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15:52:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/15-rdf-star-irc
15:52:27 <TallTed> Zakim, bye
15:52:27 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been enrico, gkellogg, TallTed, AndyS, pfps, niklasl, thomas, doerthe, Souri
15:52:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
15:52:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-star
15:53:44 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star WG biweekly meeting — 2024-08-15 — https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/348e384e-2c0d-4c88-bb5c-5ddddf93ef4d/20240815T120000/
15:54:00 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star WG biweekly meeting
15:54:00 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/348e384e-2c0d-4c88-bb5c-5ddddf93ef4d/20240815T120000/
15:54:00 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:54:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/08/01-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/08/08-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:54:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion
15:54:01 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [3]
15:54:01 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at [4]
15:54:04 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:54:12 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:54:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:54:18 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:54:39 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
15:54:57 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/08/09-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:54:57 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/08/16-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:55:56 <TallTed> s/leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been enrico, gkellogg, TallTed, AndyS, pfps, niklasl, thomas, doerthe, Souri//
15:56:03 <TallTed> present+
15:56:07 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:56:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:58:28 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
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16:00:30 <ktk> present+
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16:00:55 <ora> present+
16:00:59 <ora> chair: ora
16:01:01 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
16:01:07 <gtw> present+
16:01:17 <gkellogg> present+
16:01:29 <niklasl> present+
16:01:40 <tl> present+
16:01:53 <eBremer> eBremer has joined #rdf-star
16:02:00 <eBremer> present+
16:02:43 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:02:47 <olaf> present+
16:02:53 <Souri> present+
16:02:59 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
16:03:06 <doerthe> present+
16:03:07 <tl> ora: new member william
16:03:30 <tl> william: member of Notation3 CG
16:04:05 <tl> interested in RDF+ for quite a while, quoted graph terms in N3
16:04:19 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #Rdf-star
16:04:25 <tl> ... identifiers welcome
16:04:31 <tl> ... invited expert
16:04:45 <Dominik_T> present+
16:05:00 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:05:00 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/08/01-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/08/08-rdf-star-minutes.html --
16:05:03 <Zakim> ... taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:26 <william_vw> william_vw has joined #rdf-star
16:05:35 <Souri> +1
16:06:04 <ora> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes from 2024-08-01 and 2024-08-08
16:06:09 <gkellogg> +1
16:06:12 <niklasl> +1
16:06:13 <gtw> +1
16:06:13 <ktk> +1
16:06:13 <ora> +1
16:06:16 <AndyS> present+
16:06:18 <AndyS> +1
16:06:19 <tl> +1
16:06:19 <doerthe> +1
16:06:26 <tl> s/interested in RDF+/...interested in RDF*
16:06:28 <TallTed> +1
16:06:32 <olaf> 0 (abstain, as I wasn't there)
16:06:44 <william_vw> 0 (also abstaining)
16:06:51 <gkellogg> present+ william_vw
16:06:53 <fsasaki> present+
16:06:54 <TallTed> s/interested in RDF\*/interested in RDF-star
16:07:02 <tl> s/new member william/new member William van Woensel
16:07:02 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
16:07:02 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:07:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:07:24 <eBremer> +!
16:07:26 <eBremer> +1
16:07:26 <fsasaki> +1
16:07:27 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #Rdf-star
16:07:30 <ora> RESOLVED: Approve minutes from 2024-08-01 and 2024-08-08
16:07:37 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:07:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:07:56 <TallTed> s/...interested in RDF*/...interested in RDF-star/
16:08:02 <pfps> present+
16:08:04 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:08:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:08:17 <tl> ora:would like to rest issue of profiles
16:08:47 <ora> q?
16:08:49 <pfps> q+
16:08:59 <pfps> q-
16:09:19 <ktk> q+
16:09:26 <ora> ack ktk
16:09:38 <pfps> q+
16:09:39 <tl> s/ora:would like to rest issue of profiles/ora: would like to have a final discussion on profiles
16:10:04 <tl> adrian: please provide a proposal in writing before next call
16:10:34 <tl> ora: will do, probably next week, at least to clarify what it is we are looking fr
16:10:51 <tl> ... any objections to having profiles
16:11:21 <tl> s/any objections/would be interested to know about any objections
16:11:35 <tl> ... open cypher over RDF now supported in AWS
16:12:06 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
16:12:19 <Dominik_T> s/open cypher/OpenCypher/
16:12:22 <niklasl> present+
16:12:24 <tl> ... any objections?
16:12:30 <ora> ack pfps
16:12:57 <tl> peter: very much too early for a discussion about profiles, because we're still trying to put the baseline in place
16:13:41 <tl> ora: understand, but ... would like to have a discusion about if we even support teh idea of profiles, and I know taht you Peter are against it.
16:13:57 <tl> ... would it be considered haarmful to have profiles
16:14:09 <gkellogg> q+
16:14:10 <tl> peter: profiles are an evil, but someties a necessary evil
16:14:40 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:14:43 <tl> ora: much rather like to have a single standard, but my organisation has specific needs
16:14:50 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:15:01 <enrico> present+
16:15:13 <tl> gkellog: we do have different profiles already - classic and triple terms
16:15:16 <ktk> present+ william_vw
16:15:20 <ora> Neptune Analytics now supports openCypher over RDF: https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/database/build-and-deploy-knowledge-graphs-faster-with-rdf-and-opencypher/
16:16:13 <tl> ora: have a more general discussion about profiles?
16:16:24 <tl> q+
16:16:30 <ora> ack tl
16:17:02 <enrico> q+
16:17:07 <ora> ack enrico
16:17:21 <tl> tl: discuss more details about AWS problems/profile requirement
16:18:05 <tl> ora: would like to have a profile that allows us to say we support RDF 1.2 but still not support many-to-many reifications
16:18:15 <niklasl> Thomas' mentioned mail after last week's discussion (about "LPG many-to-many"): https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Aug/0043.html
16:18:38 <tl> enrico: but that's a major problem for the RDF side
16:18:54 <tl> ... maybe best practice
16:19:13 <fsasaki> q+
16:19:27 <tl> ora: if soemone says that this blows up RDF or implementions or etc, then happy tp discuss
16:19:29 <ora> ack fsasaki
16:19:58 <tl> fsasaki: would prefer to have this discussion related to profiles rather sooner than later
16:20:45 <ora> PROPOSAL: Next week: general discussion about profiles (esp. "LPG-profile"), what's possible, what's not, caveats/pitfalls
16:20:52 <tl> adrian: is marcel otto using teh many-to-many reifications?
16:21:12 <tl> niklas: he has re-invented them, because he used an earlier version of RDF-star
16:21:29 <ktk> s/teh/the/
16:21:32 <ora> +1
16:21:34 <AndyS> +1
16:21:35 <Dominik_T> +0.5
16:21:36 <fsasaki> +1
16:21:36 <gtw> +1
16:21:42 <ktk> +1
16:21:45 <TallTed> +1
16:21:46 <Souri> +1
16:21:50 <ktk> regrets+ AZ
16:21:51 <tl> 0 (scribing)
16:21:51 <enrico> +1
16:21:53 <doerthe> +1
16:21:53 <niklasl> +1
16:21:54 <olaf> +1
16:21:57 <gkellogg> +1
16:22:08 <ora> RESOLVED: Next week: general discussion about profiles (esp. "LPG-profile"), what's possible, what's not, caveats/pitfalls
16:22:08 <niklasl> q+
16:22:14 <ora> ack niklasl
16:22:52 <tl> niklas: discussion about consequences of profiles (ups and downs), not so much about many-to-many
16:23:10 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:23:10 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of pull requests, available at -- taken up [from 3]
16:23:25 <AndyS> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
16:23:26 <tl> ora: interested in possible consequences of profiles, things that may be blowing up
16:23:45 <gkellogg> q+
16:24:29 <tl> ora: item 4 seems like an obvious candidate. is it old enough?
16:24:40 <tl> gkellog: update to turtle
16:25:20 <tl> ... changed name of reified triple production, to "reifying triple", maybe let this sit an other week
16:25:36 <tl> ... like to hear andy's opinion
16:25:50 <tl> andys: time constraints...
16:26:14 <tl> gkellog: probably that we will be able to merge after next week
16:26:28 <ktk> regrets+ pchampin
16:26:33 <tl> ... changes in turtle that i'd like to have eyes on
16:26:47 <tl> s/an other/another
16:27:16 <tl> s/gkellog: probably/gkellog: probable
16:27:45 <tl> ora: what about the readme
16:28:04 <tl> s/peter:/pfps:
16:28:34 <gkellogg> s/gkellog:/gkellogg:/g
16:28:54 <tl> ora: what about "informative definition of reified triple"?
16:29:12 <tl> gkellog: not sure if it really belongs in RDF concepts
16:29:23 <tl> ... best practices need a definition
16:30:09 <tl> s/gkellog/gkellogg
16:30:12 <olaf> q+
16:30:20 <gkellogg> q-
16:30:27 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:30:29 <ora> ack olaf
16:31:03 <tl> olaf: about sparql specs, some examples with shorthand notation sensible, but not all of them
16:31:16 <AndyS> q+
16:31:25 <tl> ... some examples will need standard notation
16:31:45 <tl> ... so we shouldn't change ALL examples to shorthand notation
16:31:55 <tl> gkellogg: agrees
16:32:33 <ora> ack AndyS
16:33:07 <tl> AndyS: working on sparql grammer reflecting recent syntax changes
16:33:15 <tl> ... testing ongoing
16:33:31 <tl> ora: guess that's it for pull requests
16:33:38 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:33:38 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Issue Triage, available at -- taken up [from 4]
16:34:12 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
16:34:23 <tl> gkellogg: a lot of things in there probably just need to be disposed of
16:34:41 <tl> ... should take time to trim this down to things we actually work on
16:34:47 <tl> ... maybe at TPAC
16:34:59 <tl> ora: agrees w.r.t. TPAC
16:35:17 <TallTed> +1 to focus a call on triage. TPAC time is a possibility.
16:35:24 <tl> ora: did get travel approval for TPAC, so will be there
16:35:52 <tl> ... anything we could dispose now?
16:36:15 <ora> q?
16:36:27 <tl> ... many small editorial things that shouldn't take much time to take care of
16:36:29 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/34
16:36:30 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/34 -> Issue 34 Terminology for graph/dataset without triple terms. (by gkellogg) [propose closing] [spec:editorial]
16:36:51 <tl> gkellogg: rdf concepts line 9
16:37:02 <tl> ... could be closed, is all done
16:37:32 <tl> aaaand ... closed
16:38:16 <tl> ora: a lot of untagged ones. would someone volunteer to tag them before we go through them?
16:38:34 <pfps> at various times I have gone through the list and tagged the ones that I could.  I think I ended up tagging 20 or 30.
16:38:52 <ora> q?
16:38:55 <tl> gkellogg: when they come from outside they should not be just closed but get some formal response
16:39:13 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:39:13 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:39:14 <tl> ora: tanks pfps
16:39:23 <ora> s/tanks/thanks
16:40:10 <tl> gkellogg: rdf:states needs discussion
16:40:27 <tl> ora: good idea, thoughts?
16:40:37 <Souri> q+
16:40:47 <ora> ack Souri
16:40:56 <Souri> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Aug/0077.html
16:41:08 <tl> gkellogg: prefers other ways that don't rely on more predicates, might look hackish
16:41:27 <tl> souri: the more i think of it i find it is essential, not a hack
16:42:29 <tl> ... (shares screen)
16:42:47 <enrico> I agree with gkellogg
16:43:08 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
16:44:42 <enrico> q+
16:44:43 <TallTed> q+
16:45:04 <tl> ... explains example how :Bob being in different working companies, annoatted with different times, overwrites "unassertedness"
16:45:30 <tl> q+
16:46:15 <tl> ... we need rdf:reifies AND rdf:states
16:46:45 <tl> ... it's not a hack. most things in the world are actually asserted. would like to have a 1.1 mapping from annotations to asserted facts
16:47:12 <ora> ack enrico
16:47:17 <tl> s/1.1 mapping/1:1 correspondance
16:47:48 <tl> enrico: we can model this from the baseline
16:48:05 <tl> .... tehre's not so much difference as to warrant anotehr predicate
16:48:19 <tl> ... also: wat does it mean to be asserted
16:48:42 <tl> ... a triple maa mean a wedding, a certificate, a xxx
16:48:55 <tl> ... for that we ahve different term identifiers
16:48:55 <Souri> q+
16:49:16 <tl> ... time dimension is more an extension
16:49:20 <ora> ack TallTed
16:49:57 <tl> TallTed: struggling to understand example (provides detail)
16:50:54 <ktk> q+
16:50:59 <ora> ack tl
16:51:06 <tl> ora: you make statements about statements. s can be asserted or not. those two things are imdependent
16:51:35 <AndyS> q+
16:52:16 <enrico> q+
16:52:49 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
16:54:14 <ora> ack Souri
16:54:40 <tl> Souri: (screen again)
16:55:08 <tl> ... reifies: is the only triple that has triple term as range
16:55:34 <tl> rdf:reifies is not some arbitrary property, the spec defines it
16:55:53 <tl> s/ reifies: is / rdf:reifies is
16:56:39 <fsasaki> q+
16:57:10 <tl> ... https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Aug/0077.html
16:57:26 <TallTed> q+
16:57:59 <tl> .... we need an association between triple and what we say about it
16:58:01 <ktk> q-
16:58:10 <tl> ... but this is different from reification
16:58:24 <TallTed> "reification" is *exactly* "associating an identifier"!
16:58:26 <fsasaki> q-
16:58:34 <tl> ... especially LPG and ??? need a 1:1 association
16:59:01 <eBremer> eBremer has joined #rdf-star
16:59:14 <doerthe> @tl (I write, as this meeting is about to end) your statement about asserting triples in the original RDF-star proposal is not entirely true as the semantics back then was defined through rdf-reification, if we have that, it is still possible to remove the asserted triple itself. So basically, we only had no shortcut for only reifing a triple
16:59:14 <doerthe> without asserting it, but that was always possible. (But you scribe, I should write a mail to not stress you)
16:59:55 <enrico> Announcement for tomorrow's Semantics TF: Discussion on the semantics of rdf:states, in comparison with LPG, relational DBs, and other use cases.
17:00:11 <enrico> q-
17:00:13 <gkellogg> This remindes me of the RISC vs CISC processor wars (reduced vs complex instruction sets).
17:00:15 <tl> ... rdf:states is not a hack, but a very important thing to have. I feel very strongy about it and would like to discuss this more
17:00:31 <TallTed> right, it's the *shortcut*, the *syntactic sugar* that we're adding. Being able to both assert and annotate in one "statement", rather than having to repeat what is being asserted in order to annotate it.
17:00:35 <tl> ora: out of time, suggest to pick this up at our earliest opportunity
17:00:46 <tl> enrico: will be on agenda for tomorrow
17:01:05 <tl> s/tomorrow/tomorrows semantics TF
17:01:27 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:01:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:02:08 <gkellogg> s/teh/the/g
17:02:16 <gkellogg> s/taht/that/g
17:02:44 <gkellogg> s/classic and triple terms/classic and full/
17:43:57 <ktk> s/would like to have a discusion/would like to have a discussion/
17:44:03 <ktk> s/soemone/someone/
17:44:12 <ktk> s/haarful/harmful/
17:44:16 <ktk> s/someties/sometimes/
17:44:19 <ktk> s/reifing/reifying/
17:44:30 <ktk> s/wat/what/
17:44:34 <ktk> s/anotehr/another/
17:44:42 <ktk> s/aaand.../and.../
17:44:46 <ktk> s/isthe/is the/
17:44:49 <ktk> s/correspondance/correspondence/
17:44:57 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:44:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/15-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
17:46:51 <ktk> s/looking fr/looking for/
17:49:43 <ktk> s/have a discussion about profiles/let's explore and clarify the use of profiles/
17:50:59 <ktk> s/if someone says that this blows up RDF or implementions or etc, then happy tp discuss/if someone suggests this might disrupt RDF, implementations, or similar, then I'm happy to discuss/
17:53:08 <ktk> s/that i'd like to/that I would like to/
17:55:00 <ktk> s/grammer/grammar/
17:56:56 <ktk> s/explains example how/explains an example where/
17:57:16 <ktk> s/being in different working companies/is associated with different companies/
17:57:22 <ktk> s/annoatted with different times/annotated with different time periods/
17:57:41 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:58:23 <ktk> s/maa/may/
17:58:32 <ktk> s/ahve/have/
17:58:53 <ktk> s/imdependent/independent/
17:59:44 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:59:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/15-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
18:01:09 <ktk> s/rdf: /tl: /
18:01:13 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:01:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/15-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
18:01:50 <ktk> RRSAgent, leave
18:01:50 <RRSAgent> I see no action items