13:03:36 RRSAgent has joined #wot-profile 13:03:41 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-irc 13:10:25 meeting: WoT Profile 13:11:09 mjk has joined #wot-profile 13:11:20 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Luca_Barbato, Ben_Francis, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan, Michael_Koster, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Tomoaki_Mizushima 13:11:27 chair: Luca 13:11:37 rrsagent, make log public 13:11:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:11:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz 13:13:42 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Profile_WebConf#Profile_-_Jul_31th%2C_2024 13:14:06 scribe: dape 13:14:49 TOPIC: Minutes review 13:14:57 -> https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-wot-profile-minutes.html July-17 13:15:45 LB: Talked about patch w.r.t. out-of box interop 13:15:56 ... showed notes of previous meetings 13:16:04 Tomo has joined #wot-profile 13:16:14 ... Ben explained what should be a profile and what not 13:16:24 ... Koster seemed to have different ideas 13:16:33 ... would like to take this topic up again 13:16:44 LB: Any objections? 13:16:53 ... none -> Minutes approved 13:17:17 q+ 13:17:30 TOPIC: Profiles as Ecosystem descriptors 13:17:58 EK: Luca, can you explain overall concept 13:18:11 LB: Let me try to summarize 13:18:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:18:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz 13:18:30 ... least amount of profiles... greenfield (Ben's position) 13:19:09 ... other opinion, any people greenfield is others people brownfield (Koster's position) 13:19:48 q+ 13:19:58 LB: Are we able to use our framework (or way of thinking) for greenfield or other ecosystems also 13:20:13 q- 13:20:18 MK: greenfield vs brownfield is adequate framing 13:20:41 ... in bindings we have different protocols like HTTP and CoAP 13:21:06 .. but we have also matter with a different protocol (e.g. Matter) 13:21:27 ... I think profile might need its own protocol 13:21:37 q+ 13:21:52 ... profiles for ecosystems also? 13:22:03 ... not sure about difference between profile and binding 13:22:06 q+ 13:22:38 MK: protocol binding should be focused on protocol ... rest in profile 13:22:41 q? 13:22:45 ack mjk 13:22:48 ack mjk 13:23:09 EK: in eco systems there is also data modelling 13:23:43 ... no out-of the box interop if we can't decide on temperature format etc 13:24:02 MK: I was thinking there other problems also 13:24:14 ... useful to have industrial IOT data-model 13:24:30 ... like temperature standardization 13:24:47 sebastian2 has joined #wot-profile 13:25:20 q? 13:25:25 ack e 13:25:57 LB: We will have TD2 to describe what is used in profile 13:26:05 ... currently not the case for TD1.1 13:26:16 ... profile collections of bindings 13:26:31 ... at the same time you will have constraints 13:26:52 ... a profile is going to tell what a thing can support/implement 13:27:06 ... like a toolbox we can pick of 13:27:08 q+ 13:27:38 LB: we don't have consensus on numbers and overlap of toolboxes 13:27:48 q- 13:27:58 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-profile 13:28:17 q? 13:29:08 q? 13:29:11 ack d 13:29:21 q+ 13:29:33 DP: Totally agree, we should subsetting TD2.0 13:29:35 ack dape 13:29:56 BF: Profile should constraint not extend 13:30:10 ... distinction greenfield vs brownfield 13:30:25 ... profile vs bindings ... 13:30:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:30:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz 13:30:57 ... prescriptive vs. descriptive 13:31:05 sorry, I have to move to another meeting. br 13:31:15 BF: we should have as many bindings as possible but as few profiles as possible 13:31:19 q+ 13:31:29 s/sorry, I have to move to another meeting. br// 13:31:33 ... e.g. don't see benefit of having Matter profile 13:31:47 ... Matter provides already guarantees 13:32:26 q+ 13:32:31 BF: I don''t think we should many profiles 13:32:32 ack benfrancis 13:32:54 Kaz: I agree with Koster and Ben 13:33:10 q+ 13:33:16 ... anyhow, have difficulties to understand current position of profile 13:33:25 ... expectations for profile? 13:33:30 ack kaz 13:34:20 ... concrete use-case .. 13:34:34 LB: The conflicting point is not clear 13:34:56 ... just using bindings is not satisfactory 13:35:30 ... profiles towards pre-existing ecosystems 13:35:35 s/concrete use-case ../would see what is expected for Profile and what is expected for Binding based on some concrete use case including several Things and Consumers from several different Ecosystems./ 13:35:38 ... so we can get more people on board 13:35:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:35:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz 13:36:00 ... concern: too many profiles cause fragmentation 13:36:15 ... new adopters might get confused 13:36:42 ... small set of profiles is useful for them 13:36:55 q? 13:37:14 ... we need a way to onboard other organizations 13:37:19 q? 13:37:54 EK: distinction to be made... 13:37:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:37:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz 13:38:04 ... small number of profiles 13:38:22 ... vs. bindings like Matter, OPCUA etc 13:38:40 ... they are out and should be usable 13:38:50 s/OPCUA/OPC UA/ 13:38:51 ... in building automation no one will pick HTTP 13:39:05 ... most likely BACnet will be used 13:39:22 ... but they don't have thing description format 13:39:49 ... we want to have guidance .. which leads to data model ... like temperature 13:40:15 ... guidance to beginners is a valid point 13:40:23 ... anyhow, spec is already too long 13:40:28 q? 13:40:31 ack EgeKorkan 13:41:05 BF: I do understand the problem of integrating new platforms 13:41:17 ... but I think profiles are the wrong tool for it 13:41:44 ... we should focus on use-cases and requirements 13:41:59 ... for profiles in the future 13:42:05 ... were I created a PR 13:42:08 ack benfrancis 13:43:03 LB: Besides the term we can use -- platform binding.. collection of other bindings .. for me is a profile 13:43:52 ... we can differentiate between profiles for beginners and for other systems ... technically it is the same 13:44:17 q+ 13:44:48 ... new comers vs up-graders 13:45:50 q+ 13:46:03 BF: platform binding vs. profile 13:46:42 q+ 13:46:57 ... my proposal to solve overlap: move protocols binding into set of defaults to bindings 13:47:34 q+ 13:47:34 ... profile becoming sub protocol ... for a given IOT platform 13:47:37 ack b 13:47:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:47:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz 13:48:19 q+ 13:48:27 q- 13:48:29 q+ 13:48:29 MK: I am not proposing to make the sub protocols 13:48:43 s/IOT/IoT/ 13:48:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:48:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz 13:49:02 ... could be one of the constraint vector 13:49:18 ... component of testing/certification 13:49:31 ... not in scope of WoT 13:49:31 q? 13:49:35 ack mjk 13:50:09 MK: We should offer convenience people are used in other platforms like BACnet 13:50:20 ... offering device standard 13:50:27 ... or enabling consumers 13:51:31 ... interop across ecosystems 13:51:47 ack mjk 13:52:03 EK: w.r.t. platform bindings 13:52:19 ... e.g. HTTP, JSON 13:52:33 ... further like JSON has to look like this.... 13:52:55 ... this is the other aspect 13:52:56 ack EgeKorkan 13:53:26 LB: My proposal. TD2.0 should remove sub-protocol 13:53:54 .... sub protocol is result of process 13:53:59 ack luca_barbato 13:54:33 LB: we have to interop/bride between eco systems 13:55:24 ... with semantics we can match Modbus values on the wire 13:55:29 q? 13:55:48 ... temperature Fahrenheit converting to Celsius 13:56:01 ... should be expressive enough 13:56:28 ... consumer should not have to implement everything 13:56:37 ... would be way to complex 13:57:03 q+ 13:57:32 BF: Profiles becoming device standard 13:57:39 ... very unlikely 13:58:00 ... more likely profiles used by bridging 13:58:17 ... cloud service monitor buildings 13:58:35 ... one profile using HTTP better than a hundred 13:59:08 ... IoT is different .. but there is value in bridging 13:59:13 q+ 13:59:27 ... btw, sub protocol keyword needed for web-socket 13:59:42 LB: subprotol should be removed 14:00:00 ... should become first class citizen.. it is a "protocol" 14:00:15 ack luca_barbato 14:00:18 ack luca_barbato 14:00:24 q+ 14:00:28 q- 14:00:28 ack benfrancis 14:00:40 EK: Ben' use case with gateways 14:00:52 s/Ben'/Ben's/ 14:01:03 ... nice written TDs should be sufficient 14:01:03 q+ 14:01:08 ack EgeKorkan 14:01:15 acl luca_barbato 14:01:46 LB: We have to decide whether we want to continue discussion in 2 weeks 14:02:03 ... a layer of warranting interop 14:02:22 ... thing models in a more extensive way could be used 14:02:47 ... maybe too constraining 14:03:01 ... will try to put down were we have consensus 14:03:14 q? 14:03:17 ack luca_barbato 14:03:55 [adjourned] 14:04:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:04:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz