10:53:34 RRSAgent has joined #wot-uc 10:53:38 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-irc 10:53:42 meeting: WoT Use Cases 10:55:40 Tomo has joined #wot-uc 10:58:06 McCool has joined #wot-uc 11:05:15 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Michael_McCool, Jan_Romann 11:05:38 chair: Mizushima 11:06:04 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/TODO/20240807.md 11:06:20 scribenick: JKRhb 11:06:40 topic: Agenda Review 11:07:07 mz: We will first have a look at logistics and minutes, then we will discuss improving the progress and the template 11:07:19 luca_barbato has joined #wot-uc 11:07:19 ... I think Sebastian is going to coming here later 11:07:40 ... so I would propose first discussing the template and then the process 11:07:55 mm: No need to ask, you can just decide that 11:08:02 topic: Logistics 11:08:20 mz: There are cancellations due to summer vacations in August 11:08:35 ... in September, Ege will also not be available 11:08:35 please hold the use cases call even if I am not present :) 11:08:42 s/in August/in August (Aug 14, 21 and 28)/ 11:08:55 ... I would propose, though, to have calls in September, due to TPAC 11:09:01 q+ 11:09:13 rrsagent, make log public 11:09:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:09:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:09:29 ack m 11:09:31 q+ 11:09:33 mm: For TPAC, we should probably reserve some time on the schedule to discuss use cases 11:09:41 ack k 11:09:41 ... I can put it on the agenda right now 11:09:47 kaz: I agree 11:10:01 mm: We can spend the September 4 meeting to discuss the meeting materials 11:10:26 mz: Then I would not cancel the use case call 11:10:43 topic: Meeting Plan 11:10:51 mz: Same as previous call 11:11:04 ... I think we need to fix the GitHub issue template 11:11:10 ... and perform the refactoring 11:11:23 ... today, we will also discuss the process of the use case task force 11:11:28 No objections to that 11:11:33 topic: Minutes Review 11:11:48 mz: In the previous call, we discussed the YAML-based template 11:11:53 ... we merged the PR 298 11:12:16 sebastian has joined #wot-uc 11:12:19 ... and also discussed the topic regarding email addressed and names, but did not have enough time to finish the discussion 11:12:28 (I have added Use Cases to the WoT TPAC agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_F2F_2024_planning#Use_Cases_and_Requirements) 11:12:31 ... is it okay? Any objections to approving the minutes? 11:12:38 q? 11:12:40 No objections, minutes are approved 11:13:00 present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch 11:13:08 topic: Fix the YAML-based Use Case template 11:13:12 present+ Luca_Barbato 11:13:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:13:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:13:25 mz: I would like to discuss this topic first 11:13:34 ... I think there still some issues regarding how to fix the template 11:13:50 ... which delay the progress of this Task Force and of other documents 11:13:58 q+ 11:14:02 q+ 11:14:19 ... and there are still items that we need to discuss, for example the policies regarding the submission of emails and real names 11:14:48 ... I therefore think that the template might not be finished until the end of the yearm which is really bad 11:15:12 q? 11:15:13 q+ 11:15:16 ... I discussed this with Ege, based on which he created a new template in PR 300 11:15:23 qq+ Ege 11:15:27 ... could you explain the PR, please? 11:15:27 q- EgeKorkan 11:15:43 present+ Jan_Romann 11:15:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:15:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:15:59 ek: When I tried to submit a use case, I noticed that there is a lot information asked that even I cannot provide 11:16:32 ... somewhat radical proposal, has less information and only asks question that I as a spec author need 11:16:34 present+ Ege_Korkan 11:16:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:16:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:17:10 ... for example, asks for explaining where the gap in the existing standards is and how the specification needs to be adjusted to cover my use case 11:17:14 > https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pull/300 11:17:24 i|We will first|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/TODO/20240807.md Agenda for today| 11:17:27 ... also asks for some background information 11:17:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:17:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:17:41 https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/egekorkan-patch-6/.github/ISSUE_TEMPLATE/use-case-template.yml 11:18:14 i|> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pull/300| 11:18:25 mz: (shows a rendered version of Ege's template) 11:18:27 q+ 11:18:38 ack e 11:18:38 Ege, you wanted to react to kaz 11:18:42 ... (presents the structure of Ege's approach) 11:18:52 i|I would like to discuss|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pull/300 PR 300 - New Use Case Template Proposal| 11:19:02 ... asks for problem with existing specifications 11:19:12 ... as well as solutions and other comments 11:19:18 ... very, very simple approach 11:19:26 ... would like to discuss this with you 11:19:32 q? 11:19:42 kaz: There was some discussion during the TD coordination call as well 11:19:49 ... basically agree with Ege here 11:20:01 ... maybe we should start with a level 1 approach like this 11:20:13 ... then create a more detailed level 2 template later 11:20:23 ack k 11:20:30 ... so we can start with this two-step approach 11:20:44 s/as well/yesterday as well/ 11:20:47 mm: Noticed that we've removed privacy, security etc. in this template 11:21:15 ... however, we can cover that in a second level follow-up. If we do that, I am fine with this approach 11:21:30 ... do you have a list of what you've removed, Ege? 11:21:58 q? 11:22:09 ek: Removed security, accessibility, privacy, and the others. Submitters could add that in a free text field, if they are already aware of the implications here 11:22:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:22:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:22:23 ... I also removed @@@ 11:22:34 ack McCool 11:22:39 ... this was mostly based on my experience, since even I didn't now what to provide there 11:23:21 q? 11:23:25 ... so the new template focussed on helping the editors with the specifications. More information can then be provided in the second level 11:23:32 sk: I also like this proposal 11:23:41 ... maybe two points to improve here 11:23:45 removed fields: 11:23:57 ... there could be hints or examples what to provide here 11:24:11 s/@@@/Adopters/ 11:24:15 ... for example, selecting the domains where the use case is applicable 11:24:16 q+ 11:24:28 ack s 11:24:35 ... similar to what we currently have in the original template proposal 11:24:54 ek: There is something in the "problem" section already 11:25:06 sk: Something like that looks good 11:25:29 q? 11:25:34 q+ 11:25:38 sorry, I have to move to another meeting 11:25:55 mm: I have a simpler proposal: Just adding a link to the "domains" section in the use case document, then people can just pick the domain that is applicable to them. This shortens the template and makes it easier to add more domains later 11:26:19 Sebastian leaves 11:26:20 ack mc 11:26:28 mz: I think Ege's proposal is good 11:26:36 s/sorry, I have to move to another meeting// 11:26:39 ... because the use case template should be simple 11:27:00 ... if the template is complicated, they cannot describe their use case 11:27:07 q+ 11:27:20 removed fields: potential adopters, potential applications, expected devices, expected data, link to similar use case, other use case, expected relationships (these are mentioned as possible input), security, privacy and more considerations 11:27:22 ... so I think this use case template is good. I also agree with Kaz 11:27:44 q? 11:27:59 s/removed fields: potential adopters, potential applications, expected devices, expected data, link to similar use case, other use case, expected relationships (these are mentioned as possible input), security, privacy and more considerations// 11:28:05 i|I think Ege's|removed fields: potential adopters, potential applications, expected devices, expected data, link to similar use case, other use case, expected relationships (these are mentioned as possible input), security, privacy and more considerations| 11:28:06 mm: Want to suggest how to move forward: We have three weeks without meetings coming up and we have a proposal on the table 11:28:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:28:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:28:22 ... we have simpler template, with a few things to fix 11:28:31 ... we can ask for feedback in the main call 11:28:50 ... but set a deadline for adoption right after the end of the break 11:29:08 ... so we can do a call for resolution to adopt it on September 4 11:29:31 ... this gives people enough time to provide input and also fix the two issues we have identified above 11:29:50 ... then we will have the template by September 4 11:29:55 ek: Sounds good 11:29:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:29:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:30:03 mz: Agree 11:30:12 ... I would then first merge Ege's proposal 11:30:32 mm: If we leave it as a PR, we can ask people to review the document 11:30:34 q? 11:30:37 ack mc 11:30:53 ... and then collect feedback. Otherwise people would need to open new PRs 11:30:59 present+ Daniel 11:31:01 dape has joined #wot-uc 11:31:11 ek: Agree, working in PRs is easier 11:31:42 mm: Then leave it as a PR, make the call for resolution, and also ask people in the main call for reviewing it 11:32:01 ... do you expect work on use cases in the TD call in the meantime, Ege? 11:32:34 ek: We wanted to start working on this in today's TD call, picking a couple of use cases and then documenting experiences after the summer break 11:32:57 mm: I think this template is a more condensed version, or a subset of the original template 11:33:19 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/.github/ISSUE_TEMPLATE/WoT-UseCases-Template.yml original template 11:33:20 q? 11:33:23 ... we can start working on that with this template and then also have use cases ready on September 4 11:33:44 s/a more condensed version, or a// 11:33:49 i|we can|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/egekorkan-patch-6/.github/ISSUE_TEMPLATE/use-case-template.yml Ege's proposed shorter template| 11:33:53 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:33:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:34:01 s/subset/proper subset/ 11:34:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:34:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html JKRhb 11:34:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:34:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:34:22 q? 11:34:50 kaz: Actually, I was planning to give the exact comment, so I think we should make a task force resolution in this call 11:35:02 mm: I will prepare a proposal 11:35:28 s/ is proper/ is a proper/ 11:35:33 ack kaz 11:35:49 https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pull/300 11:36:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:36:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:36:40 proposal: discuss the new template given in PR https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pull/300 in the main call today and call for a resolution to adopt it on Sept 4 - in the meantime, do test cases based on TD use cases and request feedback and suggested changes in the PR. 11:36:57 s/this template is proper/this template is a proper/ 11:37:33 mm: Is it okay to adopt this proposal as a resolution? 11:37:36 proposal: Discuss the new template given in usecases PR https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pull/300 in the main call today and call for a resolution to adopt it on Sept 4 - in the meantime, do test cases based on TD use cases and request feedback and suggested changes in the PR. 11:37:43 q+ 11:37:49 mm: Made some small tweaks 11:37:56 q- 11:38:13 kaz: Are planning to add this point to the main call agenda after making the resolution, Michael? 11:38:22 [@@@ kaz will remove the first proposed resolution later ] 11:38:35 s/Are you/Just to make sure, are you/ 11:38:42 mm: Yeah, I would turn this into a main call resolution after September 4 11:38:48 resolution: Discuss the new template given in usecases PR https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pull/300 in the main call today and call for a resolution to adopt it on Sept 4 - in the meantime, do test cases based on TD use cases and request feedback and suggested changes in the PR. 11:38:54 ... meaning we would just push the merge button 11:39:18 No objections to the proposal, resolution above has been accepted 11:39:20 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:39:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:39:31 topic: Improving the Use Case TF process 11:39:44 mm: We now have the plan of publishing the template on September 4 11:39:58 ... so that unblocks the gathering of the use cases from TD etc 11:40:12 ... and we will also have some initial use cases from the TD TF 11:40:13 s/Are planning/Just to make sure, are you planning/ 11:40:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:40:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:40:24 ... so we should discuss what we should put onto the TPAC agenda 11:40:33 ... and what we want to get done by the end of the year 11:40:35 s/Yeah, I would/Yeah, and then I would/ 11:40:43 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:40:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:40:51 mm: We discussed having a co-moderator 11:41:00 q+ 11:41:05 ... in general, can we parallelize processes? 11:41:25 ... we have two aspects to deal here, requirements and use cases 11:41:41 ... so there is a natural split, which we could cover with two moderators 11:42:02 ... another split would be English/Japanese, with the Japanese use cases being translates ones from English 11:42:15 ... in general, we are a bit behind and need to catch up 11:42:25 q+ 11:42:37 kaz: I generally agree with Michael, and we need to carefully think about this 11:42:49 ... since use cases are the basis of all other specifications 11:43:19 ... need to think about how to organize the schedule and how to plan the next steps 11:43:25 q- 11:43:32 ... completely agree with the next steps proposed by Michael 11:44:09 q+ 11:44:15 s/completely agree with the next steps proposed by Michael/agree that McCool's mentioned next steps are possible options/ 11:44:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:44:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:44:35 dp: Regarding Kaz's points: In general, use cases should drive the other specifications. But since we are lagging behind with the use cases, I am wondering if we should proceed with the other specifications regardless, or we should block the work there due to missing use cases 11:44:51 ... since I see that we are also not making that much progress in other TFs as well 11:44:54 q+ 11:44:54 ack dape 11:45:02 ack McCool 11:45:17 mm: I think we should not block work, but we should still motivate work with requirements and use cases, and document why we are doing things 11:45:43 q+ 11:45:55 ... I think we can parallelize it, but in the end, we need to connect everything to a use case 11:46:13 ack k 11:46:23 kaz: Agree again with Michael, which is also why we discussed with Ege coming up with a simpler template to make progress 11:46:32 dp: I also agree with that 11:46:49 ek: I think everyone is aligned 11:46:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:46:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:47:06 q+ 11:47:21 ... I think for the Scripting API, the desire is to just connect features to use cases, and then submit them afterwards 11:47:24 ack e 11:47:26 ack k 11:47:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:47:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:47:40 mm: That is fine, use cases do not need to come from outside the group 11:47:46 kaz: Ege also wants to discuss this in the TD call today 11:48:01 q+ 11:48:13 q+ McCool 11:48:15 q- later 11:48:15 mz: I think we don't need to explicitly think about Japanese versions of use cases 11:48:47 mm: Working with use cases is a lot of in general, so having a co-moderator for requirements is a good thing in general 11:49:17 ... so in the main call, we should make a call for a moderator and then give people three weeks to step up 11:49:42 ... then having a separate moderator will also make the work easier for you, Mizushima-san 11:50:05 q+ 11:50:21 mz: I think I would like to improve the progress as soon as possible, there are many, many options to do that 11:50:47 ... another co-moderator is an option and will probably also improve the situation 11:51:23 mm: I am a bit worried that use cases will fill up all of the time, so having another person for focusing on requirements will ensure that there is still work happening on requirements 11:51:47 s/happening on requirements/happening in that regard as well/ 11:52:11 ack m 11:52:11 mz: I am okay with calling for another moderator in the main call today 11:52:29 kaz: I would like to give a few comments: 11:52:34 ... agree with Michael again 11:52:58 ... also, please remember that the UC TF is the work of the whole WoT IG's responsibility 11:53:17 ... which is why Michael is making these suggestions, which I appreciate 11:53:54 ... also, we can consider the Japanese CG separately, and focus on the IG use cases here 11:54:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:54:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:54:26 mm: I will take some time to prepare the main call based on our results here today 11:54:54 q? 11:54:55 ack k 11:55:07 ... I adjusted the agenda of the main call and copied our resolution text there, which we can discuss under "Quick Items" 11:55:20 topic: AOB 11:55:46 q+ 11:56:13 mz: Next meeting is on September 4, I would like you all to review the new template. Please comment on the PR if you have anything to add 11:56:14 q+ 11:56:33 dp: Just noticed that the calendar does not reflect the cancellations yet 11:56:38 ... needs to be updated 11:56:49 ack dape 11:56:52 mm: We will clean it up today, Kaz and I will take care of it 11:57:06 ack d 11:57:07 ack k 11:57:16 kaz: We can quickly confirm the changes in the main call today, Michael and I will fix it 11:57:18 [adjourned] 11:57:22 [adjourned] 11:57:30 s/[adjourned]// 11:57:30 s/[adjourned]// 11:57:40 [adjourned] 11:57:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:57:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 11:58:48 McCool has left #wot-uc 12:22:46 EgeKorka_ has joined #wot-uc 14:24:36 Zakim has left #wot-uc