12:58:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:58:44 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-matf-irc
12:58:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:58:45 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:58:50 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF August 7, 2024
12:58:50 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:58:58 <JJ> Meeting: MATF August 7, 2024
12:59:18 <JJ> agenda+ Success Criteria breakdown
12:59:23 <JJ> agenda+ 2.3.1 Three Flashes or Below Threshold - Level A
12:59:29 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.3 Focus Order - Level A
12:59:33 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.4 Link Purpose (In Context) - Level A
12:59:37 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.6 Headings and Labels - Level AA
13:01:06 <Illai> Illai has joined #matf
13:01:31 <Illai> +present
13:01:46 <AlainVagner> present+
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13:02:19 <Joe_Humbert> present+
13:02:33 <Illai> present+
13:03:21 <Mick> Mick has joined #MATF
13:03:26 <Mick> +present
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13:03:59 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
13:04:03 <julianmka> present+
13:04:03 <Karla> Karla has joined #matf
13:04:04 <quintinb> present+
13:04:39 <Karla> > present+
13:04:40 <GleidsonRamos> GleidsonRamos has joined #matf
13:04:45 <Karla> present+
13:04:51 <julianmka> scribe julianmka
13:04:57 <JJ> Scribe: julianmka
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13:05:12 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:05:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Success Criteria breakdown -- taken up [from JJ]
13:05:13 <RacheleD> present+
13:05:14 <Carolina> present+
13:06:51 <julianmka> JJ: Concern with several SCs marked as greater variations is about how to test - e.g. images of text
13:07:04 <JJ> Move 1.4.5 to Minimum Variantions
13:07:09 <Mick> +1
13:07:12 <AlainVagner> +1
13:07:13 <julianmka> +1
13:07:15 <RacheleD> +1
13:07:17 <Karla> +1
13:07:17 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:07:26 <quintinb> +1
13:07:29 <Illai> +1
13:07:31 <Joe_Humbert> +1
13:07:35 <Aashutosh> Aashutosh has joined #matf
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13:08:17 <Devanshu> present+
13:08:32 <JJ> Move 2.4.4 to Minimum Variations?
13:08:36 <AlainVagner> +1
13:08:37 <julianmka> +1
13:08:38 <RacheleD> +1
13:08:47 <Karla> +1
13:08:49 <Mick> +1
13:08:50 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:08:51 <quintinb> +1
13:09:00 <Joe_Humbert> -1
13:09:18 <JJ> Success Criteria breakdown doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n6_OtcWEjJOGmqFVhK7gJGk9K7FfXhpP/edit
13:09:51 <JJ> q+ Joe, about 2.4.4
13:09:58 <JJ> ack Joe
13:10:09 <JJ> q- about 2.4.4
13:10:40 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Cites WCAG2ICT noting that "link" does not mean literal link in native mobile. Several SCs we're considering need explanatory notes.
13:11:00 <Aashutosh> present+
13:11:09 <quintinb> Is this providing a distinction between a link and some other system action?
13:11:13 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: E.g. for link purpose - in native mobile, there are links, buttons, and also "double tap to activate" elements
13:11:53 <julianmka> +1 to Joe's point about what "link" means in native mobile context
13:12:00 <Aashutosh> In mobile apps, everything is interactive. So like Link purposes, the meaningful labels would be necessary for everything?
13:12:33 <quintinb> Just a note: we should also consider touch target sizes re:links or "text as innteract-able element"
13:12:54 <Aashutosh> +1 quintinb
13:12:59 <Illai> +q
13:13:49 <Aashutosh> off-topic, can we enforce the minimum size requirements to the ads that are playing inside the apps?
13:13:58 <Aashutosh> close buttons*
13:14:49 <JJ> ack Illai
13:14:53 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:15:01 <Jamie> present+
13:15:41 <quintinb> +1 Illai
13:15:48 <julianmka> Illai: Link purpose has the same issue as headings and labels - using them properly might need a note.
13:15:54 <julianmka> JJ: How so for headings?
13:16:06 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:16:42 <julianmka> Illai: Intent and Understanding docs refer to semantic headings and labels, but those don't have parity in native mobile compared to HTML.
13:16:48 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:17:36 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Are we coming up with our own definitions of headings & labels?
13:18:58 <julianmka> Illai & Joe_Humbert: Clarify Illai's comment was about how labels & headings relate to other content, not _what_ they are.
13:19:53 <julianmka> JJ: Need to be careful about modifying definitions and such. If SCs are very close to applying directly, let's not over-complicate.
13:21:32 <Jamie> We are looking at 2.2 now too?
13:21:36 <JJ> Move 2.4.11 to Minimum Variations? Large, Medium or Minimum?
13:21:39 <julianmka> JJ: 2.4.11 Focus Not Obscured - is this a medium variation? It could use more about techniques, but seems to apply fairly directly.
13:21:40 <Mick> The floating button exception will be tricky in mobile to adhere to
13:21:41 <Mick> Large
13:22:13 <Aashutosh> This should be large considering horizontal scrolling requirements as well
13:22:22 <Joe_Humbert> minimum
13:22:31 <quintinb> I would argue this needs to be as important as keyboard
13:22:47 <Joe_Humbert> i changed my mind medium
13:22:51 <AlainVagner> medium
13:22:52 <julianmka> medium
13:22:56 <GleidsonRamos> medium
13:22:57 <Karla> medium
13:23:04 <Jamie> thank you. I am having microphone issues.
13:23:07 <Carolina> medium
13:23:10 <Illai> medium
13:23:29 <julianmka> JJ: Keep 2.4.11 in medium variation category.
13:24:35 <julianmka> JJ: Summarizes Joe_Humbert's comment about need for advisory techniques on how to apply 1.2.3.
13:24:46 <quintinb> minimum
13:24:55 <Jamie> minimum
13:24:57 <JJ> Keep 1.2.3 at Minimum Variations?
13:25:06 <julianmka> +1
13:25:09 <RacheleD> minimum
13:25:09 <AlainVagner> minimum
13:25:09 <Jamie> minimum
13:25:12 <quintinb> minimum
13:25:15 <Illai> minimum
13:25:16 <julianmka> minimum
13:25:17 <Mick> minimum
13:25:20 <GleidsonRamos> minimum
13:25:22 <Karla> minimum
13:25:22 <JJ> quintinb+jamie first minimum comment are part of 1.2.3
13:25:22 <Joe_Humbert> minimum
13:25:26 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:25:32 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:25:38 <quintinb> It's more important that it happens than how it happens
13:26:54 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Do we need to give an enhanced definition for "alternative for time-based media" given differences between web and native mobile contexts?
13:27:08 <Jamie> Joe_Humbert at this time I would be ok with the time based description
13:27:48 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: In original definition, does "document" need to be clarified for mobile context?
13:27:56 <Jamie> we could review in a 2.0 version of the document
13:28:09 <julianmka> +1 to Jamie
13:28:49 <quintinb> +1 Joe_Humbert
13:28:57 <Jamie> we need a 1.0 version for AD since this is not being done in most places anyway
13:29:02 <AlainVagner> +1 to Jamie
13:29:04 <quintinb> They aren't doing something else
13:29:21 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Most apps aren't supporting audio descriptions/alternatives -- are they doing something else or nothing at all?
13:29:33 <Jamie> no, I meant we need a first version that outlines the basics
13:29:41 <Jamie> JJ
13:30:44 <julianmka> @JJ: We'll add AD definition to backlog for future work.
13:31:07 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:31:09 <quintinb> I think orientation is far more important on mobile
13:31:21 <julianmka> JJ: Orientation applies directly but there are lots of implementation considerations.
13:31:22 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:31:41 <JJ> Keep 1.3.4 at Minimum Variations?
13:31:49 <Jamie> minimum
13:32:22 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Are we saying that apps need to rotate and content needs to be there, or does it have to work _well_?
13:32:30 <julianmka> q+
13:32:32 <Jamie> implementation is more important than web but the SC as written applies
13:32:40 <julianmka> q-
13:33:35 <Jamie> +1 to julianmka
13:33:47 <quintinb> +1 julianmka
13:33:51 <julianmka> JJ: Basic support I look for is "is the content there and does it work"
13:34:10 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:34:19 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:34:20 <julianmka> julianmka: Because orientation is such a difficult thing to get people to accept, I only look for bare content and functionality.
13:34:21 <quintinb> There isn't great recent research on orientation - I found some stuff from 2012 that was like "yeah people do it"
13:35:00 <Aashutosh> most of the elderly have their phones mounted in horizontal orientation on their carts
13:35:02 <Jamie> q+
13:35:48 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: It doesn't need to look nice - I'm thinking about scrolling, is it much harder to get to elements because they are distributed differently? Is users' ability to reach things compromised? Users who need landscape orientation usually have other barriers to access already, are more severely affected.
13:35:51 <julianmka> +1 to Joe's comment
13:36:18 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:36:48 <AlainVagner> low vision is also another reason to use landscape, in combination with a bigger font size
13:37:25 <quintinb> +1 Jamie
13:37:28 <julianmka> Jamie: In my experience, size of sticky footer and navigation bars was a factor. Perhaps a note to consider content dominance -- what takes up the most space when in landscape? Could also be part of a note in reflow.
13:37:50 <quintinb> I can't read most websites because of sticky ... looks for a nice word ...
13:38:10 <Joe_Humbert> very good point Jamie some of my concerns and what you brought up may fall under a different SC
13:38:15 <Aashutosh> quintinb in design world we call it frozen
13:38:18 <julianmka> Jamie: Could include a note for small screens in particular, in both portrait and landscape.
13:38:22 <julianmka> q+
13:38:55 <julianmka> Jamie: Probably good to stick with minimum language now, but enhance it later.
13:38:56 <quintinb> ty Aashutosh!
13:40:03 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:40:57 <julianmka> julianmka: Points out new feature for iOS this year to collapse navbars into side menu
13:41:26 <Aashutosh> julianmka is there a resource we can refer to?
13:41:34 <julianmka> JJ: Another issue for landscape users -- keyboard often blocks the input
13:41:43 <JJ> Keep 1.3.4 at Minimum Variations?
13:41:45 <julianmka> Aashutosh I'll find it after the meeting and put in Slack
13:41:48 <Jamie> minimum
13:41:51 <julianmka> minimum
13:41:52 <Joe_Humbert> Minimum
13:41:59 <AlainVagner> minimum
13:42:01 <Mick> minumum
13:42:03 <Illai> +1
13:42:03 <Carolina> minimum
13:42:04 <Karla> minimum
13:42:09 <Devanshu> minimum
13:42:43 <quintinb> minimum
13:42:50 <julianmka> JJ: 2.5.7 probably needs more guidance for mobile.
13:44:25 <julianmka> JJ: We can add some examples of gestures that fall into this SC. WCAG definition is pretty clear.
13:44:53 <Aashutosh> q+
13:45:11 <JJ> ack Aashutosh
13:45:17 <julianmka> JJ: We can document implementation techniques for mobile like accessibility actions.
13:46:00 <Illai> Maybe it worth referring multipoint touch gestures which are unique to touch devices
13:46:10 <julianmka> Aashutosh: I've encountered issues where swipe gestures to complete payment is required for security reasons (does the user really want to pay?). This is common in India/SE Asia.
13:46:27 <quintinb> Surely you can add a dialog for a non-swipe action
13:47:12 <julianmka> Aashutosh: Clarifies that the interaction requires dragging across the full width of a bar, not a single swipe gesture.
13:47:18 <quintinb> +1 JJ
13:47:43 <julianmka> JJ: This could be handled in app settings - let users choose an alternative method.
13:47:52 <Aashutosh> +1 JJ
13:48:08 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:48:18 <julianmka> @Jamie
13:48:21 <JJ> q+ Jamie
13:48:25 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:48:43 <julianmka> s/@Jamie/That's why this SC exists, "swipe to pay" as the only way to confirm would be a violation of this SC.
13:49:28 <julianmka> Jamie: This SC is newer, could also be why this pattern is proliferating.
13:49:51 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:50:01 <Jamie> present+
13:50:24 <julianmka> JJ: We can document alternatives to dragging actions like swipe to pay.
13:50:25 <JJ> Keep 2.5.7 at Minimum Variations?
13:50:30 <julianmka> +1
13:50:30 <Jamie> minimum
13:50:34 <Mick> minimum
13:50:38 <Illai> +1
13:50:39 <Karla> minimum
13:50:50 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:51:34 <Joe_Humbert> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-dragging-movements
13:51:52 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: WCAG definition of "dragging" covers almost any gesture on mobile because it refers to "down" (i.e. touching screen) and "up" (i.e. lifting finger) events.
13:52:01 <Jamie> q+
13:52:17 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: This seems to apply to anything you do on mobile, this could be too broad to be usable.
13:53:07 <julianmka> JJ: Intent for 2.5.7 is clearer
13:53:07 <Jamie> q-
13:53:28 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: But Understanding documents are non-normative, only WCAG language is binding.
13:54:35 <JJ> ACTION: bring up "dragging movements" definition to AG WG
13:55:06 <julianmka> Good catch, Joe!
13:55:58 <julianmka> JJ: Where 2.5.7 has minimum variations might depend on outcome of the "dragging movement" discussion.
13:55:58 <AlainVagner> +1
13:56:05 <Mick> +1
13:56:05 <Jamie> minimum
13:56:07 <Illai> +1
13:56:08 <quintinb> minimum
13:56:09 <Karla> +1
13:56:11 <julianmka> +1
13:56:12 <Joe_Humbert> +1
13:56:34 <julianmka> s/Where/Whether
13:56:51 <Jamie> q+
13:56:57 <Jamie> q-
13:57:06 <Jamie> q+
13:58:17 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:58:17 <julianmka> JJ: 3.2.6 Consistent Help may have large variations because of "sets of software".
13:58:19 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:58:26 <quintinb> Is no help considered consistent?
13:59:19 <julianmka> Jamie: SC says that for screens that have help, put it in the same place. It does not mandate that every screen should have help.
13:59:55 <quintinb> +1 (and ty) Jamie
14:00:11 <JJ> Move 3.2.6 to Large, Medium or Minimum?
14:00:22 <julianmka> Jamie: "Set of software" language makes this and other "consistent" SCs tricky.
14:00:28 <Jamie> medium
14:00:33 <julianmka> medium
14:00:37 <AlainVagner> medium
14:00:41 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:00:44 <quintinb> minimum
14:00:45 <Illai> medium
14:00:51 <Mick> Large for constancy with others
14:00:58 <Devanshu> medium
14:01:36 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: Seldom see help available across multiple screens in apps.
14:01:38 <Joe_Humbert> medium
14:02:10 <julianmka> JJ: Help can be context-dependent. Easier to solve on the web, handling in apps can be more complicated.
14:02:39 <julianmka> JJ: Definition of "sets of software" and "screens" vs "pages" may affect whether this is a larger variation.
14:04:19 <JJ> Thanks for scribing julianmka !
14:04:55 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:04:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been present, AlainVagner, Joe_Humbert, Illai, julianmka, quintinb, Karla, RacheleD, Carolina, Devanshu, Aashutosh, Jamie
14:05:33 <JJ> present+ Aashutosh
14:05:49 <JJ> present+ GleidsonRamos
14:06:14 <JJ> present+ Mick
14:06:23 <JJ> present+ quintinb
14:06:36 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:06:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:09:11 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:09:11 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-matf-actions.rdf :
14:09:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: bring up "dragging movements" definition to AG WG [1]
14:09:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/08/07-matf-irc#T13-54-35