Meeting minutes
Agenda
fantasai: just published FPWD of Values Level 5
Action Items
gb, list open actions with label css
<gb> Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #116, #16, #11
#116
<gb> Action 116 sort out the various categories of things that get autospaced with koji (on frivoal, fantasai) due 2024-08-27
#16
<gb> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) due 1 Jan 2024
#11
<gb> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) due 18 Jul 2023
florian: this group was troubled with google shipping text wrap style... think it's done
… might be related, long vs. shorthand for the property for pretty line wrapping
Info Share and Progress Reports
richard: v16 of Unicode Core Spec has been released and (yay!) it's in HTML
florian: will they keep this online?
richard: this is the future
<fantasai> CSS Values L5 Logical Positioning Syntax
fantasai: active work on text-box-trim stuff in Level 3
<fantasai> https://
fantasai: this has I18N impact because we don't have metrics for a lot of writing systems
<fantasai> https://
fantasai: the values allows are what we can pull from opentype
<fantasai> https://
florian: we've been pointing out gaps in the metrics for years
… e.g. x-height equiv in hebrew etc etc.
fantasai: maybe I18N could prod opentype to get around to fixing
<fantasai> MicrosoftDocs/
<gb> Issue 240 OpenType needs metrics for Hebrew, Thai, etc. (by fantasai) [enhancement] [OpenType spec]
fantasai: for each writing system what are the relevant edges that a language/system uses/names
… often the baseline matches alphabetic baseline
… but what about the others? give us something to work with, makes it clear to opentype how to define the metric
… they don't have to figure out what it is
florian: hints to synthesize the metric
fantasai: it's easy to look at hebrew and see that "here's a really strong 'edge'"
… Thai has a similar strong top edge
… but other systems don't have a clear
… like some indics... not clear where people want to align to
… hardest might be Arabic
… this is a "top edge" so if you align text and image this is where you want to hit or if two boxes in two scripts, look like top edges are algined
florian: might be plural, like cap height and x-height
fantasai: cap height for top unless special
addison: what are we doing here?
florian: not a simple action item
addison: something to documet the problem, like a short article?
fantasai: writing up the problem together might help
addison: typography index???
fantasai: add "how do you align things to text" "how do you align objects to text"
… a lot are answered by font designer
florian: if you have drop caps, how do you measure
florian: top edge of text if you want it to look good
richard: just use baseline?
fantasai: if two sizes of fonts, you want to top edge
florian: or an aside box, the top of the box with the top of the text. in english it's capheight
… for olde-fashioned typesetting they just nudge it, but for automatic no such thing
richard: why don't we write a dicussion document on github
fantasai: if you have a good place to land, people can include in e.g. blog posts
ACTION: florian,fantasai: add dicussion document to i18n-discuss repo of seeking font metrics for various writing systems
<gb> Created action #120
line clamp and approach to ellipsis insertion
addison: we discussed it in i18n call and I added a comment
florian: problem of what to elide and then where to put the ellipsis
… maybe it does along writing mode fo the block
… you suggest first elided character
… maybe missed we want to elide in logical order
… but browsers don't want to do that
… they chop the overflow in physical order
<florian> w3c/
<gb> Issue 10844 [css-overflow] Line-clamp and approaches to ellipsis insertion (by frivoal) [css-overflow-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-alreq]
ACTION: addison: add additional comment to css 10844 to emphasize logical truncation
<gb> Created action #121
Support automatically localized counters
https://
<gb> Issue 7959 [css-counter-styles-3] Support automatically localized counters (by pols12) [i18n-tracker] [css-counter-styles-4]
richard: this was a discussion about making it possible to... tab had been discussing this...
<r12a> w3c/
richard: there was a proposed grammar, seemed like getting some forward movement and then just stopped
florian: seems interesting, maybe poking tab is enough? there was an agenda+ that was removed, maybe just put it back to put into people's memory
… a few options, problem is getting impl interest
fantasai: think also question of how important is this when can use language selectors to get this in most cases
… thats a mechanism we already have
… don't build into default UA stylesheet
… problems with numeric system to switch to
… that would break compat with existing webpages
… only good for new pages that want to enable translation
… have to know it exists
richard: original raisers were e.g. wikipedia, it's a pain to maintain, be nice to have somethig simpler
florian: looking to opt into this
… give me 'numeric' and browser figure it out
richard: elika mentioned there are different types for specific languages
… not as a default for the browser but for in-house publication, if we want an alphabetic system for a list which can be defined for a given language
florian: my impression was this was your answer, can we just say 'numeric' with overrides but just do right thing
fantasai: have to set direciton property correctly
richard: read what he said carefully, ask wasn't exactly what he wanted so describe and at some point he agreed
… like 16th of june
fantasai: yes he "want's browser to figure it out"
… if lower-alpha => ja, what to use? hira? etc.
<fantasai> w3c/
<gb> Issue 7959 [css-counter-styles-3] Support automatically localized counters (by pols12) [i18n-tracker] [css-counter-styles-4]
richard: if I described is what I want, can have your own styles in there, it's not defaults it's managing xyz styling, then it knows which kind of counter style to apply
fantasai: would like to have the same stylesheet for many languages
… (reads comment) don't want to figure out which counter style is right for each writing system
… don't have the ability to do that which will actually be correct
florian: do in reverse what is inverse of iroha order?
richard: where is that quote
(dicussion about this comment w3c/
richard: agree with what you're saying, fantasai
florian: tab's excited or was, can see if still excited
… more convenient than language selectors, but not that much nore. hard to get browsers onboard?
richard: most useful for people with "lots" of language sites
florian: prod tab? WG? or just let it sit?
richard: think it would be worth not just abandoning, it might not work, prod someone?
florian: put agenda+ back on?
fantasai: could do that
… not sure I'd prioritize impl-wise
… it's a simple proposal
<r12a> w3c/
<gb> Issue 65 Make some local counter styles the default for some of the languages (by ebraminio)
rchard: another issue raised ^^
… might be connect
fantasai: logic positioning syntax seems more important
… this is not the highest priority
richard: easy to do and a cool little feature
florian: seems like a 'neat' idea but not a strong urge
… if you want to push it, fine, but I probably woudln't
florian: raise with tab first, I think
fantasai: not a _bad_ idea, but lacking infinite resources...
richard: prod tab, decide what to do, before closing or with right priority
TPAC Planning
https://
https://
addison: how can we best help you make progress?
fantasai: syntax for logical shorthands
florian: whole story about auto-spacing between ideograph and alpha etc etc. talked to Unicode
(various discussion)
richard: we tend to get stuck on the gnarly things
… nice to have a 2-tier system, if we could get quicker things
… nice for I18N to show progress
florian: is khmer thing agenda+ in css-land?
richard: don't think so
<r12a> w3c/
<gb> Issue 10036 [css-fonts] Add generic font family, Khmer Mul (by r12a) [css-fonts-4] [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-sealreq] [css-fonts-5]
florian: are there fonts preinstalled?
… plural of these fonts installed in some OSes so saying "Mul" would do something
richard: probably not, but people use this a lot
florian: it's easier if this is the case vs. not
… in list of generics, do you have some that match the condtion
richard: have to have a look
… accepted nastaliq and that's in a similar boat
<r12a> https://
fantasai: text spacing trim, text auto-space is moving forward,
… so any issue there
… text box trim and text fit in inline module
… not too much to worry about there except missing metrics for many WS's
richard: since it's tpac, writing-mode sideways values
… promised "very quickly"
florian: ff did way back
fantasai: webkit has a partial
… need to fix some minor bugs but also actual part where we make the text go sideways
… like to have working
richard: one of my higher priority items
fantasai: if WK then Goog would feel pressure
<r12a> https://
addison: big room or hallway?
richard: always the pipeline ^^
ACTION: addison: reach out to alan to see if we can schedule i18n/css to morning
<gb> Created action #122