16:48:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:48:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-aria-irc
16:48:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:48:18 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:48:21 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
16:48:29 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:48:29 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:48:29 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240829T130000/
16:48:29 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:48:29 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3MlVwBq
16:48:30 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4dXhy9q
16:48:32 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
16:48:35 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300
16:48:38 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Remove group as allowed child of tree https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2094
16:48:41 <agendabot> agenda+ -> TPAC https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/TPAC-2024-ARIA-Meetings#topics-to-schedule
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16:59:45 <spectranaut_> agenda?
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17:01:37 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:01:46 <spectranaut_> present+
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17:02:50 <sarah> present+
17:03:01 <aardrian> scribe+
17:03:14 <smockle> present+
17:03:17 <aardrian> zakim next item
17:03:31 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:03:31 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3MlVwBq -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:03:43 <pkra> jcraig can you try the calendar?
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17:04:28 <Rahim> present+
17:04:36 <Matt_King> present+
17:05:26 <aardrian> jamesn: Issue 2324, missing table attributes
17:05:38 <aardrian> james: I feel there is a grid project, let's put it in there.
17:05:40 <aardrian> Q+
17:06:06 <aardrian> jamesn: I don't want to start a table / grid conversation without collecting them all in one place.
17:06:26 <aardrian> jamesn: I also want to work out what is well supported in native HTML as well.
17:06:42 <aardrian> jamesn: Not sure if we want to just replicate without testing existing support.
17:06:44 <jamesn> ack aardrian
17:07:05 <aardrian> aardrian: There are open table issues, is there a tag?
17:07:25 <aardrian> jamesn: There is a project for it already.
17:08:03 <aardrian> aardrian: Perhaps tag them for easier grouping for non-project users.
17:08:21 <aardrian> jamesn: 2322, it seems ARIA actions might cover this.
17:08:48 <aardrian> bryang: I'm not sure it would since the ARIA actions makes no reference to any exceptions.
17:09:04 <aardrian> sarah: I didn't follow that case that wouldn't be covered.
17:09:42 <aardrian> bryang: There were examples, they reference supporting action buttons that are sibling to the role tab. They are referenced by ARIA actions on the buttons.
17:09:58 <aardrian> sarah: So is the issue that the ARIA actions is on the tab and not the tablist?
17:10:05 <aardrian> bryang: No, that there is no exception.
17:10:19 <aardrian> sarah: It creates an explicit exception for elements referenced by ARIA actions.
17:10:38 <aardrian> matt_King: There is a child reference?
17:10:55 <aardrian> jamesn: If there is no explicit exception, we should add it.
17:11:16 <aardrian> bryang: Do you see any reason why buttons in tablists should stop working?
17:11:37 <aardrian> jamesn: I'm not sure we can guarantee anything the breaks ARIA standards can be supported.
17:11:54 <aardrian> bryang: There are things supported by AT for 8 years.
17:12:10 <aardrian> matt_king: Are you asking if coding to the future spec is a problem?
17:12:15 <aardrian> bryang: Yes.
17:12:33 <aardrian> matt_King: As we discussed on Tuesday, I don't see any issue but there is no support today.
17:12:42 <aardrian> jamesn: So are we closing this issue?
17:12:57 <aardrian> bryang: Ask browsers to stop supporting buttons in tablists?
17:13:13 <aardrian> jamesn: I don't think we can put that in an ARIA issue. You can reach out to AT vendors if you want.
17:13:34 <aardrian> matt_King: This is one of the topics I proposed for TPAC -- working out AT support for ARIA actions.
17:13:50 <aardrian> jamesn: 2320, aria-label on<time>.
17:14:54 <aardrian> aardrian: This request seems out of scope for ARIA and should be kicked back to HTML.
17:15:12 <aardrian> jamesn: I might agree with you, but Scott had some notes.
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17:15:30 <aardrian> matt_King: If it's a generic role and we don't allow aria-label, then we wouldn't allow it.
17:15:34 <melsumner> present+
17:15:43 <aardrian> scott: Remember we made the time role for reasons.
17:15:51 <aardrian> jamesn: For parity?
17:16:06 <aardrian> matt_King: I thought we said it was generic?
17:16:22 <aardrian> jamesn: Yes.
17:16:47 <aardrian> scott: I can see where the issue is coming from, but it's making sweeping assumptions about how SR users understand abbreviations.
17:17:09 <aardrian> jamesn: If "1h" isn't clear for everybody, then they should use different text versus SR-only text.
17:17:46 <aardrian> scott: I don't disagree with the proposal because I can understand the position, but HTML already allows this with a title attribute, to Adrian's point.
17:18:00 <aardrian> jamesn: I would love an SR user to write a response and close the issue, if you agree.
17:18:42 <aardrian> matt_king: I do. The notion of giving SR users a different experience is beyond the scope of what you should do as an author. I can leave a comment.
17:19:05 <aardrian> jamesn: 2318, automate PR labeling.
17:19:26 <aardrian> dmontalvo: That's an internal issue.
17:19:29 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:19:29 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4dXhy9q -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:00 <aardrian> jamesn: I don't believe we need to talk about any of these 3 PRs. They all appear to be editorial.
17:20:15 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:20:15 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, aardrian
17:20:24 <aardrian> zakim, close this item
17:20:24 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:20:25 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:20:25 <Zakim> 3. -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y [from agendabot]
17:20:27 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:20:27 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:21:12 <aardrian> jcraig: The only one I have a question on is... no question because I responded to all of these.
17:21:16 <aardrian> zakim, close this item
17:21:16 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:21:17 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:21:17 <Zakim> 4. -> Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300 [from agendabot]
17:21:21 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:21:21 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:21:45 <aardrian> jamesn: Picking up again from last week with new comments.
17:22:03 <aardrian> jamesn: Bryan had examples, Aaron proposed an algorithm.
17:22:20 <aardrian> jamesn: Want to talk through it or should we just read it?
17:22:46 <aardrian> jamesn: I'll paste it here.
17:23:11 <aardrian> jamesn: Why did you choose "up to 3 ancestors up"?
17:23:19 <spectranaut_> q+
17:23:25 <jamesn> Starting from menuitem:
17:23:25 <jamesn> * Navigate to ancestor menu (up to 3 ancestors up). If none found, return the empty string.
17:23:29 <aardrian> aleventhal: Because too many would be a bummer for performance.
17:23:53 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Can we do the first non-generic ancestor?
17:24:01 <sarah> q+
17:24:10 <aardrian> aleventhal: The first menu parent is non-generic.
17:24:17 <melsumner> if we specify non-generic ancestor then we don't have to say how far up specifically to go, yes? This would resolve the wrapping div problem.
17:24:30 <aardrian> aleventhal: Going up three levels is supposed to account for generics.
17:24:41 <aardrian> jamesn: If you have a page of generics that might not help it.
17:24:52 <aardrian> aleventhal: Do you expect to have that many generics wrapping it?
17:25:19 <spectranaut_> ack spectranaut_
17:25:32 <aardrian> jcraig: Yes. The perf cost is infinite downward. I agree with Valerie that the first menu parent.
17:25:39 <aardrian> alevental: Get rid of the three.
17:26:13 <aardrian> sarah: I have a question about using index items since you have to find the closest parent menu anyway. Is this fundamentally different or can it be used?
17:26:37 <aardrian> aleventhal: The indexing would use first parent in the tree and use that for indexing child items. It is potentially -- we ignore generics and groups.
17:26:50 <aardrian> sarah: I thought indexing was different with groups for different AT.
17:27:03 <aardrian> aleventhal: We can't reuse the same code since it's in a different process.
17:27:12 <jamesn> * If another element controls this menu, navigate to that. If a menuitem, skip to step 4, else return the empty string.
17:27:45 <aardrian> aleventhal: If the element that controls is also a menu item, then step 4. I could explain that better.
17:27:54 <aardrian> bryang: Could that be a button?
17:28:01 <sarah> q+
17:28:02 <aardrian> matt_king: What happens in that case?
17:28:29 <aardrian> aleventhal: Sounds reasonable;  I think we no ARIA menu button in MSAA...
17:29:11 <aardrian> sarah: How we usually build menus, the pop-up is rendered at the end of the DOM with its own z-index and positioning. For every submenu. I don't think we're unique.
17:29:24 <aardrian> sarah: I think we wrangling for more than is useful when looking at the DOM.
17:29:44 <sarah> ack me
17:29:54 <aardrian> matt_King: We had at one time recommend aria-controls, but people said there was no use so we removed it.
17:30:19 <aardrian> matt_king: I could not find the issue for why we removed it. Do we want to revisit? Did you find the use case, Aaron?
17:30:43 <aardrian> aleventhal: No. To answer Sarah, the aria-controls can give it an accName.
17:31:04 <aardrian> aleventhal: We can have a fallback in the worst case scenario.
17:31:31 <aardrian> matt_king: Should we bring aria-controls back into the menu pattern so it provides a name to the menu?
17:31:43 <aardrian> matt_king: We might use aria-labelledby on the menu pointing to the...
17:32:16 <aardrian> aleventhal: Yeah, if #2 says another element controls this then there is a relation. So we need a half step where we use the name on the menu, if none, then the name of the thing controlling the menu.
17:33:07 <aardrian> alventhal: That second step means it doesn't matter if its a menu item because we can use its name.
17:33:21 <aardrian> sarah: Are we taking out DOM walking, previous sibling as a fallback?
17:33:31 <aardrian> jamesn: Can we? Isn't it part of the algo?
17:34:07 <aardrian> sarah: The obscure DOM non-relationship scares me. We don't usually name fly-outs, but now trying to debug how it got its name from a random element seems tricky.
17:34:23 <aardrian> jamesn: This is fallback naming. Ideally authors would name them, so this is when authors fail to do so.
17:35:06 <aardrian> matt_king: The concern Sarah has is the fallback could make a worse name than just "menu" as Aaron suggests.
17:35:15 <aardrian> matt_king: So this can be a worse outcome.
17:35:53 <aardrian> sarah: Yes. A lot of things don't have names, such as file menus. We don't use aria-controls now, so the fallback would come into play and we would get some weird names based on the DOM structure.
17:36:52 <aardrian> matt_king: When using touch, it seems like it could be a problem if a touch view presents an odd reading order.
17:37:11 <aardrian> sarah: We use differen things for leveled flyouts.
17:37:25 <aardrian> bryang: There's no association in iOS.
17:37:47 <aardrian> sarah: It does, but you should test it. Shout out to James Craig.
17:38:06 <aardrian> matt_king: If aria-owns is used, how would that affect the DOM?
17:38:31 <aardrian> aleventhal: This is talking about siblings or parents and looking at aria-owns because it restructures the tree.
17:38:46 <aardrian> matt_king: Does that bring the structure back into use, Sarah?
17:39:20 <aardrian> sarah: I think it's brittle. It's common to not have hierarchical structures, to not name menus, to now use aria-owns.
17:39:33 <aardrian> jamesn: Can you come up with examples in the wild?
17:39:36 <aardrian> sarah: Sure.
17:39:58 <aardrian> aleventhal: We're trying to close some gaps, so any feedback is good.
17:40:12 <aardrian> aleventhal: Thinking about a Share menu and if that will make redundant announcements.
17:40:39 <jamesn> agenda?
17:40:44 <aardrian> matt_king: Working on that with ARIA-AT. When moving from one menu item to another it would say nothing about the container unless you request information about a specific item.
17:41:04 <aardrian> matt_king: Neither TalkBack or VO/iOS have a way to explore that info, but on desktop you can get that info.
17:41:11 <aardrian> aleventhal: WHat about when it opens?
17:41:17 <aardrian> matt_king: Yes.
17:41:33 <aardrian> aleventhal: When I down arrow I'll get it.
17:41:46 <aardrian> matt_king: If down arrow opens it, then you already heard it.
17:42:08 <aardrian> aleventhal: I just arrow right and it opens a menu.
17:42:23 <aardrian> matt_king: arrowing shouldn't just open a menu so it should have no effect.
17:42:29 <aardrian> bryang: You would need a live region.
17:43:05 <aardrian> matt_king: It's about when you put focus into it. Normally I didn't think submenus would expand automatically on focus. On desktop I might hear "Share, menu collapsed."
17:43:26 <pkra> I have to leave early today. Bye everyone.
17:43:36 <aardrian> jamesn: We have more agenda items. Go read the proposal, comment there. Note Sarah's comments where things might get worse.
17:43:51 <aardrian> Sarah: So far all those would be wrong, so I'll add comments.
17:43:55 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:43:55 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Remove group as allowed child of tree https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2094 -- taken up [from agendabot]
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17:44:12 <aardrian> zakim, take up item 6
17:44:12 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> TPAC https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/TPAC-2024-ARIA-Meetings#topics-to-schedule -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:44:28 <aardrian> jamesn: This is our topics we have been asked to put on the agenda for TPAC.
17:44:49 <aardrian> jamesn: We have a number of issues.
17:45:04 <jamesn> ARIA (now) yearly process review+feedback
17:45:24 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
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17:45:59 <jamesn> 2025 prioritization
17:46:18 <jamesn> Relationship between ARIA and AT
17:46:26 <aardrian> jamesn: And how to improve that.
17:46:30 <jamesn> Prohibited name repair (prototype available in Chromium)
17:46:58 <aardrian> spectranaut_: There are questions about agenda setters. Now's a good time for someone to set it.
17:47:08 <aardrian> spectranaut_: We might not schedule it if no agenda.
17:47:25 <aardrian> jamesn: Aaron can you take the prohibited name one?
17:47:28 <jamesn> New HTML features - updates
17:48:50 <aardrian> Conversation about attendance happens.
17:49:09 <aardrian> jamesn: Aaron and Scott for that one.
17:49:20 <jamesn> New CSS features - updates
17:49:27 <aardrian> jamesn: Also for Aaron.
17:50:27 <aardrian> matt_kind: I thought interactive lists and list view were the same thing.
17:51:09 <spectranaut_> scribe+
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17:51:13 <aardrian> spectranaut_: You and Sarah submitted them.
17:51:27 <spectranaut_> conclusion: same topic, sarah and matt will work offline
17:51:31 <aardrian> jamesn: Matt and Sarah will work on that.
17:51:45 <aardrian> jamesn: Doug will not be at TPAC for ARIA notify.
17:52:44 <aardrian> Smockle: ALlison and Keith will be there.
17:53:02 <aardrian> alison: Happy to help.
17:53:49 <aardrian> jamesn: Can you run this Adrian?
17:54:01 <aardrian> aardrian: Yup, will ask for help setting it.
17:54:12 <jamesn> User agent and authoring requirements for aria-actions
17:54:15 <aardrian> jamesn: Three of Matt's at the end. You good to run that?
17:54:20 <aardrian> matt_king: Yup.
17:54:27 <jamesn> Update on ARIA-AT
17:54:29 <aardrian> matt_king: Hopefully with APG examples.
17:55:00 <jamesn> AT expectations for aria-actions
17:55:07 <aardrian> jamesn: we can maybe align that with authoring requirements.
17:55:25 <aardrian> jamesn: So we need to keep them in the order listed.
17:55:52 <aardrian> jamesn: If the order for your session matters, say so.
17:56:06 <aardrian> jamesn: We have room in the agenda and meetings with other WGs.
17:56:28 <aardrian> jamesn: The immersive web one is unclear to me. Who called for it and what are we talking about?
17:56:36 <aardrian> spectranaut_: We should check in.
17:56:55 <aardrian> dmontalvo: I didn't request anything with them.
17:57:11 <aardrian> dmontalvo: I'll see if I can find out, but they may be placeholders.
17:57:48 <aardrian> jamesn: So we have room on the schedule, but propose sooner rather than later.
17:58:01 <aardrian> jamesn: I imagine we can fill two days with this. Aaron could fill both.
17:58:02 <Rahim> q+
17:58:17 <aardrian> matt_king: Good not to overload TPAC.
17:58:46 <aardrian> rahim: I'd like to propose an ARIA IDL topic. I've been researching and would like to discuss stuff with the group.
17:59:02 <aardrian> jamesn: Make an issue and tag it with f2fcandidate, we can agenda it.
17:59:32 <aardrian> jcraig: Rahim has been working hard on this, so I want him to field the questions, not me.
17:59:47 <aardrian> zakim, end meeting
17:59:47 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been giacomo-petri, spectranaut_, pkra, filippo-zorzi, aardrian, sarah, smockle, Rahim, Matt_King, melsumner, Daniel
17:59:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:59:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:59:59 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, aardrian; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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