17:07:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
17:07:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-aria-at-irc
17:07:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:07:30 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
17:07:35 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
17:07:39 <jugglinmike> present+ ChrisCuellar
17:07:42 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
17:11:02 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-at
17:11:06 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
17:11:10 <mmoss> mmoss has joined #aria-at
17:11:24 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
17:12:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
17:13:27 <jugglinmike> present+ Boaz_Sender
17:13:37 <jugglinmike> Boaz_Sender: could we start the meeting with the TPAC conversation?
17:13:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sure
17:13:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll start with that and CSUN
17:13:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next Community Group Meeting: Thursday September 19
17:14:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: No meeting on Wednesday September 25 (due to TPAC)
17:14:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday October 7
17:14:16 <jugglinmike> Topic: TPAC
17:15:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Could someone chair or coordinate a "breakout session" at TPAC on Wednesday? I don't feel like I can take on the logistics right now
17:15:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It might be time to start socializing more at TPAC and other groups because there's a whole concept of "accessibility supported" in WCAG and I think our work is really relevant
17:15:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It could be beneficial for those folks to be aware of our work
17:16:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We might even include "WCAG Accessibility Supported" in the title of our session
17:16:30 <jugglinmike> Boaz_Sender: I have some bandwidth to help with the coordination part
17:16:39 <jugglinmike> Boaz_Sender: I might also be able to demo the app
17:17:03 <jugglinmike> Boaz_Sender: The automation subsystem might be particularly interesting to folks as a demo
17:17:39 <jugglinmike> Boaz_Sender: I don't necessarily have the technical know-how to field all questions related to that subsystem, but if you were there, then maybe you could help with that
17:18:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I could answer some questions, though maybe not as many as jugglinmike. I wonder if remote participation is possible in the break-out sessions
17:18:22 <jugglinmike> Boaz_Sender: In previous years, they have been
17:19:05 <jugglinmike> Boaz_Sender: We can deliver the message about AT interop, showing our progress with this web application and novel standards-driven automation technology
17:19:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe also help show how this could help clarify or refine what WCAG says about "Accessibility supported"
17:19:31 <jugglinmike> Boaz_Sender: can you say more about that?
17:20:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's a section of the WCAG spec--when we did the announcement of the AT support tables 15 months ago (last May), I wrote about "accessibility supported" in that blog post
17:20:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you want to read something as a refresher, you can read that blog post
17:20:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll add a link to the minutes
17:20:56 <jugglinmike> present+ Michael_Fairchild
17:21:23 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: I know you're thinking about alignment with WCAG 3; are you also thinking about WCAG 2?
17:21:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that's up for discussion
17:22:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if there's even a place within WCAG techniques which are easily modifiable that could point to testing for, e.g., success criteria
17:22:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There might be some ways that we could reach alignment with WCAG 2
17:22:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Here's a link to that blog post
17:22:40 <Matt_King> Blog post that includes info about accessibility supported: https://www.w3.org/blog/2023/04/answering-what-aria-can-i-use/
17:22:59 <jugglinmike> Boaz_Sender: Thanks!
17:23:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It includes background on the project, so I think it could be interesting for others to read, too
17:24:01 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Just to be clear: Matt_King, you are open to co-presenting at TPAC?
17:24:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sure, I'm open to that. Though if I just turn out to be a commentator, then even better
17:24:36 <jugglinmike> Topic: CSUN
17:24:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Presentation submission deadline is September 24
17:24:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Specifically at 15:00
17:25:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Probably one of the more likely benefits of a CSUN presentation would just be attracting more people to the community group who could do testing
17:25:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's a continuous concern. Next year, we're going to continue with pretty high testing volume
17:25:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we figure out how to do iOS and Android (Safari and Chrome), that's going to add even more need for testers
17:26:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that's an important benefit and cause for pulling something together
17:26:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: While I think it's a good idea, I also know I personally tend to commit to too many things
17:26:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I definitely wouldn't commit to this on my own, but if there are people here who know they will be at CSUN and who would like to help develop a presentation and deliver it, then I'd be open to that
17:27:11 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: I'd be happy to help out
17:27:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I suppose we could always back out even if we submit and even if that submission is accepted
17:27:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Anyone else interested in helping out?
17:28:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: TPAC is in March 2025 in California (very close to the TPAC venue, coincidentally)
17:28:38 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I may be going
17:28:56 <jugglinmike> Boaz_Sender: I'm going to talk with ChrisCuellar about the idea of ChrisCuellar attending
17:29:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I submitted proposals to AXE-Con two years in a row and then two years in a row, I had to decline
17:29:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Which is to say: I have some content prepared already
17:30:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll try to put a draft together based on that and share it with mmoss, Michael_Fairchild, and Boaz_Sender
17:31:01 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
17:31:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Our goal is 20 plans with support tables in APG, 10 recommended and 10 in candidate review by the end of the year
17:31:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're really close to having 10 plans in the new refactored state. We might be able to get there in the next couple weeks
17:32:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Seven are done. Then we have the "action menu button" which is almost done with testing
17:32:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The two others are "navigation menu button" and "disclosure"
17:32:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Disclosure is temporarily on hold. We'll bring it back once IsaDC discuss it during our meeting next Tuesday
17:32:52 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
17:32:55 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: That's right
17:33:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It'd be great to have current data for all the test plans on the "reports" page in time for TPAC
17:33:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It will definitely improve the 1-on-1 conversations I'm planning to have with Apple
17:33:48 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing action menu button with activeDescendant
17:34:24 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I'm still working on this. I can get on it by the end of the week
17:34:44 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: We need to do some changes, but I don't think it will affect the results because the changes only concern assertion priorities
17:34:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right--that shouldn't impact any results
17:35:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Did you already merge the changes for navigation menu button, IsaDC?
17:35:32 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: No, I wanted you to look, first
17:35:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For "action menu button", though
17:35:52 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Right, there was a mistake there, but I've since fixed it
17:35:58 <jugglinmike> s/though/though...?/
17:36:40 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I need to create a new pull request for "action menu button with activeDescendant" with these changes
17:37:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We should be able to wrap this up, then--assuming that mmoss's test results don't have any conflicts with what we've already got
17:37:26 <jugglinmike> mmoss: If there are any conflicts, I can send an e-mail
17:38:02 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Or raise an issue if the results are very different. Sometimes it's just mistakes that I make for running it too fast
17:38:10 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing navigation menu button
17:38:30 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I wanted you to take one more look before we do the merge. I already implemented the changes you asked for
17:38:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that in a prior meeting, we may have already had some people volunteer for some of the runs for this test plan...
17:39:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We did talk about this when we met about two weeks ago
17:39:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: mmoss if we need another person on this test plan, would you have any availability next week and the following week?
17:39:45 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Yes. I'd prefer VoiceOver if possible
17:40:45 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Though I have access to NVDA, JAWS, and VoiceOver
17:41:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In terms of priority, because the "navigation menu button" already has a report on the "reports" page, I would like to prioritize that one
17:41:24 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Got it
17:41:33 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: What about "radio group"?
17:41:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: we can work on getting it ready to go, but I want to make sure we get "disclosure navigation menu" wrapped up
17:42:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The two that I want to make sure we get done next are the "navigation menu button" and the "disclosure navigation menu" because those already have entries on the "reports" page, and doing so would mean that all the reports have data that's up-to-date
17:42:43 <jugglinmike> Topic: New conflict resolution experience
17:43:00 <jugglinmike> howard-e: The feedback on this has been addressed; I think it's ready to be looked at again
17:43:20 <howard-e> https://aria-at-app-sandbox.bocoup.com/test-queue/235/conflicts
17:43:20 <jugglinmike> howard-e: To recap: we can get to the "conflicts" page from the test queue; currently, there's just one test plan there
17:43:28 <jugglinmike> howard-e: (All of this is on the "sandbox" server)
17:43:56 <jugglinmike> howard-e: You still have to be logged in to view this page, though we talked about expanding the public views. That's part of a change that will come afterwards
17:44:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Which test plan should we look at?
17:44:14 <jugglinmike> howard-e: The "toggle button" with VoiceOver
17:45:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Most of the changes we wanted were on this page
17:46:13 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Right. One big difference is in the group of disclosures under "h2" conflicts
17:46:37 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Now, the disclosures contain headings which will be the names of the commands themselves
17:46:51 <jugglinmike> howard-e: We added the "assertions output" table
17:47:06 <jugglinmike> howard-e: That's the first table that shows up in that "disclosure" section under whichever command
17:47:19 <jugglinmike> howard-e: The second table is still the "assertions toggle" table itself
17:47:54 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Before, all the assertions were being shown even if they weren't conflicting. Now, the "assertions toggle" table only shows assertions which are in conflict between the testers
17:47:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is very easy to read, now!
17:48:02 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Agreed
17:48:04 <jugglinmike> howard-e:
17:48:51 <jugglinmike> howard-e: If any tester reports an unexpected behavior for a test, it will create a row with some string text which says the impact and any additional details that the tester has included
17:49:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I was thinking about putting accessible names on each of these tables
17:49:41 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: That would be helpful
17:50:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The first table could be named "output" followed by the heading
17:50:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If the table was named "output after B, quick nav on", the second table could be "assertions after B, quick nav on", and the third could be "unexpected behaviors after B, quick nav on"
17:51:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We agreed to change the term "unexpected behaviors" to "side effects"
17:52:08 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Separately, because of the changes made here (by Stalgia at Bocoup), there are now two buttons at the bottom
17:52:21 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Thank you. This is very clear. It was too crowded before, but this is much better
17:52:45 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: The names for the table would be helpful because it would give you several options when navigating with a screen reader
17:53:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yeah, wow, this is great! Especially compared to what we've had up until now
17:53:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Feel free to deploy this to production and we can work with this in real life
17:54:02 <jugglinmike> Topic: Work in the "test builder" ARIA-AT repository
17:54:20 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I've made a pull request to handle multiple commands separated by a space
17:54:30 <howard-e> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/pull/1125
17:54:38 <jugglinmike> howard-e: If you could take a look at that patch when you have a chance, that'd be great@!
17:54:44 <jugglinmike> s/great@!/great!/
17:55:20 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
17:55:20 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been mmoss, jugglinmike, ChrisCuellar, howard-e, Matt_King, Boaz_Sender, Michael_Fairchild, IsaDC
17:55:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:55:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/11-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
17:55:31 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:55:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
17:55:37 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
17:55:37 <RRSAgent> I see no action items