18:01:18 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:01:23 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/27-aria-apg-irc 18:01:35 rrsagent, make log public 18:01:42 Zakim, start the meeting 18:01:42 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:01:44 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:01:53 present+ jugglinmike 18:01:55 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 18:01:56 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:01:59 present+ 18:02:00 rrsagent, make minutes 18:02:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/27-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem 18:03:44 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:04:10 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/August-27%2C-2024-Agenda 18:04:41 present+ jaeun_Jemma_Ku 18:04:48 present+ lola 18:04:53 present+ adam 18:05:02 present+ mck 18:05:09 present+ curt 18:11:16 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:11:31 Jem: Next meeting: September 3 18:13:37 Matt_King: Next week's meeting follows a holiday in the US; if this impacts our work, we can push publication back by a few days 18:14:37 Adam_Page has joined #aria-apg 18:14:42 jugglinmike: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:14:46 present+ 18:14:57 jugglinmike: Hearing none, we'll move on as planned 18:15:02 Topic: Publication planning 18:15:25 Matt_King: so far, I've merged two things: Ari's fix and one other fix 18:15:46 Matt_King: We also have the high-contrast page and the pull request related to KBD elements 18:16:17 Matt_King: I'm going to make one change to the KBD pull request (the change is related to the templates) 18:16:38 Matt_King: John_Gunderson isn't present today to talk about high-contrast 18:16:54 Matt_King: I'd also like to get the toolbar changes in to this milestone 18:17:18 Topic: MDN integration 18:17:24 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3098 18:17:44 Lola: While I was at Bocoup, this idea had been floated around from Boaz and some other colleagues 18:18:16 Lola: It had been de-prioritized in Bocoup's larger work, but now that I am working independently, I have the bandwidth to focus on this work 18:18:36 Lola: Last week, I met with Ruth John (sp?), the senior manager at MDN 18:18:45 Lola: She's very excited about the potential of this integration 18:18:55 Lola: MDN is currently undergoing a re-write of the platform 18:19:11 Lola: It may not effect the front-end, but the back-end is certainly changing 18:19:24 Lola: The main question right now is where the content should live 18:19:51 Lola: The ideal scenario would be to have a CMS that both MDN and APG could consume 18:20:00 Lola: However, I think that would take a lot of time and effort 18:20:12 Lola: I think Ruth is thinking about having a copy of what's happening in APG 18:20:30 Lola: Or completely moving the patterns from APG and maintaining them in MDN 18:21:05 Lola: Another thing to consider is that the ARIA-AT data (the data that says, e.g. that the "alert" pattern is compatible for JAWS in Chrome) is hosted from an iframe 18:21:38 Lola: We would probably have to think about making that an API instead so that it can be more efficiently consumed by MDN. Similar to the BCD project 18:21:55 Lola: At the moment, there is no funding for this work, but I am looking for funding, now 18:22:15 Lola: I've also spoken to Open Web Docs--the other contributors and maintainers of MDN 18:22:27 Lola: They are all gung-ho and excited for this work, as well 18:22:36 Matt_King: I think we need to sit down and write some goals and vision 18:22:40 Lola: Agreed 18:23:02 Matt_King: I don't think it would be good (from the perspective of serving our mission) to move anything outside of aria-practices 18:23:28 Matt_King: If we have to make changes to the structure of our content to make it more consumable, that would work 18:24:10 Matt_King: I don't know if the right word here is to make it possible to "syndicate" the content, but conceptually, that's what I'm imagining 18:24:34 Matt_King: But again, that's where writing down the goals and the vision becomes very important because that shapes the conversation about solutions 18:24:56 Lola: It's possible that in the coming weeks, someone in Mozilla will join us here so they can give us context about the preferable solution 18:25:28 Lola: I have the sense that an API will fit in with their long-term vision for MDN 18:26:41 Matt_King: It would be amazing if, any time someone wanted to write about something in APG, they could just "suck in" specific examples to their content 18:27:39 Jem: I love working with MDN because that's the first place that developers usually go 18:28:11 Jem: I agree with Matt_King about the scope of this work. I'd much prefer to integrate/syndicate our work with MDN rather than relocate it 18:29:13 Lola: Matt_King, you had originally mentioned that you felt like this would take a number of years. Having heard a bit more, do you still feel that way? 18:29:30 Matt_King: Well, it depends on the approach we take. It sounds like you've already laid a fair amount of groundwork with a bunch of people 18:29:47 Matt_King: Moving the APG from a "TR" to its own website--the startup part of it--took a long time 18:29:57 Matt_King: We had to align many stakeholders with different goals 18:30:11 Matt_King: Addressing concerns related to the mission of the website, etc. 18:30:30 Matt_King: Part of it is due to the speed of the W3C and how many people are spread across many people all at once 18:30:52 Matt_King: I imagine that this could quite a bit quicker, especially if there was funding for someone to work on whatever coding needs to happen 18:31:08 One thing to add is that there are more stakeholders other than MDN, APG and Meta. There are WAI, ARIA and other many stakeholders. 18:31:33 Matt_King: Grant-seeking and contracting generally takes time, though. I think this might be done in the span of six months to a year, though 18:31:57 Matt_King: I think the initial alignment on vision and getting things written down in a clear way will go a long way in helping us figure out what potential roadblocks might exist 18:32:35 Lola: Next week, I can bring a one-page document describing goals and stakeholders 18:32:54 Lola: I will send that document and this GitHub issue to Ruth 18:33:25 john ruth 18:33:32 Ruth John 18:34:01 Topic: Simple JSDoc PR for modal dialog 18:34:10 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3083 18:34:23 Matt_King: We just need someone to volunteer to review 18:34:31 Adam_Page: I'll take it 18:34:39 Jem: Thank you! I'll assign you 18:34:51 Topic: Tabs with action buttons 18:34:58 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3071 18:35:15 Adam_Page: We took a preliminary look last week. Since then, I made a few changes and pushed them up 18:35:29 Matt_King: In your comments, you mentioned some of the different options you considered 18:36:31 Adam_Page: Basically, I had two motives for creating three examples. One was to test my own JavaScript for robustness and handle different scenarios. But it's also because ARIA Actions is still somewhat pending. I thought multiple examples might help move that discussion along 18:36:57 Adam_Page: The first example is maybe the most complex. It's a tab set where the menu button is the referenced ARIA Action 18:37:18 Adam_Page: Though each tab has four actions that can be performed on it 18:37:58 Adam_Page: The menu button is inside the tab list. Then I have a "div" element with role "presentation" that collects the tab 18:38:14 Matt_King: Well, a "div" element is generic by default, so it doesn't need the "presentation" role 18:38:16 Adam_Page: Good point 18:39:40 Adam_Page: In the second example, instead of having a menu item with a popover, I just stuffed two proper buttons inside each tab 18:39:56 Adam_Page: For ARIA Actions, that's where I'm now referencing both of those buttons 18:40:47 Adam_Page: For the third example, there are no ARIA Actions at all. This is just a sort of "standard" tab set. I included this to ensure that my JavaScript changes didn't interfere with the most basic use-case 18:41:31 Matt_King: The way I was thinking we might want to present different use cases like this (e.g. multiple actions versus a single menu button approach), I was thinking we might want to do it on different APG examples 18:41:43 Matt_King: ...and think a little bit about what people tend to do in the wild the most 18:42:03 Matt_King: I was imagining in a tab list... it's hard to imagine that people are going to stuff a lot of buttons into each tab 18:42:17 Matt_King: People DO actually do that with trees sometimes 18:42:38 Matt_King: Isn't it more likely that you're going to have a single button in a tab? 18:42:52 Adam_Page: Probably, yes, and it will probably by a "close" button 18:46:37 Matt_King: It's also very common for people to put a button at the end of tab lists which pops open a list of tabs that couldn't fit 18:46:55 Matt_King: In that case, though, the actions wouldn't be associated with any individual tab but rather with the tab list itself 18:47:47 Matt_King: I was thinking for this multiple button one, we might want to try to do that on the "file viewer tree" (or whatever it is called). I'm kind of wondering what it might look like if you had an option for "Delete", "rename" and more--right in the file tree 18:48:12 Matt_King: Because that seems like how people want to use it in a tree--to be able to contextually expose Actions on each individual tree item 18:48:32 Adam_Page: I've been thinking about Gmail 18:48:52 Matt_King: Well, Gmail has implemented a tree grid 18:49:12 Matt_King: The one I was thinking about is in VSCode, where you have the trees of Git history, or the outline of your code 18:49:36 Matt_King: ...and they have a toolbar next to it (though I don't know how that works visually) 18:50:22 Adam_Page: I'm looking at some of VSCode's tree views right now. It looks like they're doing it with persistent toolbars, but there are a number of places where they use lists of things--I need to explore their interface some more 18:50:40 Adam_Page: There's certainly the context menu 18:50:51 Matt_King: The context menu is very similar to what you made here 18:51:27 Adam_Page: I would say so, except there is no explicit visual affordance to know that a context menu is available. Users just have to know that it's available and how to activate it 18:52:52 Matt_King: There's some more exploration to do here, just in terms of making decisions of what we put forward 18:53:19 Matt_King: I would love it it these examples are based on things that we know people do or things that we know people want to do, just so we're sure that we're solving real problems 18:53:28 Matt_King: So it kind of feels like we should stick with your first example 18:54:05 Matt_King: If we do that, then if we take this concept of "multiple actions per focusable element" (I'd also like to do that on something like the tab container)... I just don't know how this is going to work 18:54:37 Adam_Page: The "overflow" use case you mentioned earlier is interesting to me because the tab list is not traditionally a focusable element 18:55:04 Matt_King: We have a separate issue for that. I could bring it up and we could maybe address that issue as well 18:55:41 Matt_King: What you said about the way VSCode works, where only the active tab has a "close" button on it, do you think that might work for another example with the overflow, where we put a "close" button on each tab which would only be visible on focus...? 18:56:04 Adam_Page: I misspoke about that; the tab doesn't have to be active for the button to be visible 18:56:17 Matt_King: What do you think of, for this pull request, doing what you have in the first one? 18:56:59 Adam_Page: That sounds great. I think the second example could be adapted in the direction of what you're talking about. It could have just the "close" button, and we might extend it to demonstrate the "overflow" case 18:57:16 Adam_Page: That feels like it transcends ARIA Actions and starts to re-think what a tab-list could actually contain 18:57:26 Matt_King: I think ARIA Actions is supposed to handle this case, too 18:59:09 Bryan_Garaventa: If you're including the buttons inside the tab, what does that mean for the accessible name of the tab? 18:59:12 present+ Bryan_Garaventa 18:59:56 Adam_Page: Well, the parent-child relationship is only suggested visually in that case. In the actual structure of the document, the tab and buttons are siblings 19:00:35 Matt_King: This will be on the agenda at TPAC! 19:01:05 Matt_King: So we made a decision: Adam_Page is going with the first one and pulling out the other two. I'll share a link to the existing issue about the "overflow" scenario 19:01:19 present+ 19:01:41 Zakim, end the meeting 19:01:41 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, howard-e, jaeun_Jemma_Ku, lola, adam, mck, curt, Adam_Page, Bryan_Garaventa, CurtBellew 19:01:44 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:01:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/27-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:01:51 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:01:52 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:01:54 RRSAgent, leave 19:01:54 I see no action items