IRC log of aria-apg on 2024-07-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:01:39 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/30-aria-apg-irc
18:01:48 [jugglinmike]
rrsagent, make log public
18:01:55 [jugglinmike]
Zakim, start the meeting
18:01:55 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:01:57 [Zakim]
Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:02:20 [jugglinmike]
Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force Weekly Teleconference
18:02:28 [jugglinmike]
present+ jugglinmike
18:02:31 [jugglinmike]
scribe+ jugglinmike
18:03:21 [jugglinmike]
present+ jongund
18:03:35 [jugglinmike]
present+ ariellagilmore
18:03:43 [Jem]
Jem has joined #aria-apg
18:03:46 [jugglinmike]
present+ Jem
18:03:52 [Jem]
make minutes
18:03:56 [jugglinmike]
present+ Oliver_Habersetzer
18:04:01 [Jem]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/30-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
18:04:27 [Jem]
/me thanks so much
18:05:34 [Jem]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/July-30%2C-2024-Agenda
18:08:31 [arigilmore]
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18:08:49 [jugglinmike]
present+ arigilmore
18:08:55 [jugglinmike]
present+ Matt_King
18:14:18 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
18:14:29 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Next meeting: August 6
18:14:37 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Any requests for change to agenda?
18:14:46 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Hearing none, we'll move forward as planned
18:14:53 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Publication planning
18:15:05 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We plan to do a publication next week
18:15:09 [OliverH]
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18:15:24 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: howard-e will be performing the deployment
18:16:36 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: The changes that we are hoping to include in this release are listed in the following GitHub Milestone: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/32
18:17:01 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We may not finish #2991 in time for the release https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2991
18:18:52 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: But what we are still considering is the new patterns page filter, infrastructure for experimental examples, the fix to copying source code, the update to the "coverage and quality" report for the media-query tracking that jongund set up, and an update to the color viewer slider
18:19:37 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: After that, we'll want to choose a target date for a subsequent publication. I think we'd like a date before TPAC
18:19:58 [oliver]
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18:21:06 [Jem]
q+
18:21:26 [OliverH]
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18:21:37 [Jem]
to ask any criteria to review the high contrast settings.
18:23:09 [Jem]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/32?closed=1
18:23:25 [siri]
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18:23:43 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Sortable table change request
18:23:49 [jugglinmike]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3066
18:24:02 [Siri]
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18:24:08 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: This is just a change to punctuation. I think the reporter has good rationale, and as a screen reader user, I agree with the change
18:24:12 [Siri]
present+
18:24:58 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: In the sortable table, there is a caption for the table that's visual, followed by a comma, and then an off-screen phrase that says "column headers with buttons are sortable"
18:25:40 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: The reporter is just saying to take the comma out and put parenthesis around the final part since that would work better for translation and would make more grammatical sense
18:26:00 [jugglinmike]
arigilmore: That makes sense to me. I can write a patch for this
18:26:11 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Thank you! I'll assign this issue to you, then
18:27:38 [jugglinmike]
Topic: New skipto highlighting feature
18:27:54 [jongund]
https://skipto-landmarks-headings.github.io/page-script-5/
18:28:12 [jugglinmike]
jongund: I've added some new features to skipTo
18:28:27 [jugglinmike]
jongund: Now when you open the menu at the top, it says "skip to content option zero"
18:28:57 [jugglinmike]
jongund: I really appreciate Mark_McCarthy's feedback on this
18:29:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
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s/Mark_McCarthy/MarkMcCarthy/
18:29:25 [jugglinmike]
present+ MarkMcCarthy
18:29:59 [jugglinmike]
jongund: The library now highlights the target areas and automatically scrolls to them
18:30:19 [jugglinmike]
jongund: This is based on the implementation experience of others
18:30:41 [jugglinmike]
MarkMcCarthy: It looks great from what I'm seeing on my phone screen, and I'm sure it will look great on the desktop as well
18:31:16 [jugglinmike]
jongund: In addition to the page script, there is now a bookmarklet to install skipTo on any page
18:31:34 [jugglinmike]
jongund: If anyone here is interested in testing the library out on pages that they maintain, you now have a way to do it
18:31:52 [jugglinmike]
jongund: I'd like to also implement this as a browser add-on for each of the major browsers
18:32:33 [jugglinmike]
jongund: I'd also like feedback on the touch interface, which I just modified
18:32:51 [jugglinmike]
s/I'd also like/I'm also looking for/
18:33:48 [jugglinmike]
jongund: You can drag your finger around to navigate that way
18:34:02 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I wonder if people would recognize that feature is available
18:34:29 [jugglinmike]
jongund: It's something that I wanted when I was working on it, and that behavior is available in Windows
18:34:45 [jugglinmike]
arigilmore: I just tried it out on my phone, and I like the dragging
18:35:08 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Cool! The only aspect about bringing it into APG is testing. We can perform testing in the context of a pull request
18:35:54 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: After we get this into APG, I would like to revisit the discussion with WAI about getting it available on the entire WAI website, or really, across the entire W3C website
18:36:11 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I wonder how well it works on TR pages like specs
18:36:57 [jugglinmike]
jongund: Thanks! I'll create a pull request
18:37:29 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Code guide proposals
18:37:39 [jugglinmike]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3060
18:38:03 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I would like to get some people with the right engineering background to review and comment on the proposed changes
18:38:26 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I know jongund has already commented
18:39:48 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Our code has two goals. One: to use modern coding practices to keep up-to-date with what people expects, and two: to write in such a way to make the accessibility motivations clear
18:40:18 [jugglinmike]
OliverH: This reminds me of the coding practices on StackOverflow
18:40:22 [jugglinmike]
present+ OliverH
18:41:29 [jugglinmike]
jongund: I'm not so sure about the recommendation to use class fields. I prefer the explicitness of using the "this" keyword, but maybe I'm just set in my way
18:41:39 [jugglinmike]
OliverH: I think it's about reducing redundancy
18:42:38 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Sometimes, a little redundancy is helpful because it can be taxing to discern the relevant context from the surrounding code
18:43:12 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: But then again, I'm not writing JavaScript enough to really weigh in, here
18:43:33 [jugglinmike]
OliverH: I can research what the recommended way to do this and get back to you next week
18:44:11 [jugglinmike]
arigilmore: I agree with what's been said in the issue, leaning more toward what OliverH has been saying. I'll keep an eye on the issue and share my perspective as necessary
18:44:21 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Great, then we'll keep this on the agenda for next week
18:44:30 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Combobox arrow key behaviors
18:44:38 [jugglinmike]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3061
18:44:48 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I volunteer to take this issue on
18:45:18 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I think it's mostly editorial, at least initially. Though we need to get aligned on what we want the pattern to say
18:45:53 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: There are certain places where the combo box pattern is fairly prescriptive about what the up- and down-arrow keys do when you are at the ends of the grid
18:46:18 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: The reporter really looked deeply into this and said that the examples and the description of the examples are out-of-sync
18:46:41 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: My gut reaction is that the pattern might be too prescriptive and that there should potentially be more flexibility in the pattern
18:46:54 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I'd like to identify the core questions and then make a proposal
18:47:04 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Now, if someone else could do this sooner than me, that'd be pretty awesome
18:47:28 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Is there anybody else here who would love to work on this and figure out a way to resolve the discrepancies?
18:47:48 [jugglinmike]
jongund: I can read through it and see
18:48:23 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Actually, since you wrote some of these examples, it would be really nice if you could read and express whether or not you think it's a good idea for the examples to diverge from the pattern descriptions
18:48:52 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I think this is really about the pattern for now, so I'm going to label the issue accordingly
18:49:01 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I will assign Matt_King and jongund
18:49:09 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: And I'll place it in the "combo box" project
18:50:13 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I know the combo box pattern is used a lot. I don't know how much this aspect of the pattern would trip people up. There's nothing in the report related to the impact; it only points out the problem
18:50:25 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Anybody have any thoughts on whether this should be a P1, P2, or P3?
18:50:44 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: It's definitely not P1 because it isn't blocking anything. So it's really a choice between P2 or P3
18:51:25 [jugglinmike]
jongund: It seems fairly low-priority to me...
18:51:32 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Yeah, the only reason I'm considering P2 is the popularity of the "combo box" pattern
18:51:38 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I'm going to make it "P3" for now
18:52:22 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We'll come back to this one, probably in several weeks
18:53:51 [Jem]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+created%3A%3E2021-08-15+no%3Alabel++sort%3Aupdated-desc
18:53:54 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Here's some information about prioritization and the issue triage process: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/Issue-Triage-Process
18:54:16 [Jem]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2770
18:54:27 [jugglinmike]
Topic: More issue triage if time permits
18:54:40 [jugglinmike]
Subtopic: Disclosure Native HTML Example
18:54:45 [jugglinmike]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2770
18:55:40 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We've decided at some point that we would start including native HTML equivalents in APG, or at least talking about them
18:56:29 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We haven't really set up any tracker for this work
18:56:43 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Though I know there are some related issues...
18:57:01 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: For instance, #3046 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3046
18:57:19 [jugglinmike]
Jem: This is a really big question, as Matt_King said. How are we going to harmonize our work with HTML?
18:57:52 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We have said that we want to do this over time
18:58:24 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: After we did the site re-design, and back in our 2020 road-mapping, we said that the scope of the APG should include helping people understand how to do the same things with less ARIA, and to illustrate as well
18:58:43 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We also included in that roadmap that we would take over the "using ARIA" document and help sunset that
18:59:23 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: There are these big piles of increased scope that we could do, but that we haven't put into milestones because they're big lifts without folks available to perform them
18:59:37 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: There's a project-management piece to this, as well--mapping out which we should do first, etc
19:00:02 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: ...and understanding "how do we even fit this in?" Like, do we add something to every pattern and also additional examples
19:00:39 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I'd be interested in leading the project if there was another person to help me... We're out of time, though, so why don't we talk about this next week in a dedicated agenda item?
19:00:43 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: That sounds good
19:01:02 [jugglinmike]
Zakim, end the meeting
19:01:02 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, jongund, ariellagilmore, Jem, Oliver_Habersetzer, arigilmore, Matt_King, Siri, MarkMcCarthy, OliverH
19:01:06 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:01:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/30-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:01:13 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
19:01:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:01:14 [jugglinmike]
RRSAgent, leave
19:01:14 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items