IRC log of tt on 2024-09-12

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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:59:36 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
14:59:39 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel, Gary
14:59:43 [nigel]
Present: Nigel
14:59:52 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/290
15:00:00 [nigel]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-tt-minutes.html
15:00:18 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/12-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:01:34 [nigel]
Present+ Andreas, Cyril, Gary
15:01:45 [nigel]
Topic: This Meeting
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15:03:23 [nigel]
Nigel: Today we have DAPT, IMSC and TPAC planning. Any other business?
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no other business
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Topic: DAPT
15:04:09 [nigel]
Subtopic: CR Must-have issues
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Present+ Atsushi
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-> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22CR+must-have%22 CR must-have issues
15:05:21 [nigel]
Nigel: Last week we said we'd try to get PRs open for today so that they will have had a long enough
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.. approval period to merge in time to agree to publish CR at TPAC
15:06:08 [nigel]
.. I've opened 3 pull requests, one can be merged tomorrow if not today
15:07:44 [nigel]
.. w3c/dapt#237 Add nested div feature and mark as permitted, at risk
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.. That was a technical one, can be merged tomorrow I think.
15:08:08 [nigel]
.. w3c/dapt#233 I'd like to come back to.
15:08:21 [nigel]
.. w3c/dapt#232 I opened a PR for last night
15:08:29 [nigel]
Cyril: I'm not sure about the approach, let's talk about it.
15:08:34 [nigel]
Nigel: OK
15:09:10 [nigel]
.. w3c/dapt#227 to merge represents and script event type, which I just opened earlier today,
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.. which we can have a quick look at.
15:09:52 [nigel]
.. Then we had 75 and 44 which Cyril was going to have a look at.
15:10:05 [nigel]
Cyril: I think we can close them, shall we discuss them, maybe start with #75?
15:10:09 [nigel]
Nigel: Let's do that
15:10:41 [nigel]
Subtopic: Consider defining restrictions per Script Type w3c/dapt#75
15:10:49 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/75
15:11:01 [nigel]
Cyril: A lot of things have changed since this was opened.
15:11:20 [nigel]
.. The gist of this issue is, if I place myself as a Netflix receiver of scripts,
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.. I want to be able to validate that if I receive a dubbing script it's not an audio description script,
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.. and vice versa.
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.. I can see that if somebody delivers a dubbing script to Netflix we will check that the <audio>
15:12:09 [nigel]
.. element is not present in it, and reject a delivery if it does, for example.
15:12:21 [nigel]
.. We do that for subtitles, have additional restrictions not in IMSC but Netflix-specific.
15:12:42 [nigel]
.. When I opened this issue I wondered how many of these restrictions should be core vs
15:13:04 [nigel]
.. organisation specific. I thought it would make sense to distinguish these transcript types.
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.. For example in an original transcript each event should have at most one <p> and the language source
15:13:27 [nigel]
.. should be equal to the xml:lang always.
15:13:50 [nigel]
.. We can go to CR without this. The risk is that the actual profile that is implemented has more
15:14:09 [nigel]
.. restrictions than what it specified in the spec, and some people may impose additional restrictions than
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.. the spec.
15:15:17 [nigel]
Nigel: What should we do - take the label off, or close with no action?
15:15:50 [nigel]
.. I think we're missing a proposal for what these per-script type restrictions would be.
15:16:02 [nigel]
Cyril: I realise that, we could still decide to go to CR without them.
15:16:06 [nigel]
Nigel: I think so, yes.
15:16:13 [atai]
q+
15:16:34 [nigel]
Cyril: This could be a good segue into the discussion about represents.
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ack at
15:16:52 [nigel]
Andreas: Apologies I lost a bit of progress on the spec.
15:17:13 [nigel]
.. Just to check the use case, it is to work out whether a script is a dubbing script or an audio description script?
15:17:19 [nigel]
.. I think that is a reasonable use case.
15:17:31 [nigel]
q+
15:17:38 [nigel]
Present+ Pierre
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ack ni
15:18:29 [nigel]
Nigel: This has hurt my head in the past because I'm not sure how prescriptive we are about
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.. the different lifecycle stages for getting to localised versions - is an original language transcript
15:19:09 [nigel]
.. a dubbing script, say? It's a start for one, or for subtitles, or both.
15:19:38 [nigel]
Cyril: I would like to keep this open and propose something based on represents
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SUMMARY: @cconcolato to make a proposal
15:20:25 [nigel]
Subtopic: Remove Script Event Type, use Represents instead w3c/dapt#241
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github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/241
15:24:30 [nigel]
Nigel: [shows pull request preview]
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.. Question about whether to formalise the relationship when a content descriptor is a subset of another one.
15:25:02 [nigel]
Cyril: 2 comments, one editorial, one technical.
15:25:21 [nigel]
.. 1. Editorial: there's no question on the intent, merging the fields is a good decision.
15:25:30 [nigel]
.. Why did you choose to make it a Shared Property?
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.. It behaves very similarly to text language source and other attributes.
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.. 2. Technical: I think we need to better explain the inheritance model that goes with it.
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q+
15:26:37 [nigel]
.. To me, I see Represents as similar to xml:lang or daptm:langSrc - you specify it somewhere and it
15:26:49 [nigel]
.. applies to the whole tree, and if you specify it somewhere else it is possibly to narrow down the value
15:27:00 [nigel]
.. for that part of the tree, a group of divs or one div.
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.. For example for a dubbing script a represents at the top level could say "dialog nonDialogSounds"
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.. and for specific events you would say this is a dialog or a nonDialogSound.
15:27:48 [nigel]
.. We shouldn't be able to say something in represents at the top level and then contradict that at a lower level,
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.. e.g. by not having any nonDialogSounds in the body but claiming it at the root.
15:28:11 [nigel]
ack nige
15:28:25 [nigel]
Nigel: My thinking here is that there is no inheritance model
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.. You could make the inheritance model one where you replace an inherited value with one
15:29:21 [nigel]
.. specified at a lower level, but additive inheritance would not work.
15:32:23 [nigel]
.. Let's say I commission a transcript including dialog and nonDialog sounds, but the media
15:33:43 [atai]
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15:34:37 [nigel]
.. has no nonDialogSounds, then it makes sense to have no Script Events that represent nonDialogSounds.
15:35:14 [nigel]
[discussion of inheritance, inclusion and exclusion constraints]
15:35:27 [atai]
q+
15:36:05 [nigel]
Gary: Could the top level one be a default one?
15:36:19 [nigel]
Nigel: Could make represents mandatory on Script Events
15:36:33 [nigel]
Cyril: Can't have a single Script Event be visual and nonVisual at the same time.
15:36:37 [nigel]
ack at
15:37:00 [nigel]
Andreas: Why can't we apply the same inheritance rule as xml:lang, so that the lowest
15:37:19 [nigel]
.. attribute in the tree defines what the event is, so it's not a restriction, it's just overriding what is above.
15:37:38 [nigel]
.. It's a general rule, e.g. for namespaces, xml:lang and others.
15:37:50 [nigel]
.. To make this restriction makes it complicated to validate.
15:38:58 [nigel]
Nigel: It's a list, and it only applies to the element it is on.
15:39:12 [nigel]
Cyril: In that case your idea to make it mandatory on Script Event is probably better.
15:39:17 [nigel]
.. It would lead to some verbosity.
15:39:45 [nigel]
Gary: An alternative is to have represents be a single item and have a documentRepresents with a list
15:39:49 [nigel]
Cyril: Could do that
15:40:02 [nigel]
Gary: Then you could do normal inheritance
15:40:22 [nigel]
Cyril: It's like langSrc, where the document can have multiple source languages
15:40:44 [nigel]
.. I realise that langSrc is just one value but I thought we discussed having multiple values
15:41:48 [nigel]
Nigel: Need to close this due to time. Please add comments to the issue clarifying the requirements.
15:41:51 [nigel]
Cyril: OK
15:42:11 [nigel]
SUMMARY: Reviewers to consider the PR and if necessary comment regarding the requirements, in the issue.
15:43:01 [nigel]
Subtopic: Add legacy metadata structure and media zero timecode metadata w3c/dapt#240
15:43:08 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/240
15:43:39 [nigel]
Cyril: I added my comment already. Why add the legacy structure?
15:43:46 [nigel]
.. Why make it an element not an attribute, e.g. on the tt element?
15:44:37 [nigel]
Nigel: I wanted to provide a home for legacy conversion data, and to make it really clear that
15:44:48 [nigel]
.. it isn't something that should carry any presentation semantics.
15:44:56 [nigel]
.. We could do it the way you suggest, of course.
15:45:10 [nigel]
.. I fear that people won't read the spec and putting the data here gives a really strong hint.
15:45:55 [nigel]
Cyril: I think I raised the point in the past - it's not specific to DAPT, it could be a TTML thing.
15:46:13 [nigel]
.. I understand that we need it in DAPT, but maybe we could define it in the TTML namespace, and transfer
15:46:17 [nigel]
.. it into TTML2 later.
15:47:47 [atai]
q+
15:47:49 [nigel]
Nigel: I'm happy to consider other use cases, I actually don't know of any right now.
15:47:51 [nigel]
ack at
15:48:07 [nigel]
Andreas: I was present when we started the discussion but haven't followed the current solution of the issue.
15:48:25 [nigel]
.. When we started I also had the feeling that it could have wider applicability than DAPT, and have other use cases,
15:48:35 [nigel]
.. so would be better in another namespace, or aligned with the parent specification.
15:48:49 [nigel]
.. Sorry for not fully reviewing what you have proposed here.
15:49:03 [nigel]
.. What we have in EBU-TT, couldn't the same thing be expressed with what you propose here for DAPT?
15:49:21 [nigel]
Nigel: I don't think so, happy to be shown otherwise.
15:51:17 [nigel]
.. Need to close for time, please continue to review and discuss.
15:51:32 [nigel]
.. Wonder how strong your feeling is about the data structure as proposed, Cyril?
15:51:53 [nigel]
Cyril: I don't understand the point of the legacy metadata, why it's different from other conversion data.
15:52:08 [nigel]
.. Also would like to see an informative reference to ESEF to explain it.
15:52:16 [nigel]
SUMMARY: Review to continue
15:52:38 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC superscript/subscript support w3c/imsc#583
15:52:49 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/583
15:53:06 [nigel]
Nigel: This was discussed in the EBU Media Access Technology group call last Tuesday,
15:53:24 [nigel]
.. and the main summary is that for French especially, if the feature were available it would be used,
15:53:38 [nigel]
.. but French people are used to non-superscript ordinals at the moment.
15:53:59 [nigel]
.. There are other similar use cases for numbers in chemical symbols or in "square metres" etc,
15:54:03 [nigel]
.. in Norwegian and German.
15:54:36 [nigel]
SUMMARY: EBU positive about requirement, unclear if anyone "cannot live without" the feature.
15:54:44 [nigel]
Topic: TPAC 2024
15:55:18 [nigel]
Nigel: We've had agenda requests - see https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/291
15:56:48 [nigel]
Gary: I will be around remotely, at least on the Friday.
15:56:54 [nigel]
Nigel: Time constraints for the WebVTT topics?
15:57:13 [nigel]
Gary: I don't think I have any, I'm good to go at any time during the meeting
15:57:47 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2024#Agenda_and_Schedule Wiki page
15:58:37 [nigel]
Nigel: If anyone has any constraints on timing, please let us know
16:00:08 [nigel]
.. MediaWG meets in the morning, we may be better using the afternoon for the WebVTT topics
16:00:23 [nigel]
Gary: I'll ping James and Marcos to see if they have any time constraints.
16:02:11 [nigel]
Nigel: Thank you
16:02:16 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
16:02:36 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks everyone. Our next meeting will be, as on the TTWG Calendar, Monday 23rd September,
16:02:41 [nigel]
.. joint with the MEIG.
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.. [adjourns meeting]
16:02:48 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/12-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:08:43 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
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zakim, end meeting
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As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Andreas, Cyril, Gary, Atsushi, Pierre
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RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:08:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/12-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:08:58 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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Zakim has left #tt
16:45:46 [nigel]
rrsagent, excuse us
16:45:46 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items