12:57:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:57:27 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/28-matf-irc
12:57:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:57:28 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:57:29 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 28 August 2024
12:57:29 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:57:39 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 28 August 2024
12:57:47 <JJ> present+
12:58:00 <JJ> agenda+ SC's that apply as written in WCAG2ICT
12:58:07 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.4 Link Purpose (In Context)
12:58:12 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.6 Headings and Labels
12:59:22 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
12:59:35 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.7 Focus Visible
13:00:10 <illai> illai has joined #matf
13:00:40 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
13:00:41 <JJ> regrets+ GleidsonRamos
13:00:43 <JJ> regrets+ Devanshu
13:00:49 <JJ> regrets+ Karla
13:00:58 <quintinb> present+
13:01:05 <julianmka> present+
13:02:14 <illai> present+
13:03:02 <Mick> Mick has joined #MATF
13:03:36 <Mick> present+
13:04:30 <JJ> Scribe: quintinb
13:04:59 <Carol> Carol has joined #MATF
13:06:04 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:06:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- SC's that apply as written in WCAG2ICT -- taken up [from JJ]
13:06:16 <JJ> Link to recently updated issues with small variation label: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+sort%3Aupdated-desc+label%3Asmall-variation
13:06:44 <quintinb> Note: Joe Humbert is present, just not in chat
13:07:22 <julianmka> q+
13:08:01 <Carol> present+
13:10:12 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:10:21 <Mick> q+
13:10:49 <JJ> present+ JoeHumbert
13:10:55 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:11:02 <Jamie> present+
13:11:32 <JJ> ack Mick
13:13:28 <quintinb> julianmka we started using the WCAG2ICT language - but needs a vote
13:13:58 <Jamie> q+
13:14:09 <Jamie> q-
13:14:17 <quintinb> Mick checked we're not looking into techniques at this time
13:15:22 <illai> The WCAG to ICT is actually describe what it means
13:15:55 <julianmka> q+
13:16:10 <Mick> I look at a link in mobile only as a hyperlink that exits the app. While buttons to move between views, which is more covered under 2.4.6 Headings and Labels
13:16:22 <julianmka> q-
13:16:28 <julianmka> +1 Mick
13:17:09 <Jamie> q+
13:17:22 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:17:22 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JJ
13:17:35 <JJ> q?
13:17:39 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:17:41 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:17:41 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.4.4 Link Purpose (In Context) -- taken up [from JJ]
13:18:57 <quintinb> Jamie Look at the SC in normative text: Are we as a group deciding to just consider this as referencing only a link? Would the button scenarios be covered elsewhere?
13:20:43 <quintinb> Links can also navigate around a page (skip links)
13:21:05 <quintinb> It seems specific to links themselves, not their function
13:21:11 <JJ> q?
13:21:34 <illai> q+
13:22:08 <quintinb> Jamie There are times where things look like a link to do other things. There is some variation in how companies have interpreted this SC
13:22:49 <JJ> ack illai
13:23:50 <quintinb> illai maybe we should consider removing it from small changes, because if we aren't sure about how it's conveyed to users could present confusion. We need to define what link means in mobile app context
13:23:52 <julianmka> +1 Illai
13:23:57 <JJ> Change 2.4.4 label from small to medium or large? Comment below.
13:24:07 <Jamie> +1 medium
13:24:12 <julianmka> +1 medium
13:24:13 <quintinb> +1 medium
13:24:18 <illai> +1medium
13:24:20 <Mick> +1 medium
13:24:58 <quintinb> JJ we need to make sure folks know that we can change the labels if we feel we need to
13:25:00 <JJ> ACTION: Change 2.4.4 label to medium
13:25:54 <julianmka> q+
13:25:58 <JJ> ACTION: Create issue for Link definition in context of apps?
13:26:02 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:27:04 <illai> q+
13:27:19 <quintinb> julianmka Can we start hashing out a definition of links?
13:28:29 <JJ> ack illai
13:29:31 <quintinb> illai: Related is headings and labels: How do we test this? It seems very opinionated? Can we define it in an atomic way? There seems to be space for interpretation
13:30:25 <julianmka> q+
13:30:46 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:31:14 <quintinb> julianmka The key definition is going to lie in the behaviour. Testability is going to be manual
13:31:31 <quintinb> illai: Even manually, auditors may disagree
13:31:59 <Jamie> q+
13:32:07 <Jamie> q-
13:33:25 <Mick> Apple Developer on a link "'A control for navigating to a URL" https://developer.apple.com/documentation/swiftui/link
13:33:25 <Mick> On a button "A control that initiates an action." https://developer.apple.com/documentation/swiftui/button
13:33:46 <Jamie> the links in the SC are modeling what is meant, see "ambiguous to users in general"
13:36:40 <Jamie> do we need to define link now?
13:37:38 <JJ> q?
13:37:47 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:37:47 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.4.6 Headings and Labels -- taken up [from JJ]
13:38:47 <quintinb> +2 to note2
13:39:47 <Mick> This SC might have cross over with 2.4.4 depending on our definition of links
13:41:09 <quintinb> q+
13:42:22 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:43:17 <quintinb> With dynamic loading, do we expect headings to be available on screen when they have not been loaded yet?
13:44:34 <Mick> q+
13:45:13 <Jamie> the actual text seems like it would stay the same to me
13:45:22 <JJ> ack Mick
13:46:12 <quintinb> Mick With mobile, it makes sense that each view has a description at the top of it
13:46:23 <Jamie> out of scope for this SC
13:46:29 <julianmka> q+
13:47:11 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:47:26 <JJ> Add best-practice note for headings?
13:47:56 <Jamie> I would put that best practice note on Screen Titles, not here
13:48:28 <quintinb> julianmka Pushing back: there are many times where headings would be superfluous - they are useful to break up content (e.g. infinite content). Headings should be used to delineate actual content chunks
13:48:42 <julianmka> +1 Jamie
13:48:57 <illai> +1 to julianmka
13:49:13 <julianmka> q+
13:49:38 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:50:25 <Jamie> q+
13:50:38 <Jamie> q-
13:50:52 <Jamie> q+
13:50:59 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:51:48 <JJ> Jamie: shouldn't this SC be in Principle 3 Understandable instead of Principle 2 Operable
13:51:53 <quintinb> Jamie This SC doesn't really make sense in operable, since it's not functional.
13:53:37 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:53:37 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 2.4.7 Focus Visible -- taken up [from JJ]
13:54:55 <quintinb> We need to define "keyboard operable user interface"
13:55:24 <Jamie> was there a reasin to need large variation from WCAG?
13:56:06 <JJ> ACTION: Add minutes from variations to discussed SC's
13:57:38 <Jamie> q+
13:57:44 <julianmka> Techniques for keyboard focus in Android ViewUI: https://github.com/cvs-health/android-view-accessibility-techniques/blob/0ffd2aad8f8eada9893295ac47cc9ee9bf21372d/doc/dynamicbehaviors/CustomFocusIndicators.md#L4
13:57:52 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:57:56 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:58:14 <julianmka> Techniques for keyboard focus in Android Compose: https://github.com/cvs-health/android-compose-accessibility-techniques/blob/main/doc/interactions/CustomFocusIndicators.md
13:58:40 <quintinb> Jamie quintinb it's not really our job to tell developers
13:58:42 <julianmka> ^^ I don't have the depth to evaluate these techniques but interested in others' takes
13:59:12 <Jamie> q+
13:59:28 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:01:03 <quintinb> Jamie This is one of the few SC's where an external keyboard is required.
14:02:18 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:02:19 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been JJ, quintinb, julianmka, illai, Mick, Carol, JoeHumbert, Jamie
14:02:22 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:02:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/28-matf-minutes.html JJ