IRC log of aria on 2024-08-29
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:48:13 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria
- 16:48:17 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-aria-irc
- 16:48:17 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 16:48:18 [Zakim]
- Meeting: ARIA WG
- 16:48:21 [jamesn]
- chair: JamesNurthen
- 16:48:29 [jamesn]
- agendabot, find agenda
- 16:48:29 [agendabot]
- jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
- 16:48:29 [agendabot]
- agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240829T130000/
- 16:48:29 [agendabot]
- clear agenda
- 16:48:29 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3MlVwBq
- 16:48:30 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4dXhy9q
- 16:48:32 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
- 16:48:35 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300
- 16:48:38 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Remove group as allowed child of tree https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2094
- 16:48:41 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> TPAC https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/TPAC-2024-ARIA-Meetings#topics-to-schedule
- 16:59:32 [spectranaut_]
- spectranaut_ has joined #aria
- 16:59:45 [spectranaut_]
- agenda?
- 17:00:18 [filippo-zorzi]
- filippo-zorzi has joined #aria
- 17:01:15 [aardrian]
- aardrian has joined #aria
- 17:01:34 [giacomo-petri]
- giacomo-petri has joined #aria
- 17:01:37 [giacomo-petri]
- present+
- 17:01:46 [spectranaut_]
- present+
- 17:02:02 [pkra]
- pkra has joined #aria
- 17:02:03 [pkra]
- present+
- 17:02:06 [filippo-zorzi]
- present+
- 17:02:15 [aardrian]
- present+
- 17:02:39 [scott]
- scott has joined #aria
- 17:02:44 [sarah]
- sarah has joined #aria
- 17:02:50 [sarah]
- present+
- 17:03:01 [aardrian]
- scribe+
- 17:03:14 [smockle]
- present+
- 17:03:17 [aardrian]
- zakim next item
- 17:03:31 [aardrian]
- zakim, next item
- 17:03:31 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3MlVwBq -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 17:03:43 [pkra]
- jcraig can you try the calendar?
- 17:04:07 [Matt_King]
- Matt_King has joined #aria
- 17:04:28 [Rahim]
- present+
- 17:04:36 [Matt_King]
- present+
- 17:05:26 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Issue 2324, missing table attributes
- 17:05:38 [aardrian]
- james: I feel there is a grid project, let's put it in there.
- 17:05:40 [aardrian]
- Q+
- 17:06:06 [aardrian]
- jamesn: I don't want to start a table / grid conversation without collecting them all in one place.
- 17:06:26 [aardrian]
- jamesn: I also want to work out what is well supported in native HTML as well.
- 17:06:42 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Not sure if we want to just replicate without testing existing support.
- 17:06:44 [jamesn]
- ack aardrian
- 17:07:05 [aardrian]
- aardrian: There are open table issues, is there a tag?
- 17:07:25 [aardrian]
- jamesn: There is a project for it already.
- 17:08:03 [aardrian]
- aardrian: Perhaps tag them for easier grouping for non-project users.
- 17:08:21 [aardrian]
- jamesn: 2322, it seems ARIA actions might cover this.
- 17:08:48 [aardrian]
- bryang: I'm not sure it would since the ARIA actions makes no reference to any exceptions.
- 17:09:04 [aardrian]
- sarah: I didn't follow that case that wouldn't be covered.
- 17:09:42 [aardrian]
- bryang: There were examples, they reference supporting action buttons that are sibling to the role tab. They are referenced by ARIA actions on the buttons.
- 17:09:58 [aardrian]
- sarah: So is the issue that the ARIA actions is on the tab and not the tablist?
- 17:10:05 [aardrian]
- bryang: No, that there is no exception.
- 17:10:19 [aardrian]
- sarah: It creates an explicit exception for elements referenced by ARIA actions.
- 17:10:38 [aardrian]
- matt_King: There is a child reference?
- 17:10:55 [aardrian]
- jamesn: If there is no explicit exception, we should add it.
- 17:11:16 [aardrian]
- bryang: Do you see any reason why buttons in tablists should stop working?
- 17:11:37 [aardrian]
- jamesn: I'm not sure we can guarantee anything the breaks ARIA standards can be supported.
- 17:11:54 [aardrian]
- bryang: There are things supported by AT for 8 years.
- 17:12:10 [aardrian]
- matt_king: Are you asking if coding to the future spec is a problem?
- 17:12:15 [aardrian]
- bryang: Yes.
- 17:12:33 [aardrian]
- matt_King: As we discussed on Tuesday, I don't see any issue but there is no support today.
- 17:12:42 [aardrian]
- jamesn: So are we closing this issue?
- 17:12:57 [aardrian]
- bryang: Ask browsers to stop supporting buttons in tablists?
- 17:13:13 [aardrian]
- jamesn: I don't think we can put that in an ARIA issue. You can reach out to AT vendors if you want.
- 17:13:34 [aardrian]
- matt_King: This is one of the topics I proposed for TPAC -- working out AT support for ARIA actions.
- 17:13:50 [aardrian]
- jamesn: 2320, aria-label on<time>.
- 17:14:54 [aardrian]
- aardrian: This request seems out of scope for ARIA and should be kicked back to HTML.
- 17:15:12 [aardrian]
- jamesn: I might agree with you, but Scott had some notes.
- 17:15:24 [melsumner]
- melsumner has joined #aria
- 17:15:30 [aardrian]
- matt_King: If it's a generic role and we don't allow aria-label, then we wouldn't allow it.
- 17:15:34 [melsumner]
- present+
- 17:15:43 [aardrian]
- scott: Remember we made the time role for reasons.
- 17:15:51 [aardrian]
- jamesn: For parity?
- 17:16:06 [aardrian]
- matt_King: I thought we said it was generic?
- 17:16:22 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Yes.
- 17:16:47 [aardrian]
- scott: I can see where the issue is coming from, but it's making sweeping assumptions about how SR users understand abbreviations.
- 17:17:09 [aardrian]
- jamesn: If "1h" isn't clear for everybody, then they should use different text versus SR-only text.
- 17:17:46 [aardrian]
- scott: I don't disagree with the proposal because I can understand the position, but HTML already allows this with a title attribute, to Adrian's point.
- 17:18:00 [aardrian]
- jamesn: I would love an SR user to write a response and close the issue, if you agree.
- 17:18:42 [aardrian]
- matt_king: I do. The notion of giving SR users a different experience is beyond the scope of what you should do as an author. I can leave a comment.
- 17:19:05 [aardrian]
- jamesn: 2318, automate PR labeling.
- 17:19:26 [aardrian]
- dmontalvo: That's an internal issue.
- 17:19:29 [aardrian]
- zakim, next item
- 17:19:29 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4dXhy9q -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 17:20:00 [aardrian]
- jamesn: I don't believe we need to talk about any of these 3 PRs. They all appear to be editorial.
- 17:20:15 [aardrian]
- zakim, next item
- 17:20:15 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 was just opened, aardrian
- 17:20:24 [aardrian]
- zakim, close this item
- 17:20:24 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 closed
- 17:20:25 [Zakim]
- I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 17:20:25 [Zakim]
- 3. -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y [from agendabot]
- 17:20:27 [aardrian]
- zakim, next item
- 17:20:27 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 17:21:12 [aardrian]
- jcraig: The only one I have a question on is... no question because I responded to all of these.
- 17:21:16 [aardrian]
- zakim, close this item
- 17:21:16 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 closed
- 17:21:17 [Zakim]
- I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 17:21:17 [Zakim]
- 4. -> Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300 [from agendabot]
- 17:21:21 [aardrian]
- zakim, next item
- 17:21:21 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 -- -> Spec for menu/menuitem does not provide enough author guidance for structure https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2300 -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 17:21:45 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Picking up again from last week with new comments.
- 17:22:03 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Bryan had examples, Aaron proposed an algorithm.
- 17:22:20 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Want to talk through it or should we just read it?
- 17:22:46 [aardrian]
- jamesn: I'll paste it here.
- 17:23:11 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Why did you choose "up to 3 ancestors up"?
- 17:23:19 [spectranaut_]
- q+
- 17:23:25 [jamesn]
- Starting from menuitem:
- 17:23:25 [jamesn]
- * Navigate to ancestor menu (up to 3 ancestors up). If none found, return the empty string.
- 17:23:29 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: Because too many would be a bummer for performance.
- 17:23:53 [aardrian]
- spectranaut_: Can we do the first non-generic ancestor?
- 17:24:01 [sarah]
- q+
- 17:24:10 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: The first menu parent is non-generic.
- 17:24:17 [melsumner]
- if we specify non-generic ancestor then we don't have to say how far up specifically to go, yes? This would resolve the wrapping div problem.
- 17:24:30 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: Going up three levels is supposed to account for generics.
- 17:24:41 [aardrian]
- jamesn: If you have a page of generics that might not help it.
- 17:24:52 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: Do you expect to have that many generics wrapping it?
- 17:25:19 [spectranaut_]
- ack spectranaut_
- 17:25:32 [aardrian]
- jcraig: Yes. The perf cost is infinite downward. I agree with Valerie that the first menu parent.
- 17:25:39 [aardrian]
- alevental: Get rid of the three.
- 17:26:13 [aardrian]
- sarah: I have a question about using index items since you have to find the closest parent menu anyway. Is this fundamentally different or can it be used?
- 17:26:37 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: The indexing would use first parent in the tree and use that for indexing child items. It is potentially -- we ignore generics and groups.
- 17:26:50 [aardrian]
- sarah: I thought indexing was different with groups for different AT.
- 17:27:03 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: We can't reuse the same code since it's in a different process.
- 17:27:12 [jamesn]
- * If another element controls this menu, navigate to that. If a menuitem, skip to step 4, else return the empty string.
- 17:27:45 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: If the element that controls is also a menu item, then step 4. I could explain that better.
- 17:27:54 [aardrian]
- bryang: Could that be a button?
- 17:28:01 [sarah]
- q+
- 17:28:02 [aardrian]
- matt_king: What happens in that case?
- 17:28:29 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: Sounds reasonable; I think we no ARIA menu button in MSAA...
- 17:29:11 [aardrian]
- sarah: How we usually build menus, the pop-up is rendered at the end of the DOM with its own z-index and positioning. For every submenu. I don't think we're unique.
- 17:29:24 [aardrian]
- sarah: I think we wrangling for more than is useful when looking at the DOM.
- 17:29:44 [sarah]
- ack me
- 17:29:54 [aardrian]
- matt_King: We had at one time recommend aria-controls, but people said there was no use so we removed it.
- 17:30:19 [aardrian]
- matt_king: I could not find the issue for why we removed it. Do we want to revisit? Did you find the use case, Aaron?
- 17:30:43 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: No. To answer Sarah, the aria-controls can give it an accName.
- 17:31:04 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: We can have a fallback in the worst case scenario.
- 17:31:31 [aardrian]
- matt_king: Should we bring aria-controls back into the menu pattern so it provides a name to the menu?
- 17:31:43 [aardrian]
- matt_king: We might use aria-labelledby on the menu pointing to the...
- 17:32:16 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: Yeah, if #2 says another element controls this then there is a relation. So we need a half step where we use the name on the menu, if none, then the name of the thing controlling the menu.
- 17:33:07 [aardrian]
- alventhal: That second step means it doesn't matter if its a menu item because we can use its name.
- 17:33:21 [aardrian]
- sarah: Are we taking out DOM walking, previous sibling as a fallback?
- 17:33:31 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Can we? Isn't it part of the algo?
- 17:34:07 [aardrian]
- sarah: The obscure DOM non-relationship scares me. We don't usually name fly-outs, but now trying to debug how it got its name from a random element seems tricky.
- 17:34:23 [aardrian]
- jamesn: This is fallback naming. Ideally authors would name them, so this is when authors fail to do so.
- 17:35:06 [aardrian]
- matt_king: The concern Sarah has is the fallback could make a worse name than just "menu" as Aaron suggests.
- 17:35:15 [aardrian]
- matt_king: So this can be a worse outcome.
- 17:35:53 [aardrian]
- sarah: Yes. A lot of things don't have names, such as file menus. We don't use aria-controls now, so the fallback would come into play and we would get some weird names based on the DOM structure.
- 17:36:52 [aardrian]
- matt_king: When using touch, it seems like it could be a problem if a touch view presents an odd reading order.
- 17:37:11 [aardrian]
- sarah: We use differen things for leveled flyouts.
- 17:37:25 [aardrian]
- bryang: There's no association in iOS.
- 17:37:47 [aardrian]
- sarah: It does, but you should test it. Shout out to James Craig.
- 17:38:06 [aardrian]
- matt_king: If aria-owns is used, how would that affect the DOM?
- 17:38:31 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: This is talking about siblings or parents and looking at aria-owns because it restructures the tree.
- 17:38:46 [aardrian]
- matt_king: Does that bring the structure back into use, Sarah?
- 17:39:20 [aardrian]
- sarah: I think it's brittle. It's common to not have hierarchical structures, to not name menus, to now use aria-owns.
- 17:39:33 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Can you come up with examples in the wild?
- 17:39:36 [aardrian]
- sarah: Sure.
- 17:39:58 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: We're trying to close some gaps, so any feedback is good.
- 17:40:12 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: Thinking about a Share menu and if that will make redundant announcements.
- 17:40:39 [jamesn]
- agenda?
- 17:40:44 [aardrian]
- matt_king: Working on that with ARIA-AT. When moving from one menu item to another it would say nothing about the container unless you request information about a specific item.
- 17:41:04 [aardrian]
- matt_king: Neither TalkBack or VO/iOS have a way to explore that info, but on desktop you can get that info.
- 17:41:11 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: WHat about when it opens?
- 17:41:17 [aardrian]
- matt_king: Yes.
- 17:41:33 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: When I down arrow I'll get it.
- 17:41:46 [aardrian]
- matt_king: If down arrow opens it, then you already heard it.
- 17:42:08 [aardrian]
- aleventhal: I just arrow right and it opens a menu.
- 17:42:23 [aardrian]
- matt_king: arrowing shouldn't just open a menu so it should have no effect.
- 17:42:29 [aardrian]
- bryang: You would need a live region.
- 17:43:05 [aardrian]
- matt_king: It's about when you put focus into it. Normally I didn't think submenus would expand automatically on focus. On desktop I might hear "Share, menu collapsed."
- 17:43:26 [pkra]
- I have to leave early today. Bye everyone.
- 17:43:36 [aardrian]
- jamesn: We have more agenda items. Go read the proposal, comment there. Note Sarah's comments where things might get worse.
- 17:43:51 [aardrian]
- Sarah: So far all those would be wrong, so I'll add comments.
- 17:43:55 [aardrian]
- zakim, next item
- 17:43:55 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 -- -> Remove group as allowed child of tree https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2094 -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 17:44:02 [aaronlev]
- aaronlev has joined #ARIA
- 17:44:03 [ray-schwartz]
- ray-schwartz has joined #ARIA
- 17:44:12 [aardrian]
- zakim, take up item 6
- 17:44:12 [Zakim]
- agendum 6 -- -> TPAC https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/TPAC-2024-ARIA-Meetings#topics-to-schedule -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 17:44:28 [aardrian]
- jamesn: This is our topics we have been asked to put on the agenda for TPAC.
- 17:44:49 [aardrian]
- jamesn: We have a number of issues.
- 17:45:04 [jamesn]
- ARIA (now) yearly process review+feedback
- 17:45:24 [dmontalvo]
- present+ Daniel
- 17:45:30 [aardrian]
- aardrian has joined #aria
- 17:45:31 [giacomo-petri]
- giacomo-petri has joined #aria
- 17:45:59 [jamesn]
- 2025 prioritization
- 17:46:18 [jamesn]
- Relationship between ARIA and AT
- 17:46:26 [aardrian]
- jamesn: And how to improve that.
- 17:46:30 [jamesn]
- Prohibited name repair (prototype available in Chromium)
- 17:46:58 [aardrian]
- spectranaut_: There are questions about agenda setters. Now's a good time for someone to set it.
- 17:47:08 [aardrian]
- spectranaut_: We might not schedule it if no agenda.
- 17:47:25 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Aaron can you take the prohibited name one?
- 17:47:28 [jamesn]
- New HTML features - updates
- 17:48:50 [aardrian]
- Conversation about attendance happens.
- 17:49:09 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Aaron and Scott for that one.
- 17:49:20 [jamesn]
- New CSS features - updates
- 17:49:27 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Also for Aaron.
- 17:50:27 [aardrian]
- matt_kind: I thought interactive lists and list view were the same thing.
- 17:51:09 [spectranaut_]
- scribe+
- 17:51:11 [aardrian]
- aardrian has joined #aria
- 17:51:13 [aardrian]
- spectranaut_: You and Sarah submitted them.
- 17:51:27 [spectranaut_]
- conclusion: same topic, sarah and matt will work offline
- 17:51:31 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Matt and Sarah will work on that.
- 17:51:45 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Doug will not be at TPAC for ARIA notify.
- 17:52:44 [aardrian]
- Smockle: ALlison and Keith will be there.
- 17:53:02 [aardrian]
- alison: Happy to help.
- 17:53:49 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Can you run this Adrian?
- 17:54:01 [aardrian]
- aardrian: Yup, will ask for help setting it.
- 17:54:12 [jamesn]
- User agent and authoring requirements for aria-actions
- 17:54:15 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Three of Matt's at the end. You good to run that?
- 17:54:20 [aardrian]
- matt_king: Yup.
- 17:54:27 [jamesn]
- Update on ARIA-AT
- 17:54:29 [aardrian]
- matt_king: Hopefully with APG examples.
- 17:55:00 [jamesn]
- AT expectations for aria-actions
- 17:55:07 [aardrian]
- jamesn: we can maybe align that with authoring requirements.
- 17:55:25 [aardrian]
- jamesn: So we need to keep them in the order listed.
- 17:55:52 [aardrian]
- jamesn: If the order for your session matters, say so.
- 17:56:06 [aardrian]
- jamesn: We have room in the agenda and meetings with other WGs.
- 17:56:28 [aardrian]
- jamesn: The immersive web one is unclear to me. Who called for it and what are we talking about?
- 17:56:36 [aardrian]
- spectranaut_: We should check in.
- 17:56:55 [aardrian]
- dmontalvo: I didn't request anything with them.
- 17:57:11 [aardrian]
- dmontalvo: I'll see if I can find out, but they may be placeholders.
- 17:57:48 [aardrian]
- jamesn: So we have room on the schedule, but propose sooner rather than later.
- 17:58:01 [aardrian]
- jamesn: I imagine we can fill two days with this. Aaron could fill both.
- 17:58:02 [Rahim]
- q+
- 17:58:17 [aardrian]
- matt_king: Good not to overload TPAC.
- 17:58:46 [aardrian]
- rahim: I'd like to propose an ARIA IDL topic. I've been researching and would like to discuss stuff with the group.
- 17:59:02 [aardrian]
- jamesn: Make an issue and tag it with f2fcandidate, we can agenda it.
- 17:59:32 [aardrian]
- jcraig: Rahim has been working hard on this, so I want him to field the questions, not me.
- 17:59:47 [aardrian]
- zakim, end meeting
- 17:59:47 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been giacomo-petri, spectranaut_, pkra, filippo-zorzi, aardrian, sarah, smockle, Rahim, Matt_King, melsumner, Daniel
- 17:59:51 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
- 17:59:52 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/29-aria-minutes.html Zakim
- 17:59:59 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, aardrian; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 17:59:59 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #aria