17:00:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:27 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/25-aria-irc
17:00:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:28 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:00:37 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:00:40 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
17:00:40 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:41 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240725T130000/
17:00:41 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:00:41 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ydLizB
17:00:41 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3zVR35B
17:00:44 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:00:46 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive/TPAC planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:00:48 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Clarify spec treatment of value "undefined" (i.e., as equivalent to invalid value, initial condition for state/property usage) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2280
17:00:52 <agendabot> agenda+ -> CSS text-transform should not affect computed name https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/239
17:00:55 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Values table for aria-multiselectable/aria-current are missing "undefined" https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2176
17:00:58 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal - Interrupt and Flushing and Understandability https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1958#discussioncomment-9653385
17:01:23 <smockle> present+
17:02:11 <katez> katez has joined #aria
17:02:38 <katez> present+
17:02:48 <Rahim> present+
17:03:29 <Mario> Mario has joined #aria
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17:04:47 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:04:50 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:04:52 <sohara> sohara has joined #aria
17:04:58 <CurtBellew> present+
17:04:59 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
17:05:17 <keithamus> scribe+
17:05:25 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:05:25 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ydLizB -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:06:04 <jamesn> spectranaut_: Will handle the prettier error in the editors meeting
17:06:14 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/244
17:06:26 <Siri> Siri has joined #aria
17:06:27 <jamesn> spectranaut_: there is some discussion and a suggestion
17:06:29 <sohara> present+
17:06:48 <jamesn> bryan: should probably be discussed
17:07:11 <jamesn> spectranaut_: would be easier to discuss from a PR If there is a clear direction
17:07:21 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/553
17:07:35 <jamesn> spectranaut_: aaron provided the mappings
17:07:46 <smockle> q+
17:07:56 <jamesn> spectranaut_: might be a good first issue for someone who wants to get involved in mappings
17:08:08 <jamesn> ack smockle
17:08:16 <jamesn> smockle: Would like to take that on
17:08:22 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
17:08:51 <jamesn> Last new issue is a doc issue. Rahim assigned himself
17:09:00 <DougG> DougG has joined #aria
17:10:07 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:10:31 <StefanS> present+
17:11:00 <jamesn> <discussion of respec>
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17:11:06 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:11:06 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3zVR35B -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:06 <alisonmaher> present+
17:11:14 <keithamus> present+
17:11:23 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2293
17:11:45 <jamesn> spectranaut_: would like reviews - is editorial and a good small issue to review
17:12:13 <jamesn> Rahim & Curt volunteer to review
17:12:24 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2292
17:13:18 <jamesn> scott: follow on to not using the title attribute for name prohibited. This required to create a new grouping in the HTML-AAM Acc namre computation
17:13:38 <jamesn> scott: added a prohibited name section and some revisions to other sections
17:15:59 <jamesn> scott: would like implementors to push ahead with non-landmark footer/header roles before adding those to the prohibitied section
17:16:09 <jamesn> spectranaut_: adding Rahim
17:16:22 <jamesn> scott: suggest aaron
17:17:11 <jamesn> spectranaut_: will result in implementation changes so should ask implementors
17:17:26 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2291
17:17:43 <Siri> Present+
17:18:56 <jamesn> spectranaut_: added reviewers
17:19:21 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2290
17:21:58 <jamesn> OliverH: clickable can be added to anything
17:22:11 <jamesn> spectranaut_: this is triage so we're not opening that now
17:23:50 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:23:50 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:03 <jamesn> spectranaut_: no new ones
17:24:08 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
17:24:08 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:24:09 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:24:09 <Zakim> 4. -> Deep Dive/TPAC planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:24:11 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:24:11 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive/TPAC planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:49 <jamesn> spectranaut_: lets go through the list and see if we still need to deep dive them
17:25:20 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2162
17:25:29 <jamesn> spectranaut_: lots of discussion
17:25:39 <jamesn> giacomo-petri: still needs discussion
17:26:02 <jamesn> giacomo-petri: will try to organize to see if we can discuss during TPAC
17:26:18 <keithamus> jamesn: can we F2F candidate this one?
17:26:34 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2147
17:27:25 <jamesn> spectranaut_: are folks interested in discussing this
17:27:40 <jamesn> sarah: is the topic flowto or how to make flowcharts work
17:27:57 <jamesn> scott: flowto will not really solve that problem
17:28:08 <jamesn> sarah: a bunch of work needs to be done up front
17:28:26 <jamesn> spectranaut_: lets remove deep dive issue as no one is pushing it forward
17:28:38 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2137
17:29:07 <jamesn> remove deep dive from this
17:29:31 <jamesn> also remove deep dive from https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/506
17:29:40 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1951
17:29:49 <jamesn> remove this too
17:30:00 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/95
17:33:37 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:33:37 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Clarify spec treatment of value "undefined" (i.e., as equivalent to invalid value, initial condition for state/property usage)
17:33:39 <Zakim> ... https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2280 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:34:28 <jamesn> Rahim: link to deep dive minutes
17:34:41 <jamesn> Rahim: in the issue - a couple of specifics here
17:34:53 <jamesn> Rahim: Is an invalid value treated the same thing as an undefined value?
17:35:02 <jamesn> Rahim: Should the spec explicitly state that the undefined value/string is not an initial condition for authors to use (e.g., aria-expanded="undefined") in expectation of a downstream ARIA state change?
17:35:21 <keithamus> q+
17:35:34 <jamesn> spectranaut_: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2280#issuecomment-2250963784
17:36:01 <jamesn> spectranaut_: is an invalid string the same as undefined
17:36:48 <jamesn> spectranaut_: what does undefined mean for a switch?
17:37:07 <jamesn> spectranaut_: that is the only place invalid is discussed
17:37:37 <jamesn> keithamus: a little confused - are we talking about "undefined" or the JS primitive of undefined?
17:37:56 <jamesn> keithamus: is this IDL reflections or HTML attributes
17:38:02 <jamesn> Rahim: I think both
17:38:15 <jamesn> Rahim: multiple ways to set these things
17:38:45 <jamesn> keithamus: there is no undefined primitive in HTML - using setAttribute always a string
17:38:54 <jamesn> IDL is subtly different
17:39:08 <jamesn> keithamus: how the HTML spec deals with enumerated attributes
17:39:24 <sohara> q+
17:40:06 <jamesn> ack keithamus
17:40:26 <jamesn> Rahim: there is no clarity about the invalid value default and missing value default
17:40:37 <jamesn> keithamus: the attribute reflection rules around IDL mapping
17:41:49 <jamesn> keithamus: effectively 1110 needs a bit of a cleanup of the various IDLs - once we go through each attribute then can map out the invalid and missing states. The DOM string IDL reflection then becomes valid
17:42:07 <jamesn> Rahim: undefined value and string are not the same thing
17:42:13 <jamesn> ack sohara
17:42:15 <spectranaut_> ack sohara
17:42:35 <jamesn> sohara: that part of the spec was written before IDL existed for aria
17:42:47 <keithamus> q+
17:43:14 <jamesn> sohara: we should just know that undefined as a string couldn't be that
17:43:45 <spectranaut_> ack keithamus
17:43:49 <jamesn> sohara: we need to investigate what browsers are doing with the undefined string right now
17:43:52 <sarah> q+
17:44:06 <spectranaut_> ack sarah
17:44:07 <jamesn> keithamus: undefined as an attribute maps to something useful in aria?
17:44:18 <jamesn> sarah: have done the investigation
17:44:37 <jamesn> sarah: there are now a bunch of issues but will find it
17:44:53 <jamesn> sarah: the string undefined is not being treated as the value undefined
17:45:21 <jamesn> qv?
17:45:34 <smockle> q+
17:45:47 <jamesn> sohara: does the undefined string do anything useful in aria?
17:45:58 <jamesn> sohara: noticed that it at least primed the browser
17:46:29 <jamesn> sohara: if i change the state of a button with expanded undefined then the browser would expose the state change
17:46:41 <keithamus> q+
17:47:06 <jamesn> sohara: very corner case where found it actually had some implementation practicallity
17:47:13 <spectranaut_> ack smockle
17:47:13 <Rahim> q+
17:47:30 <smockle> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2172#discussion_r1596119911
17:47:35 <smockle> https://jsfiddle.net/pobwvgs9/
17:47:36 <sarah> q+
17:47:59 <jamesn> smockle: undefined behaviour in different browsers
17:48:00 <spectranaut_> ack keithamus
17:48:05 <sarah> keithamus you're right, setAttribute + undefined does set the string 'undefined' for the aria-* attributes I tested, I think I was mixing it up with IDL reflection
17:48:52 <jamesn> keithamus: undefined to prime the browser. Browsers have a concept if something exists on a node. It is reasonable to put that in the bucket of these are invalid states. You could probably prime the browser with foo
17:49:00 <spectranaut_> ack Rahim
17:49:03 <sarah> i.e. el.setAttribute('aria-expanded', undefined) results in <el aria-expanded="undefined">, and el.ariaExpanded = undefined not
17:49:51 <jamesn> Rahim: wanted to add that a confusion was it wasn't clear how it was being specificied - markup vs setAttribute vs IDL - authors may expect the same behaviour
17:50:12 <jamesn> keithamus: IDL is the special case as JS has a concept of undefined but HTMl doesn't
17:50:32 <jamesn> keithamus: assumes strings and puts in the quotes for you
17:50:47 <jamesn> keithamus: HTML and setAttribute assume stringzs
17:51:10 <jamesn> keithamus: if you set null in IDL will have a missing value
17:51:56 <jamesn> Rahim: HTML reflection is much clearer
17:52:53 <jamesn> keithamus: HTML IDL reflections are very clear. The ARIA mixin
17:53:14 <jamesn> keithamus: TLDR we need to define missing and invalid value defaults for each of the attributes
17:53:30 <spectranaut_> ack sarah
17:53:37 <jamesn> keithamus: we may need to define a custom algorithm for some of the IDL mappings
17:54:01 <jamesn> sarah: string vs value undefined - not seeing any difference in actual mapped APIs
17:54:55 <jamesn> sarah: not seeing any different for invalid value vs undefined
17:55:12 <jamesn> spectranaut_: are we getting closer to an answer
17:55:51 <jamesn> sarah: agree with keith that the string is an invalid value not a missing value
17:56:16 <Rahim> Keith and I were assigned this: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2281
17:56:37 <jamesn> Rahim: believe this will cover the issue we are discussing
17:57:09 <jamesn> keithamus: going to be difficult to achieve due to existing code which may depend on this behaviour
17:57:32 <jamesn> spectranaut_: will mark this as a duplicate of 2281
17:57:54 <jamesn> q+
17:58:25 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
17:58:49 <spectranaut_> jamesn: it sounds like a  use case that there might be errors from validators on
17:59:15 <jamesn> jamesn: invalid values would fail validators for the priming use case
17:59:41 <jamesn> q+
18:00:34 <spectranaut_> jamesn: suggests specing it
18:00:46 <OliverH> OliverH has joined #aria
18:00:51 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
18:00:59 <jamesn> zakim, end meeting
18:00:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been smockle, katez, Rahim, giacomo-petri, CurtBellew, sohara, StefanS, alisonmaher, keithamus, Siri
18:01:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:01:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/25-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:10 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jamesn; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:01:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria