15:00:20 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:00:25 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-tt-irc 15:00:26 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:00:27 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:00:35 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/289 15:00:56 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/08/15-tt-minutes.html 15:02:56 scribe+ nigel_ 15:05:27 Regrets: Gary 15:05:48 Present: Nigel, Pierre, Matt, Cyril 15:06:15 scribe+ nigel 15:06:19 rrsagent, make minutes 15:06:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:06:29 cpn has joined #tt 15:06:38 present+ Chris_Needham 15:06:48 Topic: This meeting 15:07:25 scribe+ cpn 15:07:44 Nigel: DAPT, IMSC, and TPAC. Anything else? 15:08:00 (nothing) 15:08:23 Topic: DAPT 15:09:01 Subtopic: Add section about mapping from TTML to the DAPT data model w3c/dapt#216 15:09:06 github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/216 15:09:32 Nigel: Is there anything left? 15:10:06 Cyril: The PR as a whole makes sense, it's good and consistent. We're making it more complicated by allowing flexibility on use of nested divs 15:10:14 .... for a potential future use case 15:10:44 ... Pierre suggested making breaking changes for new requirements 15:10:58 ... I suggest reflecting on that during the PR phase, and based on feedback 15:11:15 ... I'd like the ability to roll back the nested divs if too complicated in implementation 15:11:25 Nigel: I don't mind marking it as at risk 15:11:58 Cyril: Could mark nested divs as being prohibited 15:12:56 Nigel: We could, my only hesitation is that removing it would mean also removing other things, so it would have a bigger editorial impact 15:13:10 ... But that's find, and good to get the implementer feedback, and mark it is at risk 15:13:32 ... and see how things go 15:13:58 Nigel: I'd prefer to add the at-risk feature separately 15:14:13 s/separately/in a new issue/ 15:14:40 ... I just created issue #237 for that 15:15:09 ... Any other comments on this PR before merging? 15:15:38 Cyril: Thank you for the work on it 15:16:42 SUMMARY: Pull request merged 15:16:47 Subtopic: Issues review 15:17:14 Cyril: We have a few issues that are duplicates, and some at risk, audio resources related 15:17:34 ... For example, #113 15:18:29 Nigel: There are question issues, referenced in the spec, then adding at-risk status issues. Those are marked as PR must-have. We'd decide on those at PR time 15:21:12 Cyril: [Reviews CR must-have issues] 15:21:33 Nigel: I'd like us to attempt to raise PRs for those CR must-have issues, so ready to resolve at TPAC 15:23:33 Cyril: Script events, represents attribute or xml id 15:23:57 Nigel: I'm thinking about document verbosity and inheritance of these properties 15:24:36 ... There's a combinatorial thing, if represents replaces the script event type. What if they don't agree with each other 15:24:52 ... Painful if you have to inspect the entire document 15:25:18 ... Should it be reasonable to omit event type or represents? Then you'd need some other way 15:26:06 Cyril: What if any div that's a leaf is a script event? And then you inherit the script type or represents, and change it locally if needed 15:26:14 Nigel: So a leaf doesn't contain any div elements? 15:26:16 Cyril: Yes 15:26:59 Nigel: Another thing about xml id, in operational scenarios, trying to identify to someone where a document change is needed, the xml id makes it unambiguous 15:27:14 ... So guiding people to use xml id encourages good practice 15:27:26 Cyril: You may also want to identify groups by xml ids 15:28:16 Nigel: Yes. The other way is to be explicit, e.g., dt, script event or script event group. But then you require it on every div... 15:28:46 Cyril: I'd change the PR to remove the part that requires mandatory properties of a script event. So only leaf divs are script events 15:29:20 ... At the same time remote the script event type property and use represents, and explicitly override if you don't want the inherited value 15:30:34 Cyril: The same inheritance rules as xml:lang 15:30:58 Nigel: ttm:role has a different inheritance model 15:31:16 Cyril: We can work on a concrete proposal for the spec text 15:31:31 Nigel: Need to think about making it mandatory 15:32:12 ... Good discussion. We have a target to request CR transition at TPAC 15:33:15 ... Any other DAPT topics? 15:33:21 no other topics 15:33:26 Topic: IMSC 15:33:44 Subtopic: Superscript/subscript support w3c/imsc#583 15:33:52 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/583 15:34:21 Pierre: This was brought to my attention by a platform that has a presence in France 15:34:54 ... There's no way to signal superscript or subscript text. It's an issue in French more than in English for ordinal numbers, where it's better to use superscript 15:35:17 ... It's in their style guide as something that should be supported 15:35:49 ... I looked into it, and there is a TTML2 font-variant attribute that allows super/subscript glyphs to be selected for a particular font 15:36:01 ... The spec says it's derived from the equivalent CSS feature 15:36:12 ... It's not a layout feature, it's a glyph-selection feature 15:36:25 ... I tried it in CSS, but couldn't find a font that supports it 15:36:34 ... So I tried to find where the TTML2 feature came from 15:37:04 ... An issue raised 10 years ago, based super/subscript support in CEA 708 15:37:32 ... I'm not convinced tts:font-variant is the answer, but I'd like input, so we do it right 15:37:55 ... Unicode does have super/subscript characters, but not enough coverage for all ordinals, or not meant to be used that way 15:38:35 Nigel: I researched how you'd do this in HTML and CSS. There seem to be two ways: 15:39:08 ... The and elements, but there's also a CSS vertical-align feature where you can set the baseline of an element 15:39:44 ... Parents have a subscript baseline and a superscript baseline and on inline elements you can set to one or other of those 15:40:03 ... So there are two ways, I don't know if one is better than the other 15:40:11 Pierre: The HTML elements are widely used 15:40:23 Nigel: Every browser supports vertical-align too 15:41:00 ... You can understand tts:vertical-align being a TTML style attribute, whereas introducing new elements isn't very TTML-ish 15:41:45 Pierre: One option, if we decide tts:font-variant isn't great because of it's mapping to CSS font-variant, we could redefine the mapping to something else 15:42:12 ... tts:font-variant was introduced to support superscript and subscript 15:42:54 Nigel: The CSS font-variant selects glyphs but doesn't change their position, but if you want to change the alignment then you should use vertical-align 15:43:32 ... Sounds not ideal to have a TTML style property that does something different to the CSS style of the same name 15:43:53 Pierre: I agree, but not sure why we went with that at the time 15:44:25 Nigel: A possibility could be to use a font variant 15:45:06 s/font variant/font explicitly defined to include glyphs with super/sub font variant forms 15:45:24 Pierre: Potential next steps: confirm it's a real issue, think about how to fix 15:45:54 Nigel: Yes, and by "real issue" do you mean that there's no workaround 15:46:21 Pierre: Yes, but also if there are subtitle guidelines to discourage use of super/subscript 15:46:38 ... The fact it's in CEA708 gives us a good reason to support it 15:46:56 Nigel: Do you have any input on the accessibility of super/subscript text? 15:47:38 Pierre: Yes, the people in France where wondering why they couldn't do it, probably following a guideline for PNG based subtitles 15:48:16 ... My sense is they're incentivised to help. Maybe give some time, to after IBC, then think about how to fix? 15:48:41 Nigel: Could be a topic for TPAC as well, need to think about things that affect TTML and IMSC together 15:48:49 Nigel: Any other thoughts on this? 15:49:08 Cyril: I'm enquiring internally on the importance, so will update you 15:49:19 Nigel: I don't expect BBC to have any data points 15:50:06 ... I could ask the EBU media access technology group. If you're a member, you could ask on their reflector 15:50:31 ... It's a good forum for input on non-English European languages 15:50:55 Pierre: I can ask there, possibly also on social media 15:51:06 Nigel: Thanks 15:51:12 SUMMARY: Investigation into requirements to continue, agenda+ for TPAC 15:51:19 Topic: TPAC 2024 15:51:43 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2024 TTWG TPAC wiki page 15:51:57 Nigel: I created a wiki page for the TPAC agenda and logistics 15:52:14 ... Please add yourself to the table if you'll be participating 15:52:26 ... Goals for this year's TPAC: 15:52:36 ... Move forward with DAPT, agree to publish CR 15:53:24 ... Decide what to do with TTML2. It seems to be static, nobody actively editing. I want to be able to push it on. It could need another editor, to get it to Rec 15:53:36 ... Joint meetings with MEIG and APA WG, seems vague 15:53:45 ... Future topics 15:54:01 ... I have a list of topics, but not mapped to specific timeslots 15:54:56 ... Will we really have a MEIG/TTWG joint meeting, then on Friday another one: APA/TTWG/MEIG 15:55:28 ... Talking with Chris, that seems to be the intent 15:55:39 cpn: They're different things. The Friday one was at the request of APA. 15:55:53 .. The Monday one was to bring TT and MEIG together as we've done before. 15:56:04 .. It's up to you what you would like the agenda for that session to be. 15:56:30 .. If you don't need all of the time then more time for MEIG specific topics would be helpful. 15:56:34 .. Depends on what you'd like to cover. 15:56:48 .. The Friday session: I haven't had a response from APA about what they'd like to talk about. 15:56:50 .. It's their request. 15:57:12 .. There may be some MediaWG things I could bring, like specs that will need horizontal review, that 15:57:27 .. we could introduce. At this stage I'm unclear as to what we want to use that time for. 15:58:08 Nigel: On the Monday meeting, we'd like to share current TTWG status, show the design and intent for DAPT, to circulate that more widely 15:58:16 ... There are likely to be more MEIG people on the Monday than the Friday 15:58:31 ... We also talked about raising captions in MSE 15:59:14 ... If talked with BBC colleagues, and they see a potential advantage in code simplicity and buffer management, even if the rendering is dealt with separately 15:59:44 ... That's enough to justify the meeting on its own 16:00:07 ... I'll write it into the agenda 16:00:37 Cyril: So if someone is only interested in TTWG, meetings are on Monday, Thursday, Friday? 16:01:05 Nigel: I'm considering being remote on Monday, then travelling for Friday. I could come on the Thursday if we need an editing session 16:01:15 s/Nigel:/Cyril:/ 16:01:21 Nigel: I think that would be helpful 16:01:48 ... There's a joint meeting with Audio Description CG on Thursday morning 16:02:22 Nigel: I don't know what input we'll get from the AD CG, so could be an editing session 16:19:21 rrsagent, make minutes 16:19:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:20:02 s/But that's find/But that's fine 16:20:59 s/xml id/xml:id/g 16:21:39 s/dt, script event/a dt attribute, with different values for script event 16:21:59 s/remote the script event/remove the script event 16:22:29 s/has a different inheritance model/has a different inheritance model so we do need to be clear about the inheritance model 16:23:54 s/no workaround/no workaround? 16:24:14 s/France where wondering/France were wondering 16:25:41 s/If talked with BBC/I have talked with BBC 16:26:03 Topic: Meeting close 16:26:16 Nigel: Thanks all, we're a couple of minutes over. [adjourns meeting] 16:26:20 rrsagent, make minutes 16:26:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:27:12 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:27:24 Chair: Nigel 16:27:35 zakim, end meeting 16:27:35 As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Pierre, Matt, Cyril, Chris_Needham 16:27:37 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:27:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:27:45 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:27:45 Zakim has left #tt 16:27:58 rrsagent, excuse us 16:27:58 I see no action items