14:59:01 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:59:05 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-irc 14:59:18 Meeting: Internationalization TPAC 2024 14:59:22 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:59:30 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/900ac419-eda7-404d-9750-d87b8c83dc05/ 14:59:30 clear agenda 14:59:30 agenda+ Agenda Review 14:59:30 agenda+ Planning for this week 14:59:32 agenda+ Document Work in Progress Review 14:59:34 agenda+ Language Enablement WIP 14:59:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:59:37 agenda+ AOB? 15:38:36 addison has joined #i18n 15:39:16 present+ Addison, Florian 16:00:49 addison has joined #i18n 16:00:52 bigbluehat has joined #i18n 16:01:52 addison has joined #i18n 16:03:12 addison has joined #i18n 16:04:15 addison has joined #i18n 16:05:20 addison has joined #i18n 16:06:41 addison has joined #i18n 16:07:52 addison has joined #i18n 16:09:30 addison has joined #i18n 16:10:43 addison has joined #i18n 16:11:01 agenda? 16:11:08 zakim, take up agendum 1 16:11:09 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:13:37 agenda+ review issues 16:14:21 #123 16:14:23 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/123 -> Action 123 reach out to the privacy person (Tara?) about meeting at TPAC (on xfq) due 2024-09-26 16:14:32 atsushi has joined #i18n 16:14:40 no reply yet 16:15:11 zakim, take up agendum 2 16:15:11 agendum 2 -- Planning for this week -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:25:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+label%3AAgenda%2BI18N%2BWHATWG 16:34:09 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3As%3Ainfra 16:38:48 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+label%3AAgenda%2BI18N%2BCSS 16:42:25 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024AprJun/0069.html 16:53:35 action: addison: propose creating a UTR for text-emphasis skip if we can get help with maintain 16:53:43 Created -> action #125 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/125 16:54:22 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4154 16:54:23 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4154 -> Issue 4154 Consider Canonicalization of language tags in :lang() selector maching (by frivoal) [selectors-4] [i18n-tracker] [Needs Review of Proposed Text] [selectors-5] [Agenda+ i18n] 17:01:50 rrsagent, make minutes 17:01:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-minutes.html xfq 17:02:08 present+ 17:09:24 https://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E7%99%BE%E7%A7%91 17:09:26 wikipedia uses lang="yue" 17:12:30 [Discuss whether :lang(zh-*) should match lang="yue"] 17:18:51 css selectors :lang match if their subtags match or if, after canonicalization, they match 17:19:42 RESOLVED: (our intention is) css selectors :lang match if their subtags match or if, after canonicalization, they match 17:23:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 17:33:24 r12a has joined #i18n 17:51:22 i think Uzbekistan is currently in the process of changing from Cyrillic to Latin 17:51:51 you may also find this app useful for some parts of this discussion https://r12a.github.io/app-subtags/index.html 17:52:14 https://r12a.github.io/app-subtags/?find=zh 18:08:40 scribe+ 18:09:03 #1909 18:09:04 Issue 1909 not found 18:09:20 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1909 18:09:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1909 -> Issue 1909 Should ACT require the formats for rules to be localizable? (by bert-github) [pending] [s:act-rules-format] 18:09:54 Bert: I found some editorial issues as well, but I"ll post to them directly 18:10:29 ... ACT doesn't describe the specific format for rules 18:10:30 https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/WD-act-rules-format-1.1-20240618/#rule-description 18:10:36 ... it says you can use PDF or HTML 18:11:05 ... they don't require that the human description is in a recognizable language 18:11:10 ... it has to be plain language 18:11:40 ... do we need to say that the format needs to be capable of labeling that language? 18:11:51 ... unless that's implicit in being accessible 18:12:14 ... assuming it's HTML, you can label 18:12:35 ... but if it's another format, I don't know 18:13:03 xfq: what does they use the ACT rule for? 18:13:17 Bert: it's a format for storing accessibility checks 18:13:31 ... it's not machine readble 18:13:37 ... it's human readable 18:14:27 addison: you could build a machine readable thing around all of this 18:14:35 ... but they don't require it 18:15:27 ... @@ 18:15:46 Bert: the format should not only be accessible but also be localizable 18:16:09 addison: by itself it's not wrong or right 18:17:00 addison: I think it would be good to say that they should have some text about providing localization 18:17:07 ... even if it's not normative 18:17:10 Bert: OK 18:17:16 #1910 18:17:16 Issue 1910 not found 18:17:24 gb, help 18:17:24 addison, I am a bot to look up and create GitHub issues and 18:17:24 … action items. I am an instance of GHURLBot 0.5. 18:17:24 … Try gb, help commands or 18:17:24 … see https://w3c.github.io/GHURLBot/manual.html 18:17:35 gb, repo 18:17:36 addison, sorry, I don't understand what you want me to do. Maybe try "help"? 18:17:55 gb, use 18:17:55 addison, sorry, I don't understand what you want me to do. Maybe try "help"? 18:17:57 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1910 18:17:58 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1910 -> Issue 1910 How are rule identifiers matched to one another? (by bert-github) [pending] [s:act-rules-format] 18:18:02 Bert: they have a rule Identifier 18:18:13 ... they says this identifier must be unique 18:18:26 ... but it is not specified how identifiers are compared 18:18:41 ... or if they are normalized 18:18:55 ... any recommendation? 18:19:25 addison: how does it enforce? 18:19:32 ... charmod-norm 18:20:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1911 18:20:04 present+ fantasai 18:20:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1911 -> Issue 1911 ACT does not require that the language of text is indicated (by bert-github) [pending] [s:act-rules-format] 18:20:49 Bert: It does not say anything about which human language 18:21:01 atsushi_web has joined #i18n 18:22:09 present+ r12a 18:22:23 xfq: does "plain language" mean easily understandable language, or does it mean natural language? 18:23:42 Bert: I think it means easily understandable language 18:24:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1912 18:24:17 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1912 -> Issue 1912 Is the ‘descriptive title’ used for matching? (by bert-github) [pending] [s:act-rules-format] 18:24:41 Bert: composite rule 18:25:21 ... it refers to atomic rules with descriptive titles 18:25:49 ... I don't know if the descriptive title is used for matching or searching 18:26:13 addison: in the EU they're gonna require at least 2 languages 18:29:24 https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/129 -> CLOSED Issue 129 [AGWG] CR transition for ACT-Rules-Format (by nitedog) [Entering CR] [wg:ag] 18:30:43 action: addison: check if ACT 1.0 was reviewed 18:30:44 Created -> action #126 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/126 18:33:07 https://github.com/w3c/string-meta 18:33:31 addison: reasonably soon, I'd like to consider transitioning string-meta to Note 18:33:51 ... not just because I'm gonna go to the UTW workshop next month and talk about it 18:33:59 ... we've done mostly the work on this 18:34:13 ... we could look at buttoning up this spec being finished 18:35:55 https://www.w3.org/policies/process/#note-track 18:36:50 xfq: @@ see the process ^ 18:37:05 addison: I think that would be good to have 18:37:12 ... to say that this is our current thinking 18:37:18 ... do others disagree? 18:38:05 [silence] 18:38:06 addison: I think most of our changes are in 18:38:17 ... we have producers and consumers stuff 18:39:02 xfq: we have 15 open issues 18:39:04 https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/issues 18:39:30 https://github.com/w3c/timezone 18:39:54 addison: I've been working on an update to Working with time and time zones 18:40:03 https://w3c.github.io/timezone/ 18:40:03 ... formerly called Working with time zones 18:40:14 ... I'd like to get this enough shape to publish the new one 18:40:28 ... because I think it has a bunch of valuable information 18:40:48 eemeli: I have looked at it 18:41:17 ... when reading it I did not get a sense of who is supposed to do what with this 18:41:33 addison: it's mostly directed at developers 18:41:41 ... who need to work with time and time zones 18:41:50 ... input type=time 18:41:58 ... when do we get serialization 18:42:21 ... mostly this is about if I'm writing a web page I should do X, I should not do X 18:42:56 present+ Aki 18:43:41 aki has joined #i18n 18:43:53 rrsagent, make minutes 18:43:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-minutes.html xfq 18:44:41 addison: the sedate things are from RFC 9557 18:44:54 eemeli: proposed standard from April this year 18:45:28 addison: I would welcome comments 18:45:33 https://github.com/w3c/string-search 18:45:54 https://github.com/w3c/string-search 18:46:06 addison: string-search 18:46:14 ... we have an open PR 18:46:21 https://deploy-preview-23--w3c-string-search.netlify.app/ 18:46:21 ... stealing text from Henry 18:46:45 ... we took all of the string search and find stuff out of charmod-norm 18:46:52 ... that we could finish in our lifetime 18:47:09 ... since then there have been at least 3 efforts to write down how find works 18:47:12 ... in the browser 18:47:41 ... including one that's currently incubating somewhere 18:47:54 https://deploy-preview-23--w3c-string-search.netlify.app/#text-frag-lang 18:48:19 ... in the bullet list ^ 18:48:39 ... if you search for each one of those words you can see what you would expect to find 18:48:53 ... assuming that the string is tagged with the language properly 18:49:06 ... obvious you can see what the browsers currently do 18:49:20 ... the question is whether those are the things that they should do 18:50:02 ... there was an attempt to make it use the collator 18:50:56 ... you could type han, you could be lazy on inputting 18:51:13 ... there's a feature for ignoring case 18:52:08 xfq: not just the UI, also the window.find() method 18:52:29 eemeli: any performance constraints? 18:53:05 addison: I'd like to finish the beta of this thing 18:53:17 ... because we keep coming back to it every 3 or 4 years 18:53:27 ... when somebody discovers that they want to write find 18:54:32 addison: Shane Carr reached out to me 18:55:27 Aki: Hi, I'm Aki Braun, former chair of TC 39 18:55:49 ... I'm here on behalf of Ecma International Secretary 18:56:13 ... I'm trying to figure out ways that our SDOs could be working together 18:56:52 addison: there's a steady stream of of API and additions and complications 18:57:06 ... we want to develop in some sort of orderly fashion 18:57:22 ... my other hat is the Unicode chair of MessageFormat 18:57:41 ... it is ended up being effectively a templating language for strings 18:57:54 ... what it really wants to have is a resource container 18:58:12 ... the status of ES 10 years ago was not internationalized 18:58:21 ... we're playing catch up 18:58:33 ... in increasingly ordered and structred way 18:59:49 eemeli: my take is JS has a need for having the ability in order to be able to do message as a whole in a decent way 19:00:14 ... it probably makes more sense from a message resource @@ defined somewhere other than TC 39 19:00:25 ... I'll be at the UTW and have a session 19:00:48 ... @@ 19:00:57 Aki: TC 57 19:01:08 eemeli: I presume that's the next available number, yes 19:01:24 ... the resource format is currently in this sort of uncomfortable space 19:01:32 ... where we've done a small bunch of work 19:01:48 ... but we don't know where technically this work 19:02:24 addison: I can tell you the number specs where people are revinting packaging 19:02:33 ... 9 ways of doing this 19:03:31 ... we can find one place to hold the best practices 19:04:12 Aki: we need to figure out that stuff not just for the web but broader than the web 19:04:36 ... we as a group of SDOs like Unicode and W3C are sort of keeping an eye on what each other is up to 19:05:16 addison: how is the locale model implemented in HTML and looks like for JS 19:05:50 Aki: @@ 19:06:06 addison: classical timekeeping, milliseconds since the epoch 19:06:40 ... Temporal promises to solve that, but it exposes a bunch of these concepts which I'm not even sure if groups understand it 19:07:22 ... I'm a little frustrated because it's a lot easier to work with people to teacher developers to use Temporal 19:09:11 addison: this group don't review all RFCs or Unicode work but we occasionally glance them 19:09:36 ... we host some amount of article like material for explaining things and we use MDN 19:10:12 [Aki shows a document that says Ecma-liaison agreement on it] 19:10:22 s/Ecma-/Ecma-W3C/ 19:11:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 19:11:50 eemeli: it's challenging to keep on participating in because this WG deals a lot of content that is not directly relevant to TC 39 JS work 19:12:09 q+ 19:12:34 ack next 19:12:39 Aki: @@ 19:12:42 ... when this come up we're gonna reach out to each other or schedule a joint meeting 19:13:02 r12a: I was actually gonna suggest something very similar 19:13:21 ... could be that we put a @@ list together 19:13:37 ... things that we think we're working on, string-meta, for example 19:13:44 ... time and time zones 19:13:54 ... the other folks would be interested in 19:14:01 ... and collaborating on 19:14:12 ... if we had a page somewhere 19:14:13 s/@@/reading/ 19:14:33 ... and then we could point to the documents where people could see what we're doing 19:14:49 rrsagent, make minutes 19:14:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-minutes.html xfq 19:15:12 present+ Bert 19:15:36 addison: any actions we can take? 19:15:58 Aki: in the next few months, if you could come up with some areas where you think it would be relevant 19:16:09 ... it would be helpful to talk to each other 19:16:15 action: addison: make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N 19:16:16 Created -> action #127 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127 19:16:44 ... that could help me figure out things like how we could formalize relationships so that we could just have a joint meeting 19:17:24 addison: r12a is working on language enablement 19:18:58 xfq: @@ 19:19:26 ... like custom dictionary for text segmentation (like Intl.Segmenter) 19:20:26 shoot me an email at hi@akiro.se with any intersecting topic ideas 19:20:43 r12a: if you're doing segmentation stuff we have problems that arise when you're doing this on a worldwide basis rather than just for English 19:20:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 19:21:39 https://www.w3.org/TR/jpan-lreq/#segmentation 19:23:15 eemeli: we're not quite ready to have a full proposal, but we have been discussing to have a locale that would communicate to users that they want "Standard English" 19:23:34 ... but without all the specific i18n aspects of American English attached 19:23:57 ... what we've been kind of considering is specifically using a region code ZZ 19:23:59 ... en-ZZ 19:24:21 r12a: wouldn't that just be en? 19:24:41 eemeli: the problem is that the web reality is that en translate to en-US currently 19:24:54 ... and changing that to something else would break way too many things 19:25:07 Bert: in what way does it map to American English? 19:25:29 eemeli: week numbering is American rather than the ISO way of doing it 19:25:40 ... weeks start on Sundays rather than Mondays 19:25:59 Aki: is this for historical reasons? 19:26:20 eemeli: this is a real world problem 19:26:40 ... very clear majority of en-US localization of Firefox users are coming from outside the USA 19:26:53 ... because that is the default effectively 19:27:11 ... they chose English but what they end up getting is English with American 19:28:08 r12a: why leave the spelling in American spelling? because again my understanding is that most of the world uses British spelling for colour 19:28:27 addison: I think that's only partially true 19:28:42 how about en-001 19:29:35 ... what we call euphemistically international English which is British spellings, many parts of the world which have adopted US spelling as preferred, UAE as an example 19:31:08 addison: @@ 19:31:20 ... CLDR adding every country code under English 19:31:22 ... en-AQ 19:32:18 eemeli: if we use en-ZZ the sensible thing that would be to go with year-month-day 19:32:34 addison: the starting point would be the CLDR-TC 19:32:50 ... whatever happens they have to manage the data for you 19:33:15 ... es-419, nobody lives in 419 19:34:07 eemeli: you need to make Americans still get the American experience 19:34:32 addison: what do we call it? we already have International English 19:37:16 addison: en-IE, en-DE etc. differ only in a very small set of tailorable of the data 19:37:32 ... usually not the dominant language of the country 19:38:59 ... I don't know the solution, but @@ fallback 19:40:20 eemeli: 001 does not work because it's got an established practice 19:40:28 ... it's already used by CLDR 19:40:36 ... don't always work in all places 19:42:25 rrsagent, make minutes 19:42:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-minutes.html xfq 19:44:13 addison has joined #i18n 19:44:17 https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/i18n-core/calendar/ 19:47:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-minutes.html addison 20:47:43 addison has joined #i18n 20:55:17 https://github.com/w3c/webextensions/pull/569 -> Pull Request 569 Proposal: i18n-system-languages (by carlosjeurissen) [topic: localization] [i18n-tracker] 20:55:56 gb, status 20:55:56 addison, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are off, full issues are printed 10 at a time; and the repository is https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions 21:02:06 scribe+ 21:02:21 jyasskin has joined #i18n 21:03:43 atsushi has joined #i18n 21:04:05 agenda+ date/time pr 21:04:07 agenda? 21:04:31 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/ 21:04:53 addison: Let's start with specdev. 21:05:14 ... We have some three Pull Requests on it. 21:05:23 ... One is blocked on darkmode. 21:05:46 ... And 23 issues. 21:05:56 ... Last update was posted in March. 21:06:53 action: xfq: perform review of issues for inclusion in specdev 21:06:56 Created -> action #128 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/128 21:07:20 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/ 21:08:09 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/13 21:08:09 addison: Issues on glossary. 21:08:09 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/13 -> Issue 13 Proposal to add "Detailed reading mode" (by murata2makoto) [wontfix] 21:08:31 ... Close it? 21:09:22 atsushi: I agree with xfq's comment on the issue. 21:09:52 ... I thint it was originally related to a11y. 21:10:11 s/thint/think 21:10:48 ... But no activity on it. So I agree to close with a wont-fix. 21:10:59 eemeli: Is this specific to Japanese? 21:11:03 atsushi: I think so. 21:12:34 addison: Is it used in jlreq? 21:13:14 atsushi: I don't think so. And I don't think there is an a11y glossary. 21:14:04 xfq: It is a way to explain in which ideograph is meant if two sound the same. 21:14:12 s/ in // 21:15:08 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/581 21:15:08 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/581 -> Pull Request 581 Initial work on language-negotiation materials (by aphillips) 21:15:24 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/581/files?short_path=7aef4dd#diff-7aef4dd22d30f6ded58eb6eb22421d27f49dbe36c5fc03a27352050d52590dab 21:15:28 i/xfq/addison adds wontfix label. 21:16:05 addison: 581 needs some stiing down. Comments welcome. 21:16:15 s/stiing/sitting 21:16:24 agenda? 21:16:31 zakim, take up agendum 7 21:16:31 agendum 7 -- date/time pr -- taken up [from addison] 21:17:11 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/327 21:17:11 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/327 -> Pull Request 327 Add info about HTML and JS new features (by xfq) 21:17:16 https://deploy-preview-327--i18n-drafts.netlify.app/questions/qa-date-format.en 21:17:58 xfq: Last time I showed this, addison said he wanted to review it. I replied to his comments. 21:19:37 addison: In first para, mm/dd/yy is not unique to the USA. 21:20:59 ... First para should explain the purpose of the article. 21:21:11 ... It is part of a Q&A? 21:21:18 https://shoelace.style/components/format-date/ and https://github.com/github/relative-time-element 21:23:10 present+ jeffrey_jaskin 21:23:34 jyasskin: Want to talk about new custom elements for date/time? 21:23:59 xfq: We can split the article. 21:24:21 addison: Or omit the parts we don't really talk about. E.g., storage. 21:26:12 ... Easy sorting may be a reason for a format. 21:26:46 ... Why is the accept-language header mentioned in the article? 21:29:02 rrsagent, make minutes 21:29:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-minutes.html xfq 21:29:20 eemeli: It mentions accept-language, but not the lang of the HTML element. 21:31:18 addison: You can format a date at the server or at the client. The server would choose the format to match the rest of the page. The client side relies on Javascript. 21:32:14 xfq: OK, so I need to rework the text and make the scope and the intention more clear. 21:32:25 rrsagent, make minutes 21:32:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-i18n-minutes.html xfq 21:33:04 eemeli: The user input examples show different formats. But they are not customizable, are they? 21:33:32 xfq: Correct, it depends on the browser. 21:35:23 xfq: You notice when you use somebody elses computer to enter a date... 21:35:55 https://open-ui.org/components/datepicker.research/ 21:36:13 jyasskin: A survey about date pickers ^^ 21:37:12 ... It doesn't look iike they have a proposal to improve this, but it is in their scope. 21:38:21 addison: CLDR covers almost all of the things in this article, even things like ‘today’ and ‘this week’. 21:41:26 addison: Different calendar for Thai is mentioned. 21:41:27 xfq: Issue of different calendars is not mentioned in the input section. 21:42:33 eemeli: And then there is the issue what is the ‘weekend’, it may be Fri-Sat. 21:43:25 s/Fri-Sat/Fri and Sun/ 21:46:29 eemeli: One option for is also to not choose a format, but use the HTML input element and let it choose it for you. 21:46:36 s/ for // 21:47:47 eemeli: It seems the document doesn't do itself what it recommends. 21:48:19 ... Who exactly is this document for? Maybe instead of spending time on it, drop it? 21:48:39 xfq: It is for display of dates. I added the input section. 21:49:07 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/2404 21:49:07 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/2404 -> Issue 2404 A tag to display date and/or time to the user in his preferred format. (by lostmsu) [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [i18n-tracker] 21:49:32 ... Trying to update with some recent HTML5 and Javascript [since the document is from 2003] 21:51:13 addison: The WhatWG has an issue for a tag to display a date or time, ^^ 21:51:33 ... It's on our list of things to discuss with them. 21:52:21 eemeli: The alternative to that is to use Javascript. 21:53:21 HTML time element -> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-time-element 21:53:23 There is a