13:47:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
13:47:41 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/08/02-rdf-star-irc
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13:48:28 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20240802T100000/
13:48:29 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:48:29 <agendabot> agenda+ LPGs and "asserted" triples
13:48:30 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-Star Semantics Task Force
13:48:32 <TallTed> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:48:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
13:48:36 <TallTed> rrsagent, make logs public
13:49:06 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/08/01-rdf-star-minutes.html
13:49:08 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/08/08-rdf-star-minutes.html
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13:57:40 <thomas> thomas has joined #rdf-star
14:01:41 <TallTed> present+ pfps, TallTed, thomas
14:02:37 <TallTed> present+ Souri
14:03:51 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
14:03:57 <Souri> present+
14:04:45 <TallTed> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Aug/0005.html
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14:09:00 <Souri> "present" in graph vs. "asserted (to be true)" in graph
14:10:00 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
14:11:03 <enrico> present+
14:11:15 <AndyS> present+
14:11:57 <TallTed> Zakim, open item 1
14:11:57 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- LPGs and "asserted" triples -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:18:00 <Souri> (v1) -[e:p]-> (v2) => :e rdf:asserts <<( :v1 :p :v2 )>> .
14:20:23 <Souri> multi-edge=> (v1) -[e:p]-> (v2),  (v1) -[e2:p]-> (v2) => :e rdf:asserts <<( :v1 :p :v2 )>> . :e2 rdf:asserts <<( :v1 :p :v2 )>> .
14:21:01 <gkellogg> present+
14:21:49 <Souri> +1 to such reasoning not being in RDF
14:22:20 <thomas> q+
14:22:32 <enrico> ack thomas
14:24:41 <enrico> :e rdf:asserts <<( :v1 :p :v2 )>>.  |= : v1 :p :v2.
14:24:47 <enrico> :a rdfs:subClassOf :b.  :b rdfs:subClassOf :c.  |=  :a rdfs:subClassOf :c.
14:27:03 <Souri> :countryA rdf:asserts <<( :potus45 rdf:type :Villain )>> . :countryB rdf:asserts <<( :potus45 rdf:type :Angel )>> . Automatic inclusion of the asserted triple-terms as triples in the graph could cause issues. We are going into a different scope.
14:27:14 <AndyS> Will rdf:asserts be a sub-property of rdf:reifies? Which makes query easier for the user to ask for all info that refers to a triple via it's triple term.
14:28:13 <gkellogg> +1 rdf:asserts is a sub-property of rdf:reifies which entails the triple term is also assserted in the graph.
14:31:35 <enrico> +1 :a rdfs:subClassOf :b.  :b rdfs:subClassOf :c.  |=  :a rdfs:subClassOf :c.
14:31:41 <enrico> ops forget
14:31:55 <enrico> +1 rdf:asserts is a sub-property of rdf:reifies
14:40:11 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-and-LPGs
14:40:51 <thomas> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Jul/0109.htmlhttps://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Jul/0109.html
14:41:56 <thomas> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Jul/0109.html
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14:42:17 <TallTed> s|https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Jul/0109.htmlhttps://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Jul/0109.html||
14:42:26 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:42:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:57:19 <Souri> My preference is to keep rdf:asserts and rdf:reifies as unrelated properties (instead of having a subproperty relationship). Instead of "upgrading" a triple-term from "reified" to "asserted" (or "downgrading" from "asserted" to "reified"), one can replace an asserted triple-term with a reified one or vice-versa, if needed, using SPARQL
14:57:19 <Souri> DELETE-and-INSERT.
15:00:44 <AndyS> INSERT { ?x rdf:states ?T } WHERE { ?x rdf:reifies ?T . ?s ?p ?o }
15:08:21 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:08:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:13:01 <AndyS> Discussion on 2 properties rdf:assert and rdf:reifies  or 3 properties rdf:assert, rdf;describes and rdf:reifies
15:13:49 <AndyS> s/rdf;describes/rdf:describes/
15:14:01 <Souri> I am okay with rdf:states replacing rdf:asserts to avoid confusion with the idea of "present in graph" as assertion.
15:16:43 <Souri> LPG edge with annotation=> (v1) -[e:p {prop=val} ]-> (v2) <==> RDF1.2=> :e rdf:states <<( :v1 :p :v2 )>> . :e :prop :val .
15:19:42 <AndyS> or (syntax wise)  :v1 :p :v2 ~:e {| :e :prop :val  |} .
15:24:48 <AndyS> s/{| :e :prop :val  |}/{| :prop :val  |}/
15:25:13 <AndyS> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:25:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/02-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
15:36:07 <thomas> i’m trying to make sense of today’s meetings results.
15:36:16 <thomas> is the following a possible consensus (that would need more thinking, to be sure):
15:36:19 <enrico> \forall x,y. works-for(x,y) -> emp(x) \and company(y)
15:36:25 <thomas> 1) rdf:states rdfs:subPropertyOf rdf:reifies
15:36:33 <thomas> 2) SPARQL will find rdf:stated triple terms when queried for rdf:reified triple
15:36:40 <thomas> 3) the annotation syntax is mapped to rdf:states, not rdf:reifies
15:36:47 <thomas> 4) any properties that want to more specifically describe without stating will have to be defined outside of RDF
15:36:56 <thomas> 5) actual entailment, e.g. rdf:states _entails_ the triple from the triple term it refers to, is impossible in RDF
15:37:11 <thomas> right?
15:37:54 <Souri> 111 | john | companyA | 100K, 222 | john | companyA | 200K
15:38:18 <TallTed> I don't think this meeting has "results". We've talked about a lot of things, with very sparse notes.
15:38:52 <AndyS> yes to (1) , (2) is not so simple
15:39:19 <Souri> :e111 rdf:states <<( :john :worksFor :A )>> . :e222 rdf:states <<( :john :worksFor :B )>> . :e111 :sal 111K . :e222 :sal 200K .
15:39:31 <AndyS> (3) maybe - it has pros and cons.
15:40:21 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:40:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:40:48 <thomas> @AndyS (3) would depend on (2) to happen
15:43:06 <Souri> :e111 rdf:states <<( :john :worksFor :A )>> . :e222 rdf:states <<( :john :worksFor :A )>> . :e111 :sal 111K . :e222 :sal 200K .
15:48:36 <Souri> CORRECTED=> :e111 rdf:states <<( :john :worksFor :A )>> . :e222 rdf:states <<( :john :worksFor :A )>> . :e111 :sal 100K . :e222 :sal 200K .
15:48:38 <AndyS> Quite - that's building an entailment into SPARQL.
15:49:17 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:49:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:58:26 <TallTed> Zakim, bye
15:58:26 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been pfps, TallTed, thomas, Souri, enrico, AndyS, gkellogg
15:58:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
15:58:35 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
15:58:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items