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15:02:04 <tpac-breakout-bot> Meeting: Data and Account Portability on the Social Web
15:02:04 <tpac-breakout-bot> Chair: Dmitri Zagidulin
15:02:04 <tpac-breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/88
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15:02:05 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
15:02:05 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:02:05 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
15:02:06 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
15:02:06 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
15:02:06 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
15:02:06 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
15:02:08 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
15:02:09 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
15:02:09 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
15:02:09 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
15:02:10 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
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18:18:23 <laurens> present+
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18:18:36 <pchampin> present+
18:18:41 <vmpstr> present+
18:18:41 <rigo> present+
18:18:46 <rigo> scribenick: rigo
18:19:29 <rigo> Presentation by dmitriz
18:19:41 <rigo> URI for presentation?
18:20:07 <rigo> rrsagent, pointer?
18:20:07 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-data-portability-irc#T18-20-07
18:20:07 <chrishtr> present+
18:20:21 <rigo> rrsagent, please draft minutes
18:20:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-data-portability-minutes.html rigo
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18:22:21 <tantek> present+
18:22:33 <rigo> explanation that we have done portability in the past, e.g. on email
18:24:11 <rigo> change currently not possible, data export. Archive example from X/Twitter
18:24:44 <rigo> no export of social graph possible
18:24:58 <rigo> no followers can be taken and exported
18:25:59 <rigo> Social graph is the primary asset and normally not exported, not even upon GDPR request
18:26:30 <rigo> Social WG has done a lot of work, based on that work some ecosystems were created
18:27:18 <rigo> export screen from mastodon with lots of options and export of social graph is possible
18:27:34 <tantek> present+ mnot
18:27:55 <rigo> want to be able to move your account profile and all metadata, interactions etc
18:28:08 <tantek> present+ evan
18:28:15 <rigo>  ... want to move our social graph
18:29:01 <rigo> no option for import in traditional social media
18:30:01 <rigo> mastodon has import screen. But can only import following, nothing else. Because it is technically hard.
18:30:28 <rigo> can we do automated transfer from one service to another
18:30:41 <rigo> id migration can be redirect
18:30:51 <rigo> we can partially move the social graph
18:30:59 <rigo> can do following
18:31:30 <rigo> can partially also do followers. Can also send follower requests to the followers and ask them to follow again
18:32:15 <rigo> move account doesn't transfer activities because it is hard
18:32:39 <rigo> automated? Manual transfer is possible, but automatic is harder
18:33:40 <rigo> live migration would be easier than export/import
18:33:59 <rigo> so as long as both services still run, this could be done
18:34:17 <rigo> UI question, automatic deletion of old account
18:34:58 <rigo> could we add features that migration from dead services is possible and re-import on new provider
18:36:46 <rigo> main difficulty is that authorship and identity is dependent on the server that may be dead
18:37:57 <rigo> challenge: much of the identity is based on domains, but there is some limitation. We want to have non-URI names, what about the new cryptographic identity things coming up in W3C & IETF
18:38:30 <rigo> disambiguate identifers for all authors
18:38:47 <rigo> social services that track versions, need to import versions as well
18:39:06 <rigo> standardise one or more export formats
18:39:55 <rigo> If interested in the topic, join the social web CG.
18:40:10 <rigo> standardise various formats for export
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18:40:36 <rigo> need a roadmap for technologies to standardise
18:41:41 <bengo> I wish this section wasn't dropped from CR->TR. https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/CR-activitypub-20170907/#authorization-lds  "(Linked Data Signatures are best used when authentication is meant to be "long lived" and attached to an object, such as verifying that an object truly was posted by this actor, and signed HTTP messages should be used when
18:41:41 <bengo> authentication or authorization is ephemeral.)"
18:41:44 <rigo> unbundle the current instance model, need headless servers
18:42:25 <tantek> q?
18:43:34 <rigo> chrishtr: mentioned extension to AP is portability, about Bluesky has that?
18:44:32 <rigo> dmitriz: bluesky prot is wrestling with the same challenge, but have made some choices made. But Bluesky uses DID, allows for moving
18:44:55 <rigo> evan: 10k servers and open protocol.
18:45:21 <tantek> present+ bengo
18:45:45 <rigo> dmitriz: portability of objects, but??
18:46:18 <rigo>  ... goal is the same: data portability
18:46:36 <dmitriz> q?
18:47:07 <rigo> bengo: integrity was removed from the spec but should be put back?
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18:47:18 <rigo>  ... certain implementations do this
18:48:03 <rigo> evan: implicit in this conversation, lose trust relation between user and service provider.
18:48:18 <dmitriz> link to the slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1SSFrS2ke2tqMZrRUGyIPsOXIfS62qZFu0JcyBVSz9rI
18:49:24 <rigo> evan: difference in fediverse is that there is no such fixed relation as employment. People are much more nomadic because unhappy with moderation e.g.
18:49:31 <rigo> but may change over time
18:49:57 <bengo> rigo: to clarify, I just mean that normative text about how to do client-side integrity/authenticity via (what was then called) "Linked Data Signatures" had to be removed after CR before TR because there was not a stable spec to refer to, but now there are better client-side signature vocabs to mix into ActivityPub JSON objects/requests
18:49:59 <rigo> ??: what defines the scope, want to work on even larger context.
18:50:55 <rigo>  ... we want to have a larger scope, not only ACL thinking (we want access to this and that data)
18:52:05 <rigo> rigo: question about larger use of AP outside social web.
18:52:23 <tantek> q?
18:52:29 <rigo>  ... question about portability of moderation
18:53:55 <rigo> ??: different approach to portability, look for pragmatic approach via own domain.
18:54:04 <rigo>  ... use with personal domain name
18:55:14 <dmitriz> https://about.iftas.org/
18:55:26 <rigo> ?? Respond aobut moderation. Moderation is not individual and we are scoping individuals. But it is also a very important topic and shoudl be in scope
18:55:39 <bengo> q+
18:56:32 <rigo> bengo: Federated ID based servers. Moderation of content of that post.
18:57:16 <bengo> do moderation of hash of content, not URLs to locations of content that can be changed over time
18:57:36 <rigo> domain based moderation is limited and should go beyond. But non domain based object identifiers could be used
18:58:41 <rigo> Laurens: Linked Web storage has similar challenges
18:58:56 <rigo> pchampin: linked data
18:59:11 <pchampin> scribe+
18:59:32 <pchampin> rigo: W3C, involved in social things since ever
19:00:00 <pchampin> ... Seeing how ActivityPub has taken off, we must address the challenges, esp. in moderation.
19:00:24 <pchampin> ... We have proven that moderation in a federation setting was possible.
19:01:38 <pchampin> chrishtr: do you mean Mastodon?
19:01:59 <pchampin> rigo: not specifically. I think 1/3 of my timeline does not come from Mastodon.
19:02:03 <pchampin> scribe-
19:03:23 <rigo> tantek: want to see a pain-point user scenarios for portability. The user stories really helped us to advance in the Social WG
19:04:36 <rigo> s/??/Lisa:/
19:04:53 <dmitriz> user stories document (in progress): https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/73cd/fep-73cd.md
19:05:51 <rigo> tantek: want to go beyond technical details. Right now it a lot of work. Tantek told 2 user stories / minute and scribe wasn´t able to follow
19:06:22 <rigo> evan: Presentation:
19:06:48 <rigo>  ... Research Director of Social Web Foundation.
19:07:04 <rigo>  .... how to we get from Specification to a reference implementation
19:07:11 <rigo>  ... or proof of concept
19:08:08 <rigo> bengo: Lifewire in the past. Protocol labs, DIDs in bluesky, conformance testing
19:08:28 <rigo> @@ Google: just learning
19:09:27 <rigo> Chris Herisson, working at google and working on Chrome. Want to learn more. Interested in having the federated prot and joined the CG recently
19:09:51 <rigo> Lisa Dussault: Data transfer initiative
19:10:23 <rigo> AronCoburn: Working at Inrupt,
19:10:50 <rigo> standardized storage will be key in Activity Pub.
19:10:50 <chrishtr> s/Chris Herisson/Chris Harrelson/
19:11:06 <rigo> client to server storage exchange
19:11:16 <tantek> q+ to note re: standardizing storage
19:12:22 <rigo> @1 worked in the Social WG in the first year. Social graph should be main effort. Basic user profile that can be done via @2 API
19:12:43 <rigo>  ... standardizing social graph
19:12:47 <tantek> "focus and make the social graph portable" is literally what we did with XFN, back in 2003 https://gmpg.org/xfn/
19:13:22 <rigo> MattLee: have 70k users and want to allow for users to move with their data
19:14:05 <rigo> dmitriz: standardizing the social graph. How many times did people reivinent identification and contact?
19:14:24 <rigo>  ... we need to take that into account
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19:14:53 <rigo>  ... we need to take that into account and extend and be involved in address books
19:15:04 <tantek> note that the latest version of vCard incorporated XFN: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6350
19:15:17 <rigo> pchampin: new WG on mydata and participated the first call
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19:15:23 <tantek> q?
19:16:28 <rigo> discussion about vcard,
19:16:47 <rigo> dmitriz: use subset of vcard 4.0
19:17:02 <rigo> pchampin: one challenge was to find an alignment
19:17:02 <tantek> q?
19:17:03 <tantek> vq?
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19:17:42 <bengo> activitypub at mydata.org 2018 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikCumzhfV9k
19:18:22 <rigo> rigo: identity is key as we need ephemeral and less ephemeral ids
19:18:33 <rigo> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:18:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-data-portability-minutes.html rigo
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