12:58:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:58:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-matf-irc
12:58:48 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:58:49 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:58:51 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF August 14, 2024
12:58:52 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:58:59 <JJ> Meeting: MATF August 14, 2024
12:59:02 <quintinb> present+
12:59:16 <JJ> regrets+ AlainVagner
12:59:18 <Joe_Humbert> present+
12:59:39 <JJ> regrets+ AudreyManiez
13:00:17 <Illai> Illai has joined #matf
13:00:49 <JJ> agenda+ Discuss remaining Success Criteria of breakdown
13:02:57 <GleidsonRamos> GleidsonRamos has joined #matf
13:03:48 <Mick> Mick has joined #MATF
13:03:52 <JJ> agenda+ 2.3.1 Three Flashes or Below Threshold
13:03:59 <Mick> +present
13:04:01 <Karla> Karla has joined #matf
13:04:02 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.3 Focus Order
13:04:10 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.4 Link Purpose (In Context)
13:04:17 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.6 Headings and Labels
13:04:20 <JJ> agenda?
13:04:21 <Carolina> Carolina has joined #MATF
13:04:29 <Carolina> present+
13:04:36 <Aashutosh> Aashutosh has joined #matf
13:04:43 <Aashutosh> present+
13:04:46 <Karla> present+
13:05:09 <Illai> present+
13:05:26 <Devanshu> Devanshu has joined #matf
13:05:46 <quintinb> Thanks @Aashutosh
13:05:50 <JJ> Scribe: Aashutosh
13:05:58 <Devanshu> present+
13:06:17 <quintinb> I have a hard stop on the hour, apologies if I have to drop
13:06:43 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
13:06:47 <julianmka> present+
13:08:00 <Aashutosh> JJ shared the 9 SC that are potentially not applicable
13:08:03 <Aashutosh> q+
13:09:16 <quintinb> Jetpack compose has lost the ability to do a "labelFor" with the loss of id's :(
13:09:48 <Mick> q+
13:09:55 <Mick> present+
13:10:30 <JJ> ack Aashutosh
13:10:47 <quintinb> q+
13:11:18 <julianmka> q+
13:11:25 <JJ> ack Mick
13:11:30 <Aashutosh> Aashutosh shared views about the first 3 being applicable
13:11:30 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:11:32 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Discuss remaining Success Criteria of breakdown -- taken up [from JJ]
13:11:32 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:11:59 <Aashutosh> Mick says need more discussion for 'potentially not applicable'. There is a lot of debate
13:12:14 <quintinb> q-
13:12:19 <quintinb> As long as we come back to this one
13:12:21 <quintinb> I think the goal of this SC is that forms are clear, and that relevant information is not lost when elements are focused - e.g. using a hint as a label
13:12:47 <JJ> q?
13:12:52 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:13:21 <Joe_Humbert> +1 to julian's comments about text spacing
13:13:26 <Joe_Humbert> q-
13:13:35 <Aashutosh> julianmka shared that the Text spacing will not be applicable since the apps are designed to respect user settings
13:13:57 <Aashutosh> julianmka agreed to have more discussion on 1.3.5
13:14:06 <JJ> Move 1.3.5 to Large Variations?
13:14:16 <julianmka> +1
13:14:17 <Aashutosh> +1
13:14:18 <Joe_Humbert> +1
13:14:19 <Karla> +1
13:14:22 <Mick> Leave in Potentially not applicable
13:14:23 <Illai> +1
13:14:27 <Devanshu> +1
13:14:56 <quintinb> +1
13:15:07 <Aashutosh> @JJ moved the 1.3.5 to large variations category based on the Votes
13:15:12 <JJ> ACTION: Move 1.3.5 to Large
13:15:50 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:16:36 <quintinb> This is scrolling in 2 dimensions at the same time, correct?
13:16:47 <Aashutosh> JJ we need to define clear ways on how to test 1.4.10
13:16:58 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:17:57 <julianmka> +1 to Joe's point
13:17:58 <Mick> +1 Joe
13:18:05 <quintinb> +1 to not specifying a specific resolution
13:18:26 <Illai> +1 Joe
13:18:42 <quintinb> the resolution shouldn't matter
13:18:43 <Aashutosh> Aashutosh has joined #matf
13:19:01 <Aashutosh> Joe_Humbert we can't do much about the resolution. how can we define the generally applicable resolutions with variable sizes in Android
13:19:20 <quintinb> Perhaps we can just make the scrolling style more clear - because scrolling in 2 mutually exclusive directions does work fine - e.g. streaming services
13:19:44 <julianmka> +1 to quintin's comment ^^
13:19:55 <quintinb> +1 to medium
13:20:05 <Carolina> medium
13:20:06 <Mick> I'd say at least medium.
13:20:14 <Joe_Humbert> +1 medium
13:20:19 <Illai> large
13:20:22 <Karla> large
13:20:27 <julianmka> +1 medium
13:20:40 <Mick> large
13:21:13 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:21:33 <JJ> ACTION: Move 1.4.10 to Medium
13:22:44 <Illai> Maybe we should aim for a minimum spacing that is legible?
13:23:02 <AAK> AAK has joined #matf
13:23:04 <quintinb> Is it feasible that OEM's could add this?
13:23:05 <Jamie> present+
13:23:20 <quintinb> +1 Illai
13:23:42 <quintinb> Samsung is known for being sneaky about this kind of thing
13:23:55 <quintinb> "Sneaky" accessibility
13:24:01 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:24:05 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:24:40 <quintinb> Yeah you could compile your own Android OS....
13:24:47 <AAK> Joe_Humbert This is achievable on Samsung since they allow custom font to be used as system.
13:24:49 <JJ> JJ has joined #matf
13:25:05 <AAK> Joe_Humbert users can use the font with larger line height
13:25:06 <JJ> q?
13:25:17 <quintinb> I would advocate for respecting the system setting as a bare minimum
13:25:25 <julianmka> +1 to quintin
13:25:31 <Joe_Humbert> +1
13:25:36 <julianmka> q+
13:25:44 <Illai> > +1 to quintin
13:26:11 <quintinb> What are the tools for testing mobile line height? Grab a ruler?
13:26:16 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:26:17 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:26:43 <AAK> julianmka : what do we think about Google's non linear scaling?
13:27:10 <quintinb> +1 julianmka
13:27:17 <Jamie> q+
13:27:20 <quintinb> I think we need to define a minimum font size
13:27:34 <AAK> julianmka could variable font sizes affect the line heights?
13:28:05 <quintinb> (joke) It's only 20% of the population julianmka...
13:28:13 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:28:38 <Mick> Mick has joined #MATF
13:29:08 <Mick> present+
13:29:10 <julianmka> +100 Joe re: honoring system settings
13:29:12 <AAK> Joe_Humbert Apple has non linear scaling too. Google seems to following apple.
13:29:25 <quintinb> q+
13:29:44 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:29:51 <AAK> Joe_Humbert suggests that we add  "respect the user settings" as a global guidelines.
13:31:18 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:31:19 <quintinb> what if we specified a minimum size (in pixels) and used that as a baseline - then all the dynamic stuff doesn't matter
13:31:21 <julianmka> Google Developers blog post about font scaling and default use of non-linear scaling in Android 14: https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2023/02/first-developer-preview-android14.html
13:31:39 <Joe_Humbert> thankx julianmka
13:31:53 <julianmka> q+
13:31:55 <Jamie> q+
13:32:02 <AAK> quintinb what if we specify minimum font sizes in Pixels?
13:32:07 <AAK> q+
13:32:15 <julianmka> q-
13:32:48 <Jamie> q-
13:32:53 <julianmka> Are we diverging too far from the intent on the text spacing SC?
13:32:59 <AAK> JJ the guidance needs to be futureproof
13:33:26 <AAK> q-
13:33:44 <Jamie> +1 julianmka
13:33:45 <JJ> 1.4.12 Text Spacing: Small, Medium or Large variation? Or Not Applicable?
13:33:51 <Mick> Not Applicable
13:34:03 <quintinb> Large
13:34:06 <Jamie> large or not applicable
13:34:08 <Joe_Humbert> not applicable (currently)
13:34:11 <julianmka> Not applicable
13:34:13 <Illai> Large
13:34:26 <Carolina> not applicable
13:34:27 <Karla> Not applicable
13:34:36 <AAK> Large
13:35:17 <Jamie> not applicable in our first version
13:35:44 <JJ> ACTION: Keep 1.4.12 at Not Applicable, but consider future system settings
13:36:23 <quintinb> I think you can use a mouse on Android
13:36:33 <Jamie> you can use a mouse on both OS
13:36:37 <Joe_Humbert> +1 to quintin
13:36:46 <AAK> +1 to quintinb
13:36:46 <quintinb> Absolutely
13:36:51 <AAK> I use that!
13:36:56 <Jamie> i know, that was a statement
13:37:15 <Jamie> ;)
13:37:33 <Jamie> +1 to AAK
13:38:07 <Carolina> I think it needs to be consider too
13:38:10 <quintinb> Yeah and hover-based context changes are definitely possible - so we need the SC
13:38:17 <Jamie> q+
13:38:18 <Joe_Humbert> small
13:38:31 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:38:31 <quintinb> +1 Joe_Humbert small
13:38:32 <Carolina> yup quintinb
13:38:40 <Carolina> small
13:39:09 <AAK> Jamie how would we address the mirroring feature? where the phone can be used on a mac
13:39:19 <AAK> Jamie how would we test for that?
13:40:30 <quintinb> Apple's mirroring has limited keyboard
13:40:47 <JJ> 1.4.13 Content on Hover of Focus: Small, Medium or Large variation? Or Not Applicable?
13:40:50 <Joe_Humbert> using keyboard and mouse with mirroring has been somewhat possible for a while with both OS and third party software
13:40:55 <AAK> JJ we need to investigate if the mirroring uses touch events or click events
13:40:56 <Joe_Humbert> Small
13:40:58 <quintinb> Small
13:41:03 <AAK> Small
13:41:05 <GleidsonRamos> small
13:41:07 <julianmka> small
13:41:07 <Karla> small
13:41:08 <Jamie> small
13:41:15 <Illai> Small
13:41:23 <JJ> ACTION: Move 1.4.13 to Small
13:41:34 <Jamie> also add to the User Agent issue
13:42:24 <quintinb> `GUI + /` on Android lists the shortcuts, and developers have access to this menu
13:42:40 <Mick> q+
13:42:41 <quintinb> (they can add to it, and should)
13:42:45 <JJ> ack Mick
13:43:19 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:43:40 <julianmka> +1 keyboard shortcuts must be listed in OS helpers
13:43:52 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:43:59 <julianmka> (or some other easy to find place in UI)
13:44:09 <quintinb> +1 keyboard shortcuts must be listed in OS helpers (thanks julianmka)
13:44:27 <Aashutosh> Aashutosh has joined #matf
13:45:07 <Aashutosh> JJ the goal should be avoid unintended actions
13:45:13 <Jamie> q+
13:45:24 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:46:02 <Aashutosh> Jamie follow up to Joe_Humbert . People can add shortcuts to keyboard.
13:47:09 <Aashutosh> Jamie how do we communicate we are testing the conflict of keyboard shortcuts?
13:47:11 <quintinb> If there are key shortcuts (which developers can and should add) they can also get them registered for discover on the help menu (a separate element of code)
13:47:48 <julianmka> Would be nice if the OSes automatically included any assigned shortcuts in the helper menus instead of devs having to do that manually.
13:48:15 <JJ> 2.1.4 Character Key Shortcuts: Small, Medium or Large variation? Or Not Applicable?
13:48:22 <quintinb> Medium
13:48:22 <Mick> Large
13:48:24 <Jamie> small
13:48:38 <Aashutosh> large
13:48:42 <Joe_Humbert> small
13:48:43 <Illai> Small
13:48:44 <julianmka> small/medium
13:48:50 <Karla> medium
13:49:03 <Carolina> small
13:49:06 <Jamie> can we create a new category of "come back to this later"?
13:49:17 <GleidsonRamos> medium
13:49:46 <quintinb> julianmka the registration allows developers to describe the action with a label, which may also help voice control users (not sure on that though)
13:49:52 <JJ> ACTION: Move 2.1.4 to Small
13:51:18 <JJ> 2.4.2 Page Titled: Large variation?
13:51:31 <Jamie> large from WCAG2ICT
13:51:35 <julianmka> +1
13:51:35 <Mick> +1
13:51:39 <Illai> +1
13:51:39 <Joe_Humbert> +1
13:51:41 <Karla> +1
13:51:52 <quintinb> +1
13:51:53 <Aashutosh> +1
13:52:05 <JJ> ACTION: Move 2.4.2 to Large (compared to WCAG2ICT)
13:53:44 <Jamie> 3.1.1 see Note 1
13:53:46 <Aashutosh> Should fall under the large bucket "respect user settings" imo
13:54:32 <julianmka> +1 Aashutosh
13:55:06 <Aashutosh> JJ we still need to test if it is supported
13:55:10 <JJ> 3.1.1 Language of Page: Small, Medium or Large variation? Or Not Applicable?
13:55:27 <Carolina> medium
13:55:30 <Illai> Small
13:55:30 <Jamie> small in relation to WCAG2ict
13:55:34 <Karla> small
13:55:36 <quintinb> Small
13:55:40 <Mick> Medium
13:55:42 <Aashutosh> Small
13:55:49 <Joe_Humbert> small
13:55:51 <julianmka> small
13:56:04 <JJ> ACTION: Move 3.1.1 to Small
13:56:36 <Aashutosh> Joe_Humbert that was my exact question! :D
13:57:13 <Jamie> 3.1.2 also use Note 1
13:58:07 <JJ> 3.1.2 Language of Page: Small, Medium or Large variation? Or Not Applicable?
13:58:21 <Joe_Humbert> small
13:58:22 <Jamie> in my company we use a scree reader foe the technique
13:58:24 <Jamie> small
13:58:28 <julianmka> small
13:58:30 <Karla> small
13:58:30 <quintinb> small
13:58:33 <Illai> small
13:58:49 <JJ> JJ has joined #matf
13:59:05 <JJ> ACTION: Move 3.1.2 to Small
13:59:48 <quintinb> Android views was xml, lol
13:59:54 <Jamie> not applicable
13:59:58 <Mick> Not appliable
13:59:59 <julianmka> not applicable
14:00:02 <Illai> N/A
14:00:04 <JJ> Keep 4.1.1 at N/A?
14:00:07 <Joe_Humbert> not applicable
14:00:08 <Carolina> not applicable
14:00:13 <Karla> +1
14:00:31 <quintinb> +1 but it should be actually not applicable, not even potentially
14:01:48 <Jamie> q+
14:02:25 <Jamie> q-
14:02:43 <Aashutosh> Aashutosh has left #matf
14:03:19 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:03:19 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been quintinb, Joe_Humbert, present, Carolina, Aashutosh, Karla, Illai, Devanshu, julianmka, Mick, Jamie
14:03:30 <JJ> present+
14:03:41 <JJ> present+ GleidsonRamos
14:04:19 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:04:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been quintinb, Joe_Humbert, present, Carolina, Aashutosh, Karla, Illai, Devanshu, julianmka, Mick, Jamie, JJ, GleidsonRamos
14:04:25 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:05:38 <JJ> rsagent, bye
14:05:44 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:05:44 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-matf-actions.rdf :
14:05:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Move 1.3.5 to Large [1]
14:05:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-matf-irc#T13-15-12
14:05:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Move 1.4.10 to Medium [2]
14:05:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-matf-irc#T13-21-33
14:05:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Keep 1.4.12 at Not Applicable, but consider future system settings [3]
14:05:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-matf-irc#T13-35-44
14:05:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Move 1.4.13 to Small [4]
14:05:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-matf-irc#T13-41-23
14:05:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Move 2.1.4 to Small [5]
14:05:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-matf-irc#T13-49-52
14:05:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Move 2.4.2 to Large (compared to WCAG2ICT) [6]
14:05:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-matf-irc#T13-52-05
14:05:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Move 3.1.1 to Small [7]
14:05:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-matf-irc#T13-56-04
14:05:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Move 3.1.2 to Small [8]
14:05:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/08/14-matf-irc#T13-59-05