14:59:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
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14:59:33 <Zakim> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:59:36 <nigel> scribe: nigel
14:59:39 <nigel> Chair: Nigel, Gary
14:59:43 <nigel> Present: Nigel
14:59:52 <nigel> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/290
15:00:00 <nigel> Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-tt-minutes.html
15:00:18 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/12-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:01:34 <nigel> Present+ Andreas, Cyril, Gary
15:01:45 <nigel> Topic: This Meeting
15:02:01 <atai> atai has joined #tt
15:03:23 <nigel> Nigel: Today we have DAPT, IMSC and TPAC planning. Any other business?
15:03:46 <nigel> no other business
15:04:00 <nigel> Topic: DAPT
15:04:09 <nigel> Subtopic: CR Must-have issues
15:04:40 <nigel> Present+ Atsushi
15:04:56 <nigel> -> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22CR+must-have%22 CR must-have issues
15:05:21 <nigel> Nigel: Last week we said we'd try to get PRs open for today so that they will have had a long enough
15:05:36 <nigel> .. approval period to merge in time to agree to publish CR at TPAC
15:06:08 <nigel> .. I've opened 3 pull requests, one can be merged tomorrow if not today
15:07:44 <nigel> .. w3c/dapt#237 Add nested div feature and mark as permitted, at risk
15:07:56 <nigel> .. That was a technical one, can be merged tomorrow I think.
15:08:08 <nigel> .. w3c/dapt#233 I'd like to come back to.
15:08:21 <nigel> .. w3c/dapt#232 I opened a PR for last night
15:08:29 <nigel> Cyril: I'm not sure about the approach, let's talk about it.
15:08:34 <nigel> Nigel: OK
15:09:10 <nigel> .. w3c/dapt#227 to merge represents and script event type, which I just opened earlier today,
15:09:17 <nigel> .. which we can have a quick look at.
15:09:52 <nigel> .. Then we had 75 and 44 which Cyril was going to have a look at.
15:10:05 <nigel> Cyril: I think we can close them, shall we discuss them, maybe start with #75?
15:10:09 <nigel> Nigel: Let's do that
15:10:41 <nigel> Subtopic:  Consider defining restrictions per Script Type w3c/dapt#75
15:10:49 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/75
15:11:01 <nigel> Cyril: A lot of things have changed since this was opened.
15:11:20 <nigel> .. The gist of this issue is, if I place myself as a Netflix receiver of scripts,
15:11:34 <nigel> .. I want to be able to validate that if I receive a dubbing script it's not an audio description script,
15:11:37 <nigel> .. and vice versa.
15:12:00 <nigel> .. I can see that if somebody delivers a dubbing script to Netflix we will check that the <audio>
15:12:09 <nigel> .. element is not present in it, and reject a delivery if it does, for example.
15:12:21 <nigel> .. We do that for subtitles, have additional restrictions not in IMSC but Netflix-specific.
15:12:42 <nigel> .. When I opened this issue I wondered how many of these restrictions should be core vs
15:13:04 <nigel> .. organisation specific. I thought it would make sense to distinguish these transcript types.
15:13:21 <nigel> .. For example in an original transcript each event should have at most one <p> and the language source
15:13:27 <nigel> .. should be equal to the xml:lang always.
15:13:50 <nigel> .. We can go to CR without this. The risk is that the actual profile that is implemented has more
15:14:09 <nigel> .. restrictions than what it specified in the spec, and some people may impose additional restrictions than
15:14:13 <nigel> .. the spec.
15:15:17 <nigel> Nigel: What should we do - take the label off, or close with no action?
15:15:50 <nigel> .. I think we're missing a proposal for what these per-script type restrictions would be.
15:16:02 <nigel> Cyril: I realise that, we could still decide to go to CR without them.
15:16:06 <nigel> Nigel: I think so, yes.
15:16:13 <atai> q+
15:16:34 <nigel> Cyril: This could be a good segue into the discussion about represents.
15:16:37 <nigel> ack at
15:16:52 <nigel> Andreas: Apologies I lost a bit of progress on the spec.
15:17:13 <nigel> .. Just to check the use case, it is to work out whether a script is a dubbing script or an audio description script?
15:17:19 <nigel> .. I think that is a reasonable use case.
15:17:31 <nigel> q+
15:17:38 <nigel> Present+ Pierre
15:18:17 <nigel> ack ni
15:18:29 <nigel> Nigel: This has hurt my head in the past because I'm not sure how prescriptive we are about
15:18:45 <nigel> .. the different lifecycle stages for getting to localised versions - is an original language transcript
15:19:09 <nigel> .. a dubbing script, say? It's a start for one, or for subtitles, or both.
15:19:38 <nigel> Cyril: I would like to keep this open and propose something based on represents
15:20:02 <nigel> SUMMARY: @cconcolato to make a proposal
15:20:25 <nigel> Subtopic:  Remove Script Event Type, use Represents instead w3c/dapt#241
15:20:35 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/241
15:24:30 <nigel> Nigel: [shows pull request preview]
15:24:50 <nigel> .. Question about whether to formalise the relationship when a content descriptor is a subset of another one.
15:25:02 <nigel> Cyril: 2 comments, one editorial, one technical.
15:25:21 <nigel> .. 1. Editorial: there's no question on the intent, merging the fields is a good decision.
15:25:30 <nigel> .. Why did you choose to make it a Shared Property?
15:25:57 <nigel> .. It behaves very similarly to text language source and other attributes.
15:26:16 <nigel> .. 2. Technical: I think we need to better explain the inheritance model that goes with it.
15:26:20 <nigel> q+
15:26:37 <nigel> .. To me, I see Represents as similar to xml:lang or daptm:langSrc - you specify it somewhere and it
15:26:49 <nigel> .. applies to the whole tree, and if you specify it somewhere else it is possibly to narrow down the value
15:27:00 <nigel> .. for that part of the tree, a group of divs or one div.
15:27:16 <nigel> .. For example for a dubbing script a represents at the top level could say "dialog nonDialogSounds"
15:27:28 <nigel> .. and for specific events you would say this is a dialog or a nonDialogSound.
15:27:48 <nigel> .. We shouldn't be able to say something in represents at the top level and then contradict that at a lower level,
15:28:06 <nigel> .. e.g. by not having any nonDialogSounds in the body but claiming it at the root.
15:28:11 <nigel> ack nige
15:28:25 <nigel> Nigel: My thinking here is that there is no inheritance model
15:29:12 <nigel> .. You could make the inheritance model one where you replace an inherited value with one
15:29:21 <nigel> .. specified at a lower level, but additive inheritance would not work.
15:32:23 <nigel> .. Let's say I commission a transcript including dialog and nonDialog sounds, but the media
15:33:43 <atai> atai has joined #tt
15:34:37 <nigel> .. has no nonDialogSounds, then it makes sense to have no Script Events that represent nonDialogSounds.
15:35:14 <nigel> [discussion of inheritance, inclusion and exclusion constraints]
15:35:27 <atai> q+
15:36:05 <nigel> Gary: Could the top level one be a default one?
15:36:19 <nigel> Nigel: Could make represents mandatory on Script Events
15:36:33 <nigel> Cyril: Can't have a single Script Event be visual and nonVisual at the same time.
15:36:37 <nigel> ack at
15:37:00 <nigel> Andreas: Why can't we apply the same inheritance rule as xml:lang, so that the lowest
15:37:19 <nigel> .. attribute in the tree defines what the event is, so it's not a restriction, it's just overriding what is above.
15:37:38 <nigel> .. It's a general rule, e.g. for namespaces, xml:lang and others.
15:37:50 <nigel> .. To make this restriction makes it complicated to validate.
15:38:58 <nigel> Nigel: It's a list, and it only applies to the element it is on.
15:39:12 <nigel> Cyril: In that case your idea to make it mandatory on Script Event is probably better.
15:39:17 <nigel> .. It would lead to some verbosity.
15:39:45 <nigel> Gary: An alternative is to have represents be a single item and have a documentRepresents with a list
15:39:49 <nigel> Cyril: Could do that
15:40:02 <nigel> Gary: Then you could do normal inheritance
15:40:22 <nigel> Cyril: It's like langSrc, where the document can have multiple source languages
15:40:44 <nigel> .. I realise that langSrc is just one value but I thought we discussed having multiple values
15:41:48 <nigel> Nigel: Need to close this due to time. Please add comments to the issue clarifying the requirements.
15:41:51 <nigel> Cyril: OK
15:42:11 <nigel> SUMMARY: Reviewers to consider the PR and if necessary comment regarding the requirements, in the issue.
15:43:01 <nigel> Subtopic:  Add legacy metadata structure and media zero timecode metadata w3c/dapt#240
15:43:08 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/240
15:43:39 <nigel> Cyril: I added my comment already. Why add the legacy structure?
15:43:46 <nigel> .. Why make it an element not an attribute, e.g. on the tt element?
15:44:37 <nigel> Nigel: I wanted to provide a home for legacy conversion data, and to make it really clear that
15:44:48 <nigel> .. it isn't something that should carry any presentation semantics.
15:44:56 <nigel> .. We could do it the way you suggest, of course.
15:45:10 <nigel> .. I fear that people won't read the spec and putting the data here gives a really strong hint.
15:45:55 <nigel> Cyril: I think I raised the point in the past - it's not specific to DAPT, it could be a TTML thing.
15:46:13 <nigel> .. I understand that we need it in DAPT, but maybe we could define it in the TTML namespace, and transfer
15:46:17 <nigel> .. it into TTML2 later.
15:47:47 <atai> q+
15:47:49 <nigel> Nigel: I'm happy to consider other use cases, I actually don't know of any right now.
15:47:51 <nigel> ack at
15:48:07 <nigel> Andreas: I was present when we started the discussion but haven't followed the current solution of the issue.
15:48:25 <nigel> .. When we started I also had the feeling that it could have wider applicability than DAPT, and have other use cases,
15:48:35 <nigel> .. so would be better in another namespace, or aligned with the parent specification.
15:48:49 <nigel> .. Sorry for not fully reviewing what you have proposed here.
15:49:03 <nigel> .. What we have in EBU-TT, couldn't the same thing be expressed with what you propose here for DAPT?
15:49:21 <nigel> Nigel: I don't think so, happy to be shown otherwise.
15:51:17 <nigel> .. Need to close for time, please continue to review and discuss.
15:51:32 <nigel> .. Wonder how strong your feeling is about the data structure as proposed, Cyril?
15:51:53 <nigel> Cyril: I don't understand the point of the legacy metadata, why it's different from other conversion data.
15:52:08 <nigel> .. Also would like to see an informative reference to ESEF to explain it.
15:52:16 <nigel> SUMMARY: Review to continue
15:52:38 <nigel> Topic: IMSC superscript/subscript support w3c/imsc#583
15:52:49 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/583
15:53:06 <nigel> Nigel: This was discussed in the EBU Media Access Technology group call last Tuesday,
15:53:24 <nigel> .. and the main summary is that for French especially, if the feature were available it would be used,
15:53:38 <nigel> .. but French people are used to non-superscript ordinals at the moment.
15:53:59 <nigel> .. There are other similar use cases for numbers in chemical symbols or in "square metres" etc,
15:54:03 <nigel> .. in Norwegian and German.
15:54:36 <nigel> SUMMARY: EBU positive about requirement, unclear if anyone "cannot live without" the feature.
15:54:44 <nigel> Topic: TPAC 2024
15:55:18 <nigel> Nigel: We've had agenda requests - see https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/291
15:56:48 <nigel> Gary: I will be around remotely, at least on the Friday.
15:56:54 <nigel> Nigel: Time constraints for the WebVTT topics?
15:57:13 <nigel> Gary: I don't think I have any, I'm good to go at any time during the meeting
15:57:47 <nigel> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2024#Agenda_and_Schedule Wiki page
15:58:37 <nigel> Nigel: If anyone has any constraints on timing, please let us know
16:00:08 <nigel> .. MediaWG meets in the morning, we may be better using the afternoon for the WebVTT topics
16:00:23 <nigel> Gary: I'll ping James and Marcos to see if they have any time constraints.
16:02:11 <nigel> Nigel: Thank you
16:02:16 <nigel> Topic: Meeting close
16:02:36 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks everyone. Our next meeting will be, as on the TTWG Calendar, Monday 23rd September,
16:02:41 <nigel> .. joint with the MEIG.
16:02:45 <nigel> .. [adjourns meeting]
16:02:48 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/12-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:08:43 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:08:48 <nigel> zakim, end meeting
16:08:48 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Andreas, Cyril, Gary, Atsushi, Pierre
16:08:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:08:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/12-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:08:58 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:08:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tt
16:45:46 <nigel> rrsagent, excuse us
16:45:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items