13:55:39 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star 13:55:43 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/13-rdf-star-irc 13:57:21 meeting: RDF-star Semantics TF 13:57:23 regrets+ ora, enrico, tl 13:59:35 TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star Semantics TF 2024-09-13 — https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20230526T100000/ 13:59:39 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20230526T100000/ 13:59:40 TallTed, sorry, I did not recognize any agenda in https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20230526T100000/ 14:00:02 agenda+ Resuming discussions on basic elements of semantics definitions 14:00:02 agenda+ Analysis of the new proposals by pfps 14:00:12 clear agenda 14:00:23 agenda+ Resuming discussions on basic elements of semantics definitions 14:00:23 agenda+ Analysis of the new proposals by pfps 14:00:28 present+ 14:00:32 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:00:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/13-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 14:00:38 present+ 14:00:39 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:01:05 previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/12-rdf-star-minutes.html 14:01:05 next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/19-rdf-star-minutes.html 14:01:16 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:01:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/13-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 14:03:46 doerthe has joined #rdf-star 14:04:37 niklasl has joined #rdf-star 14:04:53 william_vw has joined #rdf-star 14:05:04 present+ 14:05:07 I leave for a moment, I will be right back 14:05:19 present+ niklasl, doerthe 14:06:10 present+ 14:06:16 From 2024-08-23: 14:06:23 > STRAWPOLL: Do you support the idea that in RDF semantics only predicates that are instances of rdf:ReificationProperty can have triple terms as objects? 14:06:41 > STRAWPOLL: Any IRI used as the predicate of a triple whose object is a triple term denotes an instance/\ of the denotation of rdf:ReificationProperty. 14:07:02 Souri has joined #rdf-star 14:07:04 clear agenda 14:07:37 present+ 14:08:18 present+ 14:08:36 TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star Semantics TF 2024-09-13 — https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20240913T100000/ 14:08:55 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20240913T100000/ 14:08:55 TallTed, sorry, I did not recognize any agenda in https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20240913T100000/ 14:09:14 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:09:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/13-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 14:09:21 This https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22 14:10:27 i/2024-08-23/scribe: not_me 14:20:37 in my opinion, only the two extremes would work: the named triple and or the rather free properties 14:28:23 I'm inclined to agree. (Although I'm afraid of getting rid of "the lid on the can of triple terms" that restriction to rdf:reifies effectively is...) 14:33:39 the moment reifies is a predicate, we can declare an equivalent predicate and that is why I am against the restriction 14:34:34 There was a comment in a github issue thread which resonated with me: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/80 It compared using "bare" (my wording) triple terms with the regular use of "just" literals and "reified" literals (used in the comment to refer to the loose convention of rdf:value). 14:34:34 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/80 -> CLOSED Issue 80 where are triple terms allowed (by pfps) [spec:substantive] 14:53:38 Enrico's "alternative-baseline" defn for rdf:ReificationProperty -- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22#metamodelling-entailment-patterns-and-axiomatic-triples 14:54:23 Note 1: We could have "best practice" text to show how to use rdf:reifies. 14:55:54 Note 2: There seem to be only possibilities rdf:reifies must be used (and no others) or allow other properties and use the metamodel proposal for rdf:ReificationProperty. 14:57:57 Note 3: RDF Concepts (https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#section-triples) currently has text to say "Every triple with a triple term as its object SHOULD use rdf:reifies as its predicate." 14:58:38 and also "Every triple whose object is not a triple term SHOULD NOT use rdf:reifies as its predicate." 15:00:22 foaf:Person owl:disjointWith rdf:TripleTerm . 15:01:24 rdf:reifies . a foaf:Person . 15:01:26 yes, but we are in RDF 15:01:38 Yes; I meant domain contradiction. 15:02:01 "An application might be upset" level. ;) 15:02:14 (Or a person ;P ) 15:02:40 ys, I was just surprised because if what we add allows to construct contradiction in RDF itself, then RDF gets stronger and then we need to be careful 15:03:06 Ah, yes. 15:03:25 OK, I like domain contradiction vs. logical contradiction, we get a domain contradiction 15:08:33 Note 2: There seem to be only 2 possibilities (1) rdf:reifies must be used (and no others) or (2) allow other properties and use the metamodel proposal for rdf:ReificationProperty. 15:09:25 pfps has joined #rdf-star 15:09:36 present+ 15:11:09 the one instance could be problematic 15:12:50 Or for 2.1 -- class rdf:ReificationProperty only has one member : rdf:reifies. Allows the future possibility of other properties. It is a fixed set and it is defined by RDF specs. 15:13:05 Or an application can say (in "its" restrictive domain model): rdf:ReificationProperty owl:oneOf (rdf:reifies) . # Not sure it that's good advice, and where to put it if so... (It's OWL, so not in any RDF docs...) 15:13:45 ... this leads to problems via "equivalence" via RDFS or OWL. 15:13:59 what is "the metamodel proposal for rdf:ReificationProperty" (in Note 2)? 15:14:10 Yes (but that was sort of intentional. It's about what rdf:reifies *denotes*.) 15:14:21 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22#metamodelling-entailment-patterns-and-axiomatic-triples 15:16:20 I will transcribe the notes into a new wiki page. 15:19:08 So, a propoal doc in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/tree/main/docs ? 15:23:09 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:23:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/13-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS 15:24:37 I do think in any case we need: rdf:reifies rdfs:range rdf:TripleTerm . # But that this might not be enough. 15:31:34 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:31:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/13-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 15:31:46 Zakim, bye 15:31:46 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been AndyS, ora, gtw, eBremer, gkellogg, TallTed, Dominik_T, pfps, pchampin, doerthe, niklasl, william_vw, Souri, fsasaki 15:31:46 Zakim has left #rdf-star 15:31:50 RRSAgent, bye 15:31:50 I see no action items