Meeting minutes
End of support for XHTML – ramifications for EPUB?
Graham: this came up in conversations
… this isn't an urgent issue; it's been the case for several years
… does anyone want to suggest there will - or won't - be repercussions?
<rickj> a+
Bill: I've thought that when we said content documents in XHTML we were not talking about the old XHTML spec but rather whatever the current version of HTML is
… is that correct?
Ivan: that is correct
Graham: I took a Quick Look and it is generally characterized as "the XML form of HTML"
Bill: I don't understand what it means for W3C to "support" XHTML
Graham: I think the phrase is "maintain"
Ivan: it doesn't mean anything if you think of HTML as a collection of tags
… there is no difference
… the big difference comes in when you do scripting
… if a file has a declaration that it is XML there are subtle differences in the way scripts work
… off the top of my head I don't recall the differences
… so what it means, if you look at the HTML spec today, the percentage of the tag-related definitions is lower than the percentage of API-related specifications
… "maintaining" XHTML means that in all those API descriptions there are some things said "if this is XML then ..."
… stopping this dualism is what I think we are talking about; the XML part will not be updated for new APIs or changes in APIs
… this means that if you develop an EPUB and want to add a script that you want to reuse from somewhere else then as long as you are in HTML you can reasonably rely on them but if you are in XHTML you have to be very careful
… so it's an issue for any EPUB with scripts, no matter how small
… caveat all this that I'm not an HTML person
… the EPUB WG discussed this many times
… what it means if we allow HTML in EPUB
… most of the RS probably work out of the box, especially the newer ones
… Brady had commented that most of the newer EPUB systems are based on webview
… it's a layer around the internal systems that are prepared for both XHTML and HTML
… so it's not a big deal for most of the systems built around those
… I don't know how many RS there might be that don't handle HTML
… the WG shied away from considering these consequences as we don't know how many [old] RSs might be impacted
… also knowing that there are still some publishers using EPUB2
… many of the processing chains still are based on XHTML
… whether it's time to look at EPUB again, I'm not sure
Rick: our experience looking at this as an RS, the arbitrary presence of closing tags (whether they are there or not) is what causes the most problem
… arbitrary places in toolsets would break when closing tags are omitted
… it's not clear when and where they would break
<wolfgang> +1 to rickj for concerns about not properly closing tags
Graham: we don't know the impact on toolsets but it sounds like the impact on RS should be minor
… it certainly should be called out at some future point; we don't want people to be surprised
… what should we do to prepare?
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to suggest that this is part of discussion of advancing EPUB at TPAC
Tzviya: this is part of a much larger conversation
… this can be part of our TPAC discussion
… understand the appetite from the business perspective
… touching all points of the supply chain
… appetite from the developer, business, and RS perspectives
… if closing tags are the issue, maybe that's solved by Epubcheck
… there are many points in the supply change that this affects
… and this group can help understand the appetite for change
Ivan: is epubcheck prepared for non-XML HTML?
… if epubcheck is based on an XML parser then we have a problem
Avneesh: we had plans to build epubcheck on the nuHTML validator
… so it doesn't support non-XML at this time but it can be improved
Liisa: we need to be mindful that everyone everywhere it touching their EPUBs now
… if we want to start down this path we need to give them the information now
… I don't want to have to fix thousands of EPUBs twice
Graham: that's right; we need to give as much notice as possible to everyone in the supply chain
… particularly to publishers who may have to deal with hundreds of thousands of files
… should this go on in the HTML venue?
… in this venue we should prepare people
George: yes, prepare
Bill: it's the Maintenance WG that is responsible for any changes
… can we revise the spec to say it uses the HTML markup but closing tags are required?
Ivan: I don't think that would work
… in the past there were documents about doing things that are both XHTML and HTML compatible
Tzviya: "polyglot"
Ivan: yes, but that didn't really progress
… but it should not be that bad; books produced in XHTML today and that work and are OK should be OK in the new world as well
… should require no change to existing books
… but in the future there could be the possibility to use tools for new books that you can't use now
… I think the biggest problem is the tools between the publishers and vendors
… all the tools that today rely on XML
<Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Tzviya for leaving the technical discussion to the WG
Avneesh: this is on the agenda for Anaheim, under "EPUB Next"
Distribution of W3C survey to publishers and others in the publishing supply chain)
Graham: just noting that we should distribute this to as many as possible
… both W3C Members and non-Members
… we should pass this on to all of our contacts who may be able to provide useful answers
George: there's a link for Members and a link for non-Members
… is it intended for AC Reps?
… would I fill out the Member or non-Member version?
Ralph: I understand the expectation to be that anyone affiliated with a Member should use the Member version
Liisa: is W3C looking for multiple answers from a single organization?
Tzviya: yes; the goal is to get as many individual answers as possible
<ivan> survey references
TPAC plans
Graham: we've already mentioned XHTML/HTML
… anything else this group should be doing?
Tzviya: the WG has finalized its agenda; it's in Github
<tzviya> w3c/
Tzviya: the timing is rough; the breaks have not yet been added
… the XHTML discussion might be moved earlier
… "substantial changes to EPUB"
Ivan: anyone is welcome to observe any of the TPAC group meetings
… the a11y meetings might be of interest to most here
… Wednesday is usually a hectic day; it's a lot of hour-long sessions where many ideas are talked about
… it would be important for folk from the publishing community would make their voices heard
Graham: who from this group is likely to be there?
<liisamk> virtually, but not physically
Rick: I will be there
Ivan: if you want to come even if you're not in a Member company we can still invite you
Graham: so anyone who wants to attend virtually can ask for an invite?
Ralph: yes
Update on relationship between IDPF and W3C
Rick: the IDPF still lives, to make sure W3C has a license for EPUB
… financially we can continue
… though logistically it gets difficult far into the future
… we'll be talking with Seth about how we can complete the original plan
… the goal is to find a way out of the awkward situation we're currently in
George: Leslie will need to be notified to pay the insurance premium
Leslie: I usually start the process in October
… when I find out the total expense I send an invoice to W3C; this happens end of November
Ivan: a question came up last week: at the moment the IDPF web site is frozen
… there is some errata that should be merged
… on the a11y spec
… I don't know if this is possible
Leslie: W3C has all the information
Ralph: W3C has all the bits and serves from our servers
… technically we can make changes but we want to limit what is change
… happy to have someone collect in Github a wish list of updates you'd like
Ralph: has the decision been formalized sufficiently that this steering committee includes all of the IDPF Board as well as the W3C group chairs?
George: Mike Baker hasn't been added to the distribution; he's been hard to reach
Graham: I believe everyone else is on the distribution
Bill: is it clear that we're saying the Steering Committee consists of the members of those two groups or _includes_ the members of those two groups
… can others be part of the Steering Committee?
Graham: I suspect it might be "includes"
Ralph: let's figure that out when we know who might be impacted
Graham: let's say the Steering Committee is composed of the IDPF Board and the W3C WG Chairs with the possibility of invited guests
Avneesh: our practice has been to invite people
… not that they simply join
Lunch and Learn webinars
<Bill_Kasdorf> Yes, looks fantastic!
Graham: this is a proposal from Leslie and Liisa
… for a set of Eastern US lunch time seminars on subjects of interest to this group
… presented by BISG
Liisa: co-branded by BISG and W3C
… Leslie and I have been talking with Brian @BISG for a couple of months about doing a monthly co-branded workshop series
… getting into concrete examples of implementation, pros and cons of different types of implementation
… showing examples, talking about marketplace status, and open discussion
… trying to bring in a few experts
… encouraging open conversation
… the goal is to find a way on a local basis to replace some of what we've been missing with getting people in conversation
… we've been talking about starting as early as September
… AI and TDM
… a11y and metadata; how we're hearing how this plays out in the marketplace, with ONYX and all
… short alt text, descriptions, automation that can be done and possible AI opportunities, frontlist and backlist
… page layout; how the original page anchor has changed in the metadata -- there have been many conversations and misunderstandings here
… mixed layout
… audio spec
… if this all works, then figure out where the next generation goes
Leslie: our opportunity niche is in sharing of best practices and examples
… it's annoying to hear the same high-level questions and getting pitches from vendors; we want to focus on the nitty-gritty
… Brian is open to engaging in something along these lines
… he's not yet seen this document as fully elaborated
… we wanted to get your input and then take it to him
… we might try to replicate this with other local people
Graham: we have something like this in the UK
… a series of lunches for several years that often include this sort of event
… I've provided a couple of comments to Liisa and Leslie
… it's an evolving document and discussion with BISG; what are your expectations?
Liisa: we're looking [to share it with Brian] sometime in the next week
<AvneeshSingh> very good initiative
<rickj> agreed... I support this. Looks great!
Bill: this looks fantastic; it's well fleshed-out, kudos to Liisa and Leslie
… it would be important that these be recorded; they will be useful references
… in which case, who owns those recordings? BISG, W3C, or both?
… it would be a good idea to set up a formal review schedule, particularly if they are recorded and there are material changes that would prompt an update
… a systematic way to catch those
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to invite Dave Cramer and Rachel C
Tzviya: Rachel and Dave would be great experts to include; they've been very involved in W3C
… but you know these people!
Liisa: thanks; we're trying to figure out how to get a variety of good examples
… there's not just one answer
<Graham> BISG does normally record these, and they appear on the BISG Youtube channel
Ralph: also kudos
… please make sure the W3C Comm Team is aware of this and how W3C is being referred-to
George: there's overlap with another monthly series
… that's fine
… it would be good to keep a list of reputable resources
… there's some bad information getting out there
… it would be great to have authoritative information out there
<Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to George
George: well-vetted
Graham: thanks all
… see you in a month or so
[adjourned]