14:52:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #maturity
14:52:16 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-maturity-irc
14:52:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:52:18 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Fazio
14:52:37 <Fazio> meeting: Maturity Model Task Force
14:52:55 <Fazio> chair: Fazio
14:54:05 <Fazio> Agenda+ New Business
14:54:05 <Fazio> Agenda+ WAI Group Note Messaging review
14:54:05 <Fazio> Agenda+ GitHub Issue #98 'Stages' or 'levels'?
14:54:05 <Fazio> Agenda+ GitHub Issue #112 Proposing adjusted structure for Outcomes, Proof Points, and Stages (back to previous proposal!)
14:54:05 <gb> /issues/112 -> #112
14:54:05 <gb> /issues/98 -> #98
14:54:07 <Fazio> Agenda+ GitHub Issue #118 Knowledge and Skills - Proof Point Updates
14:54:07 <gb> /issues/118 -> #118
14:58:40 <Fazio> present+
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14:59:31 <Dr_Keith> present+
14:59:32 <janina> janina has joined #maturity
15:01:22 <AngelaBarker> AngelaBarker has joined #maturity
15:01:28 <AngelaBarker> present+
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15:05:02 <Mark_Miller> Present +
15:05:16 <Fazio> zakim, pick a victim
15:05:16 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AngelaBarker
15:06:23 <AngelaBarker> scribe+
15:06:49 <Fazio> zakim, next item
15:06:49 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- New Business -- taken up [from Fazio]
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15:07:40 <jlkline> present+
15:07:48 <AngelaBarker> No new business
15:08:01 <Fazio> zakim, close item
15:08:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', Fazio
15:08:20 <Fazio> zakim, close this item
15:08:20 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
15:08:21 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:08:21 <Zakim> 2. WAI Group Note Messaging review [from Fazio]
15:08:30 <Fazio> zakim, next item
15:08:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- WAI Group Note Messaging review -- taken up [from Fazio]
15:08:45 <janina> q+
15:09:56 <AngelaBarker> David - Janina stressed the importance of coming up with a message on a previous call. She provided a template from Shawn Henry, lead for WAI. David offered to do copy editing, revising it to address our work. Now reviewing comments.
15:10:29 <AngelaBarker> David - I am going to review all of the edits
15:10:45 <Fazio> ack janina
15:11:42 <AngelaBarker> Janina - the more places we have people comment, the better
15:11:42 <janina> ack janina
15:12:26 <AngelaBarker> Janina - this message is not a legally binding committment
15:14:07 <AngelaBarker> David - we are still working through GitHub issues, and republishing as we go. But we want to get the message out. It may change slightly after a review of the ISO document. After a quick review, the ISO document looks very policy oriented and granular. We're more structured and provide a framework, so we may be complimentary.
15:14:11 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - what is the ISO number?
15:14:29 <AngelaBarker> David - it's in the GitHub, 3071-2019
15:14:59 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - that was based on british standard 8878, turned into an ISO standard
15:15:16 <AngelaBarker> David - Shaun Henry is very interested in this, we need to review
15:15:38 <AngelaBarker> Janina - we need to have a short answer on why we are publishing a maturity model, and why it's different than others
15:16:03 <AngelaBarker> David - we won't dive into it right now, but need to get this message out of the way so we're ready to go
15:16:18 <janina> q?
15:16:21 <Fazio> q?
15:16:26 <AngelaBarker> David - reviewing Jeff's feedback from email
15:16:43 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - people may provide a different level of feedback or comments if they knew other iterations are coming
15:17:47 <AngelaBarker> Janina - we've gone through a lot of GitHub issues previously, if this isn't the final, it's close. If we don't have any sense of coming to a published conclusion, I'm not sure what we're doing here. There may be a 1.1 or 1.2, etc. some day. What are we going to do to get this working in the world, as a published state as 1.0.
15:18:10 <AngelaBarker> David - this is first publication, this is a natural process and will all work out
15:18:50 <AngelaBarker> David - reviewing comments from Jeff's email, I do use a lot of descriptors but I'm fine making it shorter.
15:19:55 <AngelaBarker> David - editing on the fly
15:20:23 <AngelaBarker> Janina - this is hard for me to follow
15:20:33 <AngelaBarker> David - I will read original
15:20:38 <AngelaBarker> Janina - add in Jeff's edits
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15:22:01 <AngelaBarker> David - reading original and Jeff's edits
15:22:22 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - there were too many descriptors in that one long sentence. Do we need to put all that stuff in there? We aren't trying to be too detailed in covering this
15:23:15 <AngelaBarker> Janina - this is not worth the time we're putting into it. Either version is a good one. It will be edited by Shawn. Let's limit the time we spend on this. Let's focus on closing GitHub issues.
15:23:26 <AngelaBarker> David - then we'll make one version and propose it to the group.
15:23:34 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - I thought Dr. Keith's version was good as well
15:23:40 <AngelaBarker> Dr Keith - I agree
15:24:17 <AngelaBarker> David - I'll create two versions, and we'll figure out which one we want to send to Shawn. I hope to have the ISO document reviewed and commented on by then
15:24:38 <AngelaBarker> David - we will vote on the two versions
15:24:59 <AngelaBarker> zakim, next item
15:24:59 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- GitHub Issue #98 'Stages' or 'levels'? -- taken up [from Fazio]
15:24:59 <gb> /issues/98 -> #98
15:25:06 <Dr_Keith> have to drop.  See you next week!
15:25:36 <AngelaBarker> David - we started this last week and didn't have time to finish it.
15:26:11 <AngelaBarker> David - this is referring to stages or levels. We are toggling back and forth between the two in the document. Some were good with levels but we didn't come to a decision.
15:26:18 <Fazio> https://github.com/w3c/maturity-model/issues/98
15:26:19 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/maturity-model/issues/98 -> Issue 98 'Stages' or 'levels'? (by jake-abma)
15:27:12 <AngelaBarker> David - Jeff mentioned a lot of other teams use the term "levels"
15:27:19 <AngelaBarker> Janina - if there is common practice, that's worth adopting
15:27:22 <Fazio> Levels?
15:27:40 <AngelaBarker> Mark - I made the comment about levels, I propose we update the document to anything that refers to stage to level
15:30:07 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - "being in stage 3 cancer" is a bunch of characteristics go together
15:30:17 <AngelaBarker> Janina - this isn't cancer, what do other maturity models do?
15:32:00 <AngelaBarker> David - we may not get to resolve this one on the call
15:32:20 <AngelaBarker> Janina - you asked the right question, are we meaning different things with the same words
15:32:37 <AngelaBarker> David - reading through the document to compare stages v. level introduction and usage
15:33:12 <AngelaBarker> Janina - a stage with multiple levels gets you to a stage, this is not accurate if my understanding is right
15:33:22 <AngelaBarker> Mark - we're just interchanging the terms throughout the document
15:33:33 <AngelaBarker> Janina - this happens in creative writing
15:34:00 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - there is 23 matches for "stage" and 65 matches for "level"
15:34:26 <Fazio> Maturity stages, with definitions and expected outcomes to help organizations assess and report on the level of accessibility maturity attained for the dimension. The maturity stages indicate what is needed to reach full maturity for that dimension.
15:35:14 <AngelaBarker> Mark - we're mixing two different thoughts and activities, 1 - what are we calling four different levels you can progress through, 2 - there may be places we do want to use stage vs. level. Do we need to worry about if we are not referring to a "change in level" as what's described by this maturity model. Do we need to worry about which one of the
15:35:14 <AngelaBarker> two words we're using?
15:35:38 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - we used some terms previously we didn't like
15:36:32 <AngelaBarker> David - let's move forward on stage v. level; maturity stage and maturity level are the same thing; one is the other
15:36:46 <AngelaBarker> David - stage and level both have definition of outcomes, we use them interchangably
15:36:54 <AngelaBarker> Janina - then we need to name them the same thing
15:38:55 <AngelaBarker> Janina - what does the rest of the document say?
15:39:25 <AngelaBarker> David - reading through document; whichever term we use, this section still won't make a lot of sense (beginning defining section of the doc)
15:40:34 <AngelaBarker> David and Janina - discussing introduction of terms in the document
15:40:42 <AngelaBarker> David - I suggest we take out the first sentence
15:41:04 <AngelaBarker> Mark - Janina is asking what are we calling X, David is trying to reword the character, we need to define our activity rightnow
15:42:00 <AngelaBarker> David - we can fix this by saying "maturity stages" or "maturity levels" are defined as outcomes for that dimension
15:42:21 <AngelaBarker> David - first sentence is problematic because you can't state it without both words
15:42:34 <AngelaBarker> Janina - we're defining a taxinomical term
15:43:51 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - proposing an edit to get rid of the word level within the starting sentence
15:44:06 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - use "report progress" instead of level
15:44:32 <AngelaBarker> Janina - instead of progress, this is a status assessment
15:44:34 <AngelaBarker> David - agreed
15:45:23 <AngelaBarker> David - leaving in the word stage...rereads the sentence
15:45:41 <Fazio> Maturity stages, with definitions and expected outcomes to help organizations assess and report on the status of accessibility maturity attained for the dimension. The maturity stages indicate what is needed to reach full maturity for that dimension.
15:46:14 <Fazio> Maturity stages, with definitions and expected outcomes to help organizations assess and report on the level of accessibility maturity attained for the dimension. The maturity stages indicate what is needed to reach full maturity for that dimension.
15:46:59 <Fazio> Maturity level, with definitions and expected outcomes to help organizations assess and report on the status of accessibility maturity attained for the dimension. The maturity stages indicate what is needed to reach full maturity for that dimension.
15:48:08 <Fazio> Maturity level, with definitions and expected outcomes to help organizations assess and report on the status of accessibility maturity attained for the dimension. The maturity level indicate what is needed to reach full maturity for that dimension.
15:48:53 <Mark_Miller> Level
15:48:56 <NehaJ> level
15:49:21 <AngelaBarker> level
15:49:21 <Fazio> level
15:49:57 <janina> +level
15:50:39 <AngelaBarker> Janina - we're in the red zone for time
15:50:50 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - I volunteer to replace the word in the excel assessment tool
15:51:08 <AngelaBarker> David - I will work on getting this done in GitHub
15:51:29 <AngelaBarker> David - we will reword bullet #2 in maturity model structure
15:51:37 <gb> /issues/2 -> #2
15:51:54 <AngelaBarker> David - all for today, we are down to 23 issues
15:52:52 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - we have State of Texas DIR and several agencies are going to do an assessment using our maturity model, we'll be able to get some good data points on the use and the worksheet. Within the next couple months we should have input on that.
15:53:01 <AngelaBarker> David - if we could get public comment, that would be super helpful
15:53:16 <AngelaBarker> Jeff - if there are things, they can put it into GibHub
15:53:29 <AngelaBarker> David - might be some legal hoops to get a comment, but would be great to get one
15:53:52 <AngelaBarker> zakim, end meeting
15:53:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Fazio, Dr_Keith, AngelaBarker, jlkline, level
15:53:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:53:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-maturity-minutes.html Zakim
15:54:04 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, AngelaBarker; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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