IRC log of rdf-star on 2024-08-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:46:19 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
- 13:46:23 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-irc
- 13:46:23 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #rdf-star
- 13:46:53 [TallTed]
- meeting: RDF-star Semantics TF
- 13:46:55 [TallTed]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 13:46:56 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 13:46:58 [TallTed]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 13:46:59 [TallTed]
- agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20240830T100000/
- 13:46:59 [agendabot]
- clear agenda
- 13:46:59 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Discussion on having a more liberal use of reification properties as in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22alternative-baseline%22, as opposed to have the strict well formed fragment with just rdf:reifies.
- 13:46:59 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Discussion on whether or not to limit the (abstract) syntax to have triple terms only in object position.
- 13:47:11 [TallTed]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 13:47:12 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 13:47:51 [TallTed]
- previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-rdf-star-minutes.html
- 13:47:53 [TallTed]
- next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/05-rdf-star-minutes.html
- 13:57:06 [AndyS]
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- 13:59:31 [niklasl]
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- 14:01:41 [enrico]
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- 14:01:54 [niklasl]
- present+
- 14:01:57 [TallTed]
- present+
- 14:02:35 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 14:02:37 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 14:02:44 [tl]
- tl has joined #rdf-star
- 14:02:44 [enrico]
- present+
- 14:03:19 [william_vw]
- william_vw has joined #rdf-star
- 14:03:28 [tl]
- present+
- 14:03:31 [gkellogg_]
- present+
- 14:03:35 [william_vw]
- present+
- 14:04:53 [Souri7]
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- 14:04:59 [pchampin]
- present+
- 14:05:27 [Souri7]
- present+
- 14:07:31 [william_vw]
- q+
- 14:08:03 [enrico]
- ack william_vw
- 14:09:59 [pchampin]
- q+
- 14:11:05 [william_vw]
- william_vw has joined #rdf-star
- 14:11:38 [enrico]
- ack pchampin
- 14:12:17 [niklasl]
- owl:sameAs a rdf:Property # so it may be in the intersection of ReificationProperty and "regular" properties...?
- 14:12:46 [tl]
- q+
- 14:13:10 [william_vw]
- q+
- 14:13:22 [niklasl]
- +1 for the Literal:ish view of triple terms
- 14:13:23 [enrico]
- ack tl
- 14:14:55 [enrico]
- q+
- 14:15:05 [enrico]
- ack william_vw
- 14:15:05 [gkellogg_]
- ack william_vw
- 14:15:07 [niklasl]
- q+
- 14:16:55 [niklasl]
- owl:sameAs is used with blank nodes a lot (OTOH it's also very misused)
- 14:18:56 [enrico]
- ack niklasl
- 14:19:46 [pfps]
- pfps has joined #rdf-star
- 14:20:15 [AndyS]
- owl:sameAs rdfs:domain owl:Thing .
- 14:20:15 [AndyS]
- owl:sameAs rdfs:range owl:Thing .
- 14:21:35 [tl]
- q+
- 14:21:39 [enrico]
- ack enrico
- 14:22:45 [enrico]
- ack tl
- 14:22:59 [Souri7]
- q+
- 14:23:00 [gkellogg_]
- q+
- 14:23:24 [enrico]
- ack souri
- 14:23:50 [niklasl]
- I could live with the stricter syntactic restriction (noting that I am also for only allowing rdf:reifies at this point / for RDF 1.2).
- 14:24:20 [niklasl]
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- 14:24:34 [pchampin]
- q+ to discuss the notion of "minimal" as argued by Souri
- 14:28:06 [enrico]
- ack gkellogg_
- 14:29:22 [Souri7]
- q+
- 14:30:35 [enrico]
- ack pchampin
- 14:30:35 [Zakim]
- pchampin, you wanted to discuss the notion of "minimal" as argued by Souri
- 14:32:11 [niklasl]
- q+
- 14:32:56 [enrico]
- ack Souri
- 14:33:21 [TallTed]
- q+
- 14:35:07 [enrico]
- q+
- 14:35:45 [AndyS]
- q+
- 14:35:52 [enrico]
- ack niklasl
- 14:39:06 [enrico]
- acl tallted
- 14:39:14 [enrico]
- ack tallted
- 14:39:55 [william_vw]
- q+
- 14:40:05 [Souri7]
- q+
- 14:40:26 [niklasl]
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- 14:43:25 [AndyS]
- ack enrico
- 14:45:21 [enrico]
- ack andys
- 14:47:11 [TallTed]
- +1 SHACL. I meant to mention it.
- 14:48:21 [enrico]
- q?
- 14:48:33 [enrico]
- ack william_vw
- 14:51:02 [william_vw]
- pchampin sorry :_)
- 14:52:39 [pchampin]
- q?
- 14:52:41 [pchampin]
- q+
- 14:55:10 [enrico]
- ack souri
- 14:56:01 [AndyS]
- I very much hope that our non-REC guide to using RDF 1.2 reification covers good and bad patterns.
- 14:56:02 [TallTed]
- "warn when loading data that is inconsistent with previously loaded data" vs "warn when loading data that is internally inconsistent" vs "prevent loading data that is internally inconsistent" vs "let me load anything" (among other options)
- 14:56:32 [enrico]
- q+
- 14:56:35 [TallTed]
- such optional switches are (or should be) always viable. forcing any of these via spec seems not so viable.
- 14:56:43 [enrico]
- ack pchampin
- 14:57:23 [niklasl]
- +1 to AndyS on good/bad patterns (adding to my draft notes)
- 14:58:03 [tl]
- q+
- 14:58:29 [william_vw]
- +1 to pchampin on having additional layers cope with this
- 14:59:01 [Souri]
- Souri has joined #rdf-star
- 14:59:05 [Souri]
- present+
- 14:59:10 [AndyS]
- present+
- 14:59:34 [Souri]
- q+
- 14:59:43 [pchampin]
- I think that Souri's use-case is about one-to-many, not one-to-one
- 15:03:09 [enrico]
- ack enrico
- 15:04:17 [pchampin]
- I don't see any reason to forbid/prevent subproperties of rdf:reifies (in RDFS, that is)
- 15:05:43 [enrico]
- ack tl
- 15:06:52 [enrico]
- ack souri
- 15:07:19 [AndyS]
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- 15:07:35 [pchampin]
- q+
- 15:07:36 [Souri]
- q+
- 15:08:05 [niklasl]
- ... apart from semantics...
- 15:09:02 [Souri2]
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- 15:09:04 [Souri2]
- present+
- 15:09:21 [enrico]
- ack pchampin
- 15:10:23 [niklasl]
- q+
- 15:10:29 [enrico]
- ack souri
- 15:11:37 [enrico]
- ack niklasl
- 15:14:43 [Souri2]
- q+
- 15:14:48 [enrico]
- ack souri
- 15:15:20 [enrico]
- q+
- 15:15:23 [niklasl]
- q+
- 15:16:22 [gkellogg_]
- We have a syntax for arbitrary predicates used with Triple Terms in Turtle: `:r :p1 <<(...)>>>`
- 15:16:29 [pchampin]
- gkellogg_ +1
- 15:16:38 [niklasl]
- +1 to gkellogg_
- 15:17:16 [Souri2]
- I was thinking about a shortcut akin to :r | :s :p:o .
- 15:17:24 [niklasl]
- My point was a lot about the shorthands catering for the (so far) "understood/non-experimental" case.
- 15:17:28 [Souri2]
- s/:p:o/:p :o/
- 15:18:15 [gkellogg_]
- Short cuts are to aide common usage patterns; trying to invent a short cut style that extends to arbitrary predicates would seem outside our scope.
- 15:18:40 [pchampin]
- q+
- 15:18:42 [Souri2]
- :r [:p1] | :s :p :o .
- 15:19:07 [Souri2]
- or something along that line
- 15:19:11 [tl]
- gkellogg_ but that's what the annotation syntax does
- 15:19:11 [enrico]
- ack enrico
- 15:19:23 [gkellogg_]
- (Best start adopting to the actual syntax: `:s :p :o ~ :r`)
- 15:20:33 [gkellogg_]
- `:s :p :o ~ :r` could result in a different predicate than `<<:s :p :o ~ :r>>`
- 15:20:42 [Souri2]
- :s :p :o ~ :r | :p1 . ?
- 15:21:14 [enrico]
- May I say that I really really dislike the "~" syntax?
- 15:21:36 [enrico]
- ack niklasl
- 15:21:41 [enrico]
- ack pchampin
- 15:24:35 [william_vw]
- under datatype entailment: "RDF processors MAY treat an unsatisfiable graph as signaling an error condition, but this is not required."
- 15:24:37 [william_vw]
- https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-mt/#datatype-entailment
- 15:24:53 [enrico]
- q?
- 15:24:54 [Souri2]
- +1 to PA
- 15:25:40 [niklasl]
- q+
- 15:25:49 [enrico]
- niklasl
- 15:25:55 [enrico]
- ack niklasl
- 15:27:08 [niklasl]
- niklasl has joined #rdf-star
- 15:27:18 [tl]
- q+
- 15:28:25 [enrico]
- ack tl
- 15:29:01 [gkellogg_]
- `<<(...)>> a rdf:TripleTerm`
- 15:29:33 [niklasl]
- That can be entailed, but I see no need to write it.
- 15:29:52 [niklasl]
- true a xsd:boolean .
- 15:30:24 [Souri2]
- disallowing triple-term in position other than the object position (as a syntactic restriction in RDF) => none of the properties in the rdf:ReificationProperty class can have an inverse property
- 15:30:56 [niklasl]
- ex:nameOf owl:inverseOf foaf:name .
- 15:31:07 [TallTed]
- there is no requirement that every property must be invertable
- 15:31:28 [Souri2]
- +1 to PA's point: "20"^^xsd:decimal :ageOf :john . is not allowed in RDF
- 15:31:40 [gkellogg_]
- `rdf:TripleTerm is rdf:type of <<(...)>>>`
- 15:33:28 [pchampin]
- q?
- 15:33:35 [niklasl]
- q+
- 15:33:46 [enrico]
- ack niklasl
- 15:35:32 [TallTed]
- sadly, I have to bounce (already 5 past official end time)
- 15:35:39 [tl]
- q+
- 15:36:25 [TallTed]
- "is rdf:reifies of"
- 15:36:38 [enrico]
- ack tl
- 15:36:40 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 15:36:41 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 15:38:16 [niklasl]
- It's more of an "expressivity omission"...?
- 15:39:21 [niklasl]
- +1 to counter-examples
- 15:55:13 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 15:55:14 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 16:44:39 [TallTed]
- Zakim, end meeting
- 16:44:39 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been niklasl, TallTed, enrico, tl, gkellogg_, william_vw, pchampin, Souri, AndyS
- 16:44:41 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 16:44:43 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/30-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
- 16:44:48 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 16:44:48 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:44:48 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items
- 16:44:49 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #rdf-star