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13:03:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:03:57 <lisa1> agenda?
13:03:57 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:04:13 <lisa1> clear agenda
13:04:53 <lisa1> agenda+ proposal rashmis
13:05:17 <lisa1> agenda+ editing voice paper
13:05:29 <rashmi> content usable V2 edits https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xnoNFwfjJZbfadFiU-qOW49n4-gODbd_4ff5UDyYFTM/edit
13:06:04 <lisa1> Agenda+ Beccas safety and wellness editing
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13:06:59 <julierawe> present+
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13:07:48 <lisa> next item
13:08:45 <rashmi> content usable V2 edits https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xnoNFwfjJZbfadFiU-qOW49n4-gODbd_4ff5UDyYFTM/edit
13:08:45 <lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xnoNFwfjJZbfadFiU-qOW49n4-gODbd_4ff5UDyYFTM/edit#heading=h.g7dpsvf7n14j
13:33:20 <lisa> next item
13:33:25 <lisa> q?
13:33:30 <lisa> ack next
13:33:33 <lisa> q?#
13:33:37 <lisa> next item
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13:34:22 <julierawe> present+
13:34:27 <julierawe> https://docs.google.com/document/d/10K7PzhauK6WUNmMUXfbdYAiPInkFYsVSLQTiA-rlHKA/edit
13:52:08 <rashmi> q+
13:53:50 <lisa> ack next
13:54:08 <B_Monteleone> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VxJ0X8dC6dtL3Fm26_8XsuscGaSRR2Hr2YFgMaQeD0k/edit
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14:59:23 <julierawe2> zakim, start meeting
14:59:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:59:25 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:59:30 <julierawe2> chair: julierawe
14:59:47 <julierawe2> Meeting: WCAG 3 coordination/Clear language subgroup
15:00:03 <julierawe2> date: 01 aug 2024
15:00:13 <julierawe2> regrets: EA
15:00:19 <julierawe2> zakim, clear agenda
15:00:19 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:00:38 <julierawe2> Agenda + Card-sorting exercise for "Text and Wording" section of WCAG 3
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15:00:54 <julierawe2> Agenda+ Plain-language recommendations for WCAG 3 subgroups?
15:01:13 <julierawe2> Agenda+ AG debate about author vs user agent
15:02:21 <julierawe2> present+
15:02:34 <JohnRochford> present+
15:02:40 <Rain> Rain has joined #coga
15:02:46 <Rain> present+
15:02:48 <kirkwood> present+
15:03:21 <julierawe2> agenda next
15:03:26 <julierawe2> next agenda
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15:05:11 <tburtin> present+
15:05:50 <Jan> Jan has joined #coga
15:06:06 <Jan> present+
15:07:49 <julierawe2> The goal of the card-sorting exercise is to suggest more logical subsections to use in the "Text and wording" section of WCAG 3
15:08:16 <julierawe2> Rain I'm not sure if the card-sorting tool is accessible to users with screen readers
15:08:35 <julierawe2> Rain Also have option to use spreadsheet instead of card-sorting tool
15:09:01 <Rain> Study address: https://study.uxtweak.com/cardsort/HoyhuymkyQAGK3CF3iM5I
15:09:35 <julierawe2> Rain Enter your email address—any address will work
15:09:44 <julierawe2> Rain Password is coga (all lowercase) but
15:10:55 <julierawe2> Rain The intro explains the purpose of the exercise and also includes link to the spreadsheet if you prefer to do the card-sort in a spreadsheet instead of in this tool
15:11:43 <julierawe2> Rain The tool shows the 20 or so outcome cards on the left
15:12:22 <julierawe2> Rain The right side of the tool shows dark boxes with the existing categories that the AG chairs have proposed as subsections
15:12:37 <julierawe2> q+
15:12:50 <julierawe2> Rain You can drag an outcome into a bucket
15:14:26 <julierawe2> julierawe2 We can create new buckets like "Straightforward writing"
15:15:07 <julierawe2> Rain You can drag an outcome to an empty bucket and then you can name that new category
15:15:15 <julierawe2> Rain You can leave other buckets empty
15:15:35 <julierawe2> Rain The other card-sorting option is this spreadsheet
15:15:58 <Rain> Sheet version: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lt1QHFSiIla3EGTQU_nZFCgVL1tPUst-avXnCTk2JVg/edit?usp=sharing
15:16:38 <julierawe2> Rain If you use the sheet, I will put it into the other card-sorting tool so we can look at everyone's suggestions together
15:17:27 <julierawe2> Rain If using the spreadsheet, choose a tab that says "[Replace with your name]" and rename it with your name
15:18:14 <julierawe2> Rain The top 12 rows are the categories—the first six are AG's suggestions. There are also rows so you can suggest new categories.
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15:19:21 <julierawe2> Rain Drag an outcome row up the category you want it to be in
15:19:28 <LenB> present+
15:19:37 <julierawe2> julierawe2 So dragging up the rows won't erase the categories?
15:19:44 <julierawe2> Rain No, it won't get erased
15:20:30 <julierawe2> Rain It's only 20 outcomes
15:21:45 <julierawe2> JohnRochford I most likely won't be able to do either of these methods. I will try the spreadsheet method first
15:22:07 <julierawe2> Rain Tiffany suggested just putting in your notes about which category you would use for each outcome
15:23:12 <julierawe2> kirkwood The language of the sections does not seem logical
15:23:36 <julierawe2> kirkwood I would like to see "Clear content," "Clear structure"
15:23:52 <julierawe2> kirkwood I don't understand Risk Statements or Text appearance and smeantics
15:25:25 <kirkwood> clear visual appearance
15:30:04 <julierawe2> JohnRochford Do we want to do this feedback by person? Do we want to do it as a group?
15:30:06 <Rain> q+
15:30:56 <julierawe2> Rain When you have something this complicated, we're each going to come with very different perspectives
15:31:18 <julierawe2> Rain If we do all the work as a group, people will not put forward their ideas, which might spart a more creative solution
15:31:35 <julierawe2> Rain If we start individually, then we can look for patterns or trends within the group
15:32:01 <julierawe2> Rain We can talk about approaches we hadn't considered and also note when everyone tended to do the same thing versus everyone did it differently
15:32:09 <julierawe2> JohnRochford That makes sense
15:32:23 <julierawe2> JohnRochford I think I'm going to struggle with the task because of the inaccessibility
15:32:39 <julierawe2> JohnRochford Maybe I could do it with someone else like Jan or John K or Julie
15:32:54 <julierawe2> Jan I'm happy to set up a time when we can do it together
15:33:06 <julierawe2> kirkwood I would love to be able to do it, but I really cannot categorize things
15:33:18 <julierawe2> kirkwood I could throw everything into one or the other
15:33:58 <Jan> +1 to JohnK's concern about the names of the buckets - bad data in / bad data out.
15:34:15 <Jan> q+
15:34:37 <julierawe2> Rain It's set up as hybrid. If we want to start with a blank slate, we would need a different link
15:34:57 <julierawe2> Rain It's hybrid meaning those existing categories are there but you can also add your own
15:36:23 <julierawe2> julierawe2 Is it too hard to ignore the existing buckets? Or it helpful to see the existing suggestions as we think about new ones to create?
15:36:30 <julierawe2> kirkwood There's so much overlap here
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15:36:46 <Frankie> present+
15:38:21 <julierawe2> Rain I am in the middle of creating a simple google doc that you can use as well
15:38:42 <julierawe2> julierawe2 It would be OK to say you only think there should be 3 buckets
15:39:08 <julierawe2> tburtin It would be helpful to know the intent behind the existing buckets
15:39:28 <julierawe2> Jan I agree with Kirkwood's concerns. I think the categories are too granular.
15:39:39 <julierawe2> Jan I wonder why AG created so many different categories.
15:40:00 <julierawe2> Jan If we leave open for everyone to create lots of new categories, I'm not entirely sure this will be a good use of our time.
15:40:02 <kirkwood> +1 to Jan
15:40:36 <julierawe2> Jan I'm a fan of what John K just say: "Clear language," "Clear structure," "Clear visual presentation," the end.
15:40:55 <Jan> q-
15:40:59 <kirkwood> +1 to Jan
15:41:20 <Rain> Google doc version (make a copy): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vn0rouV9Vv5dBCzbpwPk_Ixo3V0I6DmSLBSwlOabJsc/edit
15:41:23 <kirkwood> present+
15:41:53 <julierawe2> Rain Make a copy of the document, review the patterns listed, think about how you would categorize them, and then move the outcomes into those categories
15:42:09 <julierawe2> Rain And then share with Rain and Julie
15:42:20 <julierawe2> Rain This is very much about the brainstorming of what those categories should be.
15:43:30 <kirkwood> I’d put numbers in ‘language’
15:45:14 <julierawe2> julierawe2 Is everyone comfortable spending 1 hour working on this indvidually before we come back together?
15:45:18 <julierawe2> LenB Yes
15:45:21 <Jan> +1 to spending an hour on sorting before the next meeting
15:45:40 <julierawe2> Rain I'm happy with everyone skipping the spreadsheet and card-sort tool and instead everyone can use the google doc version
15:45:55 <Rain> Google Doc version (simplest): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vn0rouV9Vv5dBCzbpwPk_Ixo3V0I6DmSLBSwlOabJsc/edit?usp=sharing
15:46:28 <julierawe2> Tiffany and Len will use the spreadsheet
15:46:46 <julierawe2> JohnRochford I can't get to that link
15:46:55 <Rain> Google Doc version (simplest): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vn0rouV9Vv5dBCzbpwPk_Ixo3V0I6DmSLBSwlOabJsc/edit?usp=sharing
15:48:37 <julierawe2> Can use any of the 3 methods. I will share out deadline for early Septmeber
15:49:05 <julierawe2> next agenda
15:49:11 <julierawe2> q?
15:49:20 <julierawe2> q-
15:49:24 <Rain> q-
15:49:28 <julierawe2> next agenda
15:49:34 <julierawe2> next agenda
15:49:41 <julierawe2> Skip this item
15:49:46 <julierawe2> next agenda
15:50:03 <julierawe2> take up agenda 3
15:50:23 <julierawe2> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/104
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15:53:32 <julierawe2> kirkwood How would you characterize what the controversy is?
15:54:56 <tburtin> q+
15:55:25 <julierawe2> julierawe2 What should WCAG 3 require authors to do versus not blocking AT from doing?
15:56:02 <julierawe2> tburtin I wasn't seeing in the github link. I didn't immediately see AI—are you saying an AI aspect of AT?
15:56:42 <julierawe2> julierawe2 My sense is people are using "AI" as a subset of "AT"
15:57:01 <julierawe2> tburtin I'm very concerned about AI—we're getting there, but we're not there yet
15:57:04 <Jan5> q+
15:58:01 <Jan5> q-
15:58:45 <julierawe2> Jan5 I want to +1 what Tiffany and John K said about AI is not necessarily able to generate meaningful context. This could be very harmful, particularly in very high-stakes setting.
15:59:14 <julierawe2> Jan5 I've seen where auto-generated alt text can work well in math where you have structured meaning, such as a certain type of graph with a certain type of name.
15:59:32 <julierawe2> Jan5 But even when it does a pretty good job, the only person who knows the meaning and intent is the author.
15:59:44 <julierawe2> Jan5 We need to be careful about not putting too much faith into what AI can do.
16:00:05 <kirkwood> +1 to “intent and meaning of author” needs to be taken into account
16:01:42 <julierawe2> Thank you, Rain, for creating the different card-sorting options!
16:01:48 <julierawe2> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/01-coga-minutes.html julierawe2
16:02:17 <julierawe2> present+
16:02:23 <julierawe2> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/08/01-coga-minutes.html julierawe2
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