12:55:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ag
12:56:00 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-ag-irc
12:56:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:56:01 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
12:56:07 <Chuck> chair:  Chuck
12:56:29 <Chuck> meeting:  AGWG-2024-09-23
12:56:49 <Chuck> rrsagent, generate minutes
12:56:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-ag-minutes.html Chuck
12:58:26 <Chuck> agenda+ Monday 9.00 AM - 9.30 AM Welcome, Introductions, and Logistics
12:58:41 <Chuck> agenda+ Monday 9.30 AM – 12.30 PM Retrospective
12:59:06 <Chuck> agenda+ Monday 12.30 PM – 1.30 PM Lunch
12:59:24 <Chuck> agenda+ Monday 1.30 PM – 5.30 PM Conformance exercise
12:59:41 <Chuck> agenda+ Tuesday 9.00 AM – 9.15 AM Introductions and getting started
13:00:04 <Chuck> agenda+ Tuesday 9.15 AM – 12.30 PM Conformance model discussion
13:00:22 <Chuck> agenda+ Tuesday 12.30 PM – 1.30 PM Lunch
13:00:37 <Chuck> agenda+ Tuesday 1.30 PM – 4.30 PM Conformance model discussion
13:00:53 <Chuck> agenda+ Tuesday 4.30  – 5.30 Review next subgroups
13:00:55 <Chuck> agenda?
13:22:09 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #ag
13:33:12 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
13:33:15 <Chuck> agenda?
13:58:06 <Chuck> zakim, clear agenda
13:58:06 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:58:46 <Chuck> agenda+ 9-9:30 Housekeeping and Introductions
13:59:11 <Chuck> agenda+ 9:30-10:30 Retrospective Data Gathering
13:59:39 <Chuck> agenda+ 10:30-10:45 Snacks
14:00:09 <Chuck> agenda+ 10:45-12:30 Retrospective Brainstorming Ideas
14:00:41 <Chuck> agenda+ 12:30-1:30 (13:30) Lunch
14:01:15 <Chuck> agenda+ 1:30 (13:30)-4:00 (16:00) Conformance Exercise Pt. 1
14:01:38 <Chuck> agenda+ 4:15 (16:15)-4:30 (16:30) Snacks
14:02:01 <Chuck> agenda+ 4:30 (16:30)-5:30 (17:30) Conformance Exercise Pt. 2
14:02:03 <Chuck> agenda?
14:29:28 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
14:36:45 <Chuck> agenda?
14:44:44 <alastairc> Retro doc https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DxCVBtsbxgOS0mLpoJ4Ur1nU0_MadKzE6q9PGg_MBzE/edit
15:01:00 <dj> dj has joined #ag
15:37:34 <ljoakley> ljoakley has joined #ag
15:37:52 <ljoakley> present+
15:37:55 <Rachael> present+
15:40:18 <Charli> Charli has joined #ag
15:42:47 <dj> dj has joined #ag
15:47:29 <Chuck> present+
15:49:09 <dj> dj has joined #ag
15:49:12 <dj> present+
15:49:56 <Chuck> agenda?
15:50:03 <alastairc> RRSAgent, make minute
15:50:03 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minute', alastairc.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:50:05 <alastairc> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:50:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-ag-minutes.html alastairc
15:51:10 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #ag
15:55:32 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ag
15:56:22 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #ag
15:56:41 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #ag
15:57:22 <kirkwood> present+
15:57:44 <jeanne2> jeanne2 has joined #ag
15:59:00 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #ag
15:59:54 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #ag
16:00:05 <Lisa> present+
16:00:12 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:00:21 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
16:00:25 <bruce_bailey> present+
16:00:32 <Makoto> present+
16:00:49 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
16:00:49 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:00:49 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #ag
16:00:49 <dj> dj has joined #ag
16:00:49 <Charli> Charli has joined #ag
16:00:49 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
16:00:49 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #ag
16:01:48 <alastairc> scribe: alastairc
16:01:52 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
16:01:52 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:01:52 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #ag
16:01:52 <dj> dj has joined #ag
16:01:52 <Charli> Charli has joined #ag
16:01:52 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
16:01:52 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #ag
16:01:53 <jeanne2> present+
16:02:17 <alastairc> present+
16:02:50 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ag
16:03:12 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
16:03:12 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:03:12 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #ag
16:03:12 <dj> dj has joined #ag
16:03:12 <Charli> Charli has joined #ag
16:03:12 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
16:03:12 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #ag
16:03:19 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
16:04:15 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie_Delisi has joined #ag
16:04:15 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #ag
16:04:15 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
16:04:15 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:04:15 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #ag
16:04:15 <dj> dj has joined #ag
16:04:15 <Charli> Charli has joined #ag
16:04:15 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
16:04:15 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #ag
16:05:05 <Jem> Jem has joined #ag
16:05:20 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #ag
16:05:20 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #ag
16:05:20 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie_Delisi has joined #ag
16:05:20 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #ag
16:05:20 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
16:05:20 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:05:20 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #ag
16:05:20 <dj> dj has joined #ag
16:05:20 <Charli> Charli has joined #ag
16:05:20 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
16:05:20 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #ag
16:06:41 <rashmi> rashmi has joined #ag
16:06:41 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #ag
16:06:41 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #ag
16:06:41 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie_Delisi has joined #ag
16:06:41 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #ag
16:06:41 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
16:06:41 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:06:41 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #ag
16:06:41 <dj> dj has joined #ag
16:06:41 <Charli> Charli has joined #ag
16:06:41 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
16:06:41 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #ag
16:07:52 <rashmi> rashmi has joined #ag
16:07:52 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #ag
16:07:52 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #ag
16:07:52 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie_Delisi has joined #ag
16:07:52 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #ag
16:07:52 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
16:07:52 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:07:52 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #ag
16:07:52 <dj> dj has joined #ag
16:07:52 <Charli> Charli has joined #ag
16:07:52 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
16:07:52 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #ag
16:09:13 <Jennie_Delisi> * I can scribe for hour 1 if helpful
16:09:30 <Sheri_B-H> Sheri_B-H has joined #ag
16:09:30 <rashmi> rashmi has joined #ag
16:09:30 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #ag
16:09:30 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #ag
16:09:30 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie_Delisi has joined #ag
16:09:30 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #ag
16:09:30 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
16:09:30 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:09:30 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #ag
16:09:30 <dj> dj has joined #ag
16:09:30 <Charli> Charli has joined #ag
16:09:30 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
16:09:30 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #ag
16:09:44 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #ag
16:10:43 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #ag
16:10:43 <Ben_Tillyer> Ben_Tillyer has joined #ag
16:10:43 <Chrisp> Chrisp has joined #ag
16:10:43 <Sheri_B-H> Sheri_B-H has joined #ag
16:10:43 <rashmi> rashmi has joined #ag
16:10:43 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #ag
16:10:43 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #ag
16:10:43 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie_Delisi has joined #ag
16:10:43 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #ag
16:10:43 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
16:10:43 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:10:43 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #ag
16:10:43 <dj> dj has joined #ag
16:10:43 <Charli> Charli has joined #ag
16:10:43 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #ag
16:10:43 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #ag
16:10:55 <hdv> also happy to scribe today!
16:11:45 <kenneth> kenneth has joined #ag
16:11:46 <Chrisp> present+
16:11:48 <kenneth> present+
16:11:53 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #ag
16:11:53 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #ag
16:11:56 <hdv> present+
16:11:57 <Makoto> present+
16:11:59 <maryjom> present+
16:12:02 <JenStrickland> JenStrickland has joined #ag
16:12:03 <LenB> LenB has joined #ag
16:12:05 <kirkwood> present+
16:12:06 <Glenda> present+
16:12:07 <GreggVan> present+
16:12:08 <JenStrickland> present+
16:12:08 <LenB> present+
16:12:11 <tburtin> tburtin has joined #ag
16:12:22 <rashmi> present+
16:12:23 <shiestyle> shiestyle has left #ag
16:13:07 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #ag
16:13:21 <tburtin> present+
16:13:32 <Rachael> whiteboard: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DxCVBtsbxgOS0mLpoJ4Ur1nU0_MadKzE6q9PGg_MBzE/edit#heading=h.bbbinvj1vb6j
16:14:03 <MelanieP> MelanieP has joined #ag
16:14:13 <Ben_Tillyer|2> Ben_Tillyer|2 has joined #ag
16:14:15 <alastairc> NB: It's a regular google doc, no inaccessible whiteboards here...
16:14:21 <MelanieP> present+
16:14:31 <JenStrickland> Did Chuck 3D print these himself?
16:14:35 <Rachael> yes
16:18:18 <Ben_Tillyer> Ben_Tillyer has joined #ag
16:18:25 <Ben_Tillyer> present+
16:19:11 <alastairc> Chuck: Been through the housekeeping, will start with the retro in a moment.
16:19:13 <Jon_Avia> Jon_Avia has joined #ag
16:19:43 <alastairc> (Talks through agenda from the pres: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1uKYENZQpTIAjs7x762kFjC_U7CWY6PLfpl8lO7MABBs/edit#slide=id.g303dcba0dc8_1_6)
16:19:51 <Jon_Avia> present+jon_avila
16:20:54 <alastairc> Chuck: Starting with the retro. Intending to reflect on the past, improve in future.
16:21:16 <alastairc> ... starting in this charter, last Oct, so that is the focus of the retro.
16:21:45 <alastairc> ... 4 Ps, positive, poor, potential (improvements), progress (how do we make further progress).
16:22:12 <alastairc> ... 2 main things in scope, evaluating the practices procedures, direction, and any other things.
16:22:37 <alastairc> ... time is not only challenges and issues, but also constructing ideas for improvement. Important to consider the changes we want to make.
16:22:59 <alastairc> ... we want to do these twice a year, so we can review the progress since the last one.
16:23:19 <Rachael> CEPC: https://www.w3.org/policies/code-of-conduct/
16:23:29 <alastairc> ... In a retro, it is a blameless environment, and remember the CEPC.
16:23:39 <MelanieP> MelanieP has joined #ag
16:23:53 <alastairc> ... in the past we've spent time thinking about the positives / negatives.
16:24:41 <jaunita_george> jaunita_george has joined #ag
16:24:43 <alastairc> Chuck: The first part is the positives and negatives. We use that later in the brain-storming session, to think about solutions.
16:24:47 <jaunita_george> present+
16:24:49 <Sheri_B-H> Sheri_B-H has joined #ag
16:25:04 <alastairc> ... if you think of something in the 1st part that is for the second part, please write it down on the whiteboard.
16:25:08 <alastairc> q?
16:25:10 <Chuck> q?
16:25:12 <Glenda> q+
16:25:24 <JenStrickland> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DxCVBtsbxgOS0mLpoJ4Ur1nU0_MadKzE6q9PGg_MBzE/edit#heading=h.bbbinvj1vb6j
16:25:24 <Ben_Tillyer> PPT: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1uKYENZQpTIAjs7x762kFjC_U7CWY6PLfpl8lO7MABBs/edit?pli=1#slide=id.g30416ca9379_0_20
16:25:27 <JJ9> JJ9 has joined #ag
16:25:32 <Glenda> Even after 8 years of work, AGWG hasn’t yet demonstrated that a full rewrite of WCAG 2.x will yield net positive results. A tremendous amount of time is being invested in this rewrite, yet very little has been produced that shows WCAG 3 will even improve on WCAG 2.x, let alone improve enough to warrant the opportunity cost, and the overhead that will come from having to make the switch and maintain conformance to both versions while legislation [CUT]
16:25:33 <Glenda> the world is being updated.
16:25:34 <Glenda> It seems unlikely WCAG 3.0 will be market-ready before 2030. Even that may be optimistic. This incurs a significant opportunity cost. There are various issues that could be tackled much sooner than that, with more targeted and smaller updates to WCAG. Examples include adopting APCA, improvements to focus indicator requirements, requirements around new personalization standards, requirements related to advances in AI, etc. AGWG is essentially telli[CUT]
16:25:35 <Glenda> who need these issues resolved to wait while they are busy re-inventing the wheel.
16:25:55 <alastairc> Glenda: I'm representing Wilco's feedback, which I've pasted in above.
16:25:58 <JJ> JJ has joined #ag
16:26:06 <JJ> present+
16:26:07 <jaunita_george> +1 to wilco
16:26:13 <alastairc> ... he is worried about pace and opportunity cost.
16:26:35 <Ben_Tillyer> q
16:26:37 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
16:26:37 <jaunita_george> q
16:26:38 <Lisa> q+
16:26:41 <jaunita_george> q+\
16:26:42 <Chuck> q?
16:26:48 <Chuck> ack Glenda
16:26:50 <JenStrickland> q+
16:26:50 <jaunita_george> q+
16:27:04 <Makoto> q+
16:27:17 <kzms2> kzms2 has joined #ag
16:27:22 <Chuck> ack lisa
16:28:41 <Chuck> q?
16:28:44 <Chuck> ack ben
16:28:52 <ljoakley> q+
16:28:55 <Chuck> ack Jen
16:29:01 <Rachael> q- \
16:29:52 <MelanieP> MelanieP has joined #ag
16:30:18 <Jackie> Jackie has joined #ag
16:30:44 <Jackie> present+
16:31:02 <Chuck> q?
16:31:06 <Chuck> ack jau
16:31:40 <Chuck> q?
16:31:54 <Chuck> ack makoto
16:32:37 <Chuck> ack lj
16:33:20 <Chuck> q+
16:33:27 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:33:32 <JenStrickland> q+
16:34:00 <Glenda> Huge +1 to what ljoakley just said about “Task forces - we’ve addressed 154 issues (in WCAG 2.x TF), glad we have this task-force, really enjoy working on that.”
16:34:09 <Jennie_Delisi> q+ minute summaries, hybrid joining options, ability to participate asynschronously
16:34:14 <Chuck> ack
16:34:15 <Chuck> q?
16:34:25 <maryjom> q+
16:34:25 <alastairc> PLease start your comment with whether it's positive or negative, my brain capacity can't hold everything in until I work out which it is.
16:34:25 <Chuck> ack Jen
16:34:25 <Jennie_Delisi> q+
16:35:26 <julierawe> Zoom question: Is everyone online OK with the camera zooming in and out? If anyone is getting motion-sickness, maybe we could set the camera to stick with one wide shot?
16:35:32 <Chuck> ack maryjo
16:36:39 <Chuck> ack Jennie
16:37:21 <Chuck> q?
16:38:00 <julierawe> q+
16:38:07 <Rachael> q+
16:38:26 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ag
16:38:35 <tburtin> +1 To summaries of the meetings.  Adding the GitHub thread summaries are appreciated!
16:38:40 <JenStrickland> q+
16:38:41 <Chuck> ack Julie
16:39:36 <Chuck> ack Rach
16:39:58 <fbedora9> fbedora9 has joined #ag
16:40:19 <dj> q+ to github
16:40:19 <Chuck> ack Jen
16:41:06 <shadi> shadi has joined #ag
16:41:21 <shadi> present+
16:41:38 <fbedora9> present+
16:41:47 <Chuck> qq=
16:41:50 <Chuck> QQ+
16:41:51 <Chuck> QQ+
16:41:54 <Chuck> qq=
16:41:58 <dj> q-
16:42:01 <Chuck> QQ+
16:42:15 <julierawe> q+
16:42:29 <tburtin> q+ to say thank you for the Github Summaries and thank you for reducing movement during meetings
16:42:53 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:42:53 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to react to JenStrickland
16:43:42 <dj> q+ to github
16:44:01 <Glenda> q+
16:44:07 <Chuck> ack julie
16:45:20 <Sheri_B-H> Sheri_B-H has joined #ag
16:45:29 <bruce_bailey> Per Rachael ask to focus on current charter and time period...
16:45:31 <bruce_bailey> https://www.w3.org/2023/11/ag-charter
16:46:01 <kirkwood> can AI be used for a github issue status summary?
16:46:07 <Sheri_B-H> q+
16:46:09 <Chuck> ack tburtin
16:46:09 <Zakim> tburtin, you wanted to say thank you for the Github Summaries and thank you for reducing movement during meetings
16:46:42 <Chuck> ack dj
16:46:42 <Zakim> dj, you wanted to github
16:47:14 <Chuck> ack glenda
16:48:26 <Chuck> q+ to ask about the earlier observations from Glenda
16:48:27 <JenStrickland> For anyone just joining, the whiteboard: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DxCVBtsbxgOS0mLpoJ4Ur1nU0_MadKzE6q9PGg_MBzE/edit#heading=h.bbbinvj1vb6j
16:48:48 <Chuck> ack Sheri
16:49:36 <Chuck> ack Sheri
16:49:42 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:49:42 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask about the earlier observations from Glenda
16:51:04 <Chuck> q?
16:51:08 <alastairc> q?
16:51:58 <GreggVan> q+
16:52:21 <Glenda> More input from Wilco:  “As time goes on, AGWG is likely going to see increased pressure from the W3C, from its members, from legislators, and the world at large to hurry it up to finish WCAG 3.0. This pressure is inevitably going to hurt the quality of the standard. We’ve seen a similar thing happen in WCAG 2.1, where in order to get it ready for the EU’s Web Accessibility Directive, various parts were rushed to completion. As a result, the[CUT]
16:52:21 <Glenda> of WCAG 2.1 success criteria is noticeably worse than those of WCAG 2.0 and 2.2, making WCAG 2.1 more difficult to test, and making some of the things it requires organizations to invest in of questionable benefit to people with disabilities. For WCAG 3.0 though, the problem won’t be a few rushed criteria, it will be the entire standard that’s rushed.”
16:52:41 <Chuck> ack Gregg
16:53:32 <dj> +1
16:53:57 <Chuck> q+
16:54:12 <Chuck> Melanie (spelling?)
16:54:14 <kevin> There is a lot that we could potentially do to provide some sort of overview page to the GitHub interface
16:54:39 <kevin> s/Melanie (spelling?)//
16:54:40 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:54:47 <JJ> q+
16:55:18 <Chuck> ack jj
16:55:42 <Rachael> q+
16:55:58 <Chuck> ack Rach
16:56:12 <Chuck> q?
16:56:14 <Lisa> Q=
16:56:17 <Lisa> q+
16:56:21 <Chuck> ack Lisa
16:57:07 <Glenda> q+
16:57:11 <maryjom> q+
16:57:33 <Chuck> ack Glenda
16:57:50 <kirkwood> +1 to Glenda
16:57:53 <dj> +1 Glenda
16:57:58 <JJ> Related Github issue for alphabetically sorting: https://github.com/isaacs/github/issues/895
16:58:10 <alastairc> q+
16:58:18 <Chuck> q+ to address ai unless alastair does
16:58:23 <kevin> qq+
16:58:28 <alastairc> q-
16:58:30 <Chuck> ack kevin
16:58:30 <Zakim> kevin, you wanted to react to Glenda
16:58:40 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #ag
16:58:41 <kirkwood> No.
16:59:13 <Chuck> "discression"
16:59:17 <Francis_Storr> present+
16:59:20 <Chuck> q?
16:59:21 <dj> q+ to AI
16:59:29 <Chuck> ack ch
16:59:29 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to address ai unless alastair does
16:59:32 <alastairc> kevin: Just to note that we rely on scribes to check the validity of content.
16:59:42 <kirkwood> there are legal issues as well
17:00:24 <kirkwood> +1 have used it as well
17:00:50 <Chuck> ack maryjo
17:00:54 <Rachael> q+ to ask about pacing and feedback
17:01:15 <alastairc> q+ question on long github threads.
17:01:21 <Chuck> q+ to offer a critique on timing
17:02:15 <Chuck> q?
17:02:30 <Chuck> ack ques
17:02:30 <Zakim> question, you wanted to comment on long github threads.
17:02:48 <alastairc> q+ to ask a question on long github threads.
17:03:10 <Chuck> ack dj
17:03:10 <Zakim> dj, you wanted to AI
17:03:31 <bruce_bailey> +1 that MaryJo management of WCAG2ICT TF via GitHub tools was excellent.
17:03:37 <Chuck> ack Rach
17:03:37 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to ask about pacing and feedback
17:04:09 <kirkwood> +1 to DJ
17:04:33 <sabidussi_marco> sabidussi_marco has joined #ag
17:04:36 <Chuck> q?
17:04:56 <alastairc> Rachael: How have people found the pace? We're going faster, which is positive and negative in some ways, how have people found it?
17:05:09 <Chuck> ack Ch
17:05:09 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to offer a critique on timing
17:06:03 <ljoakley> q+
17:06:07 <Chuck> ack ala
17:06:07 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to ask a question on long github threads.
17:06:44 <Jennie_Delisi> q+
17:06:51 <jaunita_george> q+
17:06:51 <Chuck> ack lj
17:07:59 <Chuck> ack Jennie
17:08:33 <GreggVan> q+
17:08:55 <sabidussi_marco> sabidussi_marco has left #ag
17:08:56 <Chuck> ack jaunita
17:09:18 <Chuck> ack Gregg
17:10:31 <kirkwood> If AI is used it should be clearly stated as such.
17:10:40 <Glenda> If we do use AI summary - we can clearly indicate that this is a Summary provided by AI.  Reader be advised :)
17:11:55 <bruce_bailey> +1 to GreggVan that live monitoring of IRC minutes is important.
17:12:06 <Chuck> q+
17:12:21 <Chuck> ack Ch
17:13:14 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
17:13:22 <Chuck> ack Ben
17:14:25 <Glenda> q+
17:14:30 <Chuck> ack Glenda
17:15:04 <Chuck> q?
17:15:30 <jaunita_george> q+
17:16:10 <Chuck> ack Jau
17:17:07 <dj> s/glaces/glances
17:19:28 <alastairc> Whiteboard doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DxCVBtsbxgOS0mLpoJ4Ur1nU0_MadKzE6q9PGg_MBzE/edit
17:21:01 <alastairc> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:21:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-ag-minutes.html alastairc
17:25:52 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick_H_Lauke has joined #ag
17:38:23 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #AG
17:50:37 <Chuck> 5 minutes ago
17:50:42 <Chuck> we haven't resumed yet
17:51:18 <Francis_Storr> Pretty sure Chuck said there'd be snacks at 10:30. Are they being Doordashed to my house or something?
17:55:07 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #ag
17:55:23 <fbedora1> fbedora1 has joined #ag
17:59:58 <fbedora1> quit
18:00:02 <fbedora1> fbedora1 has left #ag
18:00:10 <fbedora1> fbedora1 has joined #ag
18:01:14 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #ag
18:03:00 <jaunita_george> q+
18:03:23 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #ag
18:03:23 <jaunita_george> ack jau
18:04:38 <Jennie_Delisi> q+
18:04:45 <Jennie_Delisi> q-
18:05:36 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #ag
18:06:50 <Rachael> q+
18:07:02 <Jennie_Delisi> I pulled it off - just wasn't sure if we could include different tooling into the discussion but realized not necessary
18:07:18 <Rachael> q-
18:07:29 <JJ> JJ has joined #ag
18:07:58 <Jennie_Delisi> q+
18:08:02 <maryjom> q+
18:08:03 <Chuck> ack Jennie
18:08:25 <Rachael> q+
18:08:48 <Chuck> ack maryjo
18:09:38 <kevin> q+
18:10:26 <JenStrickland> JenStrickland has joined #ag
18:10:31 <JenStrickland> present+
18:10:53 <Rachael> Onboarding documentation https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Onboarding_for_working_in_Github
18:10:55 <Chuck> ack Rach
18:11:13 <JenStrickland> q+ for Steve Faulkner
18:11:23 <dj> Zakim, agenda?
18:11:23 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
18:11:24 <Zakim> 1. 9-9:30 Housekeeping and Introductions [from Chuck]
18:11:24 <Zakim> 2. 9:30-10:30 Retrospective Data Gathering [from Chuck]
18:11:24 <Zakim> 3. 10:30-10:45 Snacks [from Chuck]
18:11:24 <Zakim> 4. 10:45-12:30 Retrospective Brainstorming Ideas [from Chuck]
18:11:25 <Zakim> 5. 12:30-1:30 (13:30) Lunch [from Chuck]
18:11:25 <Zakim> 6. 1:30 (13:30)-4:00 (16:00) Conformance Exercise Pt. 1 [from Chuck]
18:11:25 <Zakim> 7. 4:15 (16:15)-4:30 (16:30) Snacks [from Chuck]
18:11:25 <Zakim> 8. 4:30 (16:30)-5:30 (17:30) Conformance Exercise Pt. 2 [from Chuck]
18:11:31 <Jennie_Delisi> +1 to mentorship. I had 2, very helpful
18:11:31 <alastairc> q+ SteveF
18:11:38 <alastairc> q- JenStrickland
18:11:40 <Sheri_B-H> Sheri_B-H has joined #ag
18:11:51 <shadi> shadi has joined #ag
18:11:56 <Chuck> ack kevin
18:12:25 <jaunita_george> q+
18:12:28 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
18:12:37 <Rachael> q+
18:12:45 <JenStrickland> q+
18:13:52 <Chuck> ack SteveF
18:14:37 <Chuck> q+ to discuss historic decisions
18:15:20 <Chuck> ack juanita
18:15:44 <Jennie_Delisi> q+
18:15:54 <Chuck> ack jaunita
18:17:02 <Chuck> ack ben
18:17:06 <Chuck> ack Rach
18:17:11 <Rachael> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_3_Timeline
18:17:50 <Chuck> ack Jen
18:18:04 <Jennie_Delisi> q+
18:20:24 <Chuck> ack Ch
18:20:24 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to discuss historic decisions
18:20:30 <Chuck> q+ to review actions
18:20:37 <Chuck> ack Jen
18:20:42 <Chuck> ack Jen
18:22:12 <Chuck> ack Ch
18:22:12 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to review actions
18:23:20 <alastairc> Chuck: If we created a sub-group for onboarding, would you be interested in joining?
18:23:41 <Ben_Tillyer> +1
18:23:45 <dj> +1 async
18:23:47 <kevin> q+
18:24:07 <dj> +1 async (--Jeroen)
18:24:09 <ChrisLoiselle> +1 to be used as an institutional resource as AG sees fit per context of what is needed.
18:24:11 <Chuck> ack kevin
18:24:21 <JenStrickland> +1 async -- I think we should have "tours of duty" where everyone serves for a spell, to cultivate empathy and connection.
18:24:27 <maryjom> +1 to Kevin - I'd be happy to mentor someone.
18:24:35 <alastairc> kevin: Mentoring might be more valuable, would anyone be able to do that?
18:24:37 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
18:24:39 <Jennie_Delisi> Suggest signing up to be a mentor for a specific quarter
18:24:44 <Chuck> ack Ben
18:24:52 <kevin> I'd be happy to mentor folks too
18:24:54 <Jeroen-Hulscher> Jeroen-Hulscher has joined #ag
18:25:00 <kevin> qq+
18:25:01 <dj> present+ Jeroen-Hulscher
18:25:05 <alastairc> Ben_Tillyer: Do we risk people having different experiences / info?
18:25:11 <Chuck> ack Kevin
18:25:11 <Zakim> kevin, you wanted to react to Ben_Tillyer
18:25:28 <alastairc> kevin: that is a challenge, needs to be oriented around certain onboarding material
18:25:36 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #ag
18:25:36 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #ag
18:26:02 <alastairc> ... make the material good, and then the mentors are leaning on that for consistency.
18:26:49 <Sheri_B-H> q+
18:27:02 <Jeroen-Hulscher> Jeroen-Hulscher has joined #ag
18:27:20 <Rachael> q+
18:27:44 <alastairc> Chuck: Haven't heard about the chunking yet? That sounded actionable.
18:28:01 <Glenda> q+
18:28:03 <Chuck> ack Sheri
18:28:18 <Ben_Tillyer> +1 to "and"
18:28:34 <Chuck> ack Rach
18:28:47 <alastairc> Sheri_B-H:  make it a sub-group AND mentors, so the senior / experienced people help with the materials, and they and others can mentor.
18:29:18 <Chuck> ack Glenda
18:29:24 <alastairc> Rachael: I think that's brilliant, should be automatable, and keeps reminding people.
18:29:36 <kevin> q+
18:29:51 <alastairc> Glenda: There's a lot of overhead in matching people etc. You need to designate a time period.
18:30:12 <Sheri_B-H> There are mentorship program tools that help with this
18:30:13 <alastairc> ... need a person co-ordinating, and saying it's there for X months.
18:30:13 <Chuck> ack Kevin
18:30:29 <alastairc> kevin: Maybe a buddy system is a better term?
18:30:32 <dj> q+ to buddy system
18:30:52 <alastairc> ... your onboard buddy, rather than formal mentor.
18:31:00 <dj> q-
18:31:15 <alastairc> ... also, want to avoid us creating more work when we've got a lot of materials on the topic already.
18:32:00 <Chuck> q+
18:32:02 <alastairc> jaunita_george: If we do that, why not create a one-stop shop of information (accordions etc) to expand on certain topics.
18:32:03 <shiestyle> shiestyle has left #ag
18:32:37 <alastairc> kevin: We have lots, need to make if findable.
18:32:47 <JenStrickland> q+
18:32:56 <Chuck> ack Jen
18:33:07 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #ag
18:33:44 <Sheri_B-H> equity
18:33:51 <alastairc> JenStrickland: Could survey with process or PWE, every group in W3C is wildly different, difficult to participate in them. Could we work with one of those groups to establish this?
18:34:16 <Sheri_B-H> Positive Workforce Environment
18:34:16 <alastairc> kevin: It's the herding cats problem.
18:34:46 <alastairc> JenStrickland: there are groups which don't use IRC, so if you ask it's weird, odd gatekeeping experience.
18:35:12 <alastairc> ... in PWA we want to help with culture. Want to make it easier for people to contribute.
18:35:21 <Chuck> ack Ch
18:35:49 <JenStrickland> *PWE v PWA. Positive Work Environment v Progressive Web Apps — I'm a huge fan of both!
18:36:03 <shadi> q+
18:36:16 <Chuck> ack Shadi
18:36:46 <Jennie_Delisi> +1 to Shadi
18:36:57 <Rachael> qq+
18:37:33 <alastairc> does anyone use this page? https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Main_Page
18:37:49 <Chuck> ack Rach
18:37:50 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to react to shadi
18:38:20 <alastairc> Rachael: We've been doing that every 3-4 months. We'll be doing that today in the next section. Would be good to know how often we should be doing this?
18:38:24 <JJ> q+
18:38:30 <Chuck> ack JJ
18:39:30 <alastairc> JJ: Also struggle with the different places things can be.  As a TF person often can't edit things.
18:41:20 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
18:41:41 <alastairc> q+ on times for feedback discussion
18:42:02 <alastairc> Chuck: I could improve in terms of when we ask for feedback.
18:42:34 <Chuck> ack Ben
18:43:08 <alastairc> Ben_Tillyer: The feedback surveys used to end a minute before the meeting. Understand the need to do that.
18:43:13 <Chuck> ack ala
18:43:13 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on times for feedback discussion
18:44:05 <dj> q+ to alastairc
18:44:53 <alastairc> alastairc: has the two-week intro then discsion process helped?
18:45:10 <kevin> s/discsion/decision/
18:45:12 <Chuck> ack dj
18:45:12 <Zakim> dj, you wanted to alastairc
18:45:22 <Jennie_Delisi> Very helpful, including the COGA review time
18:45:39 <alastairc> Rachael: We did this based on feedback from COGA, we could also frame it differently to see if a bigger overview is needed.
18:45:46 <alastairc> DJ: Yes, that process is helpfuly.
18:45:55 <alastairc> s/helpfuly/helpful
18:46:45 <alastairc> Chuck: Topic on barriers to people contributing to sub-groups. There was a comment on having a private discussion, which we can also do.
18:46:48 <Rachael> q+
18:46:57 <Chuck> ack Rach
18:47:00 <alastairc> ... we've found the sub-groups very useful, want to keep that going.
18:47:30 <alastairc> Rachael: We're going to scaling up, starting with 1, then 4, that's resolving itself.
18:47:38 <alastairc> ... we'll be opening the next sub-groups soon.
18:47:57 <alastairc> ... given our desire to make the timeline as short as possible, the more we can run at the same time the better that will work.
18:48:14 <kevin> q+ to respond to the challenge of asynchronous working in subgroups
18:48:30 <jaunita_george> +1
18:48:30 <alastairc> ... need people who can facilitator those. Time zones is an issue, so can group groups into time zones.
18:48:35 <jaunita_george> q+
18:48:41 <alastairc> ... how do we get people ready to lead these groups?
18:49:00 <Chuck> ack kevin
18:49:00 <Zakim> kevin, you wanted to respond to the challenge of asynchronous working in subgroups
18:49:51 <Chuck> ack jaun
18:49:51 <alastairc> kevin: Related to a previous topic, how do we do asyn working. So people can dip-in/out. I'd like to dig into a bit more. That will be key. Unless we work out how to deliver that, the sub-groups might not be as effective.
18:50:06 <alastairc> jaunita_george: we could use a ticketing system, pick tasks every 2 weeks and work to completion.
18:50:31 <alastairc> ... also, could we have some non-english sub-groups, with someone reporting back in english?
18:50:44 <JenStrickland> +1 to Jaunita's suggestion of subgroups in non-English
18:50:44 <Chuck> q?
18:51:21 <alastairc> q+
18:51:27 <Chuck> ack ala
18:53:09 <Sheri_B-H> q+
18:53:17 <Chuck> q+
18:53:20 <Chuck> ack Sheri
18:53:23 <maryjom> q+
18:53:23 <alastairc> Rachael: We used the time in meetings to do sub-group work. Have since been doing decisions in meeting, sub-groups out of meetings.
18:53:33 <ljoakley> q+
18:53:33 <kirkwood> +1 to meeting time for subbroups
18:53:43 <alastairc> Sheri_B-H: At work we've been using break out rooms.
18:53:50 <Chuck> ack Ch
18:53:52 <jaunita_george> ack chuck
18:53:53 <Chuck> ack maryj
18:54:04 <julierawe> q+
18:54:04 <Sheri_B-H> +1 to meeting time for subgroups
18:54:04 <kirkwood> +1 to breakouts
18:54:06 <Makoto> q+
18:54:08 <alastairc> maryjom: I liked the break-outs with the sub-groups, as I couldn't sign up for a particular group.
18:54:16 <alastairc> ... I could contribute what I could at the time.
18:54:17 <tburtin> +1 Splitting the meetings to allow time for subgroups
18:54:26 <Chuck> ack ljoak
18:54:38 <JenStrickland> +1
18:55:12 <Chuck> ack julie
18:55:12 <alastairc> ljoakley: I liked having time in the meetings for the sub-groups. It didn't feel like we were making in the separate sub-groups, but in the meeting there was cross-polination which helped resolved things.
18:55:43 <kirkwood> easier for calendering to hold the slot (w/ other time commitments)
18:55:46 <Sheri_B-H> Note: there are accessibility issues for people with hearing loss and subgroups for ASL interpreters and human captioning
18:55:49 <dj> +1 julierawe
18:55:49 <alastairc> julierawe: If you are already committing to a 2 hour meeting, then another meeting, it made it more efficient to do the sub-groups in the meetings.
18:55:54 <kirkwood> +1 to Julie
18:56:12 <tburtin> +1 to Julie Rawe
18:56:15 <Rachael> qq+
18:56:20 <alastairc> ... if there were large sub-groups split into more, our experience has been it is a small group working on our sub-group.
18:56:26 <Chuck> ack Rach
18:56:26 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to react to julierawe
18:56:53 <kirkwood> q+
18:56:56 <alastairc> Rachael: we want more groups. We've heard than the 3-8 size is good, assuming they can make it. If we get more people in, we can have more groups.
18:57:00 <Chuck> ack Mak
18:57:07 <JenStrickland> q+
18:57:16 <Chuck> q+ to move on to the "big" topic
18:57:36 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
18:57:36 <alastairc> Makoto: It would be great if we can have non-english sub-group, some people don't work well in English but are very passionate.
18:57:42 <Chuck> ack kirk
18:58:11 <Rain> Rain has joined #ag
18:58:17 <Rain> present+
18:58:17 <alastairc> kirkwood: I think things have been going very well with the zoom breakouts. We should take advantage of this.
18:58:19 <Chuck> ack JenS
18:58:20 <Sheri_B-H> Yes, but if you have two d/Deaf participants and only one interpreter and they are going into different breakout rooms that causes a resource problem
18:58:37 <kirkwood> +1 to Julie
18:58:53 <alastairc> JenStrickland: I have loved having the breakouts in the tuesday meetings. Would like to split the meeting so it's part whole and then split into groups.
18:59:05 <alastairc> ... some of our employers don't give it much time.
18:59:06 <Chuck> ack Ch
18:59:06 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to move on to the "big" topic
18:59:09 <jaunita_george> q+
18:59:25 <alastairc> JenStrickland: One challenge is FOMO, as I want to work on 3 at once.
18:59:39 <dj> +1 JenStrickland time
18:59:41 <Chuck> ack Ben
18:59:54 <tburtin> +1 to JenStrickland all of us are limited on time unfortunately
19:00:12 <dj> q+ to language subgroups
19:00:15 <Sheri_B-H> You can only assign one manual captioner, which is the problem I've run into in the past: https://support.zoom.com/hc/en/article?id=zm_kb&sysparm_article=KB0062490#:~:text=If%20you%20want%20a%20participant,breakout%20session%20with%20closed%20captioning.
19:00:36 <Chuck> ack jau
19:00:51 <alastairc> Ben_Tillyer: Caution with sub-groups on a particular language, if we had 4 english groups, you'd need 4 non-english sub-groups.  Not sure, but don't want people to be isolated.
19:01:00 <Chuck> ack dj
19:01:00 <Zakim> dj, you wanted to language subgroups
19:01:22 <alastairc> DJ: one solution might be to focus more on async work, then make them hybrid.
19:02:59 <alastairc> Chuck: the big question is on velocity. Currently we are hitting the milestones we have on the project plan.
19:03:22 <alastairc> ... the other aspect I'll bring up is that we're gathering data on the velocity.
19:03:43 <Rachael> q+
19:03:47 <alastairc> ... when we get those through, we can calculate a velocity. If we ramp up, it brings the time donw.
19:04:11 <alastairc> Rachael: We've got a plan, we're doing the sub-group work. We've got two guidelines ready for the next publication.
19:04:19 <Chuck> ack Rach
19:04:20 <Glenda> Is this the WCAG 3 Timeline / Project Plan? https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_3_Timeline
19:04:32 <alastairc> ... but, we haven't taken on end-to-end. If we walk one all the way through, we'll be able to estimate.
19:04:49 <alastairc> ... one of the goals of this charter is to create a realistic schedule.
19:05:11 <Glenda> q+
19:05:17 <alastairc> Chuck: So the question is, what would be too long? We've discussed ways of improving the veolicty.
19:05:20 <Chuck> ack Glenda
19:05:46 <dj> q+ to how long is too long?
19:06:05 <Makoto> For non-English subgroup, I think it should be a sub-group for a sub-group discussing language related issues such as implied meaning, reflow, color contrast, text spacing, etc. Main language for our group should be English.
19:06:06 <alastairc> Glenda: On this charter period, I'm optimistic. We have been working on this a long time, but I'm seeing the dawn. I want to continue with this plan, see the velocity.
19:06:20 <Chuck> ack dj
19:06:20 <Zakim> dj, you wanted to how long is too long?
19:06:24 <alastairc> q+ on velocity and types of work.
19:06:43 <alastairc> DJ: If other companies start stepping in, that's too long.
19:06:47 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
19:06:49 <Rachael> scribe+
19:07:26 <Rachael> alastair: To be fair to previous chairs, when you get to the final stage with finalized normalized language, it takes a Lot of time. Right now we are at a formative stage. We can move alot more quickly in this environment.
19:07:30 <Chuck> ack ala
19:07:30 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on velocity and types of work.
19:08:02 <Chuck> ack ben
19:08:09 <Rachael> My hope is that we do that and expand out. Get all the guidelines and outcomes to the refining stage. Then timelines become more difficult to predict. I think theres a good chance to get to that point rather quickly
19:08:23 <alastairc> Ben_Tillyer: I know there's pressure from some people / members on timelines. Does the W3C have a view on it?
19:08:35 <MelanieP> MelanieP has joined #ag
19:08:43 <Glenda> q+
19:08:50 <MelanieP> q+
19:09:14 <alastairc> kevin: The short answer is no. The W3C is the host, it doesn't generally dictate that. There are some provisions about seeing work happening.
19:09:20 <Chuck> ack Glenda
19:09:55 <dj> q+ to Glenda
19:10:05 <alastairc> Glenda: Regarding other orgs splitting off. I think that danger exists, but I don't know what other orgs would do, e.g. ETSI.
19:10:11 <Chuck> ack Melanie
19:10:19 <shadi> q+
19:10:42 <Ben_Tillyer> ETSI = European Telecommunications Standards Institute
19:10:50 <alastairc> MelanieP: Wtih AC hat on, other working groups send a lot more time at CR getting real world feedback. Going through 2.1 and 2.2, we seemed to rush that through.
19:11:28 <alastairc> ... we need to get real-world experience with things.
19:11:35 <alastairc> q+ on real world experience and CR
19:11:36 <Chuck> ack dj
19:11:37 <Zakim> dj, you wanted to Glenda
19:11:40 <maryjom> q+
19:11:56 <alastairc> DJ: Less concerned about member orgs, but other orgs.
19:11:59 <Sheri_B-H> q+
19:12:05 <Chuck> ack shadi
19:12:57 <alastairc> shadi: I don't speak for ETSI. The threat is possible, not aware of any particular proposals. Have seen places like Canada use EN 301 but removing parts.
19:13:17 <alastairc> ... this group has come a long way, and there's a lot of harmonisation along the way.
19:13:26 <dj> q+ to moving fast
19:13:47 <Chuck> ack ala
19:13:47 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on real world experience and CR
19:13:47 <alastairc> ... it's a risk that will increase unless we address certain issues.
19:14:56 <Rachael> alastairc: About real world experience and CR bit. We often have a much different audience than others in W3C. Its a bit more managable compared to the wide audience we have. I agree we need real world experience and testing earlier in the process. I'd like to make sure that we get the experience much sooner than that stage.
19:15:01 <Chuck> ack maryj
19:15:03 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
19:15:07 <Rachael> We also have the problem that people jump on our work much to early. Not a common problem.
19:15:16 <MelanieP> q+
19:15:25 <Glenda> q+
19:15:26 <Chuck> q+ to share what I think I'm hearing
19:15:29 <alastairc> maryjom: Also think we should get implementations really early, to vet the requirements. That can shake out some of these language problems.
19:15:36 <Rachael> q+to say we've been discussing targeted questions and some kind of town hall conversation for each publication
19:15:37 <Chuck> q?
19:15:53 <jaunita_george> jaunita_george has joined #ag
19:15:55 <alastairc> ... looking at WCAG2ICT, we found some oddities in how things are worded.
19:15:58 <jaunita_george> present_
19:16:02 <jaunita_george> Present+
19:16:05 <alastairc> ... asking those questions earlier on.
19:16:07 <Chuck> ack Sheri
19:16:50 <Chuck> ack dj
19:16:50 <Zakim> dj, you wanted to moving fast
19:16:52 <alastairc> Sheri_B-H: IAAP did their own Maturity model, after ours started. I didn't find out until it's done. If there's money to be made, if you define the standard, we're the only ones qualified to test this standard. The more it overlaps with commercialisation the more likely it is to hapen.
19:17:15 <Ben_Tillyer>  Forbes article of Evinced's Mobile Content Accessibility Guidelines: https://www.forbes.com/sites/gusalexiou/2024/03/27/evinced-proposes-long-overdue-mobile-content-accessibility-guidelines/
19:17:15 <Rain> q+
19:17:22 <alastairc> DJ: In order to avoid other orgs, the solution isn't to move quickly, but to move regularly.
19:17:37 <alastairc> ... then industry sees we're making progress, and being thorough.
19:17:38 <Chuck> ack Ben
19:18:37 <jaunita_george> q+
19:18:39 <alastairc> Ben_Tillyer: Maybe we need to recruit a different sort of member. Someone who doesn't want to be part of the meetings, but a scrutiny committee of our work?  E.g. provide them early access, they might jump at it.
19:18:41 <Sheri_B-H> q+
19:18:53 <alastairc> q+ on early access and perhaps running webinar for that.
19:19:21 <Chuck> ack MelanieP
19:19:21 <dj> q+ to evince & wcag
19:19:34 <JJ> Ben_Tillyer Illai Zeevi of Evinced is now part of the Mobile Accessibility Task Force - But yes especially in mobile field I see many companies making their own standards
19:19:48 <alastairc> MelanieP: Difference between implementations we do before publication, and then real world testing.
19:20:08 <alastairc> ... to soon vs too late, our customers are asking us whether it's ready to go.
19:20:40 <alastairc> ... what if  we had a "last draft", that's ready to go to CR but now we really want you to look at it.
19:20:53 <alastairc> ... we could then say to clients, go for it, and let us know.
19:21:01 <Chuck> ack Glenda
19:21:32 <alastairc> Glenda: concept of an implemention proof draft, ready for implementation and feedback.
19:22:12 <alastairc> ... e.g. when salesforce wanted to use 2.1 before final, which is really expensive. One of the things we wanted to do got dropped. If we tell them it's for kicking the tires.
19:23:18 <Chuck> ack Ch
19:23:18 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to share what I think I'm hearing
19:23:22 <alastairc> ... at that implementation proof draft, with ACT, we find more issues when at the lowest level.
19:24:09 <alastairc> Chuck: two tracks, time & speed track, and other aspect is last-draft
19:24:27 <Rain> q- was going to reinforce DJ's idea of publish smaller chunks regularly
19:24:45 <Chuck> ack Rach
19:24:45 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to say we've been discussing targeted questions and some kind of town hall conversation for each publication
19:24:52 <Chuck> zakim, close queue
19:24:52 <Zakim> ok, Chuck, the speaker queue is closed
19:25:05 <Ben_Tillyer> "stable" rather than "final" once comments have slowed down sufficiently?
19:25:22 <alastairc> Rachael: We put out a publication before which we didn't push hard.
19:25:42 <alastairc> ... we also have a maturity system so some content will be done long before the whole thing is ready.
19:26:29 <alastairc> ... E.g. we take focus-appearance all the way to the end, or a colour contrast chunk that could be mature well before the other areas.
19:26:33 <Chuck> ack Rain
19:27:24 <alastairc> Rain: I wanted to re-inforce this concept, the industry is moving faster than before. Is there a way of saying, WCAG 3 is being built and these bits are ready. Can we push these things out?
19:27:31 <Chuck> ack jau
19:27:38 <alastairc> ... companies think about normative content difererntly.
19:28:01 <alastairc> jaunita_george: Can we push some things out part of wcag 2, normatively.
19:28:11 <Chuck> ack sheri
19:28:58 <Glenda> Don’t take backwards compatibiilty away in the 2.x series….I’m totally cool with breaking backwards compabitiblity at 3.x
19:29:06 <kirkwood> +1
19:29:13 <alastairc> Sheri_B-H: Everyone agrees that diversity of thought is a good thing. But, we are not a diverse group based on restrictions of membership. For beta testers, we need to focus on people who we wish were here but are not.
19:29:17 <Chuck> ala
19:29:20 <Chuck> ack ala
19:29:20 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on early access and perhaps running webinar for that.
19:29:35 <kevin> scribe+
19:29:35 <JJ> +1 Glenda
19:29:49 <Rachael> alastair: Like the idea of final draft. Can we run our own finalization process before we enter the W3C finalization process
19:29:56 <kevin> scribe-
19:30:06 <JenStrickland> q+ to support Sher_B-H and suggest re bring here people who are not here
19:30:24 <JJ> q?
19:30:27 <Rachael> ....regarding the people who are not here, there is forming the subgroup and getting the experts into it. Then the kind of beta testing, we will be starting an early version.
19:30:48 <Rachael> Maybe we can run a quarterly webinar for the public. Talk to what to test to share out for people who are interested.
19:30:49 <Chuck> ack dj
19:30:50 <Zakim> dj, you wanted to evince & wcag
19:31:18 <alastairc> dj: We aren't doing everything in public, it's available but you have to know where to look.
19:31:42 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #ag
19:32:12 <alastairc> ... need to be more transparent with industry.
19:32:31 <alastairc> ... it takes a lot of effort to do what we're doing, but it might just mean they do it poorly.
19:32:55 <alastairc> ... also, could incorporate an open source development model in some ways.
19:33:08 <alastairc> Chuck: We have a last word from Rachael.
19:33:55 <alastairc> Rachael: When we come back we'll be doing a conformance exercise. We're going to facilitate this exercise. Please be back on time.
19:33:59 <dj> Zakim, agenda?
19:33:59 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
19:34:00 <Zakim> 1. 9-9:30 Housekeeping and Introductions [from Chuck]
19:34:00 <Zakim> 2. 9:30-10:30 Retrospective Data Gathering [from Chuck]
19:34:00 <Zakim> 3. 10:30-10:45 Snacks [from Chuck]
19:34:00 <Zakim> 4. 10:45-12:30 Retrospective Brainstorming Ideas [from Chuck]
19:34:00 <Zakim> 5. 12:30-1:30 (13:30) Lunch [from Chuck]
19:34:00 <Zakim> 6. 1:30 (13:30)-4:00 (16:00) Conformance Exercise Pt. 1 [from Chuck]
19:34:00 <Zakim> 7. 4:15 (16:15)-4:30 (16:30) Snacks [from Chuck]
19:34:02 <Zakim> 8. 4:30 (16:30)-5:30 (17:30) Conformance Exercise Pt. 2 [from Chuck]
19:50:25 <Justine> Justine has joined #ag
20:07:41 <alastairc> rssagent, make minutes
20:09:01 <alastairc> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:09:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/23-ag-minutes.html alastairc
20:17:43 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #ag
20:19:05 <JackieFei> JackieFei has joined #ag
20:25:21 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #ag
20:29:51 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #ag
20:29:53 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #ag
20:31:36 <fbedora> fbedora has joined #ag
20:31:45 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #ag
20:34:34 <jaunita_george> jaunita_george has joined #ag
20:35:06 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #ag
20:35:18 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #ag
20:35:43 <Glenda> scribe+
20:35:55 <jaunita_george6> jaunita_george6 has joined #ag
20:35:57 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick_H_Lauke has joined #ag
20:36:01 <jaunita_george6> Present+
20:36:06 <JenStrickland> JenStrickland has joined #ag
20:36:08 <julierawe> present+
20:36:09 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+
20:36:10 <JenStrickland> present+
20:36:16 <Rain> Rain has joined #ag
20:36:33 <tburtin> present+
20:36:33 <Glenda> Rachael:  Trying out a conformance exercise (the 2 conformance models).  1st step is to figure out how good/bad a site is.  There is a fake site we will be working with.
20:36:50 <MelanieP> MelanieP has joined #ag
20:36:55 <alastairc> Previous conformance conversations pres: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17VJvnm5UQW4WUzIoo9QNPVGfePgaZa8ifZWs-wtmv7E/edit
20:37:08 <alastairc> Current draft of WCAG 3 https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/
20:37:18 <alastairc> Requirements for WCAG 3: https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0-requirements/
20:37:29 <alastairc> Draft explainer: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uWyhQRNdiz3-m5j5kVur8CrYVni5_Gihn6aKCmyukEo/edit
20:38:25 <alastairc> Museum of broken things (test site): https://w3c.github.io/wai-conformance-model-test/
20:38:42 <alastairc> Recording sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dv06n-R9rcYEB9d12lXwwss4AJsmW3UtlcNxcSMtdvE/edit?gid=0#gid=0
20:38:42 <Glenda> Rachael:  we will test using the “museum of broken things)
20:39:57 <Glenda> Alastair, can you put in the link for the presentation that Rachael has on screen right now?
20:40:51 <alastairc> TPAC 2024: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1uKYENZQpTIAjs7x762kFjC_U7CWY6PLfpl8lO7MABBs/edit#slide=id.g30416ca9379_3_108
20:40:59 <JJ> JJ has joined #ag
20:41:52 <GreggVan> q+
20:42:03 <alastairc> agenda?
20:42:12 <alastairc> zakim, take up item 6
20:42:12 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- 1:30 (13:30)-4:00 (16:00) Conformance Exercise Pt. 1 -- taken up [from Chuck]
20:42:27 <alastairc> q+ GreggVan
20:42:45 <Glenda> From Slide 14 of the TPAC 2024 deck that Rachael is explaining the basic proposed structure:  Outcomes are more specific, outcome based, closer to SC
20:42:46 <Chuck> ack Gregg
20:42:46 <Glenda> Assertions are clear and documented statement from a person or organization about a procedure.
20:42:47 <Glenda> Outcomes and Assertions link to How To Documents
20:42:48 <Glenda> Methods are technology specific
20:43:15 <Glenda> Gregg:  assersation is something you did, or it could be a process of something you do (like a policy)
20:43:50 <kenneth> s/assersation/assertion/
20:44:53 <shadi> shadi has joined #ag
20:45:08 <Glenda> Rachael:  moving to slide 15:  Outcome Levels:  1)  Prerequistie (small subest)  - Safety Issues, Needed for AT to work, likely to prevent task completion even with ideal AT support.
20:45:09 <Glenda> 2)  Baseline (larger subset) - Author provided methods that aren’t currently met by AT, applicable to all sites and products. 3)  Enhanced - Can be met in other ways, or may be domain specific.
20:45:27 <dj> q+ to what was A?
20:45:55 <GreggVan> q+
20:45:58 <Glenda> DJ:  What was the purpose behind A/AA?
20:46:00 <Chuck> ack dj
20:46:00 <Zakim> dj, you wanted to what was A?
20:46:28 <JenStrickland> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1uKYENZQpTIAjs7x762kFjC_U7CWY6PLfpl8lO7MABBs/edit#slide=id.g30416ca9379_3_108
20:46:59 <Glenda> Gregg:  Difference between A and AA - in the end, the answer was if there wasn’t a consensus to put it in A, but there was a consensus to put it in AA…
20:47:15 <alastairc> DJ - this is the long version: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.x_Priority_levels_discussion
20:47:19 <alastairc> scribe-
20:47:20 <Patrick_H_Lauke> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/3889 for the bored
20:47:51 <Glenda> Gregg:  Some people believed that only A would be required…so that is why some were pushed to AA.
20:48:00 <alastairc> q?
20:48:03 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
20:49:58 <Glenda> Gregg:  Even the AT we have today CAN do it…it will change over time…so between Prerequisite and Baseline…things would change over time.  Need to think about that.
20:50:01 <Patrick_H_Lauke> AI can't infer author intent for many things ... so also won't be a saviour for everything...
20:52:02 <Glenda> Rachael:  2 possible models (slide 13):  Model Baseline plus % based levels:  Level 1: Baseline (PreReq + Baseline)
20:52:02 <Glenda> Level 2: Baseline + 50% of Enhanced Outcomes
20:52:03 <Glenda> Level 3: Baseline + 90% of Enhanced Outcome
20:52:22 <Glenda> Other possible model:  Prerequisite, Baseline & % of enhanced
20:52:34 <Glenda> Level 1: Prerequisite
20:52:34 <Glenda> Level 2: Baseline
20:52:35 <Glenda> Level 3: Prerequisite + Baseline  + 50% of Enhanced Outcomes
20:52:42 <Chuck> q?
20:52:59 <shadi> q+
20:53:02 <Glenda> We could do very different variations where we could go from here
20:53:26 <Chuck> ack shadi
20:53:35 <Glenda> Shadi:  What is the definition of percent?
20:54:02 <Glenda> Rachael:  It is the amount of criteria met.  (and we will need to discuss “not applicable”)
20:54:27 <Glenda> Shadi:  We have 85 outcomes (conceptually) - is the scope the page, or the site?
20:54:41 <Glenda> Rachael:  The scope of conformance you are claiming.
20:54:42 <Chuck> q+
20:54:59 <tburtin> tburtin has joined #ag
20:55:27 <Chuck> ack
20:55:30 <alastairc> ack Chuck
20:56:02 <Glenda> Chuck:  when you saw 50%….it is 50%  of the enhanced outcomes
20:57:50 <Glenda> Rachael:  In WCAG 3 we have the concept of a conditional test (may only apply in a certain language, or in a certain situation).  I18n is working on some of those ideas.
20:58:53 <Glenda> Rachael going over instructions, then break into groups, then do the exercise (instructions start on slide 17) of this deck: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1uKYENZQpTIAjs7x762kFjC_U7CWY6PLfpl8lO7MABBs/edit#slide=id.g303dcba0dc8_1_30
20:59:23 <dj> q+ to sitewide
21:00:11 <dj> q-
21:00:30 <Glenda> DJ:  sitewide issues?  Treat your subsection as if it were an ENTIRE site.
21:00:33 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #ag
21:00:46 <maryjom> present+
21:01:12 <Sheri_B-H> Sheri_B-H has joined #ag
21:01:57 <shadi> ambulatory = physical?
21:02:05 <julierawe> q+
21:02:20 <Chuck> ack julie
21:02:55 <MelanieP> q+ to ask about ambulatory
21:02:56 <shadi> q+
21:02:56 <dj> q+ to other motor disabilities
21:03:02 <Chuck> ack melanie
21:03:02 <Zakim> MelanieP, you wanted to ask about ambulatory
21:03:10 <dj> q-
21:03:17 <Glenda> Melanie:  Ambulatory:  can we call it fine motor?
21:03:19 <Chuck> ack shadi
21:04:41 <Glenda> Shadi:  combo of visual and auditory?  what about visual and motor (which is common)?  and other common combos?
21:04:53 <tburtin> Complex Disabilities
21:04:53 <julierawe> +1 to Shadi's comments
21:04:58 <Jeanne> Jeanne has joined #ag
21:05:35 <Chuck> q?
21:05:55 <dj> q+ to what about aural+motor then?
21:06:00 <Glenda> Jean: I like having visual + auditory where the solutions can be unique.
21:06:22 <shadi> s/Jean/Jeanne
21:06:27 <Glenda> DJ: Speech and Motor would be a common combo
21:06:32 <Chuck> q?
21:06:33 <Chuck> ack dj
21:06:33 <Zakim> dj, you wanted to what about aural+motor then?
21:06:47 <Glenda> Alastair:  Let’s add an intersectional disabilities categories
21:08:09 <JenStrickland> q+
21:08:46 <Chuck> ack Jen
21:08:56 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #ag
21:09:24 <Rachel> present+ Rachel_Yager
21:09:24 <Glenda> Jenn:  Intersectional Disabilities create stronger barriers (so you need to consider the compounding impact)
21:09:54 <JJ> Intersectional or Multiple Disabilities. Keep naming consistent with https://www.w3.org/WAI/people-use-web/abilities-barriers/#more-on-diverse-abilities-and-barriers ?
21:09:55 <Glenda> q+
21:10:01 <Chuck> ack Glenda
21:10:10 <kirkwood> intersectional: what disabilities are intersecting?
21:10:22 <alastairc> It is a bucket for any that you come across.
21:10:28 <Chuck> q?
21:10:50 <Glenda> Glenda:  Recommend Intersectional Disabilities (acknowledging that there are compounding impacts)
21:11:01 <kirkwood> k
21:11:11 <jaunita_george> q+
21:12:12 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
21:12:15 <Chuck> ack jau
21:12:20 <Glenda> Rachael:  we will gather data on things that you experts disagree on for later processing
21:12:42 <Chuck> ack Ben
21:13:03 <Glenda> Ben:  do you want us to report technical a11y issues (that fail a standard) but don’t have real world impact on disabilities?
21:13:55 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #ag
21:14:06 <Glenda> Rachael:  I want you to rate how accessible YOU think this site (subsection) is for each of these disability types
21:14:43 <Glenda> Rachael:  then we will compare our TPAC findings to what the Chairs discovered when they used the WCAG 3.0 model
21:14:47 <kenneth> q+
21:14:55 <alastairc> Presentation has the links: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1uKYENZQpTIAjs7x762kFjC_U7CWY6PLfpl8lO7MABBs/edit#slide=id.g303dcba0dc8_1_36
21:15:00 <Chuck> ack kenneth
21:15:21 <Glenda> Kenneth:  Exercise here is NOT using WCAG 3 models?  Yes.
21:15:30 <Jeroen-hulscher> Jeroen-hulscher has joined #ag
21:15:37 <alastairc> Test side: https://w3c.github.io/wai-conformance-model-test/museum/collections/home/
21:15:37 <JJ> q?
21:15:52 <tburtin> tburtin has joined #ag
21:15:56 <alastairc> Reporting sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dv06n-R9rcYEB9d12lXwwss4AJsmW3UtlcNxcSMtdvE/edit?gid=1368641008#gid=1368641008
21:16:36 <Glenda> Rachael:  This site has a lot of accessibility breaks that have flashing, strobing and movement.  Doing a demo now.  If you have a concern, do not look a the screen now.  If you have challenges with issues, do not work on the home screen group.
21:17:32 <alastairc> s/ This site has a lot of accessibility/ This site has certain areas with accessibility
21:19:21 <kenneth> q+ RE spreadsheet
21:19:24 <julierawe> q+
21:19:29 <Chuck> ack kenneth
21:19:29 <Zakim> kenneth, you wanted to spreadsheet
21:19:47 <Chuck> ack Julie
21:19:58 <Glenda> Julie:  You don’t want us to leave anything blank?
21:20:15 <dj> q+
21:20:19 <Glenda> Rachael:  Make your best judgement, then in the group, you can decide amongst yourselves.
21:20:29 <Chuck> ack dj
21:20:46 <Glenda> DJ:  Group score - is it an average?  or a consensus?
21:20:51 <dj> Zakim, agenda?
21:20:51 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
21:20:52 <Zakim> 1. 9-9:30 Housekeeping and Introductions [from Chuck]
21:20:52 <Zakim> 2. 9:30-10:30 Retrospective Data Gathering [from Chuck]
21:20:52 <Zakim> 3. 10:30-10:45 Snacks [from Chuck]
21:20:52 <Zakim> 4. 10:45-12:30 Retrospective Brainstorming Ideas [from Chuck]
21:20:53 <Zakim> 5. 12:30-1:30 (13:30) Lunch [from Chuck]
21:20:53 <Zakim> 6. 1:30 (13:30)-4:00 (16:00) Conformance Exercise Pt. 1 [from Chuck]
21:20:53 <Zakim> 7. 4:15 (16:15)-4:30 (16:30) Snacks [from Chuck]
21:20:53 <Zakim> 8. 4:30 (16:30)-5:30 (17:30) Conformance Exercise Pt. 2 [from Chuck]
21:20:58 <Glenda> Rachael:  not an average
21:21:37 <JJ> Can I get editing rights for the sheet: janjaap@abra.nl
21:22:04 <alastairc> shared
21:28:00 <Glenda> Chuck:  Exercise got to 4pm (for indivdual work)
21:28:28 <jeroen-hulscher> jeroen-hulscher has joined #ag
21:29:28 <MJ> MJ has joined #ag
21:29:46 <jeroen-hulscher> jeroen-hulscher has joined #ag
21:30:49 <jeroen-hulscher> Could anyone we be so kind to share the slides again, I got disconnected and lost history (will fix this for tomorrow)
21:32:38 <Jeanne> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1uKYENZQpTIAjs7x762kFjC_U7CWY6PLfpl8lO7MABBs/
21:33:26 <jeroen-hulscher> Thank you, Jeanne :)
21:48:33 <jeroen> jeroen has joined #ag
21:51:18 <jeroen> present+
21:51:51 <Ben_Tillyer> Example card numbers: https://docs.adyen.com/development-resources/testing/test-card-numbers/
21:53:10 <fbedora> fbedora has joined #ag
22:20:06 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #ag
22:32:22 <Rachael> Here is a link to the list of intentional breaks. It will not be the full list and we would appreciate it if you list things you found during your review. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FIsjQbSftMYohHTno-2VkO2MCX6WDuIkvfMiNUL2ZgY/edit#heading=h.e776ibgabiog
22:36:44 <Chuck> q?
22:36:51 <Glenda> Rachael:  Moving to Group work as described on Slide 24 of this deck: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1uKYENZQpTIAjs7x762kFjC_U7CWY6PLfpl8lO7MABBs/edit#slide=id.g303dcba0dc8_1_89
22:40:34 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick_H_Lauke has joined #ag
23:04:22 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #ag
23:05:14 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #ag
23:11:56 <shiestyl_> shiestyl_ has joined #ag
23:12:24 <Rachael> Be back at 30 minutes after the hour
23:15:43 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #ag
23:32:08 <JackieFei> JackieFei has joined #ag
23:38:40 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #ag
23:51:52 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #ag
23:51:56 <maryjom> scribe+
23:52:05 <JJ> JJ has joined #ag
23:52:24 <maryjom> agenda?
23:52:27 <jaunita_george> jaunita_george has joined #ag
23:52:31 <Chuck> TOPIC:  Conformance Exercise
23:52:32 <jaunita_george> Present+
23:52:36 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 8
23:52:36 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- 4:30 (16:30)-5:30 (17:30) Conformance Exercise Pt. 2 -- taken up [from Chuck]
23:53:46 <Chuck> q+
23:53:51 <Chuck> ack Ch
23:54:10 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #ag
23:54:16 <MelanieP> MelanieP has joined #ag
23:54:17 <maryjom> DJ: Read out group's ratings on Gift Shop and checkout from the spreadsheet.
23:54:32 <Rain> Rain has joined #ag
23:54:42 <maryjom> Rachael: what were issue that stood out?
23:56:09 <maryjom> shari: Issues with cookie banners, with notification. Lots of conversations about magnification vs. screen reader
23:57:15 <maryjom> rain: Found that it was hard to pick a score based on a blanket disability. Could have had a more nuanced score if they were broken down within that category.
23:57:43 <maryjom> ... scores migrated to a worse score when adding together scores.
23:58:28 <maryjom> DJ: Read out scores for glass collection and t-shirt collection
23:58:53 <maryjom> jen: glass collection run through screen reader - experience was overwhelming.
23:59:27 <maryjom> ...should we be evaluating on user experience?