12:51:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:51:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-matf-irc
12:51:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:51:25 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:51:48 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF July 31, 2024
12:51:48 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:51:55 <JJ> Meeting: MATF July 31, 2024
12:52:06 <JJ> present+
12:52:15 <JJ> regrets+ AlainVagner
12:53:22 <JJ> regrets+ KarlaRubiano
12:53:28 <JJ> regrets+ AudreyManiez
12:53:50 <JJ> agenda+ Guidance steps
12:54:09 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.5 Images of Text - Level AA
12:54:14 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.11 Non-text Contrast - Level AA
12:54:19 <JJ> agenda+ 2.2.1 Timing Adjustable - Level A
12:54:25 <JJ> agenda+ 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - Level A
13:00:16 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #matf
13:00:34 <JJ> regrets+ Devanshu
13:02:14 <Mick> Mick has joined #MATF
13:02:14 <Carolina> Carolina has joined #MATF
13:02:19 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
13:02:24 <quintinb> present+
13:03:11 <GleidsonRamos> GleidsonRamos has joined #matf
13:03:34 <Joe_Humbert> present+
13:04:08 <Mick> present+
13:04:13 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
13:04:21 <julianmka> present+
13:04:46 <Carolina> present+
13:04:49 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:04:54 <Jamie> present+
13:06:15 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:06:15 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Guidance steps -- taken up [from JJ]
13:07:03 <quintinb> We now have all success criteria on Github available for async feedback
13:07:51 <quintinb> @JJ would like to chat about the SC breakdown
13:09:32 <quintinb> In the drive there is a breakdown file where we can sort issues by complexity of adjustment for mobile.
13:09:46 <JJ> Link to SC breakdown: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n6_OtcWEjJOGmqFVhK7gJGk9K7FfXhpP/edit
13:10:41 <Mick> q+
13:10:58 <JJ> ack Mick
13:11:52 <quintinb> JJ please don't move things, rather leave a comment
13:12:03 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:12:03 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 1.4.5 Images of Text - Level AA -- taken up [from JJ]
13:12:58 <quintinb> q+
13:13:33 <quintinb> quintinb: Does this mean that logo's do not need alt text?
13:13:50 <quintinb> Or should it just be the name of company?
13:13:52 <Mick> q+
13:13:54 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:14:33 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:14:46 <Joe_Humbert> q-
13:14:55 <JJ> ack Mick
13:15:09 <quintinb> @JC to @quintinb 1.1.1 would still apply
13:15:39 <julianmka> q+
13:16:44 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:16:52 <quintinb> @JJ we need to put guidance on for testing purposes
13:17:52 <quintinb> julianmka - does text scaling apply? Are we creating a standard that is not necessarily seen on web
13:18:42 <quintinb> JJ feels it applies as is
13:18:46 <quintinb> +1
13:19:25 <quintinb> q+
13:19:33 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:19:51 <quintinb> What if the text is part of a background? It's decorative
13:20:25 <Jamie> q+
13:20:52 <quintinb> JJ then it does not apply
13:21:14 <quintinb> ack Jamie
13:22:17 <quintinb> Jamie - We should use WCAG as a base reference - we shouldn't discuss issues that are already on here
13:23:10 <quintinb> Jamie we should consider system settings as well
13:23:46 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:24:07 <quintinb> Jamie we should add techniques for testing for people who don't have access to code
13:24:41 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:25:12 <Mick> + 1 to what Jamie said. A lot of my thinking around this is very much a testing perspective and providing techniques for native. Totally agree with keeping things simple and not complicated things.
13:25:45 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert: Thinks that a future goal should be for us to ask for manufacturers to give us guidance for testing with no source access
13:26:54 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:26:54 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 1.4.11 Non-text Contrast - Level AA -- taken up [from JJ]
13:28:27 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:28:44 <Mick> +1 to the inactive component exception being problematic.
13:28:51 <Jamie> did we skip 1.4.10 REflow?
13:30:48 <Joe_Humbert> +1 to the inactive component exception being problematic
13:31:18 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:31:57 <JJ> 1.4.10 discussion @Jamie: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/4
13:32:19 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert: About not modified by the author. This doesn't seem to be defined - what does that mean? For example, if the background colour is changed but not the component, does that not impact the contrast?
13:33:18 <julianmka> Agree with that - thinking about iOS default palette and text styles that don't have sufficient contrast
13:34:40 <quintinb> +1 we should not rely on manufacturers being accessible. We need to hold them accountable too
13:35:11 <quintinb> @JJ we should create a separate ticket about user agent
13:35:13 <JJ> ACTION: Github issue for User-Agent discussion
13:35:23 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:35:23 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 2.2.1 Timing Adjustable - Level A -- taken up [from JJ]
13:36:14 <Jamie> 1.4.10 is pretty much as written anyway
13:38:02 <quintinb> q+
13:38:23 <quintinb> I have this somewhere, but should we mention examples where system settings allow for this, and should we give guidance on doing it in app or surfacing from settings?
13:38:32 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:39:02 <julianmka> q+
13:39:48 <Jamie> +1 to @JJ to clarify how this timing adjustable applies to toast/ snackbar or future other components/ alerts as a general concept
13:41:25 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:41:26 <quintinb> +1 for guidance on "system" level things like snackbars
13:41:54 <JJ> ACTION: Github issue for dealing with system settings when testing (toast length, high contrast mode, etc.)
13:42:11 <quintinb> julianmka app makers should meet requirements without system settings being required
13:42:19 <Joe_Humbert> +1 to developer responsibility without system settings
13:42:29 <Jamie> q+
13:42:45 <quintinb> adding more settings doesn't solve that either
13:43:50 <Joe_Humbert> Quintin can you provide a link to the timing developer technique you mentioned?
13:43:52 <quintinb> But I do agree that we should not rely on OS manufacturers
13:43:53 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:44:03 <quintinb> Sure Joe, after scribing :)
13:44:19 <Jamie> q+
13:44:35 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:44:40 <quintinb> I found it quickly Joe_Humbert: https://support.google.com/accessibility/android/answer/9426889?sjid=18325240353724858189-EU
13:45:05 <quintinb> Jamie: Users do expect system settings to be applied throughout apps
13:45:27 <Joe_Humbert> thank you Quintin
13:46:07 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I can send you adb commands and where it exists in the ecosystem as well - if you like, but after :)
13:46:16 <quintinb> +1 Jamie
13:46:37 <julianmka> Agree - developers should respect system settings, and if those settings are not set, then provide an accessible experience out of the box
13:46:53 <quintinb> Jamie system settings should form a baseline expectation, but developers maintain responsibility for their app
13:48:14 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:48:14 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - Level A -- taken up [from JJ]
13:48:28 <quintinb> So many failures
13:48:34 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:49:03 <julianmka> I have to drop for a work meeting. Thanks, y'all!
13:49:23 <quintinb> adb control for ttr Joe_Humbert: settings put secure accessibility_interactive_ui_timeout_ms [MILLIS] % millis are additive - they add extra time
13:49:40 <Joe_Humbert> thankx Quintin
13:50:37 <Joe_Humbert> q-
13:50:45 <quintinb> q+
13:50:59 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:52:16 <quintinb> I think there should be guidance given the dominance of video on mobile - it should stay paused if the same element type is paused
13:52:52 <Mick> +1 quintinb
13:52:55 <GleidsonRamos> q+
13:53:20 <quintinb> Either every element should be pause-able or at least respect settings
13:53:40 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:53:57 <JJ> q- quintinb
13:54:26 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert: Just to raise: Android and iOS treat it differently when they refer to the setting - I wonder if iOS (reduce animations) is actually satisfactory
13:54:39 <quintinb> +1 Joe - is that actually stop animations?
13:54:54 <quintinb> I hate that terminaology - so vague
13:55:08 <Jamie> q+
13:55:35 <JJ> ack GleidsonRamos
13:55:50 <quintinb> GleidsonRamos should we save the user preference in app?
13:56:02 <quintinb> +1 GleidsonRamos yes I think there should be guidance on that
13:56:04 <Joe_Humbert> great question
13:56:31 <quintinb> GleidsonRamos should we sync app setting with OS setting?
13:56:38 <quintinb> +1 yes I think that is the way
13:57:22 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:57:22 <quintinb> JJ there is probably some guidance on this type of situation
13:58:05 <quintinb> Jamie: Just to clarify: there is a feature for reduce motion and auto play animated images - seems like apple has 2 settings
13:58:09 <Joe_Humbert> +1 jamie. maybe I was confused
13:58:35 <quintinb> We should probably be clear about what we want and let the OS sort themselves out
13:59:30 <quintinb> JJ any new agenda items?
13:59:45 <quintinb> JJ how do we deal with OS vs / system settings
14:00:10 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:00:17 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:00:30 <quintinb> quintinb: maybe we should just focus on the desired behaviour
14:00:49 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert: We should honour users system settings
14:00:53 <JJ> +1
14:00:54 <quintinb> +1 Joe_Humbert
14:02:24 <quintinb> JJ looking for someone to lead the meetings in Sep.
14:02:24 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert volunteers as tribute
14:03:17 <JJ> If anyone else wants to volunteer, please let me know
14:03:34 <Jamie> Jamie has left #matf
14:04:34 <JJ> (we could have different people lead meetings in September)
14:04:42 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:04:42 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been JJ, quintinb, Joe_Humbert, Mick, julianmka, Carolina, Jamie
14:04:50 <JJ> present+ GleidsonRamos
14:05:20 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:05:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:05:50 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:05:50 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-matf-actions.rdf :
14:05:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Github issue for User-Agent discussion [1]
14:05:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-matf-irc#T13-35-13
14:05:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Github issue for dealing with system settings when testing (toast length, high contrast mode, etc.) [2]
14:05:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/31-matf-irc#T13-41-54