sets of views' could be part of their updates potentially
- 19:10:55 [hdv]
- alastairc: all of these TFs run under the AG banner anyway
- 19:11:00 [hdv]
- q?
- 19:11:50 [hdv]
- JJ: to summarise, we can explore back/forward, view changes, and maybe look at setting up a subgroup to try and research this definition
- 19:12:08 [hdv]
- JJ: to make a document to showcase these views across a wide range of things
- 19:12:28 [hdv]
- hdv: I'd be happy to help with that
- 19:13:23 [hdv]
- RRSAgent, make minutes please
- 19:13:25 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-views-minutes.html hdv
- 19:13:31 [Rachael]
- Thank you for a good conversation.
- 19:13:36 [hdv]
- Zakim, end meeting please
- 19:13:36 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been JJ, bruce_bailey, sabidussi_marco, hdv, kevin, alastairc, kirkwood
- 19:13:38 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 19:13:40 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-views-minutes.html Zakim
- 19:13:46 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, hdv; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 19:13:46 [hdv]
- present+ Jeroen
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- 20:39:40 [alastairc]
- There is a small note on right-to-repair in the CG's guidelines: https://w3c.github.io/sustyweb/#include-e-waste-right-to-repair-and-recycling-policies
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