12:59:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:59:38 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-matf-irc
12:59:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:59:39 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:59:44 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF July 17, 2024
12:59:44 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:59:49 <JJ> Meeting: MATF July 17, 2024
13:00:02 <JJ> agenda+ Guidance proposal
13:00:06 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A
13:00:10 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.2 Audio Control - Level A
13:00:15 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum) - Level AA
13:00:20 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.5 Images of Text - Level AA
13:01:02 <audrey> audrey has joined #matf
13:01:16 <JJ> present+
13:01:28 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
13:01:33 <quintinb> present+
13:01:34 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:01:41 <JJ> regrets+ Julian
13:01:43 <Jamie> present+
13:01:50 <Illai> Illai has joined #matf
13:01:51 <JJ> regrets+ JoeHumbert
13:01:57 <Aashutosh> Aashutosh has joined #matf
13:02:01 <JJ> regrets+ AlainVagner
13:02:02 <Illai> present+
13:02:04 <Aashutosh> present+
13:02:05 <audrey> present+
13:03:02 <Karla> Karla has joined #matf
13:04:36 <Devanshu> Devanshu has joined #matf
13:05:10 <JJ> agenda?
13:05:29 <Devanshu> present+
13:05:57 <Karla> > present+
13:06:04 <Karla> present+
13:07:36 <JJ> Scribe: quintinb
13:07:42 <quintinb> Whoop
13:07:46 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #matf
13:07:46 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:07:46 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Guidance proposal -- taken up [from JJ]
13:07:52 <Detlev> present+
13:08:29 <quintinb> JJ: Not much progress. Jamie made some suggestions: Making issues for all SC so that we don't create them after the meeting
13:08:32 <quintinb> +1
13:08:47 <Illai> +1
13:08:58 <quintinb> q+
13:09:03 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:09:21 <Mick> Mick has joined #MATF
13:09:36 <quintinb> quinitnb: allows for async working and contribution on the issues
13:09:49 <Mick> present+
13:09:51 <quintinb> wow misspelled my own name there
13:10:34 <quintinb> JJ: Will start grouping the discussions so that it's in one place
13:11:08 <quintinb> +1
13:11:58 <Tori> Tori has joined #matf
13:12:23 <quintinb> Jamie: Maybe have some folks take separate ownership of issues - assigning specific people to an issue to take charge of first draft content. Gathering relevant data etc
13:12:35 <Tori> Big +1 to what Jamie is saying. It would help me contribute if I could focus (and focus on what I'm most knowledgeable about too).
13:13:04 <audrey> +1
13:13:06 <quintinb> Jamie: This would allow groups to meet beyond the one meeting
13:13:10 <Karla> +1
13:14:19 <Illai> +1
13:15:07 <quintinb> JJ: Would like a co-facilitator to help with all the management of this
13:15:15 <Tori> I can help with facilitating
13:15:29 <quintinb> JJ: Mostly about organising the meetings
13:16:04 <Tori> I can never scribe because of my AT, but facilitation is definitely something I can do now that I'm more available.
13:16:31 <Jamie> q+
13:16:41 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:16:43 <quintinb> No worries Tori
13:17:14 <quintinb> Jamie: Should we be making action items for each of the SC's
13:18:29 <Jamie4> Jamie4 has joined #matf
13:18:30 <quintinb> JJ: There are many ways (like Github's tools) that we make for speeding up everything and be less reliant on this meeting
13:18:42 <Jamie4> present+
13:19:02 <github-bot> github-bot has joined #matf
13:19:05 <Jamie4> I was kicked off
13:19:31 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:19:31 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A -- taken up [from JJ]
13:19:33 <quintinb> Could also be VPN's
13:21:10 <quintinb> JJ: How might apps be different? Best practice?
13:21:34 <Tori> Tori has joined #matf
13:22:00 <Tori> q+
13:22:18 <quintinb> Aashutosh: Talking about the use of textures
13:22:24 <JJ> ack Tori
13:23:24 <quintinb> Tori: We may want to be careful around visualisation - the colorblind folks hated textures. We should veer away from being too prescriptive, and allow many mechanisms for visualisation and communication
13:23:59 <quintinb> Also Android has 0 libraries for data-vis - it's all bespoke at the moment
13:24:19 <quintinb> SongBird Charts was good back in the day, but it's old now
13:24:27 <Tori> HighCharts is the lead in data viz now
13:24:31 <quintinb> The car has no wheels!
13:24:34 <Detlev> q+
13:24:39 <Tori> No clue about their mobile capabilities
13:24:53 <quintinb> Thanks Tori, will check them out
13:25:06 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:25:35 <quintinb> Detlev: We want to allow people to have many mechanisms for solving this problem
13:25:36 <quintinb> +1
13:26:34 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:26:40 <Jamie> present+
13:27:00 <Jamie> +1 to Tori, not adding specifications outside of WCAG text for this round of MATF documentation
13:27:07 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:27:07 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 1.4.2 Audio Control - Level A -- taken up [from JJ]
13:27:57 <quintinb> Independent from system volume? Super weird
13:28:36 <quintinb> q+
13:28:40 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:30:23 <Mick> I would say we should follow the current WCAG structure - otherwise we could rewrite a lot of the success criteria.
13:30:51 <quintinb> JJ; There is some overlap, but this is under perceivable and focused specifically on audio, as opposed to operable and more general
13:31:02 <quintinb> +1 Mick
13:31:15 <Jamie> +1 to Mick
13:31:34 <quintinb> JJ: What about Splash screens?
13:31:43 <Tori> I see (hear) it on spa and salon websites a lot still in the US
13:32:08 <Tori> Chromium and other browsers have the ability to mute now, but that would fall under UAAG IMO
13:32:27 <Jamie> q+
13:32:37 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:32:58 <Tori> q+
13:33:00 <quintinb> Jamie: Do we need to discuss this, what do we need to change
13:33:02 <quintinb> Q+
13:33:24 <JJ> ack Tori
13:34:13 <quintinb> Tori: Building on what Jamie said - a lot of these are general - these are the areas that are fairly agnostic
13:34:30 <Jamie> +1 to Tori,, and we need an actionable item from Agendum 2
13:34:33 <quintinb> JJ agrees
13:34:59 <Jamie> q+
13:35:08 <JJ> q?
13:35:13 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:36:25 <quintinb> I do feel that since phones have a dedicated rocker for volume that it should respect the user settings
13:36:54 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:37:39 <quintinb> Jamie: Can we add action items for agenda 1 + 2 to take ownership for 1.4.1 and 1.4.2?
13:37:53 <JJ> ACTION: Create subgroup to discuss 1.4.1 and 1.4.2 within the Github repo
13:38:28 <JJ> move to previous agendum
13:39:48 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:39:48 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum) - Level AA -- taken up [from JJ]
13:41:09 <quintinb> JJ: Raises the point about large text measurements
13:42:02 <Jamie> +1 to Illai
13:42:04 <Aashutosh> Q+
13:42:43 <Illai> Thank you. I missed it
13:43:11 <quintinb> +1 to Illai comment on sizing - I like what the Evinced MCAG guidelines did in reducing to a standard measurement
13:43:56 <quintinb> It would be nice if we knew what minimum text size is...
13:44:06 <Mick> Regarding the large text - with screen glare and viewport size i think there's an argument to require all text to meet 4.5:1 contrast. Also lot of time testers won't have access to native code in my experience when testing and as a result there's an inability to accurately determine the font size of text in native applications.
13:44:25 <quintinb> JJ digs to the notes - perhaps we can make this more discoverable?
13:44:58 <quintinb> JJ points out SP for android text
13:44:58 <Jamie> +1 to mick and quintinb
13:45:06 <Jamie> re minimum text size
13:45:15 <Detlev> For what it's worth, I have tried to formulate a way of assessing whether text falls under "large text" based on screenshots and measurements of font height (it's in German so you would have to get this translated by your browser)
13:45:15 <Detlev> https://bitvtest.de/pruefschritt/bitv-20-app/bitv-20-app-11-1-4-3-kontrast-minimum#_3_3_berechnung_der_schriftgr%C3%B6%C3%9Fe_auf_screenshots )
13:45:36 <quintinb> There are places where a reference to some kind of tool would be useful (e.g. input SP size)
13:45:41 <Jamie> Detlev can you summarize in a sentence?
13:45:50 <Aashutosh> +1 to Mick
13:46:52 <Tori> +1 to what JJ is saying about real color vs. coded color and size of text
13:46:52 <Detlev> You take a screenshot, load into something like Photoshop take into account the physical to CSS pixel ratio, measure text height...
13:47:30 <quintinb> JJ: 2 issues - 1. When no source access - testing is difficult 2. Determine the font size (also source problem)
13:47:40 <Jamie> q+
13:48:11 <JJ> q?
13:48:17 <JJ> ack Aashutosh
13:48:28 <Detlev> @Jamie does that help?
13:49:11 <Detlev> APCA is not current WCAG guidance...
13:49:26 <quintinb> Aashutosh: Since WCAG is rated for desktops and phones live in the wild, should we not reconsider contrast. There are also different mechanisms for measuring contrast, should we use things like APCA (I might have missed this)
13:50:17 <quintinb> JJ: APCA is not relevant for 2.2 at the moment, but it has utility
13:50:18 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:50:58 <Aashutosh> quintinb the question was two parts. 1. should the contrast ratio be stricter for the apps, since the mobiles can be taken outdoors in brighter sunlight and under direct glare.  2nd. should we use APCA over traditional contrast
13:51:01 <quintinb> Jamie: Should we have SC specifically for conditions where source access is not possible
13:51:02 <JJ> ACTION: How to deal with source code access vs no-source code access when testing
13:51:16 <quintinb> Thanks Aashutosh - trying to keep up and actually listen!
13:52:05 <quintinb> q+
13:52:11 <quintinb> q-
13:52:23 <quintinb> I had a bad suggestion lol
13:53:20 <quintinb> JJ: Can we expect testers to have access to tools - there are many hurdles to that (e.g. platform / cost)
13:54:37 <quintinb> I agree with Aashutosh to be honest  - impact could be fairly big
13:54:50 <Mick> Regarding requirements around access to source code or not - I think it's so important the mapping we provide for native mobile are testable given how they are pointed to by legislation. And i think a lot of testers unfortunately just don't have access to code and would be my recommendation on how we measure what is testable.
13:55:03 <Jamie> +1 to mick
13:55:22 <quintinb> +1 Mick - text should be a "reasonable" size - but what that means I don't know
13:55:45 <Jamie> +1 to emphasize what is testable
13:56:29 <quintinb> JJ: Suggest 1.4.5 to the next meeting
13:56:31 <quintinb> +1
13:57:08 <quintinb> JJ: Are there any other issues we should talk about with our time left?
13:57:13 <JJ> agenda?
13:57:30 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:57:30 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- 1.4.5 Images of Text - Level AA -- taken up [from JJ]
13:57:31 <Jamie> quiet group
13:57:36 <JJ> agenda- 5
13:57:37 <Detlev> q+
13:57:43 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:58:16 <JJ> agenda+ Closing
13:58:18 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:58:18 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Closing -- taken up [from JJ]
13:58:33 <quintinb> Detlev: When we pick up contrast - there are some native elements that don't meet requirements - probably best for 1.4.11
13:59:10 <quintinb> JJ: EN301549 has an issue - note on Github
13:59:47 <quintinb> 2.4.2
13:59:48 <Jamie> proposal: quintinb as first volunteer for 1.4.1 Audio Control Github issue
14:00:11 <Mick> Apologies I'm in noisy environment and can't speak up but regarding sub groups - I think it's a good idea to break out the success criteria that are least likely to have any variations and get a group vote on them before a sub-group takes over, would be a good first step.
14:00:12 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/9#issuecomment-2232888789
14:00:29 <Jamie> (get the ball rolling...?) and Aashutosh first volunteer for 1.4.3 contrast
14:00:46 <Jamie> and Mick as well ?
14:01:12 <Aashutosh> Jamie yes. I dont know how to officially test this, but I am excited
14:01:16 <Mick> sure
14:01:58 <Jamie> quintinb I'd think up to the subgroup members based on timing and AT needs
14:02:15 <quintinb> I don't mind - just need some details about how to facilitate the groups and meetings within there - also gathering the kittens who are interested in chatting about it
14:03:40 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:03:40 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been JJ, quintinb, Jamie, Illai, Aashutosh, audrey, Devanshu, Karla, Detlev, Mick
14:03:50 <JJ> present+ Tori
14:04:59 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:05:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:05:45 <Jamie> Jamie has left #matf
14:06:15 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:06:15 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-matf-actions.rdf :
14:06:15 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Create subgroup to discuss 1.4.1 and 1.4.2 within the Github repo [1]
14:06:15 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-matf-irc#T13-37-53
14:06:15 <RRSAgent> ACTION: How to deal with source code access vs no-source code access when testing [2]
14:06:15 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-matf-irc#T13-51-02