18:04:28 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:04:32 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/23-aria-apg-irc 18:04:35 rrsagent, make log public 18:04:46 Zakim, start the meeting 18:04:46 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:04:48 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:05:59 present+ 18:06:12 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:06:46 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:07:11 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force Weekly Teleconference 18:07:15 present+ jugglinmike 18:07:19 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:07:22 present+ CurtBellew 18:07:31 present+ jongund 18:07:35 present+ Matt_King 18:08:32 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:08:39 Matt_King: Next meeting: July 30 18:08:47 Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:09:33 present+ 18:09:51 Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as planned 18:09:56 Topic: Publication planning 18:10:08 Matt_King: Next publication will be 2 weeks from today, August 6 18:10:23 Matt_King: Publication planning 18:10:44 Matt_King: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/32 18:11:42 Matt_King: Pending final review: Feature: Search for patterns, toggle grid/list view by stalgiag · Pull Request #3043 · w3c/aria-practices https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3043 18:11:59 Matt_King: Pending fix to one review finding: PR 3041: All Example Pages: Add source copy instructions and CodePen button to HTML source section by ariellalgilmore https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3041 18:13:09 Matt_King: CurtBellew spotted a problem, and I was able to reproduce it. ariellalgilmore commented just 3 hours ago; it sounds like the problem may have been an issue with the preview, specifically. 18:13:14 Matt_King: This may be ready, after all 18:13:29 CurtBellew: I can take another look in light of ariellalgilmore's latest comment 18:14:12 Matt_King: The only other item is in regards to high-contrast; we have a separate agenda item dedicated to that 18:14:19 Topic: Regression test fix 18:14:31 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3059 18:15:06 howard-e: This is a change related to the viewport with a specific test 18:15:27 howard-e: It aligns the test with others in the suite 18:15:45 howard-e: previously, there was some flakiness--perhaps because the click was happening while scrolling was in progress 18:16:35 howard-e: I could reproduce the flakiness locally with the previous version, but I couldn't reproduce it locally with this version 18:16:48 jongund: I'm looking at the code right now, and it looks good to me 18:17:28 jongund: I'll verify the fix locally and submit a review 18:17:55 Matt_King: Thank you! 18:18:15 s/you/you, jongund and howard-e/ 18:18:27 Topic: Tablist naming guidance 18:18:34 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2319#issuecomment-2216737574 18:19:45 Matt_King: the "tabs" pattern suggests that a tab list should have an accessible name 18:19:54 Matt_King: Name is not required for tab list by the ARIA specification 18:20:07 Matt_King: ...so the current language is probably not appropriate because it sort of implies that a name is required 18:20:30 Matt_King: We say that the name is recommended for tab list. I actually think that's a good idea 18:21:02 Matt_King: We express the importance of naming with four different levels: required, recommended, discretionary, and "do not name" 18:21:14 Jem has joined #aria-apg 18:21:15 Matt_King: This one, for tab list, we currently have as "recommended" 18:21:28 Matt_King: There's some argument here that it should instead be "discretionary" and "do not name" 18:21:52 Matt_King: But if we look at the use-cases we have in the APG, there is no visible name and a accessible name provides clear benefit 18:22:14 Matt_King: So, in my mind, that justifies either "recommended" or "discretionary" 18:23:19 jongund: Do screen readers consider a grouping label, like if you go into a tab list, does it read the name? 18:23:34 Matt_King: Well, they should, and it's something we can test in ARIA-AT 18:24:55 Matt_King: in the carousel JAWS doesn't say "tab list" which isn't great (although it does tell you when you're on a tab) 18:25:21 jongund: I think that's an even stronger reason to recommend it--there's a known user benefit 18:27:38 Matt_King: If there *is* a visual label, then there should be a screen reader label. If there's *not* a visual label, then at least one person in this issue was saying that there shouldn't be a screen reader label 18:27:56 Matt_King: ...though I still think there's benefit to a screen reader label in cases like the carousel 18:28:21 Matt_King: But this shouldn't be about my opinions. Do you use this pattern much in your products, CurtBellew? 18:28:52 CurtBellew: I advise a name 18:29:14 jongund: I think one thing we may want to consider is whether there is a visible label for the tab list. That seems to be a stronger argument 18:29:30 jongund: If there is a visible label, that's an indication that it should be used in this particular case 18:29:40 CurtBellew: As in referencing it via "labeledby"? 18:29:50 jongund: yeah, that would be the preferred way 18:30:13 Matt_King: So if there is no visual label, should it still be recommended to provide an accessible name to the tab list? 18:30:49 jongund: If there are multiple tab lists on the page, then you might not recognize that you've moved between the two unless a name is used 18:31:54 Matt_King: I have a difficult time thinking about a scenario where there's no benefit at all 18:32:25 jongund: I think it would be useful to point out that it's especially useful when there's no visual labels or when there's multiple tab lists on the page 18:35:01 Matt_King: We could add a phrase like, "especially when multiple tab lists are present"; but I think it's always helpful 18:35:27 Matt_King: Maybe we can write a pull request that makes it more clearly "recommended" rather than vaguely suggesting that it's required 18:35:46 Matt_King: I think it appears in multiple places, so we'll have to take care to search the APG for where it needs to be changed 18:36:02 Topic: Guidance for other high contrast media queries 18:36:12 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2991 18:36:22 jongund: There are three main ways for users to adjust the colors of rendered content, with two of the ways detectable by the author. Our patterns only demonstrate the use of the "forced-colors” media query which right now is only implemented on the browsers for the Windows 10/11 operating systems. We don't have any examples using the “prefers-contrast" or “prefers-color-theme” CSS media selectors. Let's discuss guidance fo 18:36:22 r “prefers-contrast” and “prefers-color-theme”. 18:36:38 jongund: It was kind of eye-opening for me to look at all these different things in depth 18:36:59 jongund: The operating system features that are available and how they impact what authors can actually detect 18:37:07 arigilmore has joined #aria-apg 18:37:23 jongund: The big thing that all OSes have is "invert colors"; this takes all the RGB values and subtracts them from 255 18:38:00 jongund: On Apple, it's just a visual effect--it doesn't impact the computed color in the browser, for example 18:38:09 jongund: I don't know how it works in Windows 18:38:23 jongund: The next one is contrast. There's dark-screen mode and light-screen mode 18:38:42 jongund: There's a media query for this: prefers-color-scheme with values "dark" or "light" 18:39:17 jongund: It seems to be geared toward people who are working at night or low-visibility settings 18:39:40 Matt_King: If a user prefers dark, then a web page doesn't have to do anything special 18:40:09 jongund: Right. The chrome of the browser changes, but the pages themselves don't change unless the author has defined a media query for it 18:40:46 Matt_King: I don't know for sure, on Facebook for instance, whether the dark mode has to be turned on in Facebook or if it has a media query 18:41:01 jongund: Under "accessibility", there's something called "increased contrast" 18:41:08 jongund: This one's a little more buried 18:41:24 jongund: It's a toggle which, when enabled, sets a media query for "prefers-contrast" with the value "more" 18:41:48 jongund: Again, that changes how the browser chrome appears, but it doesn't impact the rendered content (unless the author has defined a media query) 18:42:13 jongund: Windows has a unique feature called "contrast themes"--at least 3 or 4 themes that users can select 18:42:26 jongund: Those actually change the web content 18:42:53 jongund: First: should we be looking at these other media queries and supporting them? 18:43:12 jongund: Second: what is our definition of support when they are not available across platform? 18:43:46 jongund: We have a lot of information about how to use "force-colors" and it's still useful, but I don't know if we have to be clear about whether its universally useful 18:43:57 Matt_King: So in the examples that we have that are currently supporting high-contrast... 18:44:24 jongund: It really only makes a difference if you're using Windows. There's no setting on a Mac that would change the CSS media query "force-colors" 18:44:55 jongund: I don't think it's considered an accessibility feature; it's usually in "display options" or "appearance", not in the accessibility section 18:45:27 jongund: If we're going to call it out, we might acknowledge that this feature is not necessarily organized alongside accessibility features 18:47:58 s/ariellalgilmore/ariellagilmore/g 18:49:09 Matt_King: At the APG, we want to help web authors support people with disabilities. APG is mostly focused on keyboard and assistive technology, but I think this is an important topic that's not addressed elsewhere 18:49:21 Matt_King: We want to give people guidance on the best way to support people using color 18:49:41 Matt_King: But based on what you're saying jongund, it doesn't appear as if there is a single approach that always works on all platforms 18:50:01 Matt_King: "prefers contrast" is a toggle, right? 18:50:21 jongund: Yes; but that makes me wonder about WCAG conformance 18:50:32 jongund: It's present in all the platforms 18:50:52 Matt_King: What does it mean to support it? If you do the query and you find out that the value is set to "more", what does the author need to do? 18:51:12 jongund: The only thing I could think of on the first level is that any page now needs to meet WCAG "AAA" requirements 18:51:46 jongund: It only signals to authors that, "hey, this person prefers high contrast" 18:51:55 jongund: Maybe it should be taken as "hey, you should do something about that" 18:52:16 CurtBellew: I have not come across this media query. We have thousands of products, but I haven't come across it, personally 18:52:32 Matt_King: arigilmore, do you know if Carbon does anything with this media query, "prefers contrast"? 18:52:37 arigilmore: No, I don't believe so 18:52:58 Matt_King: It's interesting that the setting exists, that there's a media query for it, but I wonder if anyone's actually doing anything with it 18:53:36 Matt_King: It seems like it would be important to include this, but it also seems like we want to suggest what to do with it. But then, it almost seems like the entire website needs to model appropriate behavior 18:53:56 Matt_King: And then I wonder, what's appropriate in this case? 18:54:22 jongund: My guess is that people are just relying on "invert color" because that just means that a light color scheme now becomes a dark color scheme 18:54:47 Matt_King: I don't think that you would want to invert colors if "prefers contrast" is set to "more". That could be pretty shocking 18:54:57 Matt_King: The operating systems don't behave that way, after all 18:55:44 Matt_King: You've raised a good set of questions, jongund, but it doesn't seem that anybody here has any concrete knowledge about what to do 18:55:58 Matt_King: It makes me wonder about how the folks in the CSS working group managed to get this added 18:56:38 jongund: These are features in operating systems that they put into CSS 18:58:01 Matt_King: Maybe we could ask people like James Craig and Scott O'Hara. "So you have these features in the operating system..." Well, I wonder if sites like apple.com or microsoft.com are responsive to those systems. We could ask people at Apple and Microsoft about what their operating system does in response to those settings 18:58:38 Matt_King: jongund, could you raise a specific issue just for the "prefers contrast" media query so that we can get a discussion going with folks from Apple and Microsoft and learn how web authors should use them? 18:58:57 Matt_King: As for "prefers color theme", that seems really straight forward 18:59:10 Matt_King: I guess you need to build infrastructure to support dark mode... 18:59:34 jongund: The apple website does not respond to dark mode or increased contrast, but the macOS operating system does 18:59:43 Matt_King: So maybe the answer is to be silent on these things... 19:00:09 Matt_King: Lets raise an issue for each specific media query and tie it back to this first issue for developing guidance for high-contrast 19:00:53 jongund: Got it. Will do 19:01:07 Zakim, end the meeting 19:01:07 As of this point the attendees have been howard-e, jugglinmike, CurtBellew, jongund, Matt_King 19:01:09 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:01:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/23-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:01:18 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:01:18 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:01:20 RRSAgent, leave 19:01:20 I see no action items