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19:01:20 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, make log public
19:01:27 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
19:01:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
19:01:29 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
19:02:15 <jugglinmike> Meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
19:03:29 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:03:36 <mmoss> present+
19:03:42 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:03:53 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
19:06:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday August 12
19:06:54 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: We will have to cancel that meeting
19:06:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay
19:07:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next community group meeting: Wednesday August 14
19:07:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
19:07:36 <jugglinmike> present+ Michael_Fairchild
19:07:51 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: Can we discuss the possibility of doing something for (or at) CSUN?
19:07:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay
19:08:02 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
19:08:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Goal is still 6 recommended plans by September 30 and 4 more by December 31.
19:09:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I ordered the next plans intentionally. I think Navigation Menu Button needs to happen before Action Menu Button and Radio Group
19:09:20 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
19:09:27 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I think that makes sense
19:09:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Action Menu Button is nearly identical; you might even be able to copy the files
19:10:02 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Yeah, maybe just update the references
19:10:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: From there, Radio Group Using Roving Tab Index seems like an easy win for us and for the vendors
19:10:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That will put us up to 12. Then, we'll have to talk about what to do next (though I think we might want to consider the other sliders)
19:11:06 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Do we need to update the example for the navigation menu button, as well?
19:11:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I believe so, yes--specifically around the "collapsed" state
19:11:25 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing of disclosure navigation menu
19:13:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For JAWS, we have two people assigned (IsaDC and Hadi), and it isn't started, yet
19:13:24 <jugglinmike> present+ Hadi
19:13:43 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I should be able to get started on this before the next meeting
19:13:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We need another tester for NVDA
19:14:05 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I can test that
19:14:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Cool!
19:14:20 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm going to remove the bot and assigned Joe_Humbert
19:14:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For VoiceOver, it looks like Dean_Hamack has already started
19:14:51 <jugglinmike> present+ Dean_Hamack
19:15:20 <jugglinmike> Dean_Hamack: I'm about halfway done (I was slowed down a bit because I originally misunderstood the instructions)
19:15:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If anyone is assigned to multiple test plans, disclosure is definitely the priority
19:18:50 <jugglinmike> present+ James_Scholes
19:19:34 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I will follow up to make sure folks have what they need
19:21:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What's the status of the bug or bugs in the VoiceOver Bot?
19:21:45 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: We're aware of one problem--an issue with Shift+Tab as reported by IsaDC. My colleague Chris is currently investigating that
19:21:56 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: If there are others, then please let us know
19:22:41 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I can use the staging server to test the bot's behavior on a few other test plans and let you know
19:23:05 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: Being proactive like that would be great--the sooner we know about problems, the sooner we can start working on solutions
19:23:18 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing action menu button with activeDescendant
19:23:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Murray_Moss would you mind taking on JAWS?
19:23:44 <jugglinmike> present+ Murray_Moss
19:23:50 <jugglinmike> Murray_Moss: sure thing
19:24:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Joe_Humbert after you're done with NVDA and Disclosure, will you have any more availability?
19:24:46 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Sure
19:25:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great; let's assign Joe_Humbert to VoiceOver
19:25:24 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'll do that and also assign the NVDA Bot
19:25:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then we just need an NVDA Tester
19:25:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any takers?
19:25:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll check back in next week
19:26:25 <jugglinmike> Topic: Tools
19:26:36 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I think we should find a place for this information to live, maybe on the wiki
19:27:08 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Separately, we previously offered an add-on for speech history--that add-on is now available in the NVDA store
19:28:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have a section in the wiki navigation named "Running and Developing AT Tests"
19:29:27 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Is there any world in which the VoiceOver recorder app is modified to use the speech synthesizer that we're using in automation
19:29:36 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: that's probably a discussion for another forum
19:31:02 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Dean_Hamack, I've sent you an e-mail with information on the VoiceOver recorder
19:31:09 <jugglinmike> Dean_Hamack: Thanks!
19:31:34 <jugglinmike> Topic: Request for change to radio test plan
19:31:54 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1094
19:32:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This seems like a straightforward request
19:32:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This has come up before: Is there really a difference between "Insert + Tab" and "Insert + Up"?
19:32:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: As a result of our work here, Vispero has decided that they're going to define that difference
19:33:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They're basically saying that "Insert + Up" should give less information, and "Insert + Tab" should give more and richer informatino
19:33:19 <jugglinmike> s/informatino/information/
19:34:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think what they're really talking about here are the things like sliders, radio buttons, etc--anything where there is a composite with some kind of a container
19:34:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's my interpretation
19:35:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They requested that we remove the assertions for things that are not name, role, value, or state
19:35:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So that would be information like the name of the radio group (if it's a radio group) or text like "one of four"
19:35:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My inclination is that for things that are about the immediate control (e.g. "one of four"), those probably ought to just be optional (not a should or a must)
19:36:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: ...but anything about the container, you wouldn't assert anything at all--only for "Insert + Up"
19:36:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Only when you press "Insert + Tab" would it be optional assertion that it conveys the role of the container
19:37:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That seems to be in alignment with what Vispero has written here; does anyone in the meeting have concerns about going in this direction?
19:38:58 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: Why would we remove assertions rather than make them optional? Removing them risks insinuating to testers that those details are excessively verbose
19:40:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: IsaDC, do you think it would be a problem to make that assertion optional?
19:40:51 <jugglinmike> s/make that assertion/keep that assertion and mark it as/
19:43:55 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I agree with removing the assertions. Then we make sure that Testers do not feel that those assertions are mandatory
19:44:31 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: but the presence of the assertions does communicate to Testers the idea that we believe some output is reasonable
19:44:57 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I think it's a good thing that Vispero is making the distinction clearer in their product
19:45:20 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I don't think that we should include a optional assertion for this case
19:45:38 <jugglinmike> Dean_Hamack: I'm totally with you on that, James_Scholes
19:45:52 <jugglinmike> Dean_Hamack: when I focus on a button, I don't need to know everything else about it
19:46:10 <jugglinmike> present+ Hadi
19:46:39 <jugglinmike> Hadi: If we keep the assertion, and the result is that they do not mention the name of the group upon pressing "Insert + Up", we are not considering that a failure, right?
19:46:55 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: that's right, we are not considering that a failure because the assertion is optional
19:56:02 <Joe_Humbert> present+
20:06:25 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
20:06:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/08-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
20:06:50 <Matt_King> present+
20:06:56 <Matt_King> zakim, bye
20:06:56 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, mmoss, Michael_Fairchild, IsaDC, Hadi, Dean_Hamack, James_Scholes, Murray_Moss, Joe_Humbert, Matt_King
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