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15:36:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:36:52 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
15:37:19 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco @TPAC2024
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16:15:28 <wendyreid> Topic: Making substantial changes to EPUB
16:15:31 <Hadrien> present+
16:15:34 <dlazin> present+
16:15:37 <Daihei3> present+
16:16:26 <ivan> scribe+ mgarrish
16:16:28 <wendyreid> scribe+ mgarrish
16:16:51 <CharlesL> scribe+ mgarrish
16:17:21 <mgarrish> wendyreid: first topic is about substantial changes to epub - we have been maintaining the spec since we published it last year - 3.3 was mainly a maintenance update
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16:17:47 <Makoto3> +present
16:17:59 <mgarrish> wendyreid: we are looking at one change around webtoons but there are other things like using html syntax, annotations, updates to make the format more modern and adaptable
16:18:13 <mgarrish> wendyreid: our charter expires next june so we were going to have to have this discussion anyway
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16:18:50 <mgarrish> wendyreid: our current charter locks us into maintenance - we can correct errors, typos, small tweaks to existing features, but cannot add new features
16:19:15 <mgarrish> wendyreid: we need to talk about the future of epub - we can look beyond epub 3
16:19:32 <duga> q+
16:19:32 <ivan> q+
16:19:34 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/issues/6
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16:19:38 <wendyreid> ack duga
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16:19:51 <rickj> q+
16:20:20 <mgarrish> duga: I see that there are at least two broad categories of changes we can do - reimagine things as epub 4, and then little things like webtoons where we want to add metadata that doesn't break backwards compatibility
16:20:34 <mgarrish> duga: we need a way to do the smaller things without necessarily doing the big
16:20:52 <wendyreid> q+
16:20:56 <gpellegrino> +1 to Brady
16:20:57 <tzviya8> +1 to duga
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16:21:00 <mgarrish> duga: need a way to get two implementations and get a feature in the spec quickly
16:21:01 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:21:30 <mgarrish> ivan: a little bit the same as what Brady said - we need to separate what we're thinking of doing - epub 4 is a big step that may not be worth the trouble
16:22:24 <mgarrish> ... there are some things that we can dream up that sound good - for every item we should have a clear statement showing this is what the industry needs
16:22:49 <wendyreid> ack rickj
16:22:52 <mgarrish> ... industry is also not uniform - reading systems and publishers needs can differ, but it should still influence what we do
16:23:06 <gpellegrino> +1 to Ìvan
16:23:25 <mgarrish> rickj: the concept of an epub 4 is scary because of adoption time, but we need to do some things
16:23:56 <mgarrish> ... we don't want to break backwards compatibility  but I have no way to know what differs between versions of epub 3 we do produce
16:24:03 <duga> q+
16:24:04 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
16:24:05 <liisamk> +1 to knowing what each thing is
16:24:13 <tzviya8> q+ to say business and tech needs merge
16:24:29 <rickj> q+
16:25:10 <mgarrish> wendyreid: I agree with Brady and think in the short term we look at necessary changes to 3.3 and then in the longer term consider an epub 4
16:25:35 <mgarrish> ... epub 4 is going to be a five year project and that's not even including adoption into the real world
16:25:55 <wendyreid> ack duga
16:26:00 <mgarrish> ... I don't want to get too fixed into only working on 3 or only moving to 4
16:26:30 <mgarrish> duga: it would be interesting to see if there's an easier way to do maintenance - to add features in addition to the minor changes
16:26:31 <ivan> q+
16:26:48 <mgarrish> ... maybe instead of profiles we can flag new features that may not work
16:26:53 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:27:36 <mgarrish> ivan: administratively speaking class 4 changes are not allowed and we have to recharter for that
16:27:40 <wendyreid> ack tzviya8
16:27:45 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
16:27:45 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to say business and tech needs merge
16:28:19 <mgarrish> tzviya8: historically we haven't had good success with profiles - but we do have ways of calling out content like mathml in documents
16:28:40 <mgarrish> ... in terms of business v technical needs we can't do one without the other
16:30:09 <wendyreid> ack rickj
16:30:10 <mgarrish> ... we had tdm (text and data mining) community group note and it's had a lot of uptake but as a note it didn't go through testing - as a result it didn't go through the W3C AC and get feedback that could have been useful
16:30:45 <tzviya8> +1 to rickj
16:31:14 <gpellegrino> EDUPUB!
16:31:19 <mgarrish> rickj: education market has dramatically changed in the last 20 years - we put learning materials into the system now only books - is that part of the conversation
16:31:48 <mgarrish> liisamk: we've always wanted to look at multiple marketplaces - are people willing to come have that conversation
16:32:13 <mgarrish> ... last 20 years of epub has worked in the marketplace but has been dumbed down to work for the lowest common denominator
16:32:30 <mgarrish> ... we need the nicer features but also have the fallbacks work
16:32:36 <George> q+
16:33:17 <mgarrish> wendyreid: if we were to think up design principles for epub adaptability and flexibility would need to be top
16:33:36 <mgarrish> ... the same format is for a text-only novel as for a textbook as for a manga
16:33:57 <mgarrish> ... we want them all to be well produced and accessible
16:34:02 <wendyreid> ack George
16:34:25 <ivan> q+
16:34:44 <mgarrish> George: I want to echo what Rick said about education - epub content is being integrated into an LMS but also with testing and quizzes so moving beyond epub sphere
16:35:02 <mgarrish> ... we're not testing reading systems that are integrated into LMS because they are not fully epub
16:35:14 <mgarrish> ... it's also influencing what is happening in libraries
16:35:50 <mgarrish> ... we also have accessibility and the evolving legal frameworks and the problems with fixed layouts that need addressing
16:35:55 <wendyreid> ack iv
16:36:19 <mgarrish> ivan: I would like to understand what it means technically for epub to be into the educational space
16:36:34 <mgarrish> ... what are the possible changes need to better fit the educational space
16:37:01 <dlazin> q+
16:37:03 <LaurentLM> q+
16:37:06 <wendyreid> ack dlazin
16:37:35 <ivan> q+
16:37:37 <mgarrish> dlazin: I want to go back the question about what we're chartering as - bug fix or to develop new features
16:38:24 <mgarrish> ... one of the things I see as someone who hasn't built a reading system is this group has a lot of history in background but the next generation won't have this info
16:38:44 <mgarrish> ... there is a limited opportunity to do an epub 4 right with that knowledge
16:39:10 <mgarrish> ... ebooks is a growing space and looking 50 years in the future I can't believe we'll still be on xhtml
16:39:11 <tzviya8> +1 to dlazin
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16:39:34 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
16:39:34 <mgarrish> ... I'm in favour of chartering for an epub 4 and doing this now
16:39:40 <ivan> q-
16:40:10 <mgarrish> LaurentLM: everything comes back to business needs - only one I see is to replace every textbook by reflowable for all students
16:40:36 <mgarrish> ... they want to have quizzes and pass information to a server - they are using pseudo-epub with html inside, not xhtml
16:40:55 <janina1> present+
16:40:57 <mgarrish> ... as long as most reading systems don't accept post requests from content I don't think this will go anywhere
16:41:46 <ivan> q+
16:41:50 <LaurentLM> q+
16:41:50 <gpellegrino> q+
16:41:57 <mgarrish> wendyreid: we all agree that we want to continue to evolve epub - is there anyone who has concerns or objections to us rechartering on developing epub 4 or adding new features
16:42:00 <ikkwong> q+
16:42:03 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:42:38 <mgarrish> ivan: the fact that we have put ourselves in the position of not allowing class 4 changes I don't think we can recharter by just taking that clause out
16:42:48 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:42:58 <mgarrish> ... if we recharter we need to list very specific goals that we hope to achieve and create a new working group
16:43:23 <mgarrish> ... we need to make sure we don't make this mistake again of not allowing additional changes
16:43:35 <mgarrish> ... it's never too early to start the rechartering process
16:45:07 <mgarrish> is it correct that what is required is to think again what the attitude is? javascript is grudgingly accepted, for example. Scripting is understandably insecure but they are also important - we need to rethink how we formulate scripting support
16:45:10 <rickj> q+
16:45:39 <mgarrish> ... are there other things beyong scripting that education will need?
16:45:42 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
16:46:04 <duga> q+
16:46:18 <mgarrish> LaurentLM: if we move to html syntax this is a major evolution as many reading systems won't handle non-xml formats
16:46:32 <mgarrish> ... if we put epub 4 in a charter it will make the publishing industry anxious
16:46:42 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
16:46:48 <wendyreid> q+ to say something about HTML
16:47:31 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: for me it's okay to go for a new charter if we split the track between big and small changes - we need to improve semantics for education
16:47:41 <wendyreid> ack ikkwong
16:47:42 <CharlesL> +1 to two tracks for new charter/ 1=EPUB New, 2=Small new features / fixes
16:48:01 <mgarrish> ikkwong: why did we stop at 3.3?
16:48:14 <mgarrish> rickj: 3.1 had breaking changes
16:48:40 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
16:48:46 <mgarrish> ivan: fear of rejection if we left things open to change
16:49:17 <mgarrish> AvneeshSingh: worried we should not be scaring the industry - we should keep backwards compatibility even if we add incremental features
16:49:32 <tzviya8> q+ to comment on lessons from 3.2
16:50:05 <mgarrish> ... the education field is continuously evolving - we should ensure the changes are incubated in the community group
16:50:13 <wendyreid> ack rickj
16:50:20 <wendyreid> zakim, close the queue
16:50:20 <Zakim> ok, wendyreid, the speaker queue is closed
16:50:57 <Hadrien> +1 for incubating in CG before moving to a WG
16:51:28 <mgarrish> rickj: from our perspective, there are three integration points: LMSes, courseware (homework system), and textbooks - the latter is epub
16:51:51 <wendyreid> ack duga
16:51:52 <mgarrish> ... every system has a reader so we're down to the lowest common denominator - need a way to announce what is supported
16:52:14 <LaurentLM> q+
16:52:14 <Makoto3> I will go to bed and come back in the last session to discuss the PAS submission of 3.3, RS 3.3, and A11Y 1.1.
16:52:27 <dlazin> q+
16:52:27 <mgarrish> duga: I didn't propose two tracks but two types of changes we need - two tracks we might have a tough time staffing and maintaining
16:53:15 <mgarrish> ... it feels like the CG is not getting to ideas we pass to them
16:53:27 <tzviya8> +1 to duga
16:53:43 <wendyreid> q?
16:53:47 <ivan> +1 to bduga (alas!)
16:53:51 <mgarrish> ... if we don't get the process right we're going to end up with big efforts that don't go anywhere, like edupub, etc.
16:53:53 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
16:53:53 <Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to say something about HTML
16:54:38 <mgarrish> wendyreid: I think the two streams idea came from me but it's more like a roadmap in chartering - one stream is things we want to incubate
16:55:46 <mgarrish> ... I've been doing some internal research on html and it's not a big deal to us in terms of how our reading system is constructed or renders content
16:56:00 <George> q+
16:56:07 <tzviya8> +1 to wendyreid
16:56:13 <mgarrish> ... we're always going to support whatever is thrown at us - we still support epub 2
16:56:26 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
16:56:27 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to comment on lessons from 3.2
16:56:28 <mgarrish> ... we aren't going to drop support for xhtml because we add support for html
16:56:29 <dlazin> +1 to wendyreid
16:56:50 <mgarrish> tzviya8: we need to look at what went wrong with 3.1
16:57:23 <mgarrish> ... very few business people were involved in the decisions - the workflow ended up being problematic
16:58:00 <mgarrish> ... we have not had an effective chair of the CG for some time so we need to look at how everything gets supported
16:58:50 <mgarrish> wendyreid: action item: what should a roadmap for the future look like - not focus on the current charter but what we want to do
16:58:55 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/issues/6
16:59:24 <mgarrish> ... we need the use cases and needs for education
17:00:10 <mgarrish> ivan: I will look into the sweetest and shortest way to recharter - to see if we unbind ourselves from the current lock on features
17:00:29 <ivan> rrsagent, draft meeting
17:00:29 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft meeting', ivan.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:00:30 <wendyreid> Topic: Scrolled content / webtoons
17:00:42 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
17:01:26 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2602
17:01:43 <duga> q+
17:02:20 <wendyreid> zakim, open the queue
17:02:20 <Zakim> ok, wendyreid, the speaker queue is open
17:02:22 <duga> q+
17:02:29 <wendyreid> scribe+
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17:02:52 <wendyreid> scribe+ dlazin
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17:04:46 <dlazin> shiestyle webtoons born in Korea, market increasing in Japan
17:05:00 <dlazin> using rendition-flow:scrolled-continuous metadata today
17:05:17 <dlazin> shiestyle: major systems like Apple support this
17:05:22 <wendyreid> s/shiestyle/shiestyle:/
17:05:29 <dlazin> shiestyle: (earlier) webtoons born in Korea, market increasing in Japan
17:05:38 <dlazin> shiestyle: (earlier) using rendition-flow:scrolled-continuous metadata today
17:05:55 <dlazin> shiestyle: mechanisms for webtoons are not defined yet
17:06:34 <dlazin> shiestyle: propose new metadata https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2412
17:08:16 <dlazin> shiestyle: Hadrien's proposal in https://gist.github.com/HadrienGardeur/273a9d195f4a938880aa0bf8d2fc5dd9/ requires "class 4" changes to epub (thus new charter)
17:08:48 <dlazin> shiestyle: Want to continue to support the Apple (rendition-flow) metadata as well as new metadata
17:09:02 <dlazin> shiestyle: because otherwise old webtoons won't work; we need backwards compatibility
17:09:12 <dlazin> shiestyle: passing to Hadrien to explain his proposal
17:09:37 <wendyreid> q+ to propose a third path
17:09:46 <dlazin> Hadrien: rendition-flow is a little misguided
17:10:07 <dlazin> Hadrien: it suggests that you can have fine-grained control in how an epub flows
17:10:17 <dlazin> Hadrien: But you can't. The user decides. That's what epub is about.
17:10:37 <dlazin> Hadrien: Thus rendition-flow is not a well-used feature of epub.
17:11:01 <dlazin> Hadrien: Might want to consider dropping layouts (fixed layout?) in the future, but let's not talk about that now.
17:11:09 <dlazin> Hadrien: A webtoon doesn't behave like a fixed layout.
17:11:29 <dlazin> Hadrien: Today fixed layout means that everything is contained in the viewport. That's not what you want for a webtoon.
17:11:40 <dlazin> Hadrien: For a webtoon, you want only the full width in the viewport, not the height.
17:11:48 <dlazin> Hadrien: There is no such thing as a page in webtoons.
17:12:12 <dlazin> Hadrien: Consequently I have a hard time with the idea that a webtoon is fixed layout.
17:12:27 <dlazin> Hadrien: Misusing a property that is already problematic is not a good idea.
17:12:45 <dlazin> Hadrien: My proposal instead is a new property for rendition:layout, which would be `scrolled`.
17:12:47 <wendyreid> qq+
17:12:55 <wendyreid> q- wendyreid
17:12:57 <dlazin> Hadrien: Would fit to the width of the viewport, with a continuous scroll.
17:13:01 <wendyreid> q- wendyreid
17:13:01 <liisamk> q+
17:13:03 <wendyreid> qq+
17:13:11 <dlazin> Hadrien: A few other optional things:
17:13:32 <dlazin> Hadrien: break-scroll-before: current webtoons only allow single episodes
17:13:54 <dlazin> Hadrien: this new property would allow multi-episode epubs (like buying a graphic novel or an entire season/series)
17:14:53 <dlazin> Hadrien: There are other scrolled comics (bottom-to-top, left-to-right) which are experimental, but thus you should be able to specify the scroll direction
17:15:11 <dlazin> Hadrien: that would be rendition:scroll-direction
17:16:43 <dlazin> Hadrien: proposal available on Gist, https://gist.github.com/HadrienGardeur/273a9d195f4a938880aa0bf8d2fc5dd9/
17:16:55 <wendyreid> q?
17:17:00 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
17:17:01 <Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to react to tzviya
17:17:08 <dlazin> wendyreid: a third proposal!!
17:17:19 <shiestyle> q+
17:17:37 <dlazin> wendyreid: or maybe fourth, who knows, not me
17:17:59 <dlazin> wendyreid: agree with a lot of Hadrien's proposal
17:18:34 <dlazin> wendyreid: I see a very big issue with adding a third value to rendition:layout; it will break reading systems
17:19:00 <dlazin> wendyreid: so we keep rendition:flow but add an update to dir (direction) or add scroll-direction
17:19:19 <wendyreid> ack duga
17:19:30 <dlazin> wendyreid: also add spine direction and other episode metadata
17:19:44 <dlazin> duga: I did a proof-of-concept implementation of webtoons
17:20:00 <dlazin> duga: thus I see why the Apple/Amazon version is not a level-3 change
17:20:20 <dlazin> duga: it's a huge change. It's a brand-new type of fixed layout, which means we have to update a zillion sections in the spec.
17:20:31 <dlazin> duga: this is not a bugfix.
17:21:08 <dlazin> duga: fixed layout flowing epubs do not exist in the spec, but do exist in reality
17:21:33 <dlazin> duga: for webtoons, the whole epub is fixed layout
17:21:46 <dlazin> duga: so the benefit of using the existing property is gone
17:21:48 <LaurentLM> +1 to brady: this would not be a level 3 change
17:22:10 <dlazin> duga: so to Hadrien's point, it's a bad idea to reuse this flag just because it already exists.
17:22:10 <wendyreid> q+
17:22:51 <dlazin> duga: as wendyreid says, if you give Hadrien's epub to Google Play Books etc, it will break
17:23:15 <LaurentLM> +100 to brady
17:23:17 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
17:23:17 <dlazin> duga: and that is GOOD because it will break at ingestion and prevent users from spending $5 on a thing that the RS can't render
17:23:49 <dlazin> liisamk: what's happening in this space from a business perspective is exactly what happened with children's picture books initially
17:23:57 <dlazin> liisamk: there wasn't a way to do them in epub
17:24:13 <dlazin> liisamk: Apple found a workaround, people started making/selling them, and then we doubled back to support them officially
17:24:38 <dlazin> liisamk: what's probably happening today is people are making two files, one for one partner and one for another
17:24:43 <dlazin> liisamk: or not selling it at all
17:24:53 <Hadrien> q+
17:24:57 <duga> q+
17:25:00 <dlazin> liisamk: whether we like it or not, this is already happening, and expanding across the world quite quickly
17:25:24 <dlazin> liisamk: process question: whether you are going straight from webtoons to digital product, or introducing a print product in the middle
17:25:44 <dlazin> liisamk: some publishers are buying webtoons, breaking them up to put them on paper pages, and digital adaptation happens after that
17:26:12 <dlazin> liisamk: they want the ebook to mirror what they had on the print side
17:26:48 <dlazin> liisamk: right now that workflow is making them into regular fixed layout
17:27:01 <dlazin> liisamk: (liisamk is not saying this is a good thing, just reality)
17:27:17 <dlazin> liisamk: there is a business need to have fixed pages sometimes and flowing the rest of the time
17:27:34 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
17:27:57 <dlazin> shiestyle: I also oppose adding a third value to rendition:layout
17:28:03 <dlazin> shiestyle: this would break existing webtoons
17:28:34 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
17:28:37 <dlazin> shiestyle: if we add new metadata for webtoons, scroll-direction is enough
17:29:14 <dlazin> wendyreid: the complication is real and important
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17:29:33 <dlazin> wendyreid: but the requirement for backwards compatibility is a real bind
17:29:59 <dlazin> wendyreid: today, if I were to download a file with this new value, the worst that would happen is I would get a paginated book
17:30:13 <dlazin> wendyreid: that's not ideal, but we still want it to work even if it's not the bestest
17:30:39 <George> I would like to know more about Lisa's statement that higher education is using fixed layout. In the titltes I see, that is not the case.
17:30:55 <dlazin> wendyreid: it's great if e.g. Google breaks at ingestion, but some users are downloading epubs directly, opening them in Thorium, and will be upset if they break at that point.
17:31:30 <dlazin> wendyreid: We should better explore this mixed-experience content in future versions of epub
17:31:30 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
17:31:38 <Dale> q+
17:31:45 <dlazin> Hadrien: Mixing up a lotta different things here.
17:32:04 <liisamk> q+
17:32:24 <dlazin> Hadrien: when I hear that the content is redesigned to be paginated, and we want to allow the user to choose between paginated and scrolled, that's quite different between what we're talking about in the past with webtoons.
17:33:09 <dlazin> Hadrien: Big difference between a user preference for how you consume fixed layout vs content that will be broken if you don't force the behavior for webtoons.
17:33:30 <dlazin> Hadrien: fixed layout today is already good enough for what liisamk described.
17:33:48 <dlazin> Hadrien: Japan is not the biggest market today for webtoons.
17:34:05 <dlazin> Hadrien: in all the biggest markets, webtoons are just images in a .zip file.
17:34:30 <wendyreid> ack duga
17:34:30 <dlazin> Hadrien: the majority of the business around this is not on EPUB today (outside of Japan)
17:35:09 <dlazin> duga: like liisamk said, this is fixed layout repeating itself
17:35:25 <dlazin> duga: but we didn't just take Apple's implementation; we made it fit into the spec
17:35:52 <dlazin> duga: today, there are two ways of supporting fixed layout, Apple's way and the official way
17:36:39 <dlazin> duga: that is annoying, but we don't need to take Apple's way of doing it (specifically). We should design the best thing for the spec and if we have two varying implementations again, so be it.
17:37:10 <wendyreid> ack Dale
17:37:51 <dlazin> Dale: The web world has graceful degradatation
17:38:06 <wendyreid> q+
17:38:07 <dlazin> Dale: Edit: The web world has graceful degradation
17:38:25 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
17:38:36 <shiestyle> My slides: https://drive.google.com/file/d/14M2wO2A4nXgorKPNSFYHgnlE_a7bRUwJ/view?usp=sharing
17:38:50 <dlazin> Dale: I'm wondering if RSes see content they don't understand, do they ignore or do they just crash?
17:39:12 <dlazin> wendyreid: Most reading systems do the best they can to render.
17:39:21 <LaurentLM> q?
17:39:31 <dlazin> wendyreid: The graceful degradation principle carries over ... with some limits.
17:39:44 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
17:39:55 <dlazin> wendyreid: For example, epubcheck has some errors that will prevent bad content rather than RSes trying to render it.
17:40:12 <dlazin> liisamk: Most reading systems do not render the epub exactly as delivered.
17:40:34 <dlazin> liisamk: RSes have ingestion processes (usually) that change things -- modifying CSS, etc.
17:40:38 <Hadrien> q+
17:40:49 <dlazin> liisamk: There's a big black box of people not knowing what happens or why.
17:41:58 <dlazin> liisamk: I would like to see the publisher/author to be able to indicate a *preference* for how a book should be rendered, but give the reader control as an override.
17:42:20 <duga> q+
17:42:36 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
17:42:50 <dlazin> liisamk: Sometimes the content is optimized in a way that is not the reader's preference.
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17:43:10 <dlazin> Hadrien: Not sure it's true that *most* RSes transform input, but the biggest ones do.
17:43:24 <dlazin> Hadrien: The vast majority of (small) RSes don't change the file.
17:43:57 <dlazin> Hadrien: Flow and spread are both examples of misused features.
17:44:16 <dlazin> Hadrien: So RSes try to have sane defaults and give options back to readers.
17:44:45 <dlazin> Hadrien: These properties where we're made mistakes in the spec are almost useless, because they're not well supported.
17:45:37 <dlazin> Hadrien: Another way of consuming content is one full viewport at a time. That's not quite paginated, but it can be useful for accessibility.
17:45:49 <wendyreid> ack duga
17:46:27 <dlazin> duga: The way liisamk describes scrolled-continuous is exactly how it was intended, but it's so hard to use.
17:46:46 <liisamk> q+
17:47:28 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
17:47:28 <dlazin> duga: If it was my product, I would not bother implementing the default scrolled-continuous; it's a lot of work for a weird user experience that people will turn off.
17:48:05 <Hadrien> q+
17:48:08 <dlazin> liisamk: Many RSes take defaults that a reader sets and apply it to all content.
17:48:24 <wendyreid> q+
17:48:45 <CharlesL> q+
17:48:56 <dlazin> liisamk: This isn't really a standards question, but we should consider whether preferences should apply to all books equally.
17:48:57 <Dale> q+
17:49:07 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
17:49:13 <dlazin> liisamk: Readers don't really understand how much the RS decisions affect their reading experience.
17:49:23 <duga> +1 liisamk
17:49:51 <dlazin> Hadrien: At Readium we have preferences per publication, global preferences, and a mix: initialized with global settings with per-publication overrides.
17:50:14 <dlazin> Hadrien: Some users need that (e.g. for accessibility)
17:50:35 <CharlesL> q-
17:50:49 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
17:50:54 <dlazin> Hadrien: You don't want to have to fix typography settings on every single book you open.
17:51:02 <LaurentLM> q+
17:51:07 <dlazin> wendyreid: This is cool but we are off-topic.
17:51:21 <dlazin> wendyreid: We have been talking about webtoons in circles for a while.
17:51:27 <duga> q+
17:51:33 <dlazin> wendyreid: We don't need to make a decision today, but we should get towards one.
17:51:41 <CharlesL> +1 that was my point of view Dyslexic users will want a specific font which helps them read more efficiently same for low vision users with a specific font size etc.
17:52:10 <dlazin> wendyreid: How do we get to a path that makes sense in EPUB 3.X, and how do we fix this better in an ideal future?
17:52:17 <wendyreid> ack Dale
17:52:57 <dlazin> Dale: Question is who has control — the original designer or the reader?
17:53:10 <Hadrien> q+
17:53:27 <wendyreid> zakim, close the queue
17:53:27 <Zakim> ok, wendyreid, the speaker queue is closed
17:53:36 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
17:53:41 <dlazin> Dale: Some questions are design issues, some are accessibility issues
17:53:58 <dlazin> Dale: I would like to advocate for the perspective of the designer who is creating the book.
17:54:19 <dlazin> LaurentLM: The Apple proposal is not a level-3 change.
17:54:35 <CharlesL> q+
17:54:40 <dlazin> LaurentLM: In the previous discussion we agreed we should recharter.
17:54:52 <wendyreid> ack duga
17:54:56 <dlazin> LaurentLM: Let's do something clean in EPUB 3.4.
17:55:11 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
17:55:14 <dlazin> LaurentLM: That is, we don't need a level-3 change, and that's OK, because we're going to recharter anyway.
17:55:19 <rickj> +1 to Laurent's comment to recharter
17:55:31 <dlazin> duga: Agree; let's recharter and do something good and new.
17:55:46 <dlazin> Hadrien: Maybe in Japan, with specialized RS, the Apple way will continue to exist.
17:56:14 <dlazin> Hadrien: Maybe those RSes will have aliases from one metadata property to another.
17:56:22 <ivan> q+
17:56:34 <dlazin> Hadrien: It's not that big of an issue. It's acceptable to have two ways of specifying the metadata.
17:57:12 <dlazin> Hadrien: e.g. if you see flow:continuous-scroll plus layout:fixed, you would treat that like layout:scrolled.
17:57:27 <LaurentLM> rendition:layout = pre-paginated + rendition:flow = scrolled-continuous => rendition:layout = scrolled in EPUB 3.4
17:57:35 <dlazin> ivan: let me restate Hadrien
17:57:50 <dlazin> ivan: we define a new (thorough) approach
17:58:23 <dlazin> ivan: then we also document the practice by Apple/Amazon Japan, to indicate that that solution is still around and must be understood (aliased) in the context of our new properties
17:58:36 <dlazin> duga: we didn't do that for Apple's fixed layout
17:58:42 <dlazin> ivan: the market was smaller then!
17:58:58 <dlazin> +1 to ivan
17:59:12 <shiestyle> +1 to ivan
17:59:13 <dlazin> ivan: it doesn't cost us a penny to document the aliases
17:59:49 <davidhall> q+ :-)
18:00:03 <dlazin> ivan: there are two aspects of where we go from here: the chartering is on me
18:00:21 <dlazin> ivan: but the modification to the epub spec can continue in parallel
18:01:08 <dlazin> ivan: modifying the Reading System spec is more complex than modifying the file spec
18:04:10 <dlazin> davidhall: (complex thought about whether we need to recharter to handle Apple's current implementation, which dlazin didn't capture well)
18:04:35 <wendyreid> BREAK TIME! Re-convene in 26 minutes
18:04:57 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:04:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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18:30:05 <swjoo> present+
18:30:45 <wendyreid> Topic: Locators and Annotations
18:30:47 <davidhall> present+
18:30:57 <CharlesL> scribe+
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18:31:19 <CharlesL> wendyreid: Reminder. we are no longer thinking about the charter.
18:31:34 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: F2F agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/12a090ec-425d-4163-b14b-2fca1bb19fa4/
18:31:36 <CharlesL> ... what are the problems we are trying to solve
18:32:04 <George> present+
18:32:09 <wendyreid> https://github.com/readium/annotations
18:32:11 <CharlesL> ... things we worked on in the past. work by Readium, etc.
18:32:27 <ivan> q+
18:32:38 <CharlesL> ... location and wayfinding in EPUB and annotations is important and education use cases.
18:33:10 <CharlesL> ... there are problems with the current implementations. we do some things well every platform has implemented it differently
18:33:40 <Hadrien> q+
18:33:49 <wendyreid> zakim, open the queue
18:33:49 <Zakim> ok, wendyreid, the speaker queue is open
18:33:55 <wendyreid> q+ Hadrien
18:34:30 <CharlesL> ivan: I was part of the annotations work.  important browsers implementation. main motivation annotatins should be exchangable.
18:34:58 <CharlesL> ... data format for storage on an annotation server.
18:35:18 <CharlesL> ... details with JSON storage is beside the point.
18:36:26 <CharlesL> ... it has failed usage with web browsers. one implementation which is Hypothesis but never opened up their servers which is private.
18:36:42 <liisamk> q+
18:36:45 <rickj> q+
18:36:46 <CharlesL> ... is there a market to exchange data among Reading Systems.
18:37:00 <CharlesL> ... big question is exchange of data.
18:37:24 <CharlesL> ... make sure there is a business case first.  but would love to see this work done.
18:37:28 <wendyreid> q+
18:37:34 <dlazin> q+
18:37:48 <CharlesL> ... clear market for Webtoons there is a market need.  but for annotations I am skeptical.
18:37:49 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
18:38:02 <gautierchomel> q+
18:38:05 <CharlesL> Hadrien: important keep in mind are higher level features.
18:38:24 <CharlesL> ... need to look at what has changed.  new building blocks on the web.
18:38:38 <CharlesL> ... scroll to text fragment. implemented in Chrome
18:38:53 <CharlesL> ... there is a way now to reference text on the web without fragment IDs.
18:39:26 <CharlesL> ... we can not get accesses to that low level.  highlight interface CSS highlight
18:39:52 <wendyreid> https://wicg.github.io/scroll-to-text-fragment/#fragmentdirective
18:39:58 <CharlesL> ... we have this now available on the web.
18:40:01 <wendyreid> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-pseudo/#selectordef-target-text
18:40:14 <ivan> q+
18:40:44 <CharlesL> ... use cases - Readium we have toolkits where 100's of developers are using.  Organizations need this feature need on desktop mobile, web.
18:41:36 <CharlesL> ... if we build that into toolkits that are widely used. bloggers could use this with interoperability.
18:41:38 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
18:42:21 <dlazin> +1 to liisamk ALREADY
18:42:24 <CharlesL> liisamk: Focus on use case of reader taking their notes from one platform to another you will get pushback. wall gardens
18:42:41 <duga> q+ to talk about data export
18:42:43 <CharlesL> ... every reader want to keep their notes without fear of loosing them.
18:43:19 <CharlesL> ... author selling annotations is an interesting proposition. reading groups sharing annotations.
18:43:23 <Hadrien> +1 for archiving as well, this goes beyond publication updates, a lot of ebooks are borrowed from libraries where users lose access to the publication after 21/28 days
18:44:24 <CharlesL> ... allow users to mark things up, highlighting / need.  books get updated minor things tech fixes, author adding new content. many versions over their lifetime.
18:44:36 <George> q+
18:44:42 <wendyreid> ack rickj
18:44:50 <CharlesL> ... many updating from EPUB2-3 and adding accessibility. keep their annotations.
18:46:16 <wendyreid> qq+ ivan
18:46:23 <wendyreid> ack ivan
18:46:23 <Zakim> ivan, you wanted to react to rickj
18:46:47 <CharlesL> rickj: business case for Education with Hypothesis, professors assigning their books.  When tying a grade to reading highlighting making notes engagement increased.
18:47:16 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
18:47:18 <Dale> q+
18:47:30 <CharlesL> ... there are engagement reporting systems and this needs to be interoperable with this.
18:47:34 <George> q?
18:47:52 <rickj> q+
18:48:37 <CharlesL> wendyreid: user interest in this is gaining.  iPad / Apple pencil. writing tools, social media how they note take and process information.  huge online and engagement with technology.  Readwise
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18:49:03 <CharlesL> ... we want interoperability but would be great if they worked with other platforms.
18:49:23 <gautierchomel> q-
18:49:25 <CharlesL> rickj: we need to interoperate with Hypothesis
18:49:37 <wendyreid> ack dlazin
18:49:51 <CharlesL> ivan: since Hypothesis is a closed system.. right.
18:50:31 <LaurentLM> a closed system like Hypothesis cannot be considered a standard...
18:50:33 <CharlesL> Dan: clear business case page numbers how we use books.  We didn't reinvent the book we reinvented the scroll.
18:51:02 <LaurentLM> hypothesis may be considered a monopoly by default
18:51:06 <liisamk> q+
18:51:33 <CharlesL> ... sharing page numbers when folks are on different reading systems or if a new version comes out which changes the page numbers.  we need standardized page numbers.
18:51:50 <tzviya8> +1 to dlazin
18:51:53 <CharlesL> ... we know there is a very strong use case for page numbers.
18:52:39 <CharlesL> ... important, we don't want to have an algorithmic page numbers we need publisher defined page numbers.  great to get a consistent display of page numbers.
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18:52:44 <wendyreid> ack ivan
18:52:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-pmwg-minutes.html fantasai
18:52:54 <wendyreid> ack duga
18:52:54 <Zakim> duga, you wanted to talk about data export
18:52:54 <rickj> q-
18:53:15 <CharlesL> duga: we want to do these annotation things.. what about simple import / export?
18:53:20 <LaurentLM> q+
18:53:26 <LaurentLM> q?
18:53:43 <ivan> q+
18:54:02 <CharlesL> ... we don't have to do the centralized server.  Patrons could get their annotations.
18:54:26 <CharlesL> ... wall gardens - maybe could shame them into adoption.
18:54:48 <CharlesL> ... Microsoft would have loved to have if you could "bring your annotations with you".
18:54:48 <wendyreid> ack George
18:55:47 <Hadrien> q+
18:55:52 <CharlesL> George: reading is a very personal experience.  keep forever their annotations and bookmarks, share with children / grandchildren.  save these annotations.  Wish I had this 20 years ago.
18:55:58 <wendyreid> ack Dale
18:58:28 <wendyreid> q+
18:58:36 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
18:58:42 <CharlesL> Dale: retired as a professor using an LMS from an educators POV.  if a student sent in a grade appeal, if I had to document that, I would go into the LMS and determin how engage that student was in the class.  I would have to make sure the LMS could give a report and it could tell me if the student read a particular book / page etc.  I am not sure if I could find out a the page level in the EPUB, I heard the argument for the education use
18:58:42 <CharlesL> case, not sure an educator would want to do.
18:59:37 <CharlesL> liisamk: move towards more a11y content, a lot are including page numbers and backlists remediation does include this.  vast majority of Ebooks have real page #'s and where they were sourced from in the metadata.
19:00:45 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
19:00:45 <CharlesL> ... there are times for better reading experience you may re-order content and what should the page #'s do if the order changes.  but keeping the mirror with the print book even if it is out of order in the digital book.
19:01:07 <CharlesL> LaurentLM: Readium near prototype shared our spec.
19:01:28 <CharlesL> ... use cases are in the spec, archiving is in the spec.
19:01:50 <CharlesL> ... audio books and web publications.  first use case is import / exporting annotations or sets.
19:02:00 <tzviya8> Readium document https://github.com/readium/annotations
19:02:03 <CharlesL> ... EPUB is the only format we are thinking for annotations.
19:02:37 <CharlesL> ... we are not planning on pushing to a server, there is Hypothesis for that.
19:02:57 <wendyreid> q?
19:03:00 <CharlesL> ... please comment in Github.  in a few months we will have a prototype to demo.
19:03:01 <wendyreid> ack ivan
19:03:34 <CharlesL> ivan: we would have to justify why we want to do this work..  AC would be asking so this is good.
19:04:41 <CharlesL> ... important to remember the standard we would adapt and what Readium has done. not the UX experience that is outside of this.  export/import or on a server.  we must keep in mind to define a format that can be exchange.
19:05:31 <CharlesL> ... other part that is important terminology "selector" / locator generalization of page numbering.  how to hook an annotation in the content.
19:05:48 <CharlesL> ... usage of selectors go beyond annotations.
19:06:29 <CharlesL> ... question: annotations standard for EPUB the standard does not modify the EPUB 3.3 itself.
19:06:55 <CharlesL> ... the Readium maybe storing an annotation within an EPUB.
19:07:16 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
19:08:34 <fantasai> Saw someone drop a link to ::target-text earlier; here's a few related items:
19:08:43 <fantasai> -> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/URI/Fragment/Text_fragments
19:09:01 <fantasai> -> https://wicg.github.io/scroll-to-text-fragment/
19:09:01 <CharlesL> Hadrien: Archiving - ownership is less common, we are given temp access. different reading env. some you may loose access to it.  you may get subscription platforms but bringing that into another platform when I am no longer a student etc.  archival is very important and should be the core of how we think about this.
19:09:57 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
19:09:58 <CharlesL> ... selector we choose will be important for archival.  less brittle (CFI will break if you update anything)
19:10:15 <George> +1 to Hadrien  archive  and personal bookmarks and annotations
19:10:27 <CharlesL> wendyreid: I am a student now and this is very frustrating.
19:11:22 <CharlesL> ... locators: this is essential. most books are not coming in page numbers. we can not self publishers, they are using services.  massive part of the EPUB market.
19:11:41 <CharlesL> ... we need to be mindful of that, as the maintainer of the standard.
19:11:41 <liisamk> I can show you all of the ways they are different...
19:12:04 <duga> q+
19:12:08 <George> q+CharlesL:
19:12:17 <CharlesL> ... lot of interest in text fragments, perhaps supporting multiple
19:12:26 <wendyreid> ack duga
19:13:21 <CharlesL> duga: CFI's are easy to make and define.  there are copy quota and you may try to annotate every work and steal it.  that is a concern.
19:13:25 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
19:13:26 <ivan> q+
19:14:04 <Hadrien> copy quota are already dead with the ability to extract arbitrary text from any screen/screenshot/photo on mobile
19:14:56 <Dale> q+
19:14:56 <wendyreid> ack ivan
19:14:56 <duga> s/CFI's are easy to make/CFI's are hard to make/
19:15:00 <Hadrien> I know at least 5 different ways built-into the platform to circumvent copy quota on Android for example
19:15:05 <CharlesL> George: EBSCO for their patrons is absolutely essential.  if they don't have page numbers they must us an algorithm so that they distribute with page numbers.  we need a way to standardize this or all citations will be a major problem.  great if we could standardize this.
19:16:24 <CharlesL> ivan: rechartering - annotations becomes a separate document along side the others. we have to do a rechartering with a new deliverable.  We have no choice.
19:16:56 <wendyreid> ack Dale
19:17:02 <CharlesL> ... does the WG agrees that annotation should be a separate document and not just tacked onto EPUB spec?
19:17:11 <mgarrish> q+
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19:17:36 <Hadrien> +1 for a separate document
19:17:37 <rickj> q+
19:18:31 <CharlesL> Dale: I like the idea of it being a separate document.  finished a 3 year program some had print, digital, reading EPUBs on laptops, PDA's etc.  getting to a particular page was just about impossible.  We would say go to first chapter 3rd paragraph 2nd sentence is what we had to revert to.
19:18:56 <CharlesL> ... if the DOM could take care of tracking things vs the Reading System.
19:19:12 <wendyreid> zakim, close the queue
19:19:12 <Zakim> ok, wendyreid, the speaker queue is closed
19:19:31 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
19:19:39 <CharlesL> ... I am an independent author as well, so I would just update changes when I need to make a change then the DOM may be updated as a result.
19:20:18 <CharlesL> mgarrish: the authoring / rendering (this is not a core authoring / rendering) but more of a satellite spec.
19:20:24 <wendyreid> ack rickj
19:20:35 <CharlesL> rickj: Matt just answered my question.  I agree.
19:20:43 <George> annotations, locators, and get citation in scope.
19:21:00 <CharlesL> wendyreid: we would have to decide if this is a NOTE vs a Rec Track doc.
19:21:50 <CharlesL> Phillip: are you thinking of creating a new metadata vocab?
19:22:16 <CharlesL> ivan: No, we may need to extend the annotation web spec.
19:23:13 <CharlesL> Phillip: charter ends next year, and you don't have to wait.  the charter doesn't care if its a separate document or not just depends on if it is in scope or not.
19:23:48 <CharlesL> fantasai: don't try to put technologies specs in.
19:24:02 <CharlesL> wendyreid: we also need testing included.
19:24:04 <fantasai> s/in/in NOTEs. They belong on REC track, for IPR reasons and Process/
19:24:12 <fantasai> Topic: CSSWG Update
19:25:05 <CharlesL> fantasai: invite you all css support for layout please see us. to help with internationalization, if you need more CSS abilities please come talk to us.
19:25:22 <fantasai> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-inline-3/
19:25:26 <fantasai> -> https://atypi.org/presentation/precise-text-alignment-in-css/
19:25:28 <CharlesL> ... working on spacing of text line to line, sizing text in more precise ways. inline layout spec.
19:25:49 <CharlesL> ... adding this box can be sized based on certain size metrics.
19:26:09 <CharlesL> ... top of some text and an adjacent images etc.  so this will help with that.
19:26:09 <fantasai> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-inline-3/#leading-trim
19:26:42 <fantasai> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-inline-3/#text-edges
19:26:44 <CharlesL> ... related features line heights are calculated.
19:27:06 <wendyreid> zakim, open the queue
19:27:06 <Zakim> ok, wendyreid, the speaker queue is open
19:27:13 <CharlesL> ... we would love to have more feedback from publishers.
19:27:32 <fantasai> -> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Acss-inline-3
19:27:33 <CharlesL> duga: you don't need to be part of the CSS WG to comment?
19:27:44 <CharlesL> fantasai: correct all welcome to comment.
19:28:12 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:28:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
19:28:19 <CharlesL> wendyreid: we will break for an hour.
19:28:19 <fantasai> s/css support for layout/need css support for improved layout etc./
19:29:01 <wendyreid> LUNCH TIME - be back in an hour
19:29:20 <fantasai> s/to help with internationalization,/During EPUP3.0 development we had a great collaboration with EPUB folks that really improved internationalization for both CSS and EPUB; so/
19:29:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-pmwg-minutes.html fantasai
19:30:15 <fantasai> s/you all need/if you all need/
19:30:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-pmwg-minutes.html fantasai
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20:30:53 <gpellegrino> present+
20:30:57 <davidhall> present+
20:31:51 <wendyreid> Topic: Legislation and Accessibility
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20:32:48 <duga> scribe+
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20:33:11 <duga> wendyreid: For this session,  talking about upcoming worldwide legistlation
20:33:12 <George> George has joined #pmwg
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20:33:21 <duga> ... particularly EU A11y act
20:33:33 <duga> ... particularly what is remaining?
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20:33:48 <duga> ... Also some changes to US Title 2
20:34:08 <duga> ... What impacts does that have to publishing?
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20:34:20 <duga> ... And if anyone knows anything about other laws
20:34:20 <dlazin> "international people"
20:34:32 <duga> ... Start with EAA - what is left?
20:34:35 <George> present+
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20:34:58 <duga> gpellegrino: I have a brief overview of the last year for EAA
20:35:32 <duga> ... EAA requires a11y for different types of products and services
20:35:44 <duga> ... Coming in June 2025, so about 9 months out
20:36:07 <duga> ... Includes ebooks, reading apps, toolchains, etc
20:36:25 <duga> ... I am not a lawyer, please refer to one if you need to!
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20:36:55 <duga> ... All ecommerce has to be accessible, as well as banks and other services
20:37:06 <Daihei> present+
20:37:26 <duga> ... Europe is using the latest version of web accessibility (2.0?)
20:38:15 <duga> ... We have shown to the European commision that we are already in compliance with the laws, via our accessibility specs
20:39:11 <duga> ... There is a note that has a mapping for a11y, and udated epub a11y to put it in line with the European requirements
20:39:39 <duga> ... Specifically, epub a11y references WCAG 2.0 level A
20:40:04 <duga> ... WCAG 2.0 Level A is not sufficient, as is clear from the mapping
20:40:34 <duga> ... There was some issues with DRM which are being discussed
20:40:49 <duga> ... finally EPUB fixed layout is the last problem.
20:41:15 <duga> ... The user must be allowed to change all text properties (line height, font, etc)
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20:41:44 <duga> ... Some types of publications may not allow these types of format changes (e.g. comics)
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20:42:02 <duga> ... But that is why we think exploring a11y in fixed layout is very important
20:42:34 <ivan> q+
20:42:38 <duga> ... Last TPAC we delayed ISO transition until after EAA
20:42:45 <wendyreid> ack fantasai
20:42:48 <wendyreid> ack ivan
20:42:56 <duga> ... as such we ask that we delay ISO until after June 2025
20:43:41 <gpellegrino> q+cristina
20:43:46 <wendyreid> ack cris
20:43:48 <duga> ivan: Where are we on discussions with the European Commission? Is the danger of being sidelined still there?
20:44:25 <duga> christina: We are on a good track, there is a new meeting this week, they are willing to start the delegate access for this.
20:44:40 <duga> ... So we will have an answer soon
20:45:06 <duga> wendyreid: What is the issue with ISO?
20:45:22 <duga> ... delay isn't a problem, but why do we need to delay?
20:46:03 <duga> christina: Because the relationship between international and European standard is tricky, so we want to leave the choice to the commission right now
20:46:28 <CharlesL> q+
20:46:29 <duga> ... They need to make a petition to the EU standards body, and if the is an ISO standard that is confusing
20:46:44 <duga> ... So it will take time.
20:47:18 <duga> George: If there is an ISO standard it must be harmonized, but W3C standards are easier
20:47:28 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
20:47:59 <duga> CharlesL: We also published a note on the exceptions, so those need to be harmonized.
20:48:18 <ivan> q+
20:48:25 <wendyreid> ack ivan
20:49:11 <rickj> Link to the 'note on exceptions' that Charles mentioned?
20:49:12 <duga> ivan: Another practical Q - first a quick summary of this mornings session
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20:49:44 <AvneeshSingh> q+
20:49:44 <duga> ... Are we under any obligation to extend a11y to annotations? Is that a problem in the EU?
20:50:15 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
20:50:18 <duga> christina: Thinking aloud - I never thought about it in this light. If they are part of a reading solution, then I think they may be included
20:50:31 <duga> ... maybe leave as is and go back later
20:50:47 <gpellegrino> +1 to Avneesh
20:50:51 <wendyreid> q+
20:51:00 <duga> AvneeshSingh: I don't think annotations matter. The mapping we did has no need for annotations. So I think we are ok
20:51:09 <duga> gpellegrino: +1
20:51:29 <duga> ... We don't have in the requirements for the EAA specific requirements for annotations so we are ok
20:52:03 <duga> ... But the Reading System must be in accessible
20:52:05 <duga> q+
20:52:06 <gpellegrino> q+
20:52:13 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
20:52:20 <duga> ivan: How does this relate to the exception for fixed layout?
20:52:32 <Hadrien> q+
20:52:36 <duga> wendyreid: Which of the documents will they recommend?
20:53:20 <duga> ... If it is just a11y 3.1 then that is fine, but if it is the epub docs then do we have to worry about changes we will make
20:53:31 <duga> christina: No, I think we will be ok with epub changes
20:53:45 <wendyreid> ack duga
20:54:05 <wendyreid> duga: Ivan, you said the exception was for fixed layout, it's for comic books, right?
20:54:06 <ivan> s/a11y 3.1/a11y 1.1/
20:54:32 <wendyreid> ... some comics reflow, and fixed layout is not a thing in the spec
20:55:04 <wendyreid> cristina: The act requires accessibility, but within the limits of the publication, not compelled to make all comics accessible if its not possible
20:55:40 <mgarrish> q+
20:55:49 <davidhall> q+
20:56:02 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
20:56:11 <gpellegrino> Specific features of special volumes like comics, children’s books and art books should be considered in the light of all applicable accessibility requirements.
20:56:27 <duga> gpellegrino: Adding some quotes from the act
20:56:34 <wendyreid> qq+
20:57:07 <wendyreid> q-
20:57:11 <duga> ... about fixed layout, it is an interesting challenge to find an accessible version of fixed layout
20:57:13 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
20:57:28 <duga> Hadrien: Coming back to comics, it seems like an unknown quantity
20:58:02 <duga> ... This will act will become local law, with regulators, so it is still unclear exactly what will happen with these publications
20:58:26 <duga> ... but fixed layout as it is today is not enough to meet the requirements
20:58:38 <duga> ... The biggest is the ability to change text property
20:58:52 <duga> ... maybe we can extract text and maintain the order of words
20:58:57 <wendyreid> q+
20:59:25 <duga> ... But comics are different, since the text is often in the image
20:59:42 <duga> ... could provide a script of the page, but that has limitations
21:00:06 <duga> ... But even that is hard since reading progression may jump around pages
21:00:26 <duga> ... we may need a fragment based approach instead of resouce based, similar to SMIL
21:00:34 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
21:00:40 <duga> ... Would require some extensions or a new format
21:01:01 <duga> mgarrish: Back to annotations, I think it will depend how they are expressed
21:01:10 <duga> ... e.g. if they are HTML, then that covers it
21:01:39 <duga> ... But it may depend on where they came from (e.g. for sale by publisher vs reading group sharing)
21:01:43 <wendyreid> ack davidhall
21:01:54 <duga> davidhall: Some comments on comics
21:02:31 <duga> ... the statement about what is possible, it might be possible to extract and read text from images, so will regulators require that if it is possible?
21:02:38 <davidhall> https://idpf.org/epub/renditions/region-nav/
21:02:43 <Hadrien> q+
21:02:46 <liisamk> q+
21:02:53 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
21:02:54 <duga> ... and then there is region based nav, has that come up
21:02:55 <duga> q+
21:03:13 <duga> wendyreid: We never talk about fixed layout with region based nav coming uo
21:03:14 <ikkwong> q+
21:03:30 <duga> ... example of a good idea that never really made it
21:03:45 <duga> ... The fixed layout group discussed complex content a lot
21:04:21 <ikkwong> +1 to wendyreid
21:04:22 <duga> ... Sometimes knowing where the text is is just as important as knowing what it says
21:04:23 <ikkwong> q-
21:04:31 <duga> ... we still don't know what the best solution is
21:04:54 <duga> ... we do want to incubate on it
21:04:59 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
21:05:10 <duga> Hadrien: I think region based is interesting, but not enough
21:05:34 <duga> ... it works across fragments
21:05:47 <duga> ... but can't map back to content of the speech bubble
21:06:25 <duga> ... when it comes to what can be done on device, it's a good point
21:06:32 <Dale> q+
21:06:52 <duga> ... sometimes we can detect panels, etc
21:07:25 <duga> ... I have made an accessible comic that shows some of these things
21:07:30 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
21:07:51 <duga> liisamk: I would note that there is one large implementation of region based nav
21:07:55 <duga> .... comixology uses it
21:08:00 <wendyreid> ack duga
21:08:21 <wendyreid> duga: The other not-exactly region-based nav is google books' bubble detection
21:08:35 <wendyreid> ... good for highlighting parts of the page, but it is lacking parts like text
21:08:48 <wendyreid> ... what can be done on the device? But also a worrying question about what the EU can ask
21:09:16 <davidhall> +1 duga
21:09:27 <wendyreid> ... if apple intelligence can read out the page and describe it, will it be an expectation, if it's not a native capability of the reading sytem, you're in trouble
21:09:33 <gpellegrino> #notALayer
21:10:01 <duga> christina: It is a tricky answer, but the commision is the first time we are making it possible for everyone to do the same thing
21:10:35 <duga> ... if you look at the list of possible examples, that will evolve. It just isn't possible to cover everything
21:10:46 <duga> ... so all we can is monitor what is going on
21:11:04 <duga> ... and then go back to the commission
21:11:37 <wendyreid> ack Dale
21:11:40 <duga> ... we can only get to a stable place and then adapt as time goes on
21:12:07 <duga> Dale: I just published a comic as an ebook, and wanted to figure out how to make it as accessible as possible
21:12:22 <duga> ... so I got into an argument with ChatGPT with the best way to present this
21:12:38 <gpellegrino> q+ to ask about ADA
21:13:09 <duga> ... I ended up taking the image, sent it to chat gpt, and said "please describe it". I got back a very good response
21:13:35 <duga> ... I was able to use a lot of that text in the alt text for the image, enough for the reader to follow along
21:13:45 <duga> ... what I want to know is, is that enough?
21:13:47 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
21:13:48 <Zakim> gpellegrino, you wanted to ask about ADA
21:14:07 <duga> gpellegrino: Maybe we should move to ADA Title 2
21:14:24 <duga> ... the approach to EAA with the mapping seems like a good approach
21:14:27 <tzviya8> +1 to ADA time
21:14:29 <George> I think that is a good start!!!
21:14:34 <duga> ... it seems to have good results
21:14:40 <duga> ... any thoughts on that?
21:14:42 <rickj> q+
21:14:59 <duga> wendyreid: as I understand the goal is to use WCAG 2.1 level AA
21:15:06 <duga> ... so we are pretty good already
21:15:21 <tzviya8> q+ to mention scholarly
21:15:24 <wendyreid> ack rickj
21:15:26 <duga> ... Currently this is education, but it may be to Title 3 which includes business
21:15:36 <George> A bill has been introduced for Title 3.
21:15:55 <duga> rickj: The discussions I have had is the Title 2 change is very similar to EAA
21:15:59 <CharlesL> q+
21:16:03 <wendyreid> ack tzviya8
21:16:06 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
21:16:06 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to mention scholarly
21:16:10 <duga> ... main difference is the stick associated with Title 2
21:16:12 <George> q+
21:16:35 <duga> tzviya8: Education hits a lot, eg a journal in a school is educational
21:16:47 <duga> ... So they may have trouble (or maybe not)
21:16:50 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
21:16:56 <duga> ... Just a new segment exposed to ADA
21:17:11 <duga> CharlesL: Some districts aren't sure if Title 2 impacts them
21:17:28 <duga> ... something to do with the size of the district
21:17:39 <duga> ... So it is 2 vs 3 years
21:17:56 <duga> ... It's not the district count, but rather the area, so it is confusing
21:18:22 <wendyreid> ack George
21:18:27 <duga> ... But budgets happen in Sept., so a lot of districts are going to have trouble
21:18:49 <duga> George: At least we have clarity on the backlist, which is explicitly included in Title 2
21:19:36 <duga> rickj: While there may be small districts with an extra year, the suppliers will all be impacted earlier
21:19:43 <duga> ... since they sell to all districts
21:19:55 <duga> wendyreid: Is there anything we need to do to support anyone?
21:20:23 <liisamk> q+
21:20:26 <duga> rickj: We are the publishing working group, what about pdf?
21:20:28 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
21:20:39 <duga> ... it feels like we should help people with that
21:20:48 <dlazin> I have to go pick up a kiddo, so goodbye for a while! See you in a couple weeks, I think?
21:20:58 <duga> liisamk: If we go down the PDF road we have to look at their a11y
21:20:59 <tzviya8> q+ to aria pdf
21:21:09 <duga> ... having looked at it there is a lot of weird stuff
21:21:19 <duga> ... alt text isn't consistent, etc
21:21:20 <AvneeshSingh> q+
21:21:34 <George> q+
21:21:38 <wendyreid> ack tzviya8
21:21:41 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
21:21:41 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to aria pdf
21:21:58 <duga> tzviya8: I don't know how far down the PDF hole we can go
21:22:10 <duga> ... But ARIA WG is looking at working on this
21:22:32 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
21:22:53 <George> q?
21:22:59 <duga> AvneeshSingh: Touching on pdf - we have been discussing the metadata requirement in the wg
21:23:02 <George> q-
21:23:02 <duga> s/wg/cg/
21:23:36 <duga> ... A lot comes from onix, but we should bring in some pdf people to discuss
21:23:49 <duga> ... so we will learn more from the pdf peope
21:24:32 <duga> ... We should discuss what adopting some wcag versions would have internationally (in the cg)
21:24:49 <ivan> q+
21:24:53 <wendyreid> ack ivan
21:24:57 <duga> wendyreid: we have some incubation work and some discussion work - anything else we need to know about?
21:25:34 <duga> ivan: I was wondering if the doc we made for the EAA would help for Title 2 as well?
21:25:55 <duga> wendyreid: To rephrase, the EAA and epub a11y was done for the commission
21:25:56 <rickj> q+
21:26:02 <George> Zakim: q+
21:26:06 <duga> ... so they understood how we fit in their framework
21:26:17 <duga> ... I don't think this is the same for title 2
21:26:35 <wendyreid> ack rickj
21:26:42 <wendyreid> q+ George
21:27:06 <wendyreid> ack George
21:27:09 <duga> rickj: I think you are right - title 2 has been around forever, it is just newly interpreted
21:27:26 <CharlesL> q+
21:27:35 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
21:27:40 <duga> George: When a publisher with an epub that hits wcag AA they will be in great shape (assumign they are telling the truth)
21:28:24 <duga> CharlesL: Benetech has been a leader in certifying people
21:28:37 <George> q+
21:28:44 <wendyreid> ack George
21:28:46 <duga> ... So we are really far along with 3rd party certs for title 2
21:29:00 <duga> George: K-12 is not as solid as higher ed
21:29:12 <duga> ... still a lot of work there
21:29:17 <duga> ... and I am really concerned with reading systems
21:29:33 <Dale> q+
21:29:39 <duga> ... we don't see it as much with publisher reading systems embedded in the LMSes
21:29:47 <wendyreid> ack Dale
21:29:51 <duga> ... we have also not been able to connect with libraries
21:30:06 <duga> ... so very big open question
21:30:22 <duga> Dale: so if we run it through ACE ...
21:30:25 <duga> George: No
21:31:04 <duga> ... If you use ACE with Smart and the KB, then that is the right thing
21:31:48 <duga> ... so GCA and LIA and MATT (err.... Matt?) [something something - maybe acronyms or names]
21:32:38 <duga> CharlesL: Things about SMART and WCAG and other things and it grabs it and puts it in the places
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21:51:35 <wendyreid> Topic: Audiobooks Accessibility, TTS
21:51:41 <wendyreid> scribe+ rickj
21:51:44 <George> present+
21:51:44 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:51:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
21:52:19 <rickj> wendyreid: 2 parts to this session.  May not need to talk about the second
21:52:45 <rickj> …audiobook spec has a11y section, was not extensive
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21:53:14 <rickj> …recent talk in the industry around audiobook a11y…we have no place to send them
21:53:56 <rickj> …some research going on (Canada)…do we want to take up the task of writing an equivalent audiobook spec like EPUB for a11y
21:54:12 <Hadrien> q+
21:54:16 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
21:54:19 <rickj> …audiobooks may get pulled into legislative scope
21:54:41 <mgarrish> q+
21:54:43 <rickj> Hadrien: DAISY items missing from current audiobook spec
21:55:13 <rickj> …navigation missing for atomic levels, jump ahead/back, etc.
21:55:32 <rickj> …ability to sync text/audio in EPUB, but missing that when primary resource is audio
21:56:05 <rickj> …if this is important, we need the ability to make a fragment correspond to an audio section
21:56:10 <wendyreid> q+
21:56:20 <rickj> …new things for group to discuss... if we want to
21:56:25 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
21:56:29 <AvneeshSingh> q+
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21:56:54 <rickj> matt: touched on this a bit in the EPUB spec…possible opening there to address it
21:57:19 <ivan> q+
21:57:28 <rickj> …this could be a new standard (not harmonized with existing) and may need a wider group to be involved
21:57:38 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
21:58:17 <rickj> Wendy: DAISY mentioned…hard part is audiobook spec was targeted at commercial market, not the a11y market
21:58:37 <ivan> q-
21:58:45 <George> q+
21:58:48 <rickj> …may need new tools (or change how copyright works!) for production of audio content (rights issues/legal issues)
21:59:26 <CharlesL> q+
21:59:40 <rickj> …similar problem to FXL … cannot solve all a11y issues…can solve many of the issues, however
22:00:07 <rickj> …TOC, image descriptions, including all parts of the book (footnotes, index, ...)…
22:00:18 <liisamk> q+
22:00:27 <rickj> …DAISY is the gold standard, can we find something commercially viable that we can do
22:00:27 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
22:00:44 <George> q?
22:00:46 <rickj> AvneeshSingh: audio books seen as a downgrade from the DAISY standard
22:01:50 <rickj> …EPUB a11y work started in 2014, standard from IDPF, in 3.0 work need for something to be done was recognized
22:02:18 <rickj> …needed a structure to support the industry. ACE/SMART/Knowledge base came into being… adoption happened
22:02:43 <Hadrien> q+
22:03:01 <rickj> …on audiobook side still needs to gain some traction … Thorium implementing some solution, similar to spec,
22:03:10 <rickj> …do we need to change the spec to increase adoption?
22:03:21 <rickj> …where to put our resources?
22:03:43 <wendyreid> ack George
22:04:08 <rickj> George: The audiobooks are accessible, not usable (as a list of MP3 files)… downgrade from DAISY
22:04:29 <rickj> …could add TOC, etc.… not sure what the appetite of the industry is to do the work
22:05:18 <rickj> …most DAISY books have full book, but not text
22:05:41 <rickj> …with DAISY the primary media is the audio, as opposed to media overlays where audio is supplemental to primary text
22:05:52 <liisamk> q-
22:06:00 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
22:06:23 <rickj> CharlesL: without TOC for audiobooks, issues with WCAG in general.  Can't skip.
22:06:47 <rickj> …with text transcription also need sign language for deaf
22:06:54 <rickj> …big rabbit hole
22:07:05 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
22:07:22 <rickj> Hadrien: need to separate interchange format from end user format
22:07:39 <rickj> …EPUB tries to do both… current spec 'feels like' both
22:08:22 <Dale> q+
22:08:26 <rickj> …Readium work on end user part, seen adoption in library space, good traction
22:08:48 <rickj> …Audiobook is a resource based format.  DAISY is a fragment based format
22:09:05 <rickj> …trying to bridge that gap in Readium toolkits
22:09:35 <rickj> …getting to a point to have fragment based approach along side of resource based approach
22:09:50 <rickj> …in comics: page based format along side of panel by panel
22:09:59 <rickj> …we need to do the same thing with audio
22:10:07 <wendyreid> ack Dale
22:10:22 <wendyreid> q+
22:10:30 <rickj> Dale: thinks of audiobook like MP3 file, no interactive elements
22:11:01 <rickj> …on Youtube can get audio with links to time signatures, takes me to a chapter, buttons with CC information.
22:11:12 <rickj> …is this what people want to interact with audio content?
22:11:18 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
22:11:31 <tzviya8> q+ to stop aiming for perfection
22:11:46 <rickj> wendyreid: Avvneesh asked a good question: Do we have the bandwidth?
22:11:57 <rickj> … however, this is a question being asked by the publishing industry
22:12:18 <ivan> q+
22:12:19 <rickj> …issues with using DAISY, want another solution/do better
22:12:32 <rickj> …on the display side, we want to do better, better affordances
22:12:55 <rickj> …RS can do this, but need some information from the file for interchange/delivery
22:13:01 <mgarrish> q+
22:13:21 <George> q+
22:13:26 <rickj> …we could make more usable than they currently are.  No consistency or guidance for publishers who want to do better
22:13:28 <wendyreid> ack tzviya8
22:13:31 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
22:13:31 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to stop aiming for perfection
22:13:55 <rickj> tzviya8: If we strive too hard for perfection, we will never get there
22:14:09 <rickj> …there is demand for a solution here (real demand from publishers)
22:14:28 <rickj> …we have to figure out the priorities, and how to implement
22:14:28 <wendyreid> ack ivan
22:14:52 <rickj> Ivan: the audiobook standard we published has not been a success
22:15:06 <rickj> …question: Because it is not accessible? or other reasons?
22:15:22 <liisamk> q+
22:15:27 <rickj> …if a11y, then if we add features... hope of success?
22:15:43 <rickj> …if not... then, is this a standard that has not made is.  Put in more time/energy?
22:15:45 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
22:15:52 <rickj> s/is/it
22:16:01 <George> q?
22:16:17 <rickj> matt: can we make a mapping of what improvements we can do?
22:16:19 <duga> q+
22:16:39 <wendyreid> ack George
22:16:54 <Dale> q+
22:17:06 <rickj> George: having worked with audiobook publishers… they are audio people… don't understand markup
22:17:15 <rickj> …would be happy to embrace a standard
22:17:37 <rickj> …would be happy with an equivalent of an opf file
22:17:52 <rickj> …automate ingestion
22:18:12 <rickj> …pubs would need a tool to help produce this?  [tooling questions]
22:18:31 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
22:18:49 <rickj> liisamk: part of our issues with the success of this spec was timing
22:19:12 <rickj> …serious problem as the audiobook world was expanding to get information to various parts
22:19:27 <rickj> …spec came as other people had solved some of this stuff
22:19:54 <rickj> …i.e. send a package of tracks, with an excel doc, that gave you the information needed
22:20:19 <rickj> …tooling was figured out for specific differences in needs
22:20:54 <wendyreid> ack duga
22:20:56 <rickj> …we need to help them solve a problem they have, but awareness of the problem may not be big enough
22:21:19 <rickj> Brady: it may be why it failed, but it still failed.  Spend more time working on it?
22:21:40 <rickj> …does the EAA apply?  No.  Can we force that?  :-)
22:21:40 <wendyreid> ack Dale
22:22:05 <rickj> dale: audio books purchased to listen where they cannot read
22:22:24 <rickj> …Alexa example of audio 'interaction' rather than a spec
22:22:53 <rickj> …does this align with the same needs here for interactive elements?
22:23:20 <George> q+
22:23:40 <rickj> agenda: Text to Speech
22:23:58 <rickj> wendyreid: a requirement of EAA
22:24:01 <ivan> s/agenda:/topic:/
22:24:13 <rickj> …no clarity on what is required
22:24:21 <liisamk> q+
22:24:34 <ivan> q+
22:24:39 <wendyreid> ack George
22:24:41 <rickj> …do we need [not] a standard, but best practices?
22:24:47 <Hadrien> q+
22:24:50 <janina1> q+
22:25:05 <rickj> George: the quality of TTS engines are surpassing existing.
22:25:23 <rickj> …if you have the text, you can use these engines to generate the audiobook
22:26:06 <rickj> …features need to be identified.  epubtest.org has test book for read aloud.  basis for RS implementation/testing
22:26:23 <rickj> …more could be done/added to test book, but don't see support for it in current implementations
22:26:57 <rickj> …reading alt-text, reading math, TTS speed controls, all needed
22:27:02 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
22:27:32 <duga> scribe+
22:28:10 <duga> liisamk: To George's point, many leave out img alt text (or even mention an image), many have no speed control, no structural info, etc
22:28:26 <wendyreid> ack ivan
22:28:34 <duga> ... It would be good to add some notes to this so the information will be properly used
22:28:36 <tzviya8> q+ to ask if a11y issues are EPUB or DOM
22:28:41 <CharlesL> +1 to Liisa's comments
22:28:55 <duga> ivan: I don't understand the question. TTS exists outside of this group
22:29:04 <duga> ... so it not in scope to work on TTS
22:29:08 <AvneeshSingh> q?
22:29:25 <duga> ... these are all real problems, but they are relevant to TTS engines, not us
22:29:27 <CharlesL> q+
22:29:29 <George> q+
22:29:30 <duga> q+
22:29:40 <duga> ... what are we supposed to do?
22:30:01 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
22:30:05 <duga> wendyreid: We are on the front lines, what we do impacts everyone who uses TTS
22:30:13 <duga> Hadrien: it's a complex topic
22:30:26 <duga> ... there are a few things that push this forward
22:30:55 <duga> ... So two things pushing this forward, both EAA and also audiobook generation
22:31:08 <duga> q-
22:31:18 <duga> ... nothing about read aloud is well documented today
22:31:20 <duga> q+
22:31:54 <duga> ... e.g. want text and structure, but not sure if we should use html structure, or epub stuff, etc
22:32:07 <duga> ... For instance, what should I say about chapters
22:32:26 <duga> ... for some implementations we are limited by web tech
22:32:28 <George> q-
22:32:36 <duga> ... which can be a bit of a mess
22:33:18 <wendyreid> https://w3.org/TR/spoken-html
22:33:25 <duga> ... We have SSML  etc that can't really work with the speech generation (e.g. SSML says use a "male" voice, but that isn't exposed)
22:33:27 <wendyreid> ack janina
22:33:37 <shiestyle> q+
22:33:43 <rickj> ??: APA has been trying to crack this nut for a while
22:34:03 <wendyreid> s/??/janina/
22:34:10 <rickj> scribe+
22:34:27 <rickj> …CSS meeting - invitation to join to discuss this
22:35:24 <rickj> …problem at root is no 1 engine for reliable output the same across platforms
22:35:30 <rickj> …trying to get on top of that
22:35:42 <wendyreid> qq+
22:36:08 <rickj> …lots has gone on, details available to forward if interested
22:36:10 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
22:36:10 <Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to react to janina
22:36:17 <duga> q-
22:36:39 <rickj> wendyreid: work happening in SSML, CSS speech (link above to spoken-html)
22:37:01 <rickj> …not trying to tackle those problem - but rather what gets read in the first place
22:37:34 <rickj> …is all potential content (lists, image desc, etc.) being read from the EPUB?
22:37:59 <rickj> …different implementations in different reading systems.  No standards for users
22:38:12 <rickj> …no best practice to give guidance
22:38:28 <wendyreid> ack tzviya8
22:38:32 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
22:38:32 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if a11y issues are EPUB or DOM
22:38:51 <rickj> tzviya8: are we reinventing the wheel?  Does ARIA doe this?
22:39:11 <rickj> …all the information is there.  AT typically offers options to the reader (toggle on/off, etc)
22:39:55 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
22:39:57 <rickj> …is this just HTML and ARIA?
22:40:39 <rickj> CharlesL: we have guidelines/recommendations to give to publishers for the correct markup such that RS can take advantage of TTS better
22:41:00 <rickj> …worked with Apple to get DPUB-ARIA roles prioritized
22:41:01 <AvneeshSingh> q?
22:41:16 <rickj> …what is important/ not important and not spoken
22:41:32 <rickj> …guidelines for RS to implement read-aloud
22:41:45 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
22:42:03 <rickj> shy: Japanese text has ruby
22:42:13 <wendyreid> s/shy/shiestyle/
22:42:34 <Makoto1> See https://w3c.github.io/ruby-t2s-req/
22:42:45 <Makoto1> +q
22:43:14 <wendyreid> ack Makoto
22:43:45 <rickj> Makoto1: draft of technical note about ruby (link following)
22:43:56 <rickj> (link above)
22:44:28 <Hadrien> q+
22:44:29 <rickj> wendyreid: not all our responsibility.  Impacts EPUB, but we need to reach out to APA, ARIA, others to work on together
22:44:46 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
22:45:08 <rickj> Hadrien: massive topic to cover it all.  Work on voice selection.  Extracting semantic text into SSML next
22:45:27 <rickj> …talkign to specialized library org's is a good approach
22:45:35 <rickj> s/talkign/talking
22:45:57 <rickj> …wants to establish baseline of what we can do
22:46:04 <Makoto1> ISO!
22:46:05 <rickj> wendyreid: topic: AOB
22:46:34 <Makoto1> In my understanding, last year, this group decided to submit EPUB 3.3, EPUB RS 3.3, and EPUB Accessibility 1.1 to ISO/IEC through the PAS process. However, because W3C ran into procedural issues with the PAS submission of WCAG 2.2, our PAS submission was also delayed.
22:46:34 <Makoto1> Fortunately, Daniel Montalvo Charameli from the W3C team has completed the consultation with the ISO Central Secretariat regarding the PAS submission of WCAG 2.2. A few comments from ISO/CS have already been addressed, so we can likely apply the same approach for our PAS submission.
22:47:00 <rickj> …for ISO, pushing again since the EAA deadline need to pass before we can do anything so we do not disrupt the process
22:47:47 <rickj> … WCAG has a harmonized standard.  EPUB does not.
22:48:01 <rickj> George: Europe has harmonized standard for WCAG
22:48:16 <rickj> … when we submit WCAG to ISO, they already have the harmonized standard in EAA
22:48:41 <rickj> …if we submit the EPUB A11y spec to ISO, it would trigger the need in the EU for a harmonized standard
22:48:46 <rickj> …would mean years of work
22:49:25 <rickj> …current plan to adopt EPUB a11y 1.1 as a standard is in process.  Don't want to trigger the need for a harmonized standard
22:51:10 <rickj> …once EAA is enacted, then submit to ISO, any work in that period the EAA spec would be in effect, rather than delayed
22:52:22 <rickj> Makoto1: problem in Korea as they must use ISO, and are locked to use version 3.0.1
22:52:41 <tzviya8> q?
22:53:20 <rickj> wendyreid: we keep this in mind and get ready to submit in summer
22:53:22 <ivan> q+
22:54:14 <rickj> ivan: we know the document we have today, in the format we have today, cannot go to ISO directly.  We need several months of work to convert them
22:54:38 <rickj> …if thing in the EU move as expected, may start the conversion early next year
22:54:46 <rickj> s/thing/things
22:55:41 <rickj> wendyreid: I will talk to the WCAG team to find out what they had to do to do the ISO conversaion so we can know what we need to do
22:56:33 <rickj> Ivan: talking about getting 3.1 to ISO, talking today about a new 3.x version (webtoons, annotations, ...)
22:57:29 <rickj> wendyreid: WCAG had a previous version, we may have access to same means with ISO for a shorter path
22:57:35 <tzviya8> q?
22:57:55 <tzviya8> ack ivan
22:58:18 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:58:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
22:58:26 <rickj> {end}
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