13:41:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:41:43 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-irc
13:41:50 <addison> Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS
13:41:55 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:42:00 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a1f2b55d-d2c7-40a1-a3e7-4c5eb70aa55e/20240917T070000/
13:42:00 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:42:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda
13:42:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:42:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share and Progress Reports
13:42:05 <agendabot> agenda+ Review on-going issues
13:42:07 <agendabot> agenda+ Support automatically localized counters
13:42:10 <agendabot> agenda+ TPAC Planning
13:42:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:59:27 <addison> present+ Addison, Florian
14:02:42 <addison> present+ Richard, Atsushi, Fantasai
14:03:52 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:03:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:03:52 <addison> agenda?
14:04:11 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n
14:04:17 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
14:05:12 <addison> fantasai: just published FPWD of Values Level 5
14:05:25 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:05:25 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:05:33 <addison> gb, list open actions with label css
14:05:34 <gb> Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #116, #16, #11
14:05:38 <addison> #116
14:05:39 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/116 -> Action 116 sort out the various categories of things that get autospaced with koji (on frivoal, fantasai) due 2024-08-27
14:05:58 <addison> #16
14:05:58 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) due 1 Jan 2024
14:06:14 <addison> #11
14:06:14 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) due 18 Jul 2023
14:07:06 <addison> florian: this group was troubled with google shipping text trap style... think it's done
14:07:26 <addison> s/trap/wrap/
14:09:17 <addison> ... might be related, long vs. shorthand for the property for pretty line wrapping
14:09:30 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:09:30 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share and Progress Reports -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:09:59 <addison> richard: v16 of Unicode Core Spec has been released and (yay!) it's in HTML
14:10:12 <addison> florian: will they keep this online?
14:10:16 <addison> richard: this is the future
14:10:19 <fantasai> CSS Values L5 Logical Positioning Syntax -> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-values-5/#position
14:10:53 <addison> fantasai: active work on text-box-trim stuff in Level 3
14:10:54 <fantasai> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-inline-3/#leading-trim
14:11:13 <addison> ... this has I18N impact because we don't have metrics for a lot of writing systems
14:11:16 <fantasai> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-inline-3/#propdef-text-box-trim
14:11:22 <addison> ... the values allows are what we can pull from opentype
14:11:30 <fantasai> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-inline-3/#typedef-text-edge
14:12:25 <addison> florian: we've been pointing out gaps in the metrics for years
14:12:35 <addison> ... e.g. x-height equiv in hebrew etc etc.
14:12:55 <addison> fantasai: maybe I18N could prod opentype to get around to fixing
14:13:31 <fantasai> https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/typography-issues/issues/240
14:13:32 <gb> https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/typography-issues/issues/240 -> Issue 240 OpenType needs metrics for Hebrew, Thai, etc. (by fantasai) [enhancement] [OpenType spec]
14:15:17 <addison> ... for each writing system what are the relevant edges that a language/system uses/names
14:15:28 <addison> ... often the baseline matches alphabetic baseline
14:15:53 <addison> ... but what about the others? give us something to work with, makes it clear to opentype how to define the metric
14:15:58 <addison> ... they don't have to figure out what it is
14:16:14 <addison> florian: hints to synthesize the metric
14:16:34 <addison> fantasai: it's easy to look at hebrew and see that "here's a really strong 'edge'"
14:16:42 <addison> ... Thai has a similar strong top edge
14:16:59 <addison> ... but other systems don't have a clear
14:17:14 <addison> ... like some indics... not clear where people want to align to
14:17:25 <addison> ... hardest might be Arabic
14:18:04 <addison> ... this is a "top edge" so if you align text and image this is where you want to hit or if two boxes in two scripts, look like top edges are algined
14:18:16 <addison> florian: might be plural, like cap height and x-height
14:18:28 <addison> fantasai: cap height for top unless special
14:18:49 <addison> addison: what are we doing here?
14:19:12 <addison> florian: not a simple action item
14:19:57 <addison> addison: something to documet the problem, like a short article?
14:20:17 <addison> fantasai: writing up the problem together might help
14:20:23 <addison> addison: typography index???
14:21:08 <addison> fantasai: add "how do you align things to text" "how do you align objects to text"
14:21:25 <addison> ... a lot are answered by font designer
14:21:33 <addison> florian: if you have drop caps, how do you measure
14:21:48 <addison> florian: top edge of text if you want it to look good
14:22:02 <addison> richard: just use baseline?
14:22:41 <addison> fantasai: if two sizes of fonts, you want to top edge
14:23:23 <addison> florian: or an aside box, the top of the box with the top of the text. in english it's capheight
14:23:59 <addison> ... for olde-fashioned typesetting they just nudge it, but for automatic no such thing
14:24:20 <addison> richard: why don't we write a dicussion document on github
14:24:58 <addison> fantasai: if you have a good place to land, people can include in e.g. blog posts
14:26:06 <addison> action: florian,fantasai: add dicussion document to i18n-discuss repo of seeking font metrics for various writing systems
14:26:14 <gb> Created -> action #120 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/120
14:26:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:26:33 <addison> agenda?
14:27:48 <addison> topic: line clamp and approach to ellipsis insertion
14:28:17 <addison> addison: we discussed it in i18n call and I added a comment
14:28:32 <addison> florian: problem of what to elide and then where to put the ellipsis
14:28:40 <addison> ... maybe it does along writing mode fo the block
14:28:55 <addison> ... you suggest first elided character
14:29:14 <addison> ... maybe missed we want to elide in logical order
14:29:34 <addison> ... but browsers don't want to do that
14:29:45 <addison> ... they chop the overflow in physical order
14:30:53 <florian> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10844
14:30:54 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10844 -> Issue 10844 [css-overflow] Line-clamp and approaches to ellipsis insertion (by frivoal) [css-overflow-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-alreq]
14:31:24 <addison> action: addison: add additional comment to css 10844 to emphasize logical truncation
14:31:25 <gb> Created -> action #121 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/121
14:33:29 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:33:29 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Support automatically localized counters -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:34:11 <addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024JulSep/0077.html
14:34:18 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959
14:34:19 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959 -> Issue 7959 [css-counter-styles-3] Support automatically localized counters (by pols12) [i18n-tracker] [css-counter-styles-4]
14:35:32 <addison> richard: this was a discussion about making it possible to... tab had been discussing this...
14:35:35 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959#issuecomment-1601286973
14:36:01 <addison> ... there was a proposed grammar, seemed like getting some forward movement and then just stopped
14:36:48 <addison> florian: seems interesting, maybe poking tab is enough? there was an agenda+ that was removed, maybe just put it back to put into people's memory
14:36:59 <addison> ... a few options, problem is getting impl interest
14:37:19 <addison> fantasai: think also question of how important is this when can use language selectors to get this in most cases
14:37:25 <addison> ... thats a mechanism we already have
14:37:33 <addison> ... don't build into default UA stylesheet
14:37:44 <addison> ... problems with numeric system to switch to
14:37:55 <addison> ... that would break compat with existing webpages
14:38:05 <addison> ... only good for new pages that want to enable translation
14:38:13 <addison> ... have to know it exists
14:38:34 <addison> richard: original raisers were e.g. wikipedia, it's a pain to maintain, be nice to have somethig simpler
14:38:39 <addison> florian: looking to opt into this
14:38:57 <addison> ... give me 'numeric' and browser figure it out
14:39:13 <addison> richard: elika mentioned there are different types for specific languages
14:39:38 <addison> ... not as a default for the browser but for in-house publication, if we want an alphabetic system for a list which can be defined for a given language
14:40:08 <addison> florian: my impression was this was your answer, can we just say 'numeric' with overrides but just do right thing
14:40:15 <addison> fantasai: have to set direciton property correctly
14:40:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:40:58 <addison> richard: read what he said carefully, ask wasn't exactly what he wanted so describe and at some point he agreed
14:41:06 <addison> ... like 16th of june
14:41:20 <addison> fantasai: yes he "want's browser to figure it out"
14:41:39 <addison> ... if lower-alpha => ja, what to use? hira? etc.
14:42:13 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959#issuecomment-1595330468
14:42:14 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959 -> Issue 7959 [css-counter-styles-3] Support automatically localized counters (by pols12) [i18n-tracker] [css-counter-styles-4]
14:42:29 <addison> richard: if I described is what I want, can have your own styles in there, it's not defaults it's managing xyz styling, then it knows which kind ofcounter style to apply
14:42:36 <addison> s/ofcounter/of counter/
14:43:05 <addison> fantasai: would like to have the same stylesheet for many languages
14:43:23 <addison> ... (reads comment) don't want to figure out which counter style is right for each writing system
14:43:38 <addison> ... don't have the ability to do that which will actually be correct
14:44:06 <addison> florian: do in reverse what is inverse of iroha order?
14:44:11 <addison> richard: where is that quote
14:45:13 <addison> (dicussion about this comment https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959#issuecomment-1595330468)
14:45:32 <addison> richard: agree with what you're saying, fantasai
14:45:47 <addison> florian: tab's excited or was, can see if still excited
14:46:06 <addison> ... more convenient than language selectors, but not that much nore. hard to get browsers onboard?
14:46:42 <addison> richard: most useful for people with "lots" of language sites
14:47:01 <addison> florian: prod tab? WG? or just let it sit?
14:47:24 <addison> richard: think it would be worth not just abandoning, it might not work, prod someone?
14:47:30 <addison> florian: put agenda+ back on?
14:47:36 <addison> fantasai: could do that
14:47:47 <addison> ... not sure I'd prioritize impl-wise
14:47:54 <addison> ... it's a simple proposal
14:47:58 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/predefined-counter-styles/issues/65
14:47:58 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/predefined-counter-styles/issues/65 -> Issue 65 Make some local counter styles the default for some of the languages (by ebraminio)
14:48:05 <addison> rchard: another issue raised ^^
14:48:13 <addison> ... might be connect
14:48:27 <addison> fantasai: logic positioning syntax seems more important
14:48:40 <addison> ... this is not the highest priority
14:48:52 <addison> richard: easy to do and a cool little feature
14:49:21 <addison> florian: seems like a 'neat' idea but not a strong urge
14:49:35 <addison> ... if you want to push it, fine, but I probably woudln't
14:51:36 <addison> florian: raise with tab first, I think
14:52:39 <addison> fantasai: not a _bad_ idea, but lacking infinite resources...
14:53:03 <addison> richard: prod tab, decide what to do, before closing or with right priority
14:53:16 <addison> agenda?
14:53:31 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
14:53:31 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- TPAC Planning -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:54:05 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+css+label%3Aneeds-resolution
14:54:11 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+css+label%3AAgenda%2BI18N%2BCSS
14:55:01 <addison> addison: how can we best help you make progress?
14:55:23 <addison> addison has joined #i18n
14:55:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:55:39 <addison> fantasai: syntax for logical shorthands
14:56:26 <addison> florian: whole story about auto-spacing between ideograph and alpha etc etc. talked to Unicode
14:59:44 <addison> (various discussion)
14:59:50 <addison> richard: we tend to get stuck on the gnarly things
15:00:18 <addison> ... nice to have a 2-tier system, if we could get quicker things
15:00:22 <addison> ... nice for I18N to show progress
15:00:35 <addison> florian: is khmer thing agenda+ in css-land?
15:00:37 <addison> richard: don't think so
15:00:37 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10036
15:00:38 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10036 -> Issue 10036 [css-fonts] Add generic font family, Khmer Mul (by r12a) [css-fonts-4] [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-sealreq] [css-fonts-5]
15:01:29 <addison> florian: are there fonts preinstalled?
15:01:43 <addison> ... plural of these fonts installed in some OSes so saying "Mul" would do something
15:01:49 <addison> richard: probably not, but people use this a lot
15:02:01 <addison> florian: it's easier if this is the case vs. not
15:02:22 <addison> ... in list of generics, do you have some that match the condtion
15:02:32 <addison> richard: have to have a look
15:02:44 <addison> ... accepted nastaliq and that's in a similar boat
15:02:52 <r12a> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/fontlist/index.html?script=khmr
15:07:00 <addison> fantasai: text spacing trim, text auto-space is moving forward,
15:07:11 <addison> ... so any issue there
15:07:20 <addison> ... text box trim and text fit in inline module
15:07:34 <addison> ... not too much to worry about there except missing metrics for many WS's
15:07:58 <addison> richard: since it's tpac, writing-mode sideways values
15:08:06 <addison> ... promised "very quickly"
15:08:12 <addison> florian: ff did way back
15:08:18 <addison> fantasai: webkit has a partial
15:08:36 <addison> ... need to fix some minor bugs but also actual part where we make the text go sideways
15:08:42 <addison> ... like to have working
15:08:55 <addison> richard: one of my higher priority items
15:09:03 <addison> fantasai: if WK then Goog would feel pressure
15:09:18 <r12a> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/95
15:09:23 <addison> addison: big room or hallway?
15:11:24 <addison> richard: always the pipeline ^^
15:14:07 <addison> action: addison: reach out to alan to see if we can schedule i18n/css to morning
15:14:09 <gb> Created -> action #122 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/122
15:15:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:16:53 <r12a> by the way, here's the link for the new HTML Unicode Core spec https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode16.0.0/core-spec/