IRC log of views on 2024-09-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-views-irc
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RRSAgent, do not leave
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Meeting: Defining views
14:54:30 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Chair: Jan Jaap de Groot
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Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/46
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Zakim, clear agenda
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agenda cleared
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Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
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agendum 1 added
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Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
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agendum 2 added
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Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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agendum 3 added
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Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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agendum 4 added
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Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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agendum 5 added
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agenda?
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-views-minutes.html JJ5
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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scribenick: hdv
18:21:01 [alastairc]
present+
18:21:03 [hdv]
JJ: today's session is about defining views
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slides: https://janjaap.com/tpac2024/
18:21:21 [hdv]
JJ: the slides are on https://janjaap.com/tpac2024
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18:23:13 [hdv]
[introductions]
18:23:36 [hdv]
JJ: we'll start with current definitions in the guidelines
18:24:09 [hdv]
JJ: a web page, in WCAG 2.2 is a “A non-embedded resource obtained from a single URI using HTTP plus any other resources that are used in the rendering or intended to be rendered together with it by a user agent. Web page in WCAG 2.2 ”
18:24:28 [hdv]
JJ: in WCAG 3, it's “Views include all content visually and programmatically available without a substantive change. Conceptually, views correspond to the definition of a web page as used in WCAG 2, but are not restricted to content meeting that definition. For example, a view could be considered a “screen” in a mobile app or a layer of web content – such as a modal. ”
18:25:07 [hdv]
JJ: then in WCAG2ICT, there is also a definition that applies to non-web context
18:26:22 [hdv]
JJ: the equivalent unit of conformance for non web content is a single document, so set of web pages would be a set of documents, but then a piece of non-web software into pieces isn't possible, so 'web page'. becomes 'software program' and 'set of web paegs' becomes 'set of software programs'
18:26:40 [kirkwood]
present+
18:26:42 [hdv]
JJ: in this session I want to see if we can get closer to carving up software into screens or views
18:26:50 [hdv]
JJ: that would allow us to have a set of screens
18:27:10 [hdv]
s/have a set of screens/speak of 'set of screens'
18:27:19 [hdv]
RRSAgent, draft minutes please
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-views-minutes.html hdv
18:27:44 [hdv]
JJ: in WCAG2ICT, there are a number of notes under the 'set of software program' heading
18:28:02 [hdv]
JJ: first note says 'set of software programs' is rare
18:29:01 [hdv]
JJ: because there is many notes and exceptions, in my view we'd almost never speak of a set of software programs
18:29:33 [hdv]
JJ: in software like the office suite, that comprises of Word, Excel etc, would that be set software programs? in my opinion it would not
18:29:40 [hdv]
q+ to ask about office suite
18:29:53 [hdv]
JJ: our group looked at how we would we apply those to mobile?
18:29:58 [hdv]
s/mobile?/mobile
18:30:23 [hdv]
JJ: in our group we wanted to think in terms of 'set of screens' for an app
18:31:15 [hdv]
JJ: there are different kinds of views in Android and iOS
18:31:35 [hdv]
JJ: screens can go onto or be popped off the stack
18:31:59 [kevin]
q?
18:32:13 [hdv]
JJ: in a website there is usually a homepage, with sub pages and sub pages underneath, so there is hierarchy
18:32:28 [hdv]
JJ: on an app, there are activities
18:32:36 [kevin]
q+ Chuck
18:33:16 [hdv]
JJ: so my main question is: how should we define views? and define parts of the screen like we devide parts of web sites?
18:33:16 [hdv]
ack me
18:33:16 [Zakim]
hdv, you wanted to ask about office suite
18:33:17 [kevin]
ack hdv
18:33:22 [kevin]
scribe+
18:33:35 [kevin]
hdv: Just about the Office suite, that is not a set of programs?
18:34:02 [kevin]
JJ: As far as I understand because it is not able to switch between them such as opening an Excel file in Word
18:34:08 [kevin]
hdv: Other examples?
18:34:24 [kevin]
JJ: I have not seen a real world example of a set of software that would meet this
18:34:33 [kevin]
hdv: Do we know where this came from?
18:34:41 [kevin]
JJ: Not sure
18:34:51 [alastairc]
q+ to ask about using a concept similar to an starting point (UIcontroller, webpage etc). For example, a view is "a set of features that are all available from the same starting point, without transitioning to a completely new context."
18:35:23 [kevin]
... Some things are slightly different in software. It is odd to me that there is no real world example
18:35:31 [kevin]
ack chu
18:35:37 [kevin]
scribe-
18:35:44 [hdv]
chuck: I have limited knowledge of the institutional history of WCAG2ICT
18:36:07 [hdv]
chuck: I believe in the current group the definition was heavily influenced by what's in the original note
18:36:49 [hdv]
chuck: the charter didn't give us a lot of space to change a lot of the existing stuff in WCAG2ICT and focused mostly on embedding the new success criteria
18:37:23 [kevin]
q?
18:37:41 [hdv]
JJ: on GitHub it seems people mostly agreed on wanting to change to set of views rather than sets of software, but it would be hard to define views in a way that works in non-web contexts
18:37:42 [kevin]
ack alastairc
18:37:42 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to ask about using a concept similar to an starting point (UIcontroller, webpage etc). For example, a view is "a set of features that are all available from
18:37:46 [Zakim]
... the same starting point, without transitioning to a completely new context."
18:37:57 [hdv]
alastairc: this is an important one to get a definition of
18:38:04 [hdv]
alastairc: as it is widely used
18:38:18 [kirkwood]
+1 to alastair regarding importance / need
18:38:45 [hdv]
alastairc: inspired by the diagrams you showed, I wondered if we used something as a starting point, could we define a view something like 'set of views that start from the same starting point'
18:39:18 [hdv]
alastairc: what I've always found difficult with web page definition and related things, whenever you get modal dialogs or bottom sheets on mobile, you get things that appear over the top, but you're still in the same context
18:39:35 [hdv]
JJ: I think tree view would help to show hierarchy
18:39:53 [kevin]
q?
18:40:06 [hdv]
JJ: on Android/iOS a popup still shows in the same window
18:40:13 [hdv]
JJ: and also traps focus
18:40:35 [hdv]
JJ: and similar to how desktop software would work when you show an alert of bottom sheet
18:40:54 [alastairc]
q+
18:41:06 [hdv]
JJ: when is something considered a view vs when is a substantial change? eg when you go to next view, that's quite clear but defining it is hard
18:41:14 [kevin]
ack alastairc
18:41:27 [kirkwood]
+1 to substantive change a design document incorporates it.
18:41:38 [hdv]
alastairc: a way to find out what's in scope and what's out when you're creating a definition, is to gather examples
18:42:03 [hdv]
alastairc: find the obvious examples of what's in and out of scope, and then find as many niche in between cases that you can
18:42:44 [hdv]
JJ: was thinking, if you would move between views you can usually use a back button to go back, that might be part of the definition we're looking for
18:42:46 [kevin]
q+
18:42:51 [kevin]
ack kevin
18:43:02 [kirkwood]
UX documentation often has language regarding this
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18:43:30 [hdv]
kevin: I'm not sure if you're looking for a definition that is programmatical… from an assessment point of view you might not know what is underlying… maybe this highly depends on context?
18:43:36 [hdv]
JJ: agreed
18:43:54 [alastairc]
q+ on process vs views
18:43:55 [hdv]
JJ: maybe there is something there like a going back/forward mechanism
18:44:10 [kevin]
q+ chuck
18:44:21 [kevin]
ack alastairc
18:44:21 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on process vs views
18:44:47 [hdv]
alastairc: in terms of forward and back… is one useful indicator… in WCAG 3, we've got to 4 levels: component, view, task flow / process and product
18:44:56 [hdv]
alastairc: they are used in scoping and conformance and so forth
18:45:08 [kevin]
q- chuck
18:45:15 [hdv]
alastairc: not sure how widely applicable forward/back is across different technologies, eg thinking epub and WebVR… it's an indicator but not the whole thing
18:45:51 [hdv]
kevin: re forward/back, is good as a baseline if we find and define the edge cases around that
18:46:01 [alastairc]
What if you go to a new context but there isn't (intentionally) a back?
18:46:29 [hdv]
JJ: in my experience, auditing an app, I only have processes, almost no screens in an app or software are standalone
18:46:40 [hdv]
q+
18:46:54 [hdv]
JJ: would be interesting to explore some edge cases
18:47:03 [kevin]
ack hdv
18:47:13 [alastairc]
scribe+
18:47:19 [kevin]
hdv: Just thinking that when you follow WCAG-EM you gather pages for a sample
18:47:26 [alastairc]
scribe-
18:47:31 [kevin]
... If I think about gathering views, I wonder how much there is in the view
18:47:43 [alastairc]
q+ on tab bars
18:47:43 [kevin]
... Views in apps could be quite small steps
18:47:49 [kevin]
+1 to the small steps
18:48:09 [kevin]
... I feel that there is something like how useful this is as a definition for an assessment
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18:49:31 [kevin]
hdv: If you were sampling apps would you be using this definition... eg, with WCAG EM
18:49:48 [hdv]
kevin: wa thinking the same for a lot of apps, a single question could be a view and you'd have many similar ones
18:50:02 [hdv]
chuck: re defining a view… does each view have its own title?
18:50:28 [hdv]
JJ: not always… in apps we'd talk about a screen which has one or more screens… the top bar would have a title and actions
18:50:35 [hdv]
JJ: and underneath there is a scrollable container
18:50:57 [hdv]
JJ: so usually on a screen you would have a title, but not always
18:51:56 [hdv]
kevin: we spoke a few months ago about updating WCAG-EM, would we look at using this new definition to inform an update of WCAG-EM?
18:52:02 [hdv]
JJ: maybe like WCAGICT-EM
18:52:05 [kevin]
q?
18:52:20 [kevin]
ack alastairc
18:52:20 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on tab bars
18:52:54 [hdv]
alastairc: going back to that JJ mentioned most apps are like a back/forward process… a lot of apps have a tab view whicih is kind of like a starting point, like a tab bar at the bottom, each starts its own set of features/functionality, whicih would be the basis for revieq
18:53:00 [hdv]
s/revieq/review
18:53:09 [kirkwood]
we used to call them simply layouts… later called them [UX) Layouts. this is based in print though
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18:53:41 [hdv]
alastairc: I mentioned gathering examples… one place where I saw a good way of visualising it, designers create big flows in Figma, I couldn't supply one of my client's ones, but if we had a set of those, you could almost start drawing which chunks constitute a view
18:53:50 [hdv]
alastairc: that might help as an exercise
18:54:01 [kirkwood]
q+
18:54:37 [kevin]
ack kirkwood
18:55:25 [hdv]
kirkwood: I think of what we always used to use… the old terminology, we're still using, layout as in print pages… when the layout changed and there was a significant change in the layout then that woulld be something to be approved by the design team
18:55:43 [hdv]
kirkwood: that might give us some structure
18:55:53 [Francis_Storr]
q+
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ack Francis_Storr
18:56:31 [sabidussi_marco]
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18:56:57 [hdv]
Francis_Storr: similar line to kirkwood… there is many things that can change on a page, so coming up with a definition of a view and then defining what other things are, eg states on a page… eg WCAG 3 talks about states and layers
18:57:07 [hdv]
Francis_Storr: or a different tab in a tab panel, are they different states in the view
18:57:15 [alastairc]
q+ on the continuum
18:57:18 [hdv]
Francis_Storr: views are important, but what do we call those other things?
18:57:33 [hdv]
q+
18:58:36 [hdv]
JJ: feel the same logic would apply, eg if you restore state does that also update url fragment?
18:59:09 [hdv]
s/, eg if you restore state does that also update url fragment?//
18:59:12 [hdv]
Francis_Storr: eg if you restore state does that also update url fragment?
18:59:22 [hdv]
JJ: if I'd navigate between a tab I would represent it in the URL
19:00:34 [Francis_Storr]
https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#dfn-views
19:00:39 [hdv]
alastairc: we're in that horrible position to define a line on a continuum, if you have a screen open and you have a dropdown, that's not a new view… but if you open a small popover to add an image in a document, that's prob not a new context, but a modal, is that a new view (seems like in WCAG 3 that would be a new view)
19:01:05 [hdv]
alastairc: there are also horrible sites that are a bit like a carousel but each arrow takes you to a new page… could be one page or multiple
19:01:10 [kirkwood]
this is a very, very significant concept! from the COGA accessibility is the change in ‘view’ causing the loss of context and getting back to view and with it is ‘unfamiliar’ and thus losing orientation.
19:01:12 [hdv]
alastairc: we're trying to define a point on a continuum
19:01:31 [hdv]
JJ: existenceo of a back button would help
19:01:31 [hdv]
ack alastairc
19:01:31 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to comment on the continuum
19:01:31 [Rachael]
q+
19:01:45 [hdv]
JJ: one issue on a modal you would be able to go back
19:02:43 [alastairc]
Use of "view": Scoping the (or a) unit of conformance in WCAG 3
19:03:18 [alastairc]
ack hdv
19:03:21 [alastairc]
ack Rachael
19:03:28 [hdv]
hdv: maybe what we need to define or leave undefined can be informed by where it is used, eg views might need to be used for WCAG-EM, other terms may not be used testing any criteria so we cna leave them undefined
19:03:55 [kirkwood]
q+
19:03:57 [hdv]
Rachael: what about content that is repetitive but not on the same page eg in tabs?
19:04:08 [alastairc]
q+ to answer hdv's question
19:04:08 [hdv]
ack kirk
19:04:22 [hdv]
kirkwood: this is just an important concept from the COGA perspective
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19:04:53 [hdv]
kirkwood: the aspect of changing view and getting lost in a view, not understanding how to go back… it's something we're trying to get our arms around with defining a lot of things that you're talking about too
19:05:27 [hdv]
kirkwood: maybe some of these things can be collaborated on with the COGA TF as some of these things can really break a11y for visual orientation and memory purposes
19:05:38 [hdv]
JJ: would be great to collaborate and see previous work
19:05:43 [hdv]
q?
19:05:50 [hdv]
ack al
19:05:50 [Zakim]
alastairc, you wanted to answer hdv's question
19:05:50 [alastairc]
ack alastairc
19:06:08 [hdv]
alastairc: re Hidde's question: this is a unit of conformance for WCAG 3
19:06:18 [hdv]
alastairc: trying to be more accomodating to modern web and non-web context
19:06:39 [hdv]
alastairc: thinking about next steps… if we were doing a subgroup on a guideline we'd start a google doc and capturing screenshots and different examples
19:06:48 [hdv]
alastairc: and use that to poke on proposed definition
19:06:58 [hdv]
alastairc: is it worth doing that?
19:07:02 [hdv]
JJ: good idea
19:07:26 [hdv]
JJ: can get examples from apps, other non ICT and also web
19:07:30 [hdv]
q+
19:07:38 [alastairc]
scribe+
19:07:40 [hdv]
chuck: +q
19:08:00 [alastairc]
hdv: In the WCAG3 space, would that delay it going into WCAG-EM
19:08:08 [hdv]
s/+q/+1
19:08:26 [hdv]
JJ: we can probably take it back to WCAG2ICT? maybe
19:08:28 [hdv]
q+ chuck
19:08:31 [hdv]
ack chuck
19:08:31 [hdv]
ack me
19:08:58 [hdv]
chuck: chatted to Kevin re this, there are some things needing to be discussed, also non-technical things, we need to have some conversations first
19:09:18 [hdv]
JJ: so would wonder if WCAG3 subgroup is the right forum
19:09:38 [hdv]
alastairc: WCAG3 is very active, but WCAG2ICT is not as active
19:09:45 [hdv]
JJ: but they are still going to work on AAA
19:10:03 [alastairc]
s/WCAG2ICT is not as active/WCAG2ICT is in final stages of their publication.
19:10:50 [hdv]
JJ: would be great if updating 'sets of views' could be part of their updates potentially
19:10:55 [hdv]
alastairc: all of these TFs run under the AG banner anyway
19:11:00 [hdv]
q?
19:11:50 [hdv]
JJ: to summarise, we can explore back/forward, view changes, and maybe look at setting up a subgroup to try and research this definition
19:12:08 [hdv]
JJ: to make a document to showcase these views across a wide range of things
19:12:28 [hdv]
hdv: I'd be happy to help with that
19:13:23 [hdv]
RRSAgent, make minutes please
19:13:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-views-minutes.html hdv
19:13:31 [Rachael]
Thank you for a good conversation.
19:13:36 [hdv]
Zakim, end meeting please
19:13:36 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been JJ, bruce_bailey, sabidussi_marco, hdv, kevin, alastairc, kirkwood
19:13:38 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:13:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-views-minutes.html Zakim
19:13:46 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, hdv; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
19:13:46 [hdv]
present+ Jeroen
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20:39:40 [alastairc]
There is a small note on right-to-repair in the CG's guidelines: https://w3c.github.io/sustyweb/#include-e-waste-right-to-repair-and-recycling-policies
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