IRC log of i18n on 2024-09-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:41:38 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:41:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-irc
13:41:50 [addison]
Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS
13:41:55 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
13:42:00 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a1f2b55d-d2c7-40a1-a3e7-4c5eb70aa55e/20240917T070000/
13:42:00 [agendabot]
clear agenda
13:42:00 [agendabot]
agenda+ Agenda
13:42:00 [agendabot]
agenda+ Action Items
13:42:03 [agendabot]
agenda+ Info Share and Progress Reports
13:42:05 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review on-going issues
13:42:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ Support automatically localized counters
13:42:10 [agendabot]
agenda+ TPAC Planning
13:42:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:59:27 [addison]
present+ Addison, Florian
14:02:42 [addison]
present+ Richard, Atsushi, Fantasai
14:03:52 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 1
14:03:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Agenda -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:03:52 [addison]
agenda?
14:04:11 [atsushi]
atsushi has joined #i18n
14:04:17 [r12a]
r12a has joined #i18n
14:05:12 [addison]
fantasai: just published FPWD of Values Level 5
14:05:25 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 2
14:05:25 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:05:33 [addison]
gb, list open actions with label css
14:05:34 [gb]
Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #116, #16, #11
14:05:38 [addison]
#116
14:05:39 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/116 -> Action 116 sort out the various categories of things that get autospaced with koji (on frivoal, fantasai) due 2024-08-27
14:05:58 [addison]
#16
14:05:58 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) due 1 Jan 2024
14:06:14 [addison]
#11
14:06:14 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) due 18 Jul 2023
14:07:06 [addison]
florian: this group was troubled with google shipping text trap style... think it's done
14:07:26 [addison]
s/trap/wrap/
14:09:17 [addison]
... might be related, long vs. shorthand for the property for pretty line wrapping
14:09:30 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 3
14:09:30 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Info Share and Progress Reports -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:09:59 [addison]
richard: v16 of Unicode Core Spec has been released and (yay!) it's in HTML
14:10:12 [addison]
florian: will they keep this online?
14:10:16 [addison]
richard: this is the future
14:10:19 [fantasai]
CSS Values L5 Logical Positioning Syntax -> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-values-5/#position
14:10:53 [addison]
fantasai: active work on text-box-trim stuff in Level 3
14:10:54 [fantasai]
https://www.w3.org/TR/css-inline-3/#leading-trim
14:11:13 [addison]
... this has I18N impact because we don't have metrics for a lot of writing systems
14:11:16 [fantasai]
https://www.w3.org/TR/css-inline-3/#propdef-text-box-trim
14:11:22 [addison]
... the values allows are what we can pull from opentype
14:11:30 [fantasai]
https://www.w3.org/TR/css-inline-3/#typedef-text-edge
14:12:25 [addison]
florian: we've been pointing out gaps in the metrics for years
14:12:35 [addison]
... e.g. x-height equiv in hebrew etc etc.
14:12:55 [addison]
fantasai: maybe I18N could prod opentype to get around to fixing
14:13:31 [fantasai]
https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/typography-issues/issues/240
14:13:32 [gb]
https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/typography-issues/issues/240 -> Issue 240 OpenType needs metrics for Hebrew, Thai, etc. (by fantasai) [enhancement] [OpenType spec]
14:15:17 [addison]
... for each writing system what are the relevant edges that a language/system uses/names
14:15:28 [addison]
... often the baseline matches alphabetic baseline
14:15:53 [addison]
... but what about the others? give us something to work with, makes it clear to opentype how to define the metric
14:15:58 [addison]
... they don't have to figure out what it is
14:16:14 [addison]
florian: hints to synthesize the metric
14:16:34 [addison]
fantasai: it's easy to look at hebrew and see that "here's a really strong 'edge'"
14:16:42 [addison]
... Thai has a similar strong top edge
14:16:59 [addison]
... but other systems don't have a clear
14:17:14 [addison]
... like some indics... not clear where people want to align to
14:17:25 [addison]
... hardest might be Arabic
14:18:04 [addison]
... this is a "top edge" so if you align text and image this is where you want to hit or if two boxes in two scripts, look like top edges are algined
14:18:16 [addison]
florian: might be plural, like cap height and x-height
14:18:28 [addison]
fantasai: cap height for top unless special
14:18:49 [addison]
addison: what are we doing here?
14:19:12 [addison]
florian: not a simple action item
14:19:57 [addison]
addison: something to documet the problem, like a short article?
14:20:17 [addison]
fantasai: writing up the problem together might help
14:20:23 [addison]
addison: typography index???
14:21:08 [addison]
fantasai: add "how do you align things to text" "how do you align objects to text"
14:21:25 [addison]
... a lot are answered by font designer
14:21:33 [addison]
florian: if you have drop caps, how do you measure
14:21:48 [addison]
florian: top edge of text if you want it to look good
14:22:02 [addison]
richard: just use baseline?
14:22:41 [addison]
fantasai: if two sizes of fonts, you want to top edge
14:23:23 [addison]
florian: or an aside box, the top of the box with the top of the text. in english it's capheight
14:23:59 [addison]
... for olde-fashioned typesetting they just nudge it, but for automatic no such thing
14:24:20 [addison]
richard: why don't we write a dicussion document on github
14:24:58 [addison]
fantasai: if you have a good place to land, people can include in e.g. blog posts
14:26:06 [addison]
action: florian,fantasai: add dicussion document to i18n-discuss repo of seeking font metrics for various writing systems
14:26:14 [gb]
Created -> action #120 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/120
14:26:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:26:33 [addison]
agenda?
14:27:48 [addison]
topic: line clamp and approach to ellipsis insertion
14:28:17 [addison]
addison: we discussed it in i18n call and I added a comment
14:28:32 [addison]
florian: problem of what to elide and then where to put the ellipsis
14:28:40 [addison]
... maybe it does along writing mode fo the block
14:28:55 [addison]
... you suggest first elided character
14:29:14 [addison]
... maybe missed we want to elide in logical order
14:29:34 [addison]
... but browsers don't want to do that
14:29:45 [addison]
... they chop the overflow in physical order
14:30:53 [florian]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10844
14:30:54 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10844 -> Issue 10844 [css-overflow] Line-clamp and approaches to ellipsis insertion (by frivoal) [css-overflow-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-alreq]
14:31:24 [addison]
action: addison: add additional comment to css 10844 to emphasize logical truncation
14:31:25 [gb]
Created -> action #121 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/121
14:33:29 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 5
14:33:29 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Support automatically localized counters -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:34:11 [addison]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024JulSep/0077.html
14:34:18 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959
14:34:19 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959 -> Issue 7959 [css-counter-styles-3] Support automatically localized counters (by pols12) [i18n-tracker] [css-counter-styles-4]
14:35:32 [addison]
richard: this was a discussion about making it possible to... tab had been discussing this...
14:35:35 [r12a]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959#issuecomment-1601286973
14:36:01 [addison]
... there was a proposed grammar, seemed like getting some forward movement and then just stopped
14:36:48 [addison]
florian: seems interesting, maybe poking tab is enough? there was an agenda+ that was removed, maybe just put it back to put into people's memory
14:36:59 [addison]
... a few options, problem is getting impl interest
14:37:19 [addison]
fantasai: think also question of how important is this when can use language selectors to get this in most cases
14:37:25 [addison]
... thats a mechanism we already have
14:37:33 [addison]
... don't build into default UA stylesheet
14:37:44 [addison]
... problems with numeric system to switch to
14:37:55 [addison]
... that would break compat with existing webpages
14:38:05 [addison]
... only good for new pages that want to enable translation
14:38:13 [addison]
... have to know it exists
14:38:34 [addison]
richard: original raisers were e.g. wikipedia, it's a pain to maintain, be nice to have somethig simpler
14:38:39 [addison]
florian: looking to opt into this
14:38:57 [addison]
... give me 'numeric' and browser figure it out
14:39:13 [addison]
richard: elika mentioned there are different types for specific languages
14:39:38 [addison]
... not as a default for the browser but for in-house publication, if we want an alphabetic system for a list which can be defined for a given language
14:40:08 [addison]
florian: my impression was this was your answer, can we just say 'numeric' with overrides but just do right thing
14:40:15 [addison]
fantasai: have to set direciton property correctly
14:40:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:40:58 [addison]
richard: read what he said carefully, ask wasn't exactly what he wanted so describe and at some point he agreed
14:41:06 [addison]
... like 16th of june
14:41:20 [addison]
fantasai: yes he "want's browser to figure it out"
14:41:39 [addison]
... if lower-alpha => ja, what to use? hira? etc.
14:42:13 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959#issuecomment-1595330468
14:42:14 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959 -> Issue 7959 [css-counter-styles-3] Support automatically localized counters (by pols12) [i18n-tracker] [css-counter-styles-4]
14:42:29 [addison]
richard: if I described is what I want, can have your own styles in there, it's not defaults it's managing xyz styling, then it knows which kind ofcounter style to apply
14:42:36 [addison]
s/ofcounter/of counter/
14:43:05 [addison]
fantasai: would like to have the same stylesheet for many languages
14:43:23 [addison]
... (reads comment) don't want to figure out which counter style is right for each writing system
14:43:38 [addison]
... don't have the ability to do that which will actually be correct
14:44:06 [addison]
florian: do in reverse what is inverse of iroha order?
14:44:11 [addison]
richard: where is that quote
14:45:13 [addison]
(dicussion about this comment https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959#issuecomment-1595330468)
14:45:32 [addison]
richard: agree with what you're saying, fantasai
14:45:47 [addison]
florian: tab's excited or was, can see if still excited
14:46:06 [addison]
... more convenient than language selectors, but not that much nore. hard to get browsers onboard?
14:46:42 [addison]
richard: most useful for people with "lots" of language sites
14:47:01 [addison]
florian: prod tab? WG? or just let it sit?
14:47:24 [addison]
richard: think it would be worth not just abandoning, it might not work, prod someone?
14:47:30 [addison]
florian: put agenda+ back on?
14:47:36 [addison]
fantasai: could do that
14:47:47 [addison]
... not sure I'd prioritize impl-wise
14:47:54 [addison]
... it's a simple proposal
14:47:58 [r12a]
https://github.com/w3c/predefined-counter-styles/issues/65
14:47:58 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/predefined-counter-styles/issues/65 -> Issue 65 Make some local counter styles the default for some of the languages (by ebraminio)
14:48:05 [addison]
rchard: another issue raised ^^
14:48:13 [addison]
... might be connect
14:48:27 [addison]
fantasai: logic positioning syntax seems more important
14:48:40 [addison]
... this is not the highest priority
14:48:52 [addison]
richard: easy to do and a cool little feature
14:49:21 [addison]
florian: seems like a 'neat' idea but not a strong urge
14:49:35 [addison]
... if you want to push it, fine, but I probably woudln't
14:51:36 [addison]
florian: raise with tab first, I think
14:52:39 [addison]
fantasai: not a _bad_ idea, but lacking infinite resources...
14:53:03 [addison]
richard: prod tab, decide what to do, before closing or with right priority
14:53:16 [addison]
agenda?
14:53:31 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 6
14:53:31 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- TPAC Planning -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:54:05 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+css+label%3Aneeds-resolution
14:54:11 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+css+label%3AAgenda%2BI18N%2BCSS
14:55:01 [addison]
addison: how can we best help you make progress?
14:55:23 [addison]
addison has joined #i18n
14:55:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:55:39 [addison]
fantasai: syntax for logical shorthands
14:56:26 [addison]
florian: whole story about auto-spacing between ideograph and alpha etc etc. talked to Unicode
14:59:44 [addison]
(various discussion)
14:59:50 [addison]
richard: we tend to get stuck on the gnarly things
15:00:18 [addison]
... nice to have a 2-tier system, if we could get quicker things
15:00:22 [addison]
... nice for I18N to show progress
15:00:35 [addison]
florian: is khmer thing agenda+ in css-land?
15:00:37 [addison]
richard: don't think so
15:00:37 [r12a]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10036
15:00:38 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10036 -> Issue 10036 [css-fonts] Add generic font family, Khmer Mul (by r12a) [css-fonts-4] [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-sealreq] [css-fonts-5]
15:01:29 [addison]
florian: are there fonts preinstalled?
15:01:43 [addison]
... plural of these fonts installed in some OSes so saying "Mul" would do something
15:01:49 [addison]
richard: probably not, but people use this a lot
15:02:01 [addison]
florian: it's easier if this is the case vs. not
15:02:22 [addison]
... in list of generics, do you have some that match the condtion
15:02:32 [addison]
richard: have to have a look
15:02:44 [addison]
... accepted nastaliq and that's in a similar boat
15:02:52 [r12a]
https://r12a.github.io/scripts/fontlist/index.html?script=khmr
15:07:00 [addison]
fantasai: text spacing trim, text auto-space is moving forward,
15:07:11 [addison]
... so any issue there
15:07:20 [addison]
... text box trim and text fit in inline module
15:07:34 [addison]
... not too much to worry about there except missing metrics for many WS's
15:07:58 [addison]
richard: since it's tpac, writing-mode sideways values
15:08:06 [addison]
... promised "very quickly"
15:08:12 [addison]
florian: ff did way back
15:08:18 [addison]
fantasai: webkit has a partial
15:08:36 [addison]
... need to fix some minor bugs but also actual part where we make the text go sideways
15:08:42 [addison]
... like to have working
15:08:55 [addison]
richard: one of my higher priority items
15:09:03 [addison]
fantasai: if WK then Goog would feel pressure
15:09:18 [r12a]
https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/95
15:09:23 [addison]
addison: big room or hallway?
15:11:24 [addison]
richard: always the pipeline ^^
15:14:07 [addison]
action: addison: reach out to alan to see if we can schedule i18n/css to morning
15:14:09 [gb]
Created -> action #122 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/122
15:15:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/17-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:16:53 [r12a]
by the way, here's the link for the new HTML Unicode Core spec https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode16.0.0/core-spec/