14:24:31 RRSAgent has joined #coga 14:24:35 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/05-coga-irc 14:24:35 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:24:36 Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:24:36 clear agenda 14:26:08 agenda+ Updates with task requests and actions 14:26:08 14:26:29 agenda+ Rain stucture recruting 14:26:57 agenda+ AG update and AT issue 14:27:19 agenda+ Supported Decision Making - Issue Paper 14:27:19 14:27:19 working meeting 14:48:51 lisa has joined #coga 14:48:57 q? 14:49:01 clear q 14:49:06 ack next 14:49:11 agenda? 14:51:44 regrets+ Becca 14:57:57 kirkwood has joined #COGA 14:58:47 Rain has joined #coga 14:59:19 tburtin has joined #coga 14:59:28 scribe+ Eric_Hind , lisa 14:59:47 present+ 15:01:00 present+ 15:01:19 present+ 15:01:34 Jan has joined #coga 15:01:53 present+ 15:02:36 present+ 15:02:39 scribe+ Jan 15:02:44 Jennie has joined #coga 15:02:52 present+ 15:02:58 next item 15:03:47 Lisa: We will be discussing the structure and AG updates - are there any other updates? 15:05:26 David: The latest version of the Collaboration Tools Accessibility User Requirement (CAUTR) - COGA has provided quite a lot of feedback, but we still have time to provide additional feedback, so we might want to schedule a working meeting to provide feedback. 15:05:39 q? 15:05:54 DavidSwallow has joined #coga 15:05:59 present+ 15:06:09 https://www.w3.org/TR/ctaur/ 15:06:17 Lisa: We could possibly use next week's meeting to review the document 15:06:18 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12RwLzTomMxD1r5ooU06l4SKtU59XKA48mEUhlXbvAOE/edit?gid=0#gid=0 15:06:28 julierawe has joined #coga 15:06:33 present+ 15:06:33 Collaboration Tools Accessibility User Requirements (CTAUR) - https://www.w3.org/TR/ctaur/ 15:07:21 CORRECTION: Abbreviation noted above under David's original comment should be CTAUR and not CAUTR 15:08:15 David: If we could use an existing meeting slot, that would be helpful. 15:09:01 Lisa: Let's try to see if we can get people to meet at a different time because we have a lot to accomplish before our publishing deadline. 15:10:03 Julie: Tomorrow's AG meeting will be spent working on an assertion. 15:10:15 next item 15:10:15 Lisa: Yes, we have that on the agenda for later in the meeting. 15:10:42 Rain: We are approved to move forward with the form. 15:10:46 * Applause! Yeah Rain! 15:11:13 Document with approved study plan: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rm7VOuCmj2i0deLIqNEyHoTlMYV5A08YQqzvGrKZODs/edit 15:11:21 Rain: Our study plan and everything anyone needs for supporting people in participating is in this document. 15:12:08 Rain: Our goal was to start recruiting today. I will be sending out notices on various networks and through various groups. I am asking everyone else on this call to please do the same. 15:12:59 Rain: We start recruiting today through August 13th - on August 12th, we Rain may ask people to push recruiting if we don't have enough participants. 15:13:29 Friendly bit.ly link: https://bit.ly/content-usable-study 15:13:50 Google forms shortlink: https://forms.gle/zi4nn4e4cbdSLPdM9 15:13:54 (Same destination) 15:14:44 Rain: All of the links and information for recruiting are listed under "Recruiting and study session plan" in the UXR Qualitative Studies for Structure V2 in August 2024." 15:14:44 Q+ 15:14:46 RRSAgent, publish minutes 15:14:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/05-coga-minutes.html lisa 15:15:11 Rain: There are several different communication templates. 15:15:25 rains text is at: Document with approved study plan: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rm7VOuCmj2i0deLIqNEyHoTlMYV5A08YQqzvGrKZODs/edit 15:15:54 Rain: Unfortunately, in the recruiting form, we wanted to find out if someone is a person with lived experience, but we had to strike that question because of privacy laws. 15:16:28 ack l 15:18:12 Lisa: I would be concerned that if I came here and I wasn't someone involved with accessibility, but was someone with lived experience, I would think that you didn't want me because I would think that this would be for academic purposes. 15:18:15 +1 to LS Personal interest in Cognitive Accessibility ? 15:18:29 Lisa: Could we add to other? 15:18:49 Rain: I could add personal interest in cognitive accessibility 15:19:58 Lisa: Could we have a call early next week to go over this with Rachael to discuss what needs to be done to get everything ready. 15:20:09 Rain: We have a call scheduled for August 22nd. 15:20:31 Lisa: You and mental health have a subgroup call this Thursday. 15:20:46 Lisa: Maybe send out reminders to Rachael, Laurie, and Shawn 15:21:18 q? 15:21:23 Rain: I think we're good because we have a subgroup call this Thursday and another meeting on August 22nd. I think our first studies will happen the week after our August 22nd meeting. 15:21:39 rains text is at: Document with approved study plan: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rm7VOuCmj2i0deLIqNEyHoTlMYV5A08YQqzvGrKZODs/edit 15:22:39 Fantastic!!!! 15:22:47 Rain: On the form, we have an audio recording that is linked from the form - this is thanks to Tiffany for her suggestion. 15:23:13 https://www.w3.org/2024/08/05-coga-minutes.html 15:23:34 Lisa: All of the wording and the links to Rain's document will also be in the minutes. 15:23:35 RRSAgent, publish minutes 15:23:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/05-coga-minutes.html lisa 15:23:48 next item 15:24:14 https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/104 15:24:31 Lisa: julierawe - The reason I thought you might need time on the agenda was related to AT - could we remind people about what the issue is? 15:25:37 Julie: I just shared a link in the GitHub thread - if people have thoughts they want to share, today is the day . 15:26:21 Julie: The difficulty with the thread is that it seems to talk about AT, but in comments, things tend to shift to AI. 15:27:42 Julie: I think we should be clear that we should not defer to AI, but not sure if this debate is including this or not. 15:28:19 Julie: The last example given is to not get in the way of Optical Character Recognition (OCR) from generating alternative text. 15:28:48 q? 15:28:58 * Julie - can you confirm the deadline to contribute? 15:29:18 https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/104 15:29:57 Lisa: I just added a comment on it - what people can do is possibly like Lisa's comment or add other comments about the limitations of AI. 15:31:06 q+ 15:31:11 Julie: I think you're coming down on the side that the author should be responsible because AI is not quite good enough, but my question is whether this debate is about this or about AT. 15:32:55 what about users having the ability to flag ai mistakes? has that been discussed? 15:33:21 Lisa: It seems like they are talking about a few things, but one of them seems to be about AI - we need to be really clear about only using AI that has been tested and that the author is the only one who can properly test AI against their content to verify that it works. If it does, then the author could link to the AI. The author needs to be 15:33:21 responsible for their recommendation related to AI support. 15:33:42 q? 15:33:47 ack next 15:33:52 q+ to ask about deadline 15:33:55 Lisa: I don't think COGA could make a comment - individual members need to comment because we don't have time to come to consensus. 15:35:32 q+ 15:35:34 Rain: Before we start putting comments in, I think we need to acknowledge that this is about more than AI. I think we still need to make authors responsible for content. We should also make sure that we are not getting in the way of AT, which may also include AI - including people who use translation tools, people who use PCS (picture communication 15:35:34 symbols) - there are a lot of ways people can get in the way of AT, so we just need to be very careful. 15:37:08 EA: I am in total agreement with Rain - I am working with AI in the context of AAC - although most AT delivered as a service is now incorporating AI and a lot of funders believe that this will just work, unfortunately, AI still does not have the knowledge it needs to be accurate and helpful in all contexts. 15:37:12 ack next 15:37:13 Jennie, you wanted to ask about deadline 15:37:28 Jennie: What is the deadline is to contribute? 15:37:46 https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/104 15:37:50 ack next 15:37:53 Julie: I think they would ideally like it at the end of the day today - 11:59 p.m. Boston time for comments. 15:38:46 John: One thing that is difficult with respect to AT is that we're boarding on redefining terms - AT is products and systems that enhance living and working with people with disabilities - we are putting our own language together that I think will make this difficult. 15:39:00 Julie: AG or COGA are making this difficult? 15:39:27 Q? 15:39:41 John: Everyone - essentially, any technology that assists a person with a disability is AT 15:40:05 AT: “Assistive technology (AT): products, equipment, and systems that enhance learning, working, and daily living for persons with disabilities. “ 15:40:43 * I am participating asynchronously with the section labels group. 15:40:44 Julie: I think it people are curious about assertions, tomorrow's meeting will be interesting. Also, if you are part of a subgroup sprint, the meetings have been changed to different times. The implied meaning subgroup will be meeting on Tuesday mornings at 9:00 a.m. EST. 15:41:08 next item 15:41:23 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g9N-_3l-d6t0ppZcIIZ98k00x7ZE7h3ayq0OCX9Ycu4/edit 15:42:22 Lisa: We are trying to publish the editors drafts - we were hoping to bring Supported Decision Making to TPAC, but it isn't ready. 15:42:52 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cu_qVP1WBz2TbsrAjLbbeb55RAlJmu9kfHamriL1Ocs/edit?gid=1686096268#gid=1686096268 15:43:03 Lisa: I have followed up with people who agreed to write sections and we also need sources that we need to note in our sources spreadsheet. 15:44:07 Lisa: You can also put references in as a footnote, but would prefer to put the reference inline that references the database. 15:44:42 Lisa: We were going to work on this during the meeting, but we won't have enough time during this call. I am wondering how to move forward with this work. 15:45:06 Lisa: Should we try to fill in the document or not? 15:45:41 Roy_ has joined #coga 15:46:11 Lisa: I think we should look at it either next week or the week after and decide on whether it will go into the editor's draft of not. Rain's work is probably the priority. We could put in an editor's note to say that this is in draft, but that it's not ready, unless we have people who want to volunteer to get it past the finish line. 15:46:29 Q? 15:46:56 Lisa: In its current state, we won't be able to present it at TPAC because it's not ready. Is it worth publishing with a lot of editor's notes so that we can talk about it at TPAC? 15:47:13 q+ 15:47:41 John: I think there's a lot that is part of this and it could be gotten over the hurdle to get it ready for TPAC if we could get another working session on it and/or have other eyes on it. 15:48:07 +1 15:48:09 Lisa: Maybe we should schedule a couple of hours to work on it. Does that sound doable? 15:48:14 _1 15:48:17 +1 15:48:18 q- 15:48:23 +1 15:48:57 Lisa: I will try to make a working meeting. I will send out some potential times that might work. 15:49:41 look at issue https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/325 15:49:57 discussed at >https://www.w3.org/2024/07/22-coga-minutes.html. His comment may be brourder . user perspective also needed 15:50:41 Lisa: There's an issue #325 that is very similar to the issue related to the role of AT. We might be able to come to consensus on how we should respond. 15:51:33 q+ 15:53:10 Lisa: I would like to suggest that we discuss it in the introduction section - use of language - we should say where we stand with it if there's a summarizing tool that is good, where can you get it, or what can you do as a starting point. 15:54:30 Lisa: We could say for plain language that if you keep sentences short, summaries work better - we could experiment with this on objective-by-objective language. 15:54:45 Lisa: Do we want to discuss AT overall or do this objective-by-objective 15:54:47 Q? 15:54:56 ack next 15:55:01 q+ 15:55:15 scirbe+ lisa 15:55:31 scribe+ julie 15:56:13 think we should be using the language of “author-provided summary” 15:56:41 Jan I sent email on July 22 detailing my concerns 15:57:00 Jan Should we raise concerns about AI pattern by pattern or objective by objective? 15:57:29 Jan What are the existing browser supports? 15:57:53 Jan We could structure by browser and by assistive technology level? 15:58:04 Jan Do you want me to resend this email to everyone? 15:58:17 lisa It seems almost like it should be an issue paper 15:58:26 lisa We should probably do it with AG and WAI in general 15:58:35 lisa It should be part of a unified thing 15:58:47 lisa I will offer to bring it up on the facilitators' calls 15:58:48 q+ author summary is needed now that ai is presence like ;analog’ clocks are needed once digital became mainstream 15:59:18 “author summary” is needed now that ai is presence like ;analog’ clocks are needed once digital became mainstream 15:59:38 lisa I think we should approach AG and other facilitators so we take a similar approach to these issues 15:59:59 lisa Once we have decided on what approach we want and define all the terms, it's like a mini issue paper and then integrate them 16:00:15 I have to leave for another meeting 16:00:21 q- 16:00:38 Jan Do you want me to put this in a google doc as a starting point for people to add questions? 16:00:49 RRSAgent, publish minutes 16:00:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/05-coga-minutes.html lisa 16:21:44 kirkwood has joined #COGA 16:51:01 kirkwood has joined #COGA 17:01:39 kirkwood has joined #COGA 18:45:20 Roy_ has joined #coga 19:20:09 kirkwood has joined #COGA 20:23:23 kirkwood has joined #COGA 21:17:49 Roy_ has joined #coga 21:28:16 kirkwood has joined #COGA 21:39:07 Roy_ has joined #coga 21:48:46 kirkwood has joined #COGA 22:34:32 Roy_ has joined #coga