15:50:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:50:08 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-rdf-star-irc
15:50:09 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:50:10 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
15:50:38 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star Working Group TPAC F2F
15:52:21 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/20-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:53:54 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
15:54:03 <ora> My intro slides are here: https://www.lassila.org/publications/2024/TPAC2024/RDF-star-intro/Overview.html
15:55:34 <betehess> betehess has joined #rdf-star
15:56:09 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
15:58:41 <ktk> regrets: olaf, enrico, AZ
15:58:51 <niklasl> present+
15:58:55 <ktk> present+
15:58:58 <gtw> present+
15:59:01 <pchampin> present+
15:59:02 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
15:59:16 <betehess> present+
16:00:17 <pfps> present+
16:00:40 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
16:00:46 <AndyS> present+
16:01:06 <pfps> What's the meeting passcode?
16:01:23 <niklasl> 2024
16:01:36 <pfps> thanks
16:01:48 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
16:01:49 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
16:01:55 <Dominik_T> present+
16:02:04 <tl> present+
16:03:24 <TallTed> bleah. complete conflict with DID WG...
16:03:47 <Tpt> present+
16:03:54 <TallTed> s/2024//
16:03:55 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
16:04:44 <ktk> scribe: ktk
16:04:58 <doerthe> present+
16:05:08 <AndyS> No objection
16:05:16 <ktk> ora: We can record this if there are no objections
16:05:23 <ktk> ... ok we can record this
16:07:09 <ora> present+
16:07:11 <ora> chair+
16:07:19 <bengo> bengo has joined #rdf-star
16:07:23 <bengo> present+
16:08:10 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
16:08:39 <gkellogg> present+
16:09:27 <gkellogg> zakim, who's here?
16:09:27 <Zakim> Present: niklasl, ktk, gtw, pchampin, betehess, pfps, AndyS, Dominik_T, tl, Tpt, doerthe, ora, bengo, gkellogg
16:09:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see gkellogg, bengo, doerthe, tl, Dominik_T, TallTed, pfps, betehess, ora, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, niklasl, Tpt, rhiaro, ktk, driib5, csarven, gb, agendabot, gtw, pchampin
16:11:59 <ktk> Ora: Everyone introduced each other.
16:12:09 <pchampin> Slideset: RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
16:12:12 <pchampin> s|Slideset: RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight|
16:12:34 <pchampin> Slideset: https://www.lassila.org/publications/2024/TPAC2024/RDF-star-intro/Overview.html
16:12:42 <pchampin> [slide 1]
16:12:46 <pchampin> [slide 2]
16:12:59 <TallTed> regrets+
16:13:06 <TallTed> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
16:13:35 <ktk> Ora: Talking about RDF history (see slides)
16:14:15 <pchampin> [slide 3]
16:14:57 <ktk> ... talking about Statements about statements
16:15:45 <pchampin> [slide 4]
16:16:18 <ktk> ... talking about use cases
16:16:32 <pchampin> [slide 5]
16:16:36 <ktk> ... talking about Challenges
16:17:12 <TallTed> ora / ktk - please share the link to the recording as soon as it's known.
16:18:32 <pchampin> [slide 6]
16:18:46 <ktk> ... talking about Semantics
16:20:06 <pchampin> [slide 7]
16:20:24 <ktk> ... talking about Syntax
16:21:04 <pchampin> [slide 8]
16:22:17 <ktk> ... talking about Status
16:22:53 <pchampin> q?
16:23:15 <niklasl> My slides are at: https://niklasl.github.io/rdf-docs/presentations/RDF-reifiers-1/
16:23:28 <pchampin> Slideset: https://niklasl.github.io/rdf-docs/presentations/RDF-reifiers-1/
16:23:36 <ktk> niklasl: Presenting Reifiers
16:23:53 <pchampin> [slide 2]
16:24:10 <ktk> ... talking about a simple triple
16:24:35 <ktk> ... talking about triple terms
16:25:03 <pchampin> [slide4]
16:25:15 <ktk> ... talking about triple terms are abstract
16:25:22 <pchampin> i|... talking about triple terms|[slide 3]
16:26:15 <pchampin> [slide 4]
16:26:22 <ktk> ... talking about reifier syntax
16:26:32 <pchampin> s|slide 4|slide 5
16:26:35 <ktk> ... talking about reifier suguar & reifier and assertion
16:26:53 <pchampin> [slide 7]
16:26:54 <ktk> ... talking about annotation sugar
16:26:55 <pchampin> [slide 8]
16:27:27 <pchampin> [slide 9]
16:27:28 <ktk> ... talking about naming reifiers
16:28:00 <pchampin> [slide 10]
16:28:01 <ktk> ... talking about kinds of reifiers
16:28:33 <pchampin> [slide 11]
16:28:34 <ktk> ... talking about provenance
16:29:04 <pchampin> [slide 12]
16:29:05 <ktk> ... talking about qualification
16:29:45 <pchampin> [slide 13]
16:30:05 <pchampin> [slide 14]
16:30:07 <ktk> ... talking about compound qualification
16:30:29 <pchampin> [slide 15]
16:30:36 <ktk> ... talking about compound provenance
16:30:50 <pchampin> [slide 16]
16:30:52 <ktk> ... talking about varying granularity
16:31:35 <pchampin> [slide 17]
16:31:36 <ktk> ... talking about name forms
16:32:34 <pchampin> [slide 18]
16:32:35 <ktk> ... talking about historical circumstances
16:34:11 <pchampin> [slide 19]
16:34:14 <pchampin> [slide 20]
16:34:50 <ktk> ... finishing presentation.
16:34:54 <pchampin> q+
16:35:00 <ora> ack pchampin
16:36:00 <ktk> q+
16:36:13 <ktk> pchampin: is the wikidata example made up?
16:36:18 <ktk> niklasl: it's almost like this
16:37:15 <pchampin> q+
16:37:28 <ora> ack pchampin
16:37:28 <pfps> Wikidata has an annotation mechanism that generalizes the one in labelled property graphs, and is quite different from how things are done in RDF.
16:37:47 <ora> ack ktk
16:39:10 <ktk> ktk: do we have syntax that is asserted by default
16:39:20 <ktk> niklasl: yes the annotation syntax, in turtle
16:40:05 <ktk> pfps: in wikidata it's hard to map it to RDF, as you can see. it's closer to labeled PGs
16:40:41 <ktk> ora: we can discuss what we want to discuss in the remaining time available at TPAC
16:40:59 <ktk> niklasl: I have another presentation for in-depth discussions
16:41:29 <ktk> ora: we decided to switch to a backlog-based model from now on. we have some dicussions tagged for F2F discussions here
16:42:05 <ktk> tl: I have another topic for Thursday, slides not ready yet
16:42:39 <pchampin> topic: Un-star operation to support RDF Dataset Canonicalization?
16:42:48 <pchampin> q+
16:43:00 <ktk> gkellogg: we talk about "un-star" since long time
16:43:15 <ktk> ... we want to transform the representation in some form of other representation
16:43:51 <pchampin> i|Ora: Everyone introduced each other.|topic: RDF-Star: 2 Years Status
16:44:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:44:26 <ktk> ... I assumed this will be standard reification.
16:44:59 <ktk> ... is the mechanism by which we transform triple terms simply reification triples?
16:45:11 <ora> ack pchampin
16:45:17 <ktk> ... should we use different types and properties for reification triples?
16:45:32 <bengo> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/114
16:45:32 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/114 -> Issue 114 Un-star operation to support RDF Dataset Canonicalization? (by niklasl) [needs discussion] [discuss-f2f]
16:46:00 <ktk> pchampin: from the CWG: we defined RDF-Star semantics on top of the standard RDF semantics
16:46:43 <ktk> ... we are using the same term "un-star" for a totally different purpose now
16:48:09 <ktk> ... many people asked why do you not just singleton named graphs.
16:48:18 <gkellogg> q+ to discuss conflation with reifiers and graph names
16:48:26 <ktk> ... I inteded to write something and share it in advance but didn't manage to.
16:48:37 <ktk> ... do we want to have the "un-star" mapping to be lossless?
16:48:53 <ktk> ... I have a simpler version but it's not 100% lossless
16:48:54 <bumblefudge> bumblefudge has joined #rdf-star
16:48:58 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:48:59 <Zakim> gkellogg, you wanted to discuss conflation with reifiers and graph names
16:50:03 <AndyS> q+ to ask about scope of the solution
16:50:06 <ktk> gkellogg: the issue is that we might create something that inserts triple in an existing named graph
16:50:46 <ktk> pchampin: using reifiers as graph names would definitely create a number of issues. I would rather go for encoding each triple term into a blanknode made singleton named graph
16:51:09 <gtw> q+
16:51:19 <tl> q+
16:52:12 <ktk> ... we encode the triple term into a singleton named graph that is a blank node
16:52:36 <ktk> ... we also add another graph that says "this blank node is a triple term"
16:52:52 <ktk> ... and any other blank node that is a triple term.
16:52:56 <bengo> q+ to ask if unstar to graph and unstar to dataset are both useful to standardize for different reasons
16:54:37 <ktk> pchampin: I try to keep the un-star mapping as liberal as possible.
16:56:02 <ktk> ... if there is no triple term in an existing dataset this should work. but if you have already an un-star set in it, it becomes an edge-case
16:56:56 <ktk> ... with that we could convert every RDF-Star 1.2 into RDF 1.1 "classic"
16:57:15 <ora> ack AndyS
16:57:16 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about scope of the solution
16:57:48 <ktk> AndyS: we might want to convert an RDF 1.1 graph with reification into a RDF 1.2 graph.
16:58:31 <ktk> ... what pchampin talked about, it got complicated once you said you want to put a dataset into a dataset that already contains a graph that has reification
16:58:43 <ora> ack gtw
16:58:48 <pchampin> q+
16:58:49 <ktk> ... we might simplify that by saing it's two datasets and it becomes a merge operation
16:59:39 <ktk> gtw: we should do that per triple-term. it's natural thing to look at what that looks like per reifier.
16:59:49 <ora> ack tl
16:59:52 <gkellogg> q+
17:00:06 <ktk> tl: Dydra already implements RDF-Star with named graphs. there is some experience
17:00:17 <ktk> ... they are happy to share the experience.
17:01:18 <ktk> ... The mapping to standard triples with the RDF reification vocab would be useful too and I would like to have it lossless
17:01:34 <ora> ack bengo
17:01:34 <Zakim> bengo, you wanted to ask if unstar to graph and unstar to dataset are both useful to standardize for different reasons
17:02:04 <niklasl> q+
17:02:09 <ktk> bengo: it would be useful to un-star to triples or graphs for different reasons.
17:02:28 <tl> q+
17:02:43 <ora> ack pchampin
17:03:39 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:04:31 <ktk> pchampin: to respond to AndyS about staring standard reification: that is for me a totally different problem, it was not my intention in that proposal
17:04:57 <ktk> ... I had two goals: Canonicalization & flattening
17:05:16 <ktk> gkellogg: regarding the notion to create named graphs per reifiers.
17:06:04 <ktk> ... querying would become much more difficult.
17:06:07 <ora> ack niklasl
17:06:31 <ktk> niklasl: it's important to un-star to RDF "classic" for a number of reasons
17:06:49 <ktk> ... for example to be able to add it to an existing graph store as soon as possible
17:07:13 <ktk> ... the problem is union graphs that many stores do.
17:07:50 <ktk> ... I believe using classic reification properties is frugal.
17:08:24 <ora> ack tl
17:08:59 <ktk> tl: we had an experiment with nested named graphs. the problem is that we have to extend SPARQL to query that. triple terms are much more powerful in that respect.
17:09:23 <ktk> ... it wouldn't be that easy with just named graphs. and also other reasons. things get tricky on SPARQL level
17:10:32 <pchampin> action: pchampin to write a PR on rdf-concepts for the unstar mapping
17:10:40 <gb> Created -> action #129 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/129
17:10:42 <ktk> ora: the question is how much effort do we want to put into edge cases that might not occure anyway
17:10:58 <ktk> s/occure/occur/
17:12:24 <ktk> pchampin: I will write a pull-request with some examples
17:12:30 <ktk> ora: this will go back into the backlog
17:13:24 <ktk> pchampin: let's scan the backlog to prepare for Thursday as well
17:13:28 <ktk> ora: good idea
17:13:34 <pchampin> topic: Backlog to add additional issues
17:13:47 <ktk> backlog: https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
17:13:49 <pchampin> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/6
17:14:18 <ktk> pchampin: these are the ones "needs discussion"
17:15:27 <AndyS> q+
17:17:33 <AndyS> q-
17:19:03 <ktk> pchampin: we talk about https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/79
17:19:03 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/79 -> Issue 79 Reconsider bidirectional (bidi) tag? (by termontwouter) [needs discussion] [wr:open]
17:19:54 <AndyS> q+
17:20:01 <ora> ack AndyS
17:21:44 <gkellogg> PROPOSAL: The working group has considered https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/79 and will continue to support initial text direction in RDF Language-Tagged Literals. We will not otherwise consider full bidi.
17:21:48 <pchampin> +1
17:21:51 <gkellogg> +1
17:21:53 <ora> +1
17:21:54 <AndyS> +1
17:21:55 <gtw> +1
17:22:06 <Dominik_T> +1
17:22:21 <doerthe> +1
17:22:24 <ktk> +1
17:22:34 <niklasl> +1
17:22:37 <tl> +1
17:23:01 <Tpt> +1
17:23:31 <eBremer> eBremer has joined #rdf-star
17:23:36 <gkellogg> RESOLVED: The working group has considered https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/79 and will continue to support initial text direction in RDF Language-Tagged Literals. We will not otherwise consider full bidi.
17:23:37 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/79 -> Issue 79 Reconsider bidirectional (bidi) tag? (by termontwouter) [needs discussion] [wr:open]
17:28:26 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:28:28 <tl> AndyS thanks!
17:28:36 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:29:07 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:43:50 <TallTed> Does anyone have the URL to the recording?
17:44:05 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:44:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:48:00 <TallTed> pchampin - Note that the minutes at <https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-rdf-star-minutes.html> do NOT include what was there "yesterday". Also, there's now nothing at <https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-rdf-star-minutes.html> nor <https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-rdf-star-irc>.
17:48:32 <TallTed> pchampin -- bah, I'm looking at rdf-star for did logs. sorry.
17:56:10 <ktk> TallTed: not sure who started the recording, probably pchampin or ora
17:57:06 <ktk> niklasl: great slides by the way
17:59:47 <AndyS> +1
18:00:36 <niklasl> Thank you! I had a lot of great feedback from the group, so I won't take all the credit. :)
18:03:35 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:04:24 <gkellogg> Power out in the hotel, so there will be some delay before we start up.
18:04:49 <TallTed> i|I will not start a new log at midnight|previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/20-rdf-star-minutes.html
18:04:49 <TallTed> i|I will not start a new log at midnight|next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-rdf-star-minutes.html
18:04:49 <TallTed> i|I will not start a new log at midnight|agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/f8a5c74c-2bd4-45d4-89e7-9f5c84c6f9e0/
18:04:54 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:04:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:05:40 <dlehn> dlehn has joined #rdf-star
18:06:02 <TallTed> i/I will not start a new log at midnight/previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/20-rdf-star-minutes.html
18:06:02 <TallTed> i/I will not start a new log at midnight/next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-rdf-star-minutes.html
18:06:02 <TallTed> i/I will not start a new log at midnight/agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/f8a5c74c-2bd4-45d4-89e7-9f5c84c6f9e0/
18:06:07 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:06:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:07:46 <TallTed> i|this meeting spans midnight|previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/20-rdf-star-minutes.html
18:07:46 <TallTed> i|this meeting spans midnight|next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/26-rdf-star-minutes.html
18:07:46 <TallTed> i|this meeting spans midnight|agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/f8a5c74c-2bd4-45d4-89e7-9f5c84c6f9e0/
18:07:50 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:07:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:07:58 <anatoly-scherbakov> anatoly-scherbakov has joined #rdf-star
18:10:31 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:11:15 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
18:11:20 <Dominik_T> present+
18:15:53 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
18:16:00 <niklasl> present+
18:17:10 <pchampin> just so you know, there is a power outage in the TPAC hotel, so the meetings are disrupted
18:19:32 <dlehn> 9 of us are on zoom and starting to chat anyway.  we're not sure what that agenda should be.
18:20:32 <betehess> betehess has joined #rdf-star
18:25:41 <anatoly-scherbakov> https://github.com/gtfierro/reasonable
18:26:22 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:27:25 <anatoly-scherbakov> https://github.com/pbonte/roxi
18:33:50 <ktk> https://github.com/zazuko/blueprint
18:34:14 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:35:46 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
18:36:17 <gkellogg_> Power out may go on until 3:00 PDT, or about 3 1/2 hours from now.
18:37:02 <gkellogg_> zakim, who's here?
18:37:02 <Zakim> Present: niklasl, ktk, gtw, pchampin, betehess, pfps, AndyS, Dominik_T, tl, Tpt, doerthe, ora, bengo, gkellogg
18:37:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see gkellogg_, gkellogg, Dominik_T, anatoly-scherbakov, dlehn, tl, TallTed, pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, niklasl, Tpt, rhiaro, ktk, driib5, csarven, gb, agendabot, gtw,
18:37:04 <Zakim> ... pchampin
18:38:37 <ktk> gkellogg_: oh wow what should we do?
18:39:59 <gkellogg_> There's really nothing we can do and we should end the meetings for the day. We may start something up when power is back, but that's probably too late for people in Europe.
18:40:35 <gkellogg_> zakim, end meeting.
18:40:35 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been niklasl, ktk, gtw, pchampin, betehess, pfps, AndyS, Dominik_T, tl, Tpt, doerthe, ora, bengo, gkellogg
18:40:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:40:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
18:40:45 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, gkellogg_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:40:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
18:43:32 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:43:40 <gkellogg> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:43:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/24-rdf-star-minutes.html gkellogg
18:44:29 <dlehn> this might have been the presentation for today? https://json-ld.github.io/w3c-tpac-2024-presentations/json-ld-star/
18:44:45 <gkellogg> Yes, that is what we were going to go over.
18:45:35 <anatoly-scherbakov> (Regarding triples in subject position: {"@id": "https://example.org/Alice", "name": Alice}: {probability: 0.8} is valid YAML.)
18:46:27 <anatoly-scherbakov> Although it is no longer compatible with JSON of course.
18:48:14 <TallTed> s/gkellogg_: oh wow/gkellogg_ -- oh wow/
19:04:49 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star