13:46:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
13:46:23 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-irc
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13:46:53 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star Semantics TF
13:46:55 <TallTed> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:46:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
13:46:58 <TallTed> rrsagent, make logs public
13:46:59 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20240830T100000/
13:46:59 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:46:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Discussion on having a more liberal use of reification properties as in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22, as opposed to have the strict well formed fragment with just rdf:reifies.
13:46:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Discussion on whether or not to limit the (abstract) syntax to have triple terms only in object position.
13:47:11 <TallTed> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:47:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
13:47:51 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-rdf-star-minutes.html
13:47:53 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/05-rdf-star-minutes.html
13:57:06 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
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14:01:54 <niklasl> present+
14:01:57 <TallTed> present+
14:02:35 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:02:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:02:44 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
14:02:44 <enrico> present+
14:03:19 <william_vw> william_vw has joined #rdf-star
14:03:28 <tl> present+
14:03:31 <gkellogg_> present+
14:03:35 <william_vw> present+
14:04:53 <Souri7> Souri7 has joined #rdf-star
14:04:59 <pchampin> present+
14:05:27 <Souri7> present+
14:07:31 <william_vw> q+
14:08:03 <enrico> ack william_vw
14:09:59 <pchampin> q+
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14:11:38 <enrico> ack pchampin
14:12:17 <niklasl> owl:sameAs a rdf:Property # so it may be in the intersection of ReificationProperty and "regular" properties...?
14:12:46 <tl> q+
14:13:10 <william_vw> q+
14:13:22 <niklasl> +1 for the Literal:ish view of triple terms
14:13:23 <enrico> ack tl
14:14:55 <enrico> q+
14:15:05 <enrico> ack william_vw
14:15:05 <gkellogg_> ack william_vw
14:15:07 <niklasl> q+
14:16:55 <niklasl> owl:sameAs is used with blank nodes a lot (OTOH it's also very misused)
14:18:56 <enrico> ack niklasl
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14:20:15 <AndyS> owl:sameAs rdfs:domain owl:Thing .
14:20:15 <AndyS> owl:sameAs rdfs:range owl:Thing .
14:21:35 <tl> q+
14:21:39 <enrico> ack enrico
14:22:45 <enrico> ack tl
14:22:59 <Souri7> q+
14:23:00 <gkellogg_> q+
14:23:24 <enrico> ack souri
14:23:50 <niklasl> I could live with the stricter syntactic restriction (noting that I am also for only allowing rdf:reifies at this point / for RDF 1.2).
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14:24:34 <pchampin> q+ to discuss the notion of "minimal" as argued by Souri
14:28:06 <enrico> ack gkellogg_
14:29:22 <Souri7> q+
14:30:35 <enrico> ack pchampin
14:30:35 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to discuss the notion of "minimal" as argued by Souri
14:32:11 <niklasl> q+
14:32:56 <enrico> ack Souri
14:33:21 <TallTed> q+
14:35:07 <enrico> q+
14:35:45 <AndyS> q+
14:35:52 <enrico> ack niklasl
14:39:06 <enrico> acl tallted
14:39:14 <enrico> ack tallted
14:39:55 <william_vw> q+
14:40:05 <Souri7> q+
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14:43:25 <AndyS> ack enrico
14:45:21 <enrico> ack andys
14:47:11 <TallTed> +1 SHACL. I meant to mention it.
14:48:21 <enrico> q?
14:48:33 <enrico> ack william_vw
14:51:02 <william_vw> pchampin sorry :_)
14:52:39 <pchampin> q?
14:52:41 <pchampin> q+
14:55:10 <enrico> ack souri
14:56:01 <AndyS> I very much hope that our non-REC guide to using RDF 1.2 reification covers good and bad patterns.
14:56:02 <TallTed> "warn when loading data that is inconsistent with previously loaded data" vs "warn when loading data that is internally inconsistent" vs "prevent loading data that is internally inconsistent" vs "let me load anything" (among other options)
14:56:32 <enrico> q+
14:56:35 <TallTed> such optional switches are (or should be) always viable. forcing any of these via spec seems not so viable.
14:56:43 <enrico> ack pchampin
14:57:23 <niklasl> +1 to AndyS on good/bad patterns (adding to my draft notes)
14:58:03 <tl> q+
14:58:29 <william_vw> +1 to pchampin on having additional layers cope with this
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14:59:05 <Souri> present+
14:59:10 <AndyS> present+
14:59:34 <Souri> q+
14:59:43 <pchampin> I think that Souri's use-case is about one-to-many, not one-to-one
15:03:09 <enrico> ack enrico
15:04:17 <pchampin> I don't see any reason to forbid/prevent subproperties of rdf:reifies (in RDFS, that is)
15:05:43 <enrico> ack tl
15:06:52 <enrico> ack souri
15:07:19 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
15:07:35 <pchampin> q+
15:07:36 <Souri> q+
15:08:05 <niklasl> ... apart from semantics...
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15:09:04 <Souri2> present+
15:09:21 <enrico> ack pchampin
15:10:23 <niklasl> q+
15:10:29 <enrico> ack souri
15:11:37 <enrico> ack niklasl
15:14:43 <Souri2> q+
15:14:48 <enrico> ack souri
15:15:20 <enrico> q+
15:15:23 <niklasl> q+
15:16:22 <gkellogg_> We have a syntax for arbitrary predicates used with Triple Terms in Turtle: `:r :p1 <<(...)>>>`
15:16:29 <pchampin> gkellogg_ +1
15:16:38 <niklasl> +1 to gkellogg_
15:17:16 <Souri2> I was thinking about a shortcut akin to :r | :s :p:o .
15:17:24 <niklasl> My point was a lot about the shorthands catering for the (so far) "understood/non-experimental" case.
15:17:28 <Souri2> s/:p:o/:p :o/
15:18:15 <gkellogg_> Short cuts are to aide common usage patterns; trying to invent a short cut style that extends to arbitrary predicates would seem outside our scope.
15:18:40 <pchampin> q+
15:18:42 <Souri2> :r [:p1] | :s :p :o .
15:19:07 <Souri2> or something along that line
15:19:11 <tl> gkellogg_ but that's what the annotation syntax does
15:19:11 <enrico> ack enrico
15:19:23 <gkellogg_> (Best start adopting to the actual syntax: `:s :p :o ~ :r`)
15:20:33 <gkellogg_> `:s :p :o ~ :r` could result in a different predicate than `<<:s :p :o ~ :r>>`
15:20:42 <Souri2> :s :p :o ~ :r | :p1 . ?
15:21:14 <enrico> May I say that I really really dislike the "~" syntax?
15:21:36 <enrico> ack niklasl
15:21:41 <enrico> ack pchampin
15:24:35 <william_vw> under datatype entailment: "RDF processors MAY treat an unsatisfiable graph as signaling an error condition, but this is not required."
15:24:37 <william_vw> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-mt/#datatype-entailment
15:24:53 <enrico> q?
15:24:54 <Souri2> +1 to PA
15:25:40 <niklasl> q+
15:25:49 <enrico> niklasl
15:25:55 <enrico> ack niklasl
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15:27:18 <tl> q+
15:28:25 <enrico> ack tl
15:29:01 <gkellogg_> `<<(...)>> a rdf:TripleTerm`
15:29:33 <niklasl> That can be entailed, but I see no need to write it.
15:29:52 <niklasl> true a xsd:boolean .
15:30:24 <Souri2> disallowing triple-term in position other than the object position (as a syntactic restriction in RDF) => none of the properties in the rdf:ReificationProperty class can have an inverse property
15:30:56 <niklasl> ex:nameOf owl:inverseOf foaf:name .
15:31:07 <TallTed> there is no requirement that every property must be invertable
15:31:28 <Souri2> +1 to PA's point: "20"^^xsd:decimal :ageOf :john . is not allowed in RDF
15:31:40 <gkellogg_> `rdf:TripleTerm is rdf:type of <<(...)>>>`
15:33:28 <pchampin> q?
15:33:35 <niklasl> q+
15:33:46 <enrico> ack niklasl
15:35:32 <TallTed> sadly, I have to bounce (already 5 past official end time)
15:35:39 <tl> q+
15:36:25 <TallTed> "is rdf:reifies of"
15:36:38 <enrico> ack tl
15:36:40 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:36:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:38:16 <niklasl> It's more of an "expressivity omission"...?
15:39:21 <niklasl> +1 to counter-examples
15:55:13 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:55:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:44:39 <TallTed> Zakim, end meeting
16:44:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been niklasl, TallTed, enrico, tl, gkellogg_, william_vw, pchampin, Souri, AndyS
16:44:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:44:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
16:44:48 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:44:48 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
16:44:48 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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