13:50:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
13:50:45 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/09-pbgsc-irc
13:50:58 <ivan> zakim, start meeting
13:50:58 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:51:00 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
13:51:15 <ivan> date: 2024-08-09
13:51:31 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:51:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/09-pbgsc-minutes.html ivan
13:52:04 <ivan> rrsagent, set logs public
13:59:25 <ivan> present+
13:59:36 <ivan> present+ wolfgang, avneesh
13:59:55 <ivan> present+ graham
14:00:08 <ivan> present+ george
14:00:30 <AvneeshSingh> AvneeshSingh has joined #pbgsc
14:00:34 <ivan> present+ shinya
14:00:37 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:00:59 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #pbgsc
14:01:05 <ivan> present+ liisa
14:01:15 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
14:01:18 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
14:01:23 <ivan> present+ rickj
14:01:32 <shiestyle> present+
14:01:33 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
14:01:39 <George> present+
14:01:51 <liisamk> present+
14:02:30 <ivan> present+ billk
14:02:54 <rickj> rickj has joined #pbgsc
14:03:03 <rickj> present+
14:03:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
14:03:43 <Ralph> present+
14:03:53 <Ralph> scribe+
14:04:17 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose shiestyle
14:04:42 <Ralph> chair: Graham
14:04:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
14:05:19 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2024Aug/0002.html
14:05:23 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the call?
14:05:23 <Zakim> Present: ivan, wolfgang, avneesh, graham, george, shinya, AvneeshSingh, liisa, rickj, shiestyle, liisamk, billk, Ralph, Bill_Kasdorf
14:05:41 <Ralph> regrets: Cristina, Wendy
14:05:48 <Ralph> regrets+ Daihei
14:06:05 <Ralph> regrets+ Leslie
14:06:20 <Ralph> topic: End of support for XHTML – ramifications for EPUB?
14:06:29 <Ralph> Graham: this came up in conversations
14:06:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:06:42 <Ralph> ... this isn't an urgent issue; it's been the case for several years
14:06:49 <ivan> q+
14:06:58 <Ralph> ... does anyone want to suggest there will - or won't - be repercussions?
14:07:24 <rickj> a+
14:07:26 <rickj> q+
14:07:37 <Ralph> Bill: I've thought that when we said content documents in XHTML we were not talking about the old XHTML spec but rather whatever the current version of HTML is
14:07:40 <Ralph> ... is that correct?
14:07:43 <Ralph> Ivan: that is correct
14:08:07 <Ralph> Graham: I took a Quick Look and it is generally characterized as "the XML form of HTML"
14:08:26 <Ralph> s/Quick Look/Quick Look/
14:08:41 <Ralph> Bill: I don't understand what it means for W3C to "support" XHTML
14:08:48 <Ralph> Graham: I think the phrase is "maintain"
14:09:00 <Ralph> Ivan: it doesn't mean anything if you think of HTML as a collection of tags
14:09:03 <Ralph> ... there is no difference
14:09:13 <Ralph> ... the big difference comes in when you do scripting
14:09:32 <Ralph> ... if a file has a declaration that it is XML there are subtle differences in the way scripts work
14:09:44 <Ralph> ... off the top of my head I don't recall the differences
14:10:13 <Ralph> ... so what it means, if you look at the HTML spec today, the percentage of the tag-related definitions is lower than the percentage of API-related specifications
14:10:42 <Ralph> ... "maintaining" XHTML means that in all those API descriptions there are some things said "if this is XML then ..."
14:11:10 <Ralph> ... stopping this dualism is what I think we are talking about; the XML part will not be updated for new APIs or changes in APIs
14:11:54 <Ralph> ... this means that if you develop an EPUB and want to add a script that you want to reuse from somewhere else then as long as you are in HTML you can reasonably rely on them but if you are in XHTML you have to be very careful
14:12:09 <Ralph> ... so it's an issue for any EPUB with scripts, no matter how small
14:12:18 <Ralph> ... caveat all this that I'm not an HTML person
14:12:29 <Ralph> ... the EPUB WG discussed this many times
14:12:52 <Ralph> ... what it means if we allow HTML in EPUB
14:13:03 <Ralph> ... most of the RS probably work out of the box, especially the newer ones
14:13:18 <Ralph> ... Brady had commented that most of the newer EPUB systems are based on webview
14:13:51 <Ralph> ... it's a layer around the internal systems that are prepared for both XHTML and HTML
14:14:03 <Ralph> ... so it's not a big deal for most of the systems built around those
14:14:15 <Ralph> ... I don't know how many RS there might be that don't handle HTML
14:14:46 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:15:01 <Ralph> ... the WG shied away from considering these consequences as we don't know how many [old] RSs might be impacted
14:15:25 <Ralph> ... also knowing that there are still some publishers using EPUB2
14:15:45 <AvneeshSingh> q-
14:15:45 <Ralph> present+ Leslie
14:15:50 <Ralph> regrets- Leslie
14:16:10 <Ralph> ... many of the processing chains still are based on XHTML
14:16:29 <tzviya> q+ to suggest that this is part of discussion of advancing EPUB at TPAC
14:16:31 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf
14:16:34 <ivan> ack ivan
14:16:36 <Ralph> ... whether it's time to look at EPUB again, I'm not sure
14:16:38 <ivan> ack rickj
14:17:02 <Ralph> Rick: our experience looking at this as an RS, the arbitrary presence of closing tags (whether they are there or not) is what causes the most problem
14:17:19 <Ralph> ... arbitrary places in toolsets would break when closing tags are omitted
14:17:25 <Ralph> ... it's not clear when and where they would break
14:17:32 <wolfgang> +1 to rickj for concerns about not properly closing tags
14:17:49 <Ralph> Graham: we don't know the impact on toolsets but it sounds like the impact on RS should be minor
14:17:59 <ivan> q+
14:18:07 <Ralph> ... it certainly should be called out at some future point; we don't want people to be surprised
14:18:12 <Ralph> ... what should we do to prepare?
14:18:14 <liisamk> q+
14:18:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:18:20 <ivan> ack tzviya
14:18:20 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to suggest that this is part of discussion of advancing EPUB at TPAC
14:18:21 <Ralph> Tzviya: this is part of a much larger conversation
14:18:49 <Ralph> ... this can be part of our TPAC discussion
14:19:01 <Ralph> ... understand the appetite from the business perspective
14:19:07 <Graham> q?
14:19:10 <Ralph> present+ Tzviya
14:19:18 <Ralph> ... touching all points of the supply chain
14:19:30 <Ralph> ... appetite from the developer, business, and RS perspectives
14:19:41 <Ralph> ... if closing tags are the issue, maybe that's solved by Epubcheck
14:19:53 <Ralph> ... there are many points in the supply change that this affects
14:20:01 <ivan> ack ivan
14:20:05 <Ralph> ... and this group can help understand the appetite for change
14:20:19 <Ralph> Ivan: is epubcheck prepared for non-XML HTML?
14:20:20 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:20:38 <Ralph> ... if epubcheck is based on an XML parser then we have a problem
14:21:09 <Ralph> Avneesh: we had plans to build epubcheck on the nuHTML validatore
14:21:13 <Ralph> s/tore/tor
14:21:26 <ivan> ack liisamk
14:21:28 <Ralph> ... so it doesn't support non-XML at this time but it can be improved
14:21:32 <ivan> ack AvneeshSingh
14:21:41 <Ralph> Liisa: we need to be mindful that everyone everywhere it touching their EPUBs now
14:21:53 <Ralph> ... if we want to start down this path we need to give them the information now
14:22:01 <ivan> q+
14:22:05 <Ralph> ... I don't want to have to fix thousands of EPUBs twice
14:22:41 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:22:42 <Ralph> Graham: that's right; we need to give as much notice as possible to everyone in the supply chain
14:22:55 <Ralph> ... particularly to publishers who may have to deal with hundreds of thousands of files
14:23:12 <Ralph> ... should this go on in the HTML venue?
14:23:25 <Ralph> ... in this venue we should prepare people
14:23:34 <Ralph> George: yes, prepare
14:23:44 <Ralph> Bill: it's the Maintenance WG that is responsible for any changes
14:24:04 <Ralph> ... can we revise the spec to say it uses the HTML markup but closing tags are required?
14:24:08 <liisamk> q+
14:24:11 <Ralph> Ivan: I don't think that would work
14:24:13 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf
14:24:36 <Ralph> ... in the past there were documents about doing things that are both XHTML and HTML compatible
14:24:42 <Ralph> Tzviya: "polyglot"
14:24:50 <Ralph> Ivan: yes, but that didn't really progress
14:25:10 <Ralph> ... but it should not be that bad; books produced in XHTML today and that work and are OK should be OK in the new world as well
14:25:24 <Ralph> ... should require no change to existing books
14:25:45 <Ralph> ... but in the future there could be the possibility to use tools for new books that you can't use now
14:26:00 <Ralph> ... I think the biggest problem is the tools between the publishers and vendors
14:26:07 <Ralph> ... all the tools that today rely on XML
14:26:25 <liisamk> q-
14:26:31 <Graham> q?
14:26:38 <ivan> ack ivan
14:26:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Tzviya for leaving the technical discussion to the WG
14:26:42 <ivan> ack AvneeshSingh
14:26:43 <Ralph> Avneesh: this is on the agenda for Anaheim, under "EPUB Next"
14:26:51 <Ralph> topic: Distribution of W3C survey to publishers and others in the publishing supply chain)
14:27:08 <Ralph> Graham: just noting that we should distribute this to as many as possible
14:27:15 <Ralph> ... both W3C Members and non-Members
14:27:33 <Ralph> ... we should pass this on to all of our contacts who may be able to provide useful answers
14:27:38 <liisamk> q+
14:27:55 <Ralph> George: there's a link for Members and a link for non-Members
14:28:07 <Ralph> ... is it intended for AC Reps?
14:28:14 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:28:31 <Ralph> ... would I fill out the Member or non-Member version?
14:28:50 <Ralph> Ralph: I understand the expectation to be that anyone affiliated with a Member should use the Member version
14:29:13 <tzviya> ack liisamk
14:29:15 <Ralph> Liisa: is W3C looking for multiple answers from a single organization?
14:29:25 <AvneeshSingh> q-
14:29:26 <Ralph> Tzviya: yes; the goal is to get as many individual answers as possible
14:29:31 <ivan> -> survey references https://www.w3.org/news/2024/w3c-opens-community-wide-survey/
14:30:20 <Ralph> topic: TPAC plans
14:30:35 <Ralph> Graham: we've already mentioned XHTML/HTML
14:30:40 <tzviya> q+
14:30:43 <Ralph> ... anything else this group should be doing?
14:31:01 <Ralph> Tzviya: the WG has finalized its agenda; it's in Github
14:31:12 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/issues/5#issuecomment-2258541132
14:31:14 <Ralph> ... the timing is rough; the breaks have not yet been added
14:31:26 <ivan> q+
14:31:39 <Ralph> ... the XHTML discussion might be moved earlier
14:31:46 <Ralph> ... "substantial changes to EPUB"
14:32:10 <ivan> ack tzviya
14:32:32 <Leslie> Leslie has joined #pbgsc
14:32:43 <Ralph> Ivan: anyone is welcome to observe any of the TPAC group meetings
14:32:55 <Ralph> ... the a11y meetings might be of interest to most here
14:33:22 <Ralph> ... Wednesday is usually a hectic day; it's a lot of hour-long sessions where many ideas are talked about
14:33:45 <Ralph> ... it would be important for folk from the publishing community would make their voices heard
14:33:55 <Ralph> Graham: who from this group is likely to be there?
14:34:06 <liisamk> virtually, but not physically
14:34:12 <Ralph> Rick: I will be there
14:34:27 <Ralph> Ivan: if you want to come even if you're not in a Member company we can still invite you
14:35:25 <Ralph> Graham: so anyone who wants to attend virtually can ask for an invite?
14:35:27 <Ralph> Ralph: yes
14:35:41 <Ralph> topic: Update on relationship between IDPF and W3C
14:35:52 <Ralph> Rick: the IDPF still lives, to make sure W3C has a license for EPUB
14:36:02 <Ralph> ... financially we can continue
14:36:13 <Ralph> ... though logistically it gets difficult far into the future
14:36:29 <Ralph> ... we'll be talking with Seth about how we can complete the original plan
14:36:35 <George> q+
14:36:44 <ivan> q- later
14:36:46 <Ralph> ... the goal is to find a way out of the awkward situation we're currently in
14:36:53 <ivan> ack George
14:37:21 <Ralph> George: Leslie will need to be notified to pay the insurance premium
14:37:46 <Ralph> Leslie: I usually start the process in October
14:38:42 <Ralph> ... when I find out the total expense I send an invoice to W3C; this happens end of November
14:39:05 <Ralph> Ivan: a question came up last week: at the moment the IDPF web site is frozen
14:39:20 <Ralph> ... there is some errata that should be merged
14:39:27 <Ralph> ... on the a11y spec
14:39:38 <Ralph> ... I don't know if this is possible
14:39:54 <Ralph> Leslie: W3C has all the information
14:39:55 <rickj> q+
14:40:16 <ivan> ack ivan
14:40:29 <rickj> q-
14:41:02 <liisamk> q+
14:41:16 <ivan> ack Ralph
14:41:38 <Ralph> Ralph: W3C has all the bits and serves from our servers
14:41:58 <Ralph> ... technically we can make changes but we want to limit what is change
14:43:18 <Ralph> ... happy to have someone collect in Github a wish list of updates you'd like
14:44:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:44:54 <Ralph> Ralph: has the decision been formalized sufficiently that this steering committee includes all of the IDPF Board as well as the W3C group chairs?
14:45:19 <Ralph> George: Mike Baker hasn't been added to the distribution; he's been hard to reach
14:45:33 <Ralph> Graham: I believe everyone else is on the distribution
14:46:19 <Graham> q?
14:46:27 <ivan> ack liisamk
14:47:03 <Ralph> Bill: is it clear that we're saying the Steering Committee consists of the members of those two groups or _includes_ the members of those two groups
14:47:13 <Ralph> ... can others be part of the Steering Committee?
14:47:31 <Ralph> Graham: I suspect it might be "includes"
14:48:48 <Ralph> Ralph: let's figure that out when we know who might be impacted
14:49:35 <Ralph> Graham: let's say the Steering Committee is composed of the IDPF Board and the W3C WG Chairs with the possibility of invited guests
14:49:49 <Ralph> Avneesh: our practice has been to invite people
14:50:01 <Ralph> ... not that they simply join
14:51:41 <Ralph> topic: Lunch and Learn webinars
14:51:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> Yes, looks fantastic!
14:51:55 <Ralph> Graham: this is a proposal from Leslie and Liisa
14:52:29 <Ralph> ... for a set of Eastern US lunch time seminars on subjects of interest to this group
14:52:36 <Ralph> ... presented by BISG
14:52:43 <Ralph> Liisa: co-branded by BISG and W3C
14:53:05 <Ralph> ... Leslie and I have been talking with Brian @BISG for a couple of months about doing a monthly co-branded workshop series
14:53:32 <Ralph> ... getting into concrete examples of implementation, pros and cons of different types of implementation
14:53:45 <Ralph> ... showing examples, talking about marketplace status, and open discussion
14:53:50 <Ralph> ... trying to bring in a few experts
14:53:55 <Ralph> ... encouraging open conversation
14:54:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:54:20 <Ralph> ... the goal is to find a way on a local basis to replace some of what we've been missing with getting people in conversation
14:54:35 <Ralph> ... we've been talking about starting as early as September
14:54:39 <Ralph> ... AI and TDM
14:55:08 <Ralph> ... a11y and metadata; how we're hearing how this plays out in the marketplace, with ONYX and all
14:55:32 <Ralph> ... short alt text, descriptions, automation that can be done and possible AI opportunities, frontlist and backlist
14:55:57 <Ralph> ... page layout; how the original page anchor has changed in the metadata -- there have been many conversations and misunderstandings here
14:56:02 <Ralph> ... mixed layout
14:56:04 <Ralph> ... audio spec
14:56:14 <Ralph> ... if this all works, then figure out where the next generation goes
14:56:29 <Ralph> Leslie: our opportunity niche is in sharing of best practices and examples
14:56:48 <tzviya> q+ to invite Dave Cramer and Rachel C
14:56:57 <Ralph> ... it's annoying to hear the same high-level questions and getting pitches from vendors; we want to focus on the nitty-gritty
14:57:06 <Ralph> ... Brian is open to engaging in something along these lines
14:57:16 <Ralph> ... he's not yet seen this document as fully elaborated
14:57:25 <Ralph> ... we wanted to get your input and then take it to him
14:57:42 <George> q+
14:57:49 <Ralph> ... we might try to replicate this with other local people
14:57:56 <Ralph> Graham: we have something like this in the UK
14:58:11 <Ralph> ... a series of lunches for several years that often include this sort of event
14:58:21 <Ralph> ... I've provided a couple of comments to Liisa and Leslie
14:58:51 <George> q?
14:58:53 <Ralph> ... it's an evolving document and discussion with BISG; what are your expectations?
14:59:04 <Ralph> Liisa: we're looking [to share it with Brian] sometime in the next week
14:59:08 <AvneeshSingh> very good initiative
14:59:23 <rickj> agreed... I support this.  Looks great!
14:59:29 <Ralph> Bill: this looks fantastic; it's well fleshed-out, kudos to Liisa and Leslie
14:59:45 <Ralph> ... it would be important that these be recorded; they will be useful references
15:00:00 <Ralph> ... in which case, who owns those recordings?  BISG, W3C, or both?
15:00:24 <Ralph> ... it would be a good idea to set up a formal review schedule, particularly if they are recorded and there are material changes that would prompt an update
15:00:31 <Ralph> ... a systematic way to catch those
15:00:37 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to invite Dave Cramer and Rachel C
15:01:05 <Ralph> Tzviya: Rachel and Dave would be great experts to include; they've been very involved in W3C
15:01:09 <Ralph> ... but you know these people!
15:01:30 <Ralph> Liisa: thanks; we're trying to figure out how to get a variety of good examples
15:01:34 <Ralph> ... there's not just one answer
15:02:13 <Graham> BISG does normally record these, and they appear on the BISG Youtube channel
15:02:32 <Graham> q?
15:02:45 <ivan> ack Ralph
15:02:49 <Ralph> Ralph: also kudos
15:03:03 <Ralph> ... please make sure the W3C Comm Team is aware of this and how W3C is being referred-to
15:03:17 <Ralph> George: there's overlap with another monthly series
15:03:21 <Ralph> ... that's fine
15:03:35 <Ralph> ... it would be good to keep a list of reputable resources
15:03:43 <Ralph> ... there's some bad information getting out there
15:03:50 <Ralph> ... it would be great to have authoritative information out there
15:03:52 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to George
15:04:01 <Ralph> ... well-vetted
15:04:18 <Ralph> Graham: thanks all
15:04:31 <Ralph> ... see you in a month or so
15:04:33 <Ralph> [adjourned]
15:04:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ivan, wolfgang, avneesh, graham, george, shinya, AvneeshSingh, liisa, rickj, shiestyle, liisamk, billk, Ralph, Bill_Kasdorf, Leslie, Tzviya
15:04:40 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:04:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/09-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
15:04:48 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:04:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
15:05:45 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
15:05:45 <RRSAgent> I see no action items