15:58:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:58:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/09/05-rdf-star-irc
15:59:19 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/23bcb331-af6e-40af-98f1-11c029455d12/20240905T120000/
15:59:19 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:59:19 <agendabot> agenda+ TPAC goals & topics -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-rdf-star-minutes.html#t03
15:59:19 <agendabot> agenda+ Continuation of last week's discussions. -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-rdf-star-minutes.html#t02
15:59:19 <agendabot> agenda+ rdf:states/rdf:asserts
15:59:28 <tl> present+
15:59:32 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #rdf-star
15:59:59 <niklasl> present+
16:00:04 <fsasaki> regrets+
16:00:20 <pfps> present+
16:00:26 <AndyS> present+
16:00:55 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:01:01 <enrico> present+
16:01:14 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
16:01:23 <gkellogg> present+
16:01:27 <gtw> present+
16:01:29 <william_vw> william_vw has joined #rdf-star
16:01:33 <ora> present+
16:01:35 <eBremer> present+
16:01:35 <ora> chair+
16:01:38 <william_vw> present+
16:01:48 <ktk> present+
16:02:03 <pchampin> present+
16:02:11 <AndyS> scribe+
16:02:14 <ktk> Meeting: RDF-star WG biweekly focused meeting
16:02:19 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
16:02:22 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/05-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:02:26 <AndyS> agenda?
16:02:34 <TallTed> present+
16:02:39 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log public
16:02:51 <AndyS> ora: TPAC planning
16:03:13 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:03:13 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- TPAC goals & topics -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-rdf-star-minutes.html#t03 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:03:13 <AndyS> ... earlier idea was refining details
16:03:30 <ora> q?
16:03:34 <AndyS> ... reserve some time for semantics and model
16:03:37 <AndyS> q+
16:03:39 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
16:03:42 <ora> ack AndyS
16:03:42 <pchampin> scribe+
16:03:46 <AZ> present+
16:04:04 <pchampin> AndyS: another thing to be aware of is that we may have a visitor, of note.
16:04:16 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:04:16 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/06-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:04:21 <pchampin> ... We might want to prep him about the current state of the WG. This would make things easier.
16:04:38 <pchampin> ... We have to to a general briefing anyway, for other's sake.
16:04:51 <AndyS> ora: may prepare a few slides
16:04:51 <pchampin> scribe-
16:04:52 <AndyS> ... 1 - where are we?
16:05:13 <AndyS> ... 2 - points of contention - areas of debate
16:05:28 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:05:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:05:35 <olaf> present+
16:06:04 <AndyS> ... there will be questions about syntax but I'd like to the focus abstract syntax and semantics
16:06:21 <AndyS> ... concrete syntax can be done afterwards
16:07:04 <tl> q+
16:07:05 <AndyS> ... I had discussion with LPG person. Hard to explain reifiers and named graphs
16:07:09 <ora> ack tl
16:07:25 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
16:07:29 <AndyS> tl: I made a proposal about named graphs
16:07:39 <doerthe> present+
16:07:47 <AndyS> ... noted at the time - they were in use for other things
16:07:49 <niklasl> Are we debating this, or mentioning it?
16:08:24 <AndyS> ora: This is not reopening the discussion. The concern is explaining to the wider audience.
16:08:30 <enrico> q+
16:08:37 <ora> ack enrico
16:08:40 <AndyS> tl: Don't want to reopen the discussion
16:09:06 <AndyS> enrico: We could defer until the basics are stable.
16:09:16 <niklasl> We need to present the differences clearly and concisely. And anchor this in the group?
16:09:22 <niklasl> q+
16:10:02 <AndyS> ... what we are doing is many-many naming which can capture the ideas of named graphs / quads.
16:10:31 <ora3> ora3 has joined #rdf-star
16:10:36 <niklasl> It's not the same as the named graph notion. There are some crucial differences.
16:10:41 <AndyS> ... reifier id is the 4th element of a quad. This is my observation.
16:10:44 <ora3> chair+
16:10:47 <ora3> present+
16:10:53 <ora3> q?
16:10:57 <ora3> ack niklasl
16:11:44 <AndyS> niklasl: we need to clearly explain the differences. Maybe if not done in time for TPAC we should defer.
16:11:54 <AndyS> q+
16:11:57 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:12:03 <ora3> ack AndyS
16:12:03 <niklasl> I can have a go.
16:12:11 <pchampin> scribe+
16:12:26 <pchampin> AndyS: one of the things that can be relevant for TPAC is the fact that N3 graphs are opaque.
16:12:42 <niklasl> That's one important difference.
16:12:50 <doerthe> if you want some connection to N3, I can also help with the slides ora
16:12:53 <pchampin> ... This was part of last year's discussion. We can bring that up and explain about transparency.
16:13:29 <pchampin> ... The other thing is: we found it too hard. It is too big to reinvent RDF with graph literals, whatever graph literals are in this case.
16:13:32 <niklasl> The other main difference is that there is a named relationship between the reifier and each triple (term). This can also be "SHACL:d" and/or OWL-constrained.
16:13:33 <pchampin> scribe-
16:13:41 <AndyS> ora: Will draft some slides.
16:14:11 <AndyS> ... when slides done., will send out to interested parties.
16:14:16 <ktk> q+
16:14:21 <ora3> ack ktk
16:14:21 <AndyS> ... what else at TPAC
16:14:37 <AndyS> ktk: Process backlog?
16:15:05 <AndyS> ora: I gave a talk at tech user community of LDBC
16:15:20 <AndyS> ... interesting points raised
16:15:58 <AndyS> ... support for multiple reifiers of a triple
16:16:14 <AndyS> ... may relate to some ongoing LPG thinking
16:16:20 <niklasl> (And just as I'm not friends with a set of people, but with each of my friends, a refiier reifies one or more triples (not the set of them)?)
16:16:57 <AndyS> ... trying to schedule time with Alistair Green
16:17:30 <AndyS> ... I had not expected LPG to be a dynamic target
16:18:04 <ora3> q?
16:18:23 <AndyS> ... some discussion at TPAC to bring people up-to-date.
16:19:02 <AndyS> ktk: how do we align the areas e.g. schema
16:19:25 <AndyS> ... whatever that means. Better to be proactive.
16:19:25 <enrico> q+
16:20:11 <ora3> ack enrico
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16:20:16 <AndyS> enrico: I have been invited to contribute to LPG schema graph.
16:20:33 <Dominik_T> Present+
16:20:44 <AndyS> ... "Relational AI" - strong on data modelling
16:21:07 <ora3> q+
16:21:10 <Souri> Regarding undirected edges, couldn't we actually extend s-p-o in RDF to include a 3-valued direction value: forward, reverse, and none?
16:21:23 <AndyS> ... bringing traditions of LDBC starting from relational databases - ER c.f. RDFS.
16:21:36 <tl> q+ to ask if the two TPAC meetings (Tuesday and Thursday) have different purposes
16:21:38 <ora3> ack ora
16:21:42 <AndyS> ... will be weekly meetings from mid-September
16:21:59 <AndyS> ora: there has some activity already
16:22:24 <AndyS> ... interesting to see joint work starting
16:22:51 <AndyS> enrico: subset of PG-schema + PG keys
16:22:55 <ora3> ack tl
16:22:55 <Zakim> tl, you wanted to ask if the two TPAC meetings (Tuesday and Thursday) have different purposes
16:23:18 <pchampin> q?
16:23:19 <AndyS> tl: Two meetings at TPAC - different purposes?
16:23:20 <pchampin> q+
16:23:26 <ora3> ack pchampin
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16:23:57 <AndyS> pchampin: some missing stuff on the calendar
16:24:03 <AndyS> ...  may not be accurate
16:24:20 <AndyS> ... I think we have 4 slots overall
16:24:20 <niklasl> https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/#schedule
16:24:38 <AndyS> ... 2 full half days = 4 slots
16:24:46 <AndyS> ... one is shared with JSON-LD
16:25:09 <AndyS> .. about triple terms and all that in JSON-LD
16:25:27 <AndyS> ora: the chairs will sketch out the TPAC time.
16:26:11 <AndyS> ktk: 18:00 CET start , Tuesday and Thursday
16:27:00 <AndyS> gkellogg: I see 2 AM entries  Tuesday and Thursday 9am Pacfic time
16:27:06 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:27:06 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Continuation of last week's discussions. -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-rdf-star-minutes.html#t02 -- taken up [from agendabot]
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16:28:08 <AndyS> ktk: we did not finish the discussion from Semantics TF.
16:28:21 <AndyS> ora: we were not ready to vote.
16:28:49 <AndyS> s/PG-keys/PG keys + PG-types/
16:28:50 <enrico> q+
16:28:56 <ora3> ack enrico
16:29:02 <AndyS> enrico: Summary --
16:29:08 <william_vw> sorry, what does LDBC stand for?
16:29:33 <AndyS> ... issue is whether well-formed fragment with rdf:reifies + triple term.
16:29:38 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:29:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:29:45 <olaf> LDBC = Linked Data Benchmark Council
16:29:59 <olaf> https://ldbcouncil.org/
16:30:07 <william_vw> thanks olaf
16:30:15 <AndyS> ... want other properties allowed and it becomes a rdf:ReificationProperty
16:30:22 <ora3> q?
16:31:00 <AndyS> ... we can get remove the well-formed condition / syntax restriction.
16:31:23 <AndyS> s/well-formed condition/s/well-formed RDF condition/
16:31:51 <ora3> q+
16:31:56 <pchampin> s/Continuation of last week's discussions./Proposed resultion by Semantics TF (cont.)
16:31:58 <ora3> ack ora
16:32:05 <AndyS> ... if you do something  bizarre , bizarre things happen. i.e. no hard restriction
16:32:31 <AndyS> ora: if we say don't mix with old reification then what?
16:32:32 <gkellogg> q+
16:32:35 <tl> q+
16:32:39 <AndyS> ... we have to answer that.
16:33:00 <tl> q-
16:33:09 <gtw> q+
16:33:31 <AndyS> enrico: old style continues to work., It is a mix of old+new (triple terms) - RDF 1.1 data does not have triple terms so not affected.
16:33:38 <ora3> ack gkellogg
16:34:11 <AndyS> gkellogg: we need to consider RDF 1.1 reification for mapping to classical RDF
16:34:25 <pchampin> q+
16:35:00 <AndyS> ... I think an intuition is that rdf:reifies + triple terms gives a translation to RDF 1.1
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16:35:07 <ora3> ack gtw
16:35:09 <AndyS> ... RDF/XML ... unclear.
16:35:40 <AndyS> gtw: no probs only true for data - not tooling.
16:35:53 <AndyS> ... e.g. unexpected triple term.
16:36:06 <AndyS> ... such tooling will break
16:36:18 <AndyS> ... Not restricted to reification
16:36:49 <AndyS> ... new data will break existing modelling
16:36:52 <ora3> ack pchampin
16:36:53 <enrico> q+
16:36:58 <niklasl> q+
16:37:31 <AndyS> pchampin: This is like RDF Collection vs RDF Seq (RDF 1.1  and RDF 1.0)
16:38:14 <AndyS> .. RDF 1.1 WG decision was not to deprecate rdf:Seq - marked "archaic" to suggest using new forms.
16:38:23 <ora3> ack enrico
16:38:27 <AndyS> s/.. RDF/... RDF/
16:38:43 <ktk> q+
16:38:55 <doerthe> q+
16:39:23 <AndyS> enrico: Two elements - I'm unclear what to do. Anything with new forms will break RDF 1.1 tools.
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16:40:16 <AndyS> ... triple terms only have a meaning if used in a certain way.
16:41:02 <ora3> ack niklasl
16:41:04 <AndyS> ... not clear the problem will appear.
16:41:18 <AndyS> niklasl: SPIN example interesting.
16:41:34 <AndyS> ... RDF 1.1 reification is a pattern.
16:43:01 <AndyS> ... any property that might reference a triple term is a rdf:ReifierProperty
16:44:05 <doerthe> I currently don't see how we can align with N3 because of the opacity, but maybe it is possible
16:44:08 <AndyS> ... SPIN is  (was) doing something meta.
16:44:50 <AndyS> enrico: misunderstanding about statements and triple terms
16:45:42 <AndyS> ... the reifier denotes the triple term.
16:45:56 <AndyS> ... the triple term is the triple term.
16:47:11 <ora3> ack ktk
16:47:14 <AndyS> ... tomorrow ...
16:47:28 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:47:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/05-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:47:35 <doerthe> that is btw. why I want to emphasize that much that there is a difference between triples and triple terms
16:47:37 <AndyS> ktk: similar problems at RDF 1.1 e.g. PREFIX
16:47:39 <doerthe> even in the semantics
16:47:46 <AndyS> ... some tools got left behind
16:48:01 <AndyS> ... some tools update
16:48:07 <ora3> ack doerthe
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16:48:55 <niklasl> present+
16:49:15 <AndyS> doerthe: to Gregory: whether the class of reification property makes sense in the examples.
16:49:58 <AndyS> ... can use the property with things other than triple terms.
16:50:09 <tl> q+
16:50:16 <ora3> ack tl
16:50:16 <william_vw> q+
16:50:24 <pchampin> +1 to what doerthe said
16:50:36 <AndyS> tl: not seeing a problem
16:51:00 <AndyS> ... in general, "tools may break" is inevitable
16:51:14 <AndyS> q+
16:51:17 <ora3> ack william_vw
16:51:45 <AndyS> william_vw: I disagree that it is not a problem.
16:52:02 <pchampin> s|SPIN example|SPIN (https://spinrdf.org/) example
16:52:25 <AndyS> ... as I understood it, a triple term is used and has a reifier
16:52:45 <AndyS> ... what gtx points out there are other contexts
16:52:59 <pchampin> q+
16:53:02 <AndyS> ... a statement which is not to assign a reifier
16:53:20 <AndyS> ... but the inferences mix in
16:53:40 <pchampin> q-
16:53:55 <AndyS> q-
16:54:08 <AndyS> is this a condition for the unstar work?
16:54:46 <AndyS> ora: a continuing discussion
16:55:31 <AndyS> enrico: Semantics meeting tomorrow
16:55:40 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:55:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/05-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:56:50 <ktk> present+
16:59:18 <ktk> s/to to/to/
16:59:34 <ktk> s/reslution/resolution/
16:59:40 <ktk> s/refiier/reifier/
16:59:46 <ktk> s/Pacfic/Pacific/
17:00:06 <ktk> s/gtx/gtw/
17:00:12 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:00:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/05-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
17:00:41 <ktk> s/have to a/have to do a/
17:00:44 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:00:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/05-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
17:02:46 <ktk> RRSAgent, leave
17:02:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items