IRC log of wot-td on 2024-08-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:03:55 [RRSAgent]

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14:03:59 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-irc

14:04:03 [kaz]

meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 1

14:04:15 [kaz]

present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan

14:05:05 [kaz]

chair: Ege

14:05:55 [kaz]

agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#August_7_and_8%2C_2024

14:09:17 [kaz]

present+ Jan_Romann

14:10:49 [kaz]

present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima

14:11:14 [kaz]

present+ Daniel_Peintner, Kunihiko_Toumura

14:12:37 [JKRhb]

scribenick: JKRhb

14:12:42 [kaz]

scribenick: Michael_Koster

14:12:42 [tomo]

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14:13:01 [kaz]

s/scribenick:/present+/

14:13:05 [JKRhb]

topic: Agenda Review

14:13:10 [kaz]

rrsagent, make log public

14:13:12 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:13:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:13:22 [JKRhb]

ek: So today there is going to be this use case discussion

14:13:26 [JKRhb]

... but only a small one

14:13:41 [JKRhb]

... then we are going to talk about the initial connection topic

14:13:46 [JKRhb]

... and the backlog

14:13:46 [kaz]

i|So t|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#August_7_and_8%2C_2024 Agenda for today|

14:13:47 [mjk]

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14:14:01 [JKRhb]

... tomorrow, we are going to talk about the registry

14:14:07 [JKRhb]

topic: Minutes Review

14:14:12 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-td-minutes.html July-31

14:14:20 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:14:21 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:14:31 [JKRhb]

ek: Michael, Kaz, and I already had a look, you have probably also seen the email

14:14:39 [EgeKorka_]

q?

14:14:43 [JKRhb]

... I will now quickly scroll through them, let me know if you notice anything

14:14:57 [JKRhb]

... don't see any points being raised, minutes are approved

14:15:10 [JKRhb]

... thank you, Michael Koster, for taking the minutes last time

14:15:18 [JKRhb]

topic: TPAC

14:15:28 [luca_barbato]

luca_barbato has joined #wot-td

14:15:33 [JKRhb]

ek: I am not going to be present the first two weeks in September

14:15:49 [JKRhb]

... given that TPAC is quite close by, it would make sense to work on topics for TPAC

14:16:27 [JKRhb]

... we should discuss which topics we want to focus on. Should concentrate on registry requirements

14:16:32 [JKRhb]

... and use cases

14:16:48 [mjk]

q?

14:16:56 [JKRhb]

... we also have a TD slot at TPAC, so the question is what we want to discuss there

14:17:03 [JKRhb]

... there is also a tooling breakout

14:17:20 [JKRhb]

... already had a breakout day earlier this year

14:17:37 [cris]

cris has joined #wot-td

14:17:44 [JKRhb]

... could make sense to share our experiences with tools like LinkML and also invite the community behind it

14:18:28 [JKRhb]

... there is also a registry breakout, where we could share our experiences as well

14:18:35 [EgeKorka_]

q?

14:18:38 [JKRhb]

... does anyone think we can contribute something here?

14:18:45 [kaz]

q+

14:19:00 [JKRhb]

... does anyone object to these proposals?

14:19:19 [kaz]

ack k

14:19:30 [JKRhb]

kaz: You want to talk about registry-related topics, right? Would it make sense to involve PLH here?

14:19:44 [kaz]

s/PLH/Pierre-Antoine/

14:19:55 [JKRhb]

ek: Talked to him earlier this year, but then we did not follow up on that. Can continue the discussion

14:20:08 [EgeKorka_]

https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues

14:20:23 [JKRhb]

kaz: Maybe you can send him a reminder

14:20:24 [kaz]

s/registry-related/schema-related/

14:20:38 [JKRhb]

ek: (shows the tpac2024-breakouts repository)

14:21:05 [JKRhb]

... this is the repository where people can propose breakout sessions, everyone can make proposals here by the way

14:21:19 [kaz]

s|https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues|-">https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues|-> https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues TPAC 2024 Breakout proposals on GitHub|

14:21:23 [EgeKorka_]

q?

14:21:42 [JKRhb]

... if there are any aspects that you think need a wider audience you can either propose them in the wiki or on GitHub

14:21:51 [kaz]

[ @@@ Kaz will move the URL for the breakout proposal later ]

14:22:05 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:22:07 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:22:14 [JKRhb]

... I think one thing we can do so far is doing a summary of the work so far

14:22:25 [kaz]

present+ Luca_Barbato

14:22:29 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:22:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:23:02 [JKRhb]

... these two topics are promising, but something like initial connection might be more interesting for people within the TF

14:23:37 [kaz]

topic: TD

14:23:49 [kaz]

subtopic: Extracting Use Cases from TD GitHub Repository

14:24:18 [JKRhb]

ek: Thanks to the labelling work done before, we now have a nice list of issues

14:24:46 [JKRhb]

... that could be used for creating use cases, inserting them into the new "level 1" use case template

14:24:49 [kaz]

i|Thanks|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Selected+for+Use+Case%22 wot-thing-description issues with "Selected for Use Case" label|

14:25:06 [JKRhb]

... in the template, there is less information needed to submit a use case

14:25:41 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pull/300 wot-usecases PR 300 - New Use Case Template Proposal

14:25:46 [JKRhb]

... by filling out the template, we can collect information about our existing use cases and experience on working with the template, which we can use to improve the template

14:25:53 [JKRhb]

... can be seen as a test run

14:26:10 [JKRhb]

... this is why I want to go to the issue list and pick something "new", so to say

14:26:19 [kaz]

i|by filling|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/egekorkan-patch-6/.github/ISSUE_TEMPLATE/use-case-template.yml Preview of new "level 1" use case template|

14:26:34 [JKRhb]

... I wanted to ask if someone is motivated to pick something here and propose as a new feature using the template

14:26:41 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:26:42 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:27:24 [EgeKorka_]

q?

14:27:48 [JKRhb]

dp: I think some are somehow overlapping

14:28:23 [JKRhb]

... for example, actions with query and cancel looks rather broad

14:29:01 [kaz]

q+

14:29:08 [JKRhb]

ek: Better topics might be metaoperations, external JSON Schemas, binary encodings, ...

14:29:42 [JKRhb]

kaz: Maybe we can look into the identified issues one by one, but as Daniel mentioned, we can maybe look into the possible categories of issues later, seeing which ones are related

14:29:55 [JKRhb]

ek: I want to automate this as much as possible...

14:30:18 [JKRhb]

kaz: Yeah, we cannot do this today, but we can assign people and then have them look into related issues

14:30:37 [JKRhb]

ek: Seems like in the beginning of the list, there some of the bigger issues

14:30:46 [kaz]

s/cannot do this/cannot everything at once/

14:30:55 [JKRhb]

... for example, composed things, in which I think Michael Koster was interested

14:30:59 [kaz]

q?

14:31:01 [kaz]

ack k

14:31:18 [JKRhb]

mjk: Yeah, I am interested in that one and looking into a potential pattern

14:31:25 [JKRhb]

... are we assigning them right now?

14:31:42 [kaz]

i|Yeah|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1902 Issue 1902 - Evaluating composed Things as a work item

14:31:47 [JKRhb]

ek: Yeah, or tomorrow, since beginning with next week, there are not going to be TD calls for a while

14:31:56 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:31:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:32:04 [JKRhb]

... maybe one question is where the resulting Markdown document should go

14:32:30 [dape]

q+

14:32:32 [JKRhb]

... since we have not merged the Markdown-based template yet

14:32:58 [JKRhb]

... maybe we should just provide a prelimary template that can be used

14:33:14 [dape]

ack dape

14:33:20 [JKRhb]

... we can give that to people to do the test runs

14:33:45 [JKRhb]

... not sure about the simplest way to do this

14:34:08 [JKRhb]

... (creates an issue documenting what to do)

14:34:36 [JKRhb]

... what I will do after the call then is creating a Markdown document to list the chosen issues there

14:34:36 [kaz]

s/cannot everything/cannot handle everything/

14:34:39 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:34:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:34:54 [JKRhb]

... (adds the one by Michael)

14:34:56 [JKRhb]

q+

14:35:29 [JKRhb]

ack j

14:35:46 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/757 Issue 757 - Reconsider security & securityDefinitions being mandatory

14:36:12 [JKRhb]

jr: I can look into the issue related to security and securityDefinitions being mandatory

14:36:28 [JKRhb]

... could be a simple one to start with

14:36:59 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/300 Issue 300 - Allow "security" to include both SecurityScheme objects and declared identifiers

14:37:03 [JKRhb]

ek: Looks like issue 300 is also related to this topic

14:37:15 [JKRhb]

... will add it to the list

14:37:29 [JKRhb]

... any other volunteers?

14:37:53 [JKRhb]

dp: I am willing to work on one, but I have doubts which one it should be

14:38:14 [JKRhb]

... I mean, there some that I created, like reading and writing, but I am not sure if they are pressing issues

14:38:29 [JKRhb]

... I can do it, though, if you think it could be relevant

14:38:48 [JKRhb]

ek: That might be related to the data mapping topic, so it could make sense to work on that

14:39:11 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/875 Issue 875 - Should it be possible to indicate whether writing a property returns set value?

14:39:19 [JKRhb]

... by the way, I am not taking anything intentionally, since I won't be available, otherwise I would do it

14:39:28 [JKRhb]

... (shows the resulting issue)

14:39:33 [JKRhb]

... so this the list we have now

14:39:45 [JKRhb]

... looks good for now to collect experience with the template

14:39:49 [kaz]

s|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/875 Issue 875 - Should it be possible to indicate whether writing a property returns set value?||

14:40:00 [kaz]

i|That might be|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/875 Issue 875 - Should it be possible to indicate whether writing a property returns set value?|

14:40:07 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:40:08 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:40:27 [kaz]

q+

14:40:34 [JKRhb]

... please as critical as you can with the template, since there will also be people from the outside that will use it, although they are going to have at least some WoT knowledge

14:40:56 [kaz]

ack k

14:41:07 [JKRhb]

kaz: Ege, you will copy the template from the UC repository to the TD repository, and the people assigned can use the topic to work on their issues, right?

14:41:13 [JKRhb]

ek: Exactly

14:41:21 [JKRhb]

... thanks to the volunteers, by the way

14:41:31 [JKRhb]

subtopic: Initial Connection

14:41:41 [kaz]

i|Ege, you|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/egekorkan-patch-6/.github/ISSUE_TEMPLATE/use-case-template.yml level-1 template preview|

14:41:43 [JKRhb]

ek: There is a simple PR to look at for this topic

14:41:43 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:41:44 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:42:26 [JKRhb]

... this PR moves the related planning folder to the TD repository, since it is the one where the work on this topic is going to happen

14:42:30 [EgeKorka_]

q?

14:42:37 [kaz]

s/template preview/template preview from wot-usecases PR 300 to be copied/

14:42:39 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:42:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:42:46 [JKRhb]

... also added some temporary files to the .gitignore file

14:42:53 [JKRhb]

... don't expect that much discussion here

14:43:00 [JKRhb]

No objections to merging, PR is merged

14:43:20 [JKRhb]

ek: Then the next point is going to the hackmd document which I showed last time

14:43:25 [EgeKorka_]

https://hackmd.io/@egekorkan/r1lXdjwtA

14:43:59 [JKRhb]

... the goal here is to have some more discussion and then move it to the TD repository eventually, where it definitely belongs

14:44:13 [JKRhb]

... there is one important question that has become relevant in this context

14:44:20 [JKRhb]

... (shows the hackmd document)

14:44:55 [JKRhb]

... does anyone want to look at the past proposals? Otherwise we could just go to the most recent proposal

14:44:55 [JKRhb]

No objections to that

14:45:01 [JKRhb]

ek: This proposal is based on the old proposal 5

14:45:38 [JKRhb]

... here we have a connections object, which can be referenced from the forms and a top-level connection field

14:45:57 [JKRhb]

... this is quite similar to the way security is being handled

14:46:34 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:46:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:46:42 [JKRhb]

... (recovers a JSON listing that got accidentally deleted in the hackmd document)

14:47:34 [kaz]

i|There is a simple PR|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2037 PR 2037 - Moving Planning folder|

14:47:36 [JKRhb]

... as I showed here, this was question that came up already yesterday, raised by Michael Koster

14:47:37 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:47:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:47:49 [JKRhb]

... we are not just putting the connection information here

14:48:03 [JKRhb]

... which is why we came up with the name "common elements"

14:48:10 [kaz]

s|https://hackmd.io/@egekorkan/r1lXdjwtA|-">https://hackmd.io/@egekorkan/r1lXdjwtA|-> https://hackmd.io/@egekorkan/r1lXdjwtA Ege's proposal on Hackmd|

14:48:12 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:48:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:48:20 [JKRhb]

... so this raises the question what we should include in this object

14:48:48 [JKRhb]

... so far, I also put things here that are usually assumed the default in the TD specication

14:48:58 [JKRhb]

... for example the content type

14:49:20 [JKRhb]

... but I also now put the default HTTP method here, as an example.

14:49:54 [JKRhb]

... but that signals that this is an HTTP connection, for MQTT we would need some kind of different definition for initial connections

14:50:29 [JKRhb]

... in this example, we have a default top-level HTTP connection

14:51:28 [dape]

q+ to sanity checks

14:52:23 [JKRhb]

... the interesting part that we can see here now is that, since we don't need the broker in the form, the href field can be an empty string

14:52:39 [JKRhb]

... this might change if we revisit the URI scheme

14:53:03 [JKRhb]

... in the HTTP form, the HTTP method is left out since POST is defined as that globally

14:53:16 [EgeKorka_]

q>

14:53:19 [EgeKorka_]

q?

14:53:29 [JKRhb]

... so this is a more complex example, which we can discuss in the feature

14:53:46 [JKRhb]

dp: We need to be careful here, Ege, since we are adding a lot of complexity here

14:54:00 [JKRhb]

... with the reference and the sanity checks

14:54:12 [luca_barbato]

q+

14:54:29 [JKRhb]

... we need to be careful not to complicate things for implementations and also keep things readable for humans, especially with regard to defaults

14:54:46 [JKRhb]

ek: I had a similar feeling, wanted to limit-test here a bit

14:55:27 [mjk]

q?

14:55:40 [JKRhb]

... we should have some kind of block for global definitions, which then don't need to be repeated all the time. Although this approach can make it a bit complicated for simple TDs

14:55:53 [dape]

ack dape

14:55:53 [Zakim]

dape, you wanted to sanity checks

14:56:29 [JKRhb]

... need to compare the result of TDs using the two different approaches

14:56:41 [JKRhb]

lb: Concept-wise, it can be a lot simpler than this

14:57:01 [JKRhb]

... the connection objects at the top are basically forms

14:57:22 [JKRhb]

... so the parser only needs a way to compose a final href from the different hrefs defined in the TD

14:57:44 [JKRhb]

... so implementation-wise, this is not that difficult, as long as we make the connections not too different from a form

14:58:01 [JKRhb]

... but the problems that we have with this are the following

14:58:13 [JKRhb]

... 1. We also have the concept of links

14:58:34 [JKRhb]

... they can currently leverage having base, so the question is what happens in this scenario

14:58:39 [JKRhb]

... that is one part

14:58:55 [JKRhb]

... the other one is, how can we really leverage a form?

14:59:57 [JKRhb]

... The problem here is that we can have different verbs that cannot be mapped

15:00:47 [JKRhb]

... so if you have different verbs for reading and writing, you need to duplicate the form

15:01:44 [JKRhb]

... the problem is that with the defaults for the forms you are forcing the operation types to always be expanded, so they cannot be an array

15:02:16 [JKRhb]

ek: But that is already a problem in the current TD specification

15:02:33 [JKRhb]

lb: But this proposal only exacerbates the problem here

15:02:49 [dape]

q+ to about *extending* the form ... not replacing

15:03:08 [JKRhb]

... so it would be nice if we could have a vocabulary term for the TD that can unify the different approaches here

15:03:38 [JKRhb]

... so we need to be referring when the form is referring to its own default, but that is not that big of a deal

15:03:48 [JKRhb]

... in the end, though, I like the approach

15:04:36 [JKRhb]

... the only part that might be worth thinking about that we might not get away with is the specification whether the connection is an initial one or not

15:05:02 [JKRhb]

... so a better term than "initial" might be "resuable"

15:05:29 [JKRhb]

... and instead of a boolean I would specify a number, indicating how many seconds the connection can be reused

15:05:53 [JKRhb]

ek: Thank you for the opinions, I would open a PR with the changes in the TD repository

15:06:52 [JKRhb]

dp: Treating these as a form is fine for me in general, but if it comes to security, I am wondring if we should support expanding instead of replacing here

15:07:11 [JKRhb]

... that would increase the complexity by a lot

15:07:46 [JKRhb]

... in the example, you might want to add another security mechanism in the form at the bottom of the hierarachy

15:08:01 [dape]

ack dape

15:08:01 [Zakim]

dape, you wanted to about *extending* the form ... not replacing

15:08:08 [JKRhb]

lb: At the moment, we don't have this kind of mechanism anywhere

15:08:54 [JKRhb]

ek: In the example, the security is replaced. But we can discuss this going forward

15:09:14 [JKRhb]

... will add that via a PR to the planning folder to have more discussions on that as well

15:09:29 [kaz]

q+

15:09:29 [JKRhb]

topic: AOB

15:09:59 [kaz]

ack l

15:10:00 [kaz]

ack k

15:10:01 [JKRhb]

Nothing concerning the whole group

15:10:15 [kaz]

[adjourned]

15:10:53 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:10:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

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