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14:32:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:32:27 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:32:34 <Chuck> chair:  Chuck
14:32:42 <Chuck> meeting:  AGWG-2024-08-13
14:32:55 <Chuck> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:32:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/13-ag-minutes.html Chuck
14:33:13 <Chuck> agenda+ Assertions Exercise (60 minutes)
14:33:23 <Chuck> agenda+ Accessibility supported / Prerequisite level
14:33:30 <Chuck> scribe+
14:33:35 <Chuck> scribe+ Chuck
14:34:41 <Chuck> Chuck:  As the first exercise of this meeting will be to participate in breakout rooms for a group exercise (first agenda item), this portion of the meeting will not be scribed.
14:49:41 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pZU_JxLwwpTotEmoGjGTEd2bn3kOoUwX-RO7q76Cmfo/edit
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15:02:38 <Chuck> Chuck: As the first exercise of this meeting will be to participate in breakout rooms for a group exercise (first agenda item), this portion of the meeting will not be scribed.
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15:03:11 <Chuck> Rachael:  CSUN submissions will open soon.  Start thinking about presentations.
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15:03:15 <jaunita_george> Present+
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15:03:41 <Chuck> Tananda:  New to the group.
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15:04:05 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 1
15:04:05 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Assertions Exercise (60 minutes) -- taken up [from Chuck]
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15:04:13 <Chuck> Chuck: As the first exercise of this meeting will be to participate in breakout rooms for a group exercise (first agenda item), this portion of the meeting will not be scribed.
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15:05:02 <Detlev> q+
15:05:06 <AlinaV> present+
15:05:08 <Detlev> q-
15:05:13 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FA3UVwpLlkFD9H6rqKT57BGtpPFy_4juMlkxNGl7m5Y/edit#heading=h.ydb0ppi9970j
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15:10:44 <Laura_Carlson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:10:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/13-ag-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
15:11:05 <Laura_Carlson> rrsagent, make minutes
15:11:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/13-ag-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
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15:16:50 <bruce_bailey> present+
15:16:55 <bruce_bailey> zakim, agenda
15:16:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agenda', bruce_bailey
15:16:59 <bruce_bailey> zakim, agenda?
15:16:59 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
15:17:00 <Zakim> 1. Assertions Exercise (60 minutes) [from Chuck]
15:17:00 <Zakim> 2. Accessibility supported / Prerequisite level [from Chuck]
15:20:43 <kirkwood> +1
15:21:23 <kirkwood> public assertions often an issue
15:26:37 <kirkwood> +1
15:27:44 <kirkwood> legal manages risk
15:30:23 <kirkwood> a style guide that addresses accessibility?
15:46:17 <dj> scribe+
15:46:24 <dan_bjorge> present+
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15:46:49 <dj> Chuck: reviewing what we came up with in brakeout rooms
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15:47:38 <dj> alastairc: "there is an organizational style guide that requires text-alternatives, and a policy that authors must follow this style guide"
15:47:53 <dj> ... maybe quite a lot of WCAG could have this type of assertion?
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15:48:46 <dj> ... documentation: link/PDF of style guide & link/PDF of policy
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15:49:26 <dj> ... testing: internal audit -> ability to make assertion
15:50:59 <dj> Chuck: couple of different evolutions of assertion
15:51:46 <dj> ... didn't want to just focus on style guide -- also training, etc
15:51:49 <bruce_bailey> +1 to statement of fact rather than statement of policy
15:52:10 <dj> ... mostly focused on style guide for purpose of document
15:52:59 <dj> ... we presumed the assertion was company-wide, not product-specific
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15:53:32 <dj> ... include some kind of statement in every published document?
15:53:53 <jeanne> present+
15:54:17 <dj> ... WCAG 3 suggested assertion template?
15:54:45 <dj> ... align with maturity model WG?
15:55:22 <dj> Rachael: how to enforce assertions?
15:55:34 <dj> ... public? private sign off? actually point to style guide?
15:56:01 <Chuck> q?
15:56:06 <dj> ... "internal guidance" instead of "style guide"
15:56:21 <dj> ... would like job title / group of asserter in assertion
15:56:25 <dj> ... when was last audit?
15:56:27 <alastairc> Probably a good idea to generalise the 'style guide'
15:56:30 <dj> ... who is trained on style guide?
15:56:37 <dj> ... how is style guide tested?
15:57:04 <Chuck> q+
15:58:03 <dj> ack Chuck
15:58:27 <dj> Chuck: irc chat about using statement of fact over statement of process
15:58:31 <bruce_bailey> q+ to offer example from M-24-08
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15:58:36 <scott> present+
15:58:40 <dj> ... our group went more in direction of statement of process
15:58:41 <Rachael> "We assert that [company] maintains internal guidance (style guide, design system, other documentation) and trains employees on how to use this guidance to ensure images have text alternatives that are clear and relevant"
15:58:46 <alastairc> present+
15:58:47 <dj> ... longer discussion needed
15:58:52 <Chuck> ack bruce
15:58:52 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to offer example from M-24-08
15:59:17 <bruce_bailey> https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/management/ofcio/m-24-08-strengthening-digital-accessibility-and-the-management-of-section-508-of-the-rehabilitation-act/#_ftnref15
15:59:46 <bruce_bailey> M-24-08 requirements for Accessibility Statements
16:00:03 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
16:00:03 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Accessibility supported / Prerequisite level -- taken up [from Chuck]
16:00:19 <Chuck> Proposal in Github discussion:  https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/104#discussioncomment-10313498
16:01:12 <Rachael> Assertions Slide Deck: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/178EHzR7oKYyS7m-V2pZvjCg10kR2XLZ7tK2V-LUh2K8/edit#slide=id.g2ef7be0147b_0_0
16:01:38 <dj> alastairc: [reads top issue]
16:01:52 <Rachael> Conformance Slide deck on prerequisites: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17VJvnm5UQW4WUzIoo9QNPVGfePgaZa8ifZWs-wtmv7E/edit#slide=id.g2f0d7d2c60e_0_0
16:02:46 <dj> ... most basic level is user agent things, baseline level is where that doesn't work and authors do things
16:03:39 <dj> ... [reads "I'd like to summaries the challenges..." from alastc]
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16:06:01 <dj> ... [reads "Prerequisite" section of next comment]
16:06:52 <dj> ... it gets more interesting when you get more variability across ATs and regions [reads "Baseline" section]
16:10:02 <Chuck> q+
16:10:05 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:10:09 <dj> Rachael: slide >=42 is relevant
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16:10:42 <Graham> present+
16:11:03 <alastairc> q+
16:11:03 <dj> Chuck: free vs commercial AT?
16:11:09 <Chuck> ack ala
16:11:44 <dj> alastairc: point of the proposal was to say that we as a group have a set of things we test with and you know tick of methods with those technologies
16:11:53 <jeanne> Some AT is not available in free versions.  I don't want us to be too focused on screenreaders.
16:11:59 <bruce_bailey> q+ to note that, e.g., Voice Over is not "free"
16:12:05 <Chuck> ack bruce
16:12:05 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to note that, e.g., Voice Over is not "free"
16:12:08 <dj> ... as an author, you just follow the methods provided and then you meet the spec
16:12:15 <dj> ... as you go up levels, you'd need to test
16:12:16 <Chuck> q+ to echo Jeanne's comments in IRC
16:12:35 <alastairc> Computers and phones are not really free either... nothing is, but there isn't an extra cost if you have a disability
16:12:38 <Rachael> q+ to ask how we clarify that
16:12:46 <dj> bruce_bailey: Voice Over is not free (gratis)
16:12:48 <GreggVan> q+
16:12:58 <Chuck> ack ch
16:12:58 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to echo Jeanne's comments in IRC
16:13:02 <Chuck> ack Rach
16:13:02 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to ask how we clarify that
16:13:11 <kirkwood> proprietary?
16:13:16 <dj> Rachael: maybe "included in price of platform"?
16:14:07 <Chuck> ack Gregg
16:14:16 <dj> ... also how do we say which screen readers are high enough quality?
16:15:01 <Ben_Tillyer1> q+
16:16:00 <dj> GreggVan: we need to look at a broader range of AT available
16:16:20 <dj> ... also "basically free" in US could be horribly expensive in other parts of the world
16:16:29 <Chuck> ack Ben
16:17:00 <dj> Ben_Tillyer1: battery drains quicker on phone with voice control on than off, so there are indirect costs as well
16:17:07 <kirkwood> can’t understand
16:17:24 <Ben_Tillyer1> noted, must be using the wrong mic
16:18:26 <Chuck> q?
16:18:40 <dj> ... direct costs (price) vs indirect costs (power, data, etc)
16:19:06 <dj> Chuck: mentioning names of companies/products directly vs being more ambiguous?
16:19:28 <dj> alastairc: leave to others what the set of required technology would be
16:19:40 <dj> ... UK, for example, requires public sector to test specific ATs
16:20:44 <dj> ... reader view may not work for users, for example, if text is being protected so it can't be used
16:20:57 <dj> ... but you could still meet the guideline by providing that yourself
16:21:50 <Chuck> q+
16:21:53 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:22:00 <dj> ... prereq of motion would be "you respect users' motion preferences", but if you don't, or if you're using a platform that doesn't support that, you'd need a button to set that
16:23:23 <dj> Chuck: as time goes on, the burden will shift from the author to UA/platform as technology progresses
16:25:22 <Rachael> q+ to ask who takes responsibility
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16:25:43 <Chuck> q?
16:25:46 <Chuck> ack Rach
16:25:46 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to ask who takes responsibility
16:25:50 <dj> alastairc: technique would be you pass if you use browser default focus indicator, but you need to check when you change background
16:26:10 <dj> Rachael: segregate by language? (ex: does this technology support this language group?)
16:26:27 <Chuck> q+
16:26:29 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:26:29 <dj> ... is it the author's responsibility to know whether the AT works, or the W3C's?
16:26:39 <dj> ... in some ways, that's what we did with 4.1.1
16:26:44 <Rachael> q+
16:27:04 <bruce_bailey> I really appreciate the focus appearance example.
16:27:05 <dj> Chuck: if we were to take that on and be the definitive source for that, that requires additional work for our group
16:27:06 <Chuck> ack Rach
16:27:16 <dj> ... there's also value in us owning that, but work to
16:27:32 <Chuck> q?
16:27:49 <dj> Rachael: we implicitly own that right now --- we don't create standards for stuff that doesn't work, and we deprecated 4.1.1
16:27:59 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/104#discussioncomment-10313498
16:28:05 <Rachael> +1 not a decision point yet
16:28:09 <bruce_bailey> +1 to Rachael that AG already owns this question (per 4.1.1 experience).
16:29:40 <kirkwood> should  overlay(s) be in this discussion?
16:29:54 <alastairc> q+
16:29:55 <Rachael> q+
16:30:01 <Chuck> ack ala
16:30:28 <dj> alastairc: overlays are provided by the site, but they're intended to be kind of a user agent
16:30:34 <Ben_Tillyer1> +1 to that
16:30:42 <dj> ... i think i would learn towards them being authored content instead of UA
16:30:47 <Chuck> ack Rach
16:30:50 <Graham> +1
16:30:51 <Ben_Tillyer1> The user + browser cannot influence whether the overlay is installed
16:30:55 <dj> ... so i don't think it changes the equation
16:31:14 <dj> Rachael: agree. also with ai, i don't think we should be considering specific technology yet
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16:31:36 <dj> ... instead, we should be working on a framework that can adapt to changing technology
16:31:44 <Chuck> q?
16:32:23 <Chuck> q?
16:32:38 <Graham> overlays are 100% on the site side, the site owner chooses whether to have them on the site or not. It is only like any third part content.
16:32:44 <Chuck> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/104#discussioncomment-10313498
16:32:56 <dj> Chuck: members please review conversation/proposal for continued discussion later
16:32:58 <kirkwood> present+
16:33:16 <bruce_bailey> q+
16:33:22 <Chuck> ack Bruce
16:33:45 <dj> bruce_bailey: thank you Alastair for teasing out difference between prereq and baseline
16:34:26 <dj> rrsagent, make minutes
16:34:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/13-ag-minutes.html dj
16:35:07 <GN015> present+
16:35:07 <Rachael> s/ we don't create standards for stuff that doesn't work /we don't create standards for stuff that works without author effort
16:36:07 <dj> #foobar
16:36:11 <dj> #foobar-bugs
16:36:14 <dj> #foobar-watercooler
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