Meeting minutes
Review agenda and next meeting dates
Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
Boaz_Sender: could we start the meeting with the TPAC conversation?
Matt_King: Sure
Matt_King: We'll start with that and CSUN
Matt_King: Next Community Group Meeting: Thursday September 19
Matt_King: No meeting on Wednesday September 25 (due to TPAC)
Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday October 7
TPAC
Matt_King: Could someone chair or coordinate a "breakout session" at TPAC on Wednesday? I don't feel like I can take on the logistics right now
Matt_King: It might be time to start socializing more at TPAC and other groups because there's a whole concept of "accessibility supported" in WCAG and I think our work is really relevant
Matt_King: It could be beneficial for those folks to be aware of our work
Matt_King: We might even include "WCAG Accessibility Supported" in the title of our session
Boaz_Sender: I have some bandwidth to help with the coordination part
Boaz_Sender: I might also be able to demo the app
Boaz_Sender: The automation subsystem might be particularly interesting to folks as a demo
Boaz_Sender: I don't necessarily have the technical know-how to field all questions related to that subsystem, but if you were there, then maybe you could help with that
Matt_King: I could answer some questions, though maybe not as many as jugglinmike. I wonder if remote participation is possible in the break-out sessions
Boaz_Sender: In previous years, they have been
Boaz_Sender: We can deliver the message about AT interop, showing our progress with this web application and novel standards-driven automation technology
Matt_King: Maybe also help show how this could help clarify or refine what WCAG says about "Accessibility supported"
Boaz_Sender: can you say more about that?
Matt_King: There's a section of the WCAG spec--when we did the announcement of the AT support tables 15 months ago (last May), I wrote about "accessibility supported" in that blog post
Matt_King: If you want to read something as a refresher, you can read that blog post
Matt_King: I'll add a link to the minutes
Michael_Fairchild: I know you're thinking about alignment with WCAG 3; are you also thinking about WCAG 2?
Matt_King: I think that's up for discussion
Matt_King: I don't know if there's even a place within WCAG techniques which are easily modifiable that could point to testing for, e.g., success criteria
Matt_King: There might be some ways that we could reach alignment with WCAG 2
Matt_King: Here's a link to that blog post
<Matt_King> Blog post that includes info about accessibility supported: https://
Boaz_Sender: Thanks!
Matt_King: It includes background on the project, so I think it could be interesting for others to read, too
ChrisCuellar: Just to be clear: Matt_King, you are open to co-presenting at TPAC?
Matt_King: Sure, I'm open to that. Though if I just turn out to be a commentator, then even better
CSUN
Matt_King: Presentation submission deadline is September 24
Matt_King: Specifically at 15:00
Matt_King: Probably one of the more likely benefits of a CSUN presentation would just be attracting more people to the community group who could do testing
Matt_King: That's a continuous concern. Next year, we're going to continue with pretty high testing volume
Matt_King: If we figure out how to do iOS and Android (Safari and Chrome), that's going to add even more need for testers
Matt_King: I think that's an important benefit and cause for pulling something together
Matt_King: While I think it's a good idea, I also know I personally tend to commit to too many things
Matt_King: I definitely wouldn't commit to this on my own, but if there are people here who know they will be at CSUN and who would like to help develop a presentation and deliver it, then I'd be open to that
Michael_Fairchild: I'd be happy to help out
Matt_King: I suppose we could always back out even if we submit and even if that submission is accepted
Matt_King: Anyone else interested in helping out?
Matt_King: TPAC is in March 2025 in California (very close to the TPAC venue, coincidentally)
mmoss: I may be going
Boaz_Sender: I'm going to talk with ChrisCuellar about the idea of ChrisCuellar attending
Matt_King: I submitted proposals to AXE-Con two years in a row and then two years in a row, I had to decline
Matt_King: Which is to say: I have some content prepared already
Matt_King: I'll try to put a draft together based on that and share it with mmoss, Michael_Fairchild, and Boaz_Sender
Current status
Matt_King: Our goal is 20 plans with support tables in APG, 10 recommended and 10 in candidate review by the end of the year
Matt_King: We're really close to having 10 plans in the new refactored state. We might be able to get there in the next couple weeks
Matt_King: Seven are done. Then we have the "action menu button" which is almost done with testing
Matt_King: The two others are "navigation menu button" and "disclosure"
Matt_King: Disclosure is temporarily on hold. We'll bring it back once IsaDC discuss it during our meeting next Tuesday
IsaDC: That's right
Matt_King: It'd be great to have current data for all the test plans on the "reports" page in time for TPAC
Matt_King: It will definitely improve the 1-on-1 conversations I'm planning to have with Apple
Testing action menu button with activeDescendant
mmoss: I'm still working on this. I can get on it by the end of the week
IsaDC: We need to do some changes, but I don't think it will affect the results because the changes only concern assertion priorities
Matt_King: Right--that shouldn't impact any results
Matt_King: Did you already merge the changes for navigation menu button, IsaDC?
IsaDC: No, I wanted you to look, first
Matt_King: For "action menu button", though...?
IsaDC: Right, there was a mistake there, but I've since fixed it
IsaDC: I need to create a new pull request for "action menu button with activeDescendant" with these changes
Matt_King: We should be able to wrap this up, then--assuming that mmoss's test results don't have any conflicts with what we've already got
mmoss: If there are any conflicts, I can send an e-mail
IsaDC: Or raise an issue if the results are very different. Sometimes it's just mistakes that I make for running it too fast
Testing navigation menu button
IsaDC: I wanted you to take one more look before we do the merge. I already implemented the changes you asked for
Matt_King: I think that in a prior meeting, we may have already had some people volunteer for some of the runs for this test plan...
Matt_King: We did talk about this when we met about two weeks ago
Matt_King: mmoss if we need another person on this test plan, would you have any availability next week and the following week?
mmoss: Yes. I'd prefer VoiceOver if possible
mmoss: Though I have access to NVDA, JAWS, and VoiceOver
Matt_King: In terms of priority, because the "navigation menu button" already has a report on the "reports" page, I would like to prioritize that one
IsaDC: Got it
IsaDC: What about "radio group"?
Matt_King: we can work on getting it ready to go, but I want to make sure we get "disclosure navigation menu" wrapped up
Matt_King: The two that I want to make sure we get done next are the "navigation menu button" and the "disclosure navigation menu" because those already have entries on the "reports" page, and doing so would mean that all the reports have data that's up-to-date
New conflict resolution experience
howard-e: The feedback on this has been addressed; I think it's ready to be looked at again
<howard-e> https://
howard-e: To recap: we can get to the "conflicts" page from the test queue; currently, there's just one test plan there
howard-e: (All of this is on the "sandbox" server)
howard-e: You still have to be logged in to view this page, though we talked about expanding the public views. That's part of a change that will come afterwards
Matt_King: Which test plan should we look at?
howard-e: The "toggle button" with VoiceOver
Matt_King: Most of the changes we wanted were on this page
howard-e: Right. One big difference is in the group of disclosures under "h2" conflicts
howard-e: Now, the disclosures contain headings which will be the names of the commands themselves
howard-e: We added the "assertions output" table
howard-e: That's the first table that shows up in that "disclosure" section under whichever command
howard-e: The second table is still the "assertions toggle" table itself
howard-e: Before, all the assertions were being shown even if they weren't conflicting. Now, the "assertions toggle" table only shows assertions which are in conflict between the testers
Matt_King: This is very easy to read, now!
IsaDC: Agreed
howard-e:
howard-e: If any tester reports an unexpected behavior for a test, it will create a row with some string text which says the impact and any additional details that the tester has included
Matt_King: I was thinking about putting accessible names on each of these tables
IsaDC: That would be helpful
Matt_King: The first table could be named "output" followed by the heading
Matt_King: If the table was named "output after B, quick nav on", the second table could be "assertions after B, quick nav on", and the third could be "unexpected behaviors after B, quick nav on"
Matt_King: We agreed to change the term "unexpected behaviors" to "side effects"
howard-e: Separately, because of the changes made here (by Stalgia at Bocoup), there are now two buttons at the bottom
IsaDC: Thank you. This is very clear. It was too crowded before, but this is much better
IsaDC: The names for the table would be helpful because it would give you several options when navigating with a screen reader
Matt_King: Yeah, wow, this is great! Especially compared to what we've had up until now
Matt_King: Feel free to deploy this to production and we can work with this in real life
Work in the "test builder" ARIA-AT repository
howard-e: I've made a pull request to handle multiple commands separated by a space
<howard-e> w3c/
howard-e: If you could take a look at that patch when you have a chance, that'd be great!